MU Head Coach dilemma. Great groan or gone

[f/k/a humanlung]

They are dismissing NCAA tournament success as the be all end all when judging overall success. Just as I did.

They are not dismissing the lack of NCAA tournament success as unfair criticism, only that it not be given undue consideration when weighing the positive and negative aspects of WoJos tenure.

They are not alone in saying it's a crapshoot, they are citing top coaches who have stated as much. And there is some logic to that statement.  Considering that basketball can be unpredictable in general, and then you match up two unfamiliar teams in an unfamiliar arena, strange things can happen, and often do. Crapshoot = unpredictability = throw out the percentages. Ask Virginia.

As far as next year, WTAF??? Have you already given up on this year???
Some people focus so much on Wojo they forget.... So I'll remind you.
Markus is till here, Sacar is still here, Brendan is still here, Koby is still here, Theo is still here, Ed is still here, Greg is still here, Jamal is still here, Jayce is still here, Symir is still here, and lest we not forget...... Wojo is still here

Next year will take care of itself, and hopefully Wojo will still be here.

Mike Deane, as covered on this board, got canned for lowering expectations for reaching the NCAAs.  Failure once you get there isn't much better.

And all those players you mentioned...all of them are under-prepared and suffer from the impact of their coach being outmaneuvered in almost every game they play in.  It is a shame that much talent is being wasted by an inflexible coach.

[f/k/a humanlung]

Of course it's a crap shoot.  I love March Madness, but there is lots of luck and circumstance involved.  I have seen lots of fan bases complain that their incoming coach has a lousy tournament record - ignoring the fact that his teams had to play high seeds every year.  Loyola had a magical run, and won its first three games with late heroics.  If they lose the first game, their coach is just a guy who cannot win in the tournament.  A couple years ago, Northwestern got its first ever bid and won its first game.  Then they lost to the eventual runner-up on a disputed call.  If they win that one, Collins is the guy who not only got them to the tournament but to the Sweet Sixteen in their first appearance.  But instead, they are a footnote, a brief pleasant memory. 

So Wojo has not won any tournament games yet.  BFD.  Lots of coaches do not for a while, and losses to tournament quality teams in the regular season is not a shock or the end of the world.  And you remember Dean Smith?  He kept getting to the Final Four and could never win the big one.  The guy was way overrated.

I respectfully disagree.  Our average margin of loss in the NCAAs under Wojo is 19 points.  That is not a bad luck margin.  That is not a weird circumstance margin. That is not a last-second heroics margin.  That is not a disputed call margin.  And last year, it certainly was not a lower seed margin. 

What it is, is non-competitive.  And that is the problem.

Using Dean Smith as an example is a stretch.  Getting to the Final Four repeatedly and Wojo not being able to complete in Round 1...miles and miles apart.

[WhoaJoe2020]

Dinger....From what I've gathered you seem fairly reasonable so I believe you are simply missing the point.

Extreme NoJos ONE piece of historically verifiable evidence that Wojo has done nothing in 5 years is his lack of success in post season play( though he did win 2 NIT games). Extreme NoJos are the ones citing that ONE piece of evidence as PROOF WoJo sucks and needs to go. The onus is on them. They opened themselves up to attack by advancing their obviously biased opinion, and now they have to defend it. I won't apologize for calling BS on their unbalanced evaluation of Wojo.

When others point out MANY historically verifiable pieces of evidence showing Wojos steadily increasing level of success, extreme NoJos dismiss ALL of that evidence out of hand and go right back to his lack of post season success. It's all they've got.

They also dismiss injuries to key players as insignificant when assessing Wojos success. Not surprising, as injuries are another thing that is historically verifiable. The funny thing is, injuries are often cited as a valid reason when better teams suffer an upset or bad loss.

The whole point being, extreme NoNos totally dismiss MANY of Wojos verifiable positive points and base their argument on ONE verifiable negative point. The people pointing out the apparent bias in the way extreme NoJos evaluate Wojo are not dismissing lack of post season success, they're dismissing the notion that ONE negative facts should COMPLETELY outweigh MANY positive facts.

Failing to support their argument based solely on the FACTS the extreme NoJos have taken the debate into the weeds, while employing similar tactics. They  magnify bad losses while minimizing big wins. They magnify other coaches success while minimizing Wojos. They criticize Wojo for lack of in game adjustments, player usage, defensive philosophy, offensive philosophy , situational strategies, etc, etc, in a loss, but fail to compliment Wojo for the same things in a win.  Are you starting to see a pattern here?

The reason it's fair to dismiss the above mentioned items when assessing Wojos performance to date, is because they are largely subjective and often apples to oranges.

I am not a Wojo zealot, I simply reject the extreme NoJos biased(IMHO) evaluating system when it comes to Wojo.

[Elonsmusk]

Dinger....From what I've gathered you seem fairly reasonable so I believe you are simply missing the point.

Extreme NoJos ONE piece of historically verifiable evidence that Wojo has done nothing in 5 years is his lack of success in post season play( though he did win 2 NIT games). Extreme NoJos are the ones citing that ONE piece of evidence as PROOF WoJo sucks and needs to go. The onus is on them. They opened themselves up to attack by advancing their obviously biased opinion, and now they have to defend it. I won't apologize for calling BS on their unbalanced evaluation of Wojo.

When others point out MANY historically verifiable pieces of evidence showing Wojos steadily increasing level of success, extreme NoJos dismiss ALL of that evidence out of hand and go right back to his lack of post season success. It's all they've got.

They also dismiss injuries to key players as insignificant when assessing Wojos success. Not surprising, as injuries are another thing that is historically verifiable. The funny thing is, injuries are often cited as a valid reason when better teams suffer an upset or bad loss.

The whole point being, NoJos totally dismiss MANY of Wojos verifiable positive points and base their argument on ONE verifiable negative point. The people pointing out the apparent bias in the way extreme NoJos evaluate Wojo are not dismissing lack of post season success, they're dismissing the notion that ONE negative facts should COMPLETELY outweigh MANY positive facts.

Failing to support their argument based solely on the FACTS the extreme NoJos have taken the debate into the weeds, while employing similar tactics. They  magnify bad losses while minimizing big wins. They magnify other coaches success while minimizing Wojos. They criticize Wojo for lack of in game adjustments, player usage, defensive philosophy, offensive philosophy , situational strategies, etc, etc, in a loss, but fail to compliment Wojo for the same things in a win.  Are you starting to see a pattern here?

The reason it's fair to dismiss the above mentioned items when assessing Wojos performance to date, is because they are largely subjective and often apples to oranges.

I am not a Wojo zealot, I simply reject the extreme NoJos biased(IMHO) evaluating system when it comes to Wojo.

Lol. Some mind bending pretzel logic here. And you are a Wojo zealot. Good Lord.

[BrewCity83]

WhoaJoe2020 for President.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

WhoaJoe2020 for President.

Chicos as VP? Oh wait, you can't serve in both offices simultaneously.

[94Warrior]

I don't subscribe to the great coach theory. I think it's way more about the players. I guess if you classify a great coach as one who wins the tournament with lesser talent I would subscribe to that. Gard almost did it. Is he a great coach? Maybe.

Gard almost won a title????

I must have missed that.

[BrewCity83]

Chicos as VP? Oh wait, you can't serve in both offices simultaneously.

Uh, no.

[Lennys Tap]

The equal distribution of national championships from seeds 1-16 prove this point. Numbers don't lie.

Yep.

16 seeds have won 1 NCAA tournament game.

1 seeds have won 517.

34 tournaments since seeding began. 21 times a #1 seed won it. 13 times one of the other 15 seeds did. Crapshoot.

[WhoaJoe2020]

Mike Deane, as covered on this board, got canned for lowering expectations for reaching the NCAAs.  Failure once you get there isn't much better.

And all those players you mentioned...all of them are under-prepared and suffer from the impact of their coach being outmaneuvered in almost every game they play in.  It is a shame that much talent is being wasted by an inflexible coach.

The standard is definitely the NCAA.
You gotta get in it to win it.

I am personally not satisfied with one win in the NCAA. I want a title.

I have however accepted as I got older that you can't / don't  always get what you want.

I want a title this year.
Realistically I believe I'll have to settle for far less.

If we get Mane to go with the rest of this incoming class, I want a title next year, and realistically I think there's a shot.

Guess that's why I'm hesitant to dump
Wojo. This incoming recruiting class carries much more weight with me than a couple of NCAA losses in years where we weren't likely to win it all anyway.

If this incoming class had been anything less than it already is the scale would definitely be starting to tip in favor of looking for a new head coach. But it is what it is.

This year is all about getting in the NCAA tournament and getting Koby, Symir, Theo, Greg, Jamal, and Brendan more experience in the tournament. Advancing in the tournament is a reasonable goal and would be a great bonus in so many ways. The experience gained would be invaluable and would improve Marquettes chances of making a deep run next year.

[WhoaJoe2020]

Gard almost won a title????

I must have missed that.

Yeah my bad, two sweet 16s in his first two years. He also had pretty good talent so I should have just stuck to my original take. Great players make coaches look great. I think Holmgren once said he knew he made a bad play call the moment it left his mouth and Favre scored a touchdown. #GreatCoaching

[WhoaJoe2020]

Lol. Some mind bending pretzel logic here. And you are a Wojo zealot. Good Lord.

I have stated in other posts that if Wojo had not landed this incoming recruiting class I would have been fine with looking for a new head coach. I do try to post strong rebuttals to the more extreme critics, and those who equate people calling for giving Wojo a fair assessment with those who misrepresent the historical record.

Does that strike you as zealotry?

[Elonsmusk]

I have stated in other posts that if Wojo had not landed this incoming recruiting class I would have been fine with looking for a new head coach. I do try to post strong rebuttals to the more extreme critics, and those who equate people calling for giving Wojo a fair assessment with those who misrepresent the historical record.

Does that strike you as zealotry?

You are averaging 25 posts per day since joining here.  95% of them are to prop up Wojo.  That's pretty zealous.   

Most posters here who aren't in Wojo's camp give their fair assessment, you just have the alternative perspective and think yours is more "fair."

He's grading out as about a "C" hire, while having "A" level investment.  Those of us in the "no jo" camp would like to see that delta shrink.  Both Crean and Buzz exceeded Wojo's performance, so that's the bar he's being measured against by most fans.

[Class71]

I see a new technique being used here to win arguments. Filibustering with the written word. That can be added to the already well used techniques of mental abuse and the refined term, "Oops", when the Team goes sideways.

[WhoaJoe2020]

You are averaging 25 posts per day since joining here.  95% of them are to prop up Wojo.  That's pretty zealous.   

Most posters here who aren't in Wojo's camp give their fair assessment, you just have the alternative perspective and think yours is more "fair."

He's grading out as about a "C" hire, while having "A" level investment.  Those of us in the "no jo" camp would like to see that delta shrink.  Both Crean and Buzz exceeded Wojo's performance, so that's the bar he's being measured against by most fans.

Some are very short.

The long ones are solely intended as a counter to the extreme NoJos. Combined they are far more prolific than I could ever hope to be.
If you are not an extreme NoJo, who only criticizes his failures and never credits his successes, then my comments are not intended for you.

By the way, you're actually counting my posts?????? WTAF

As far as grades go, I give Wojo a C+ or a B- as an overall grade

For NCAA success I give him an F

[Cheeks]

I respectfully disagree.  Our average margin of loss in the NCAAs under Wojo is 19 points.  That is not a bad luck margin.  That is not a weird circumstance margin. That is not a last-second heroics margin.  That is not a disputed call margin.  And last year, it certainly was not a lower seed margin. 

What it is, is non-competitive.  And that is the problem.

Using Dean Smith as an example is a stretch.  Getting to the Final Four repeatedly and Wojo not being able to complete in Round 1...miles and miles apart.

Two possession game with 7 minutes left in the game...so for nearly 85% of the game competitive but because they sank a bunch of free throws at the end when it got away from us = uncompetitive.  Good Lord.

[Cheeks]

Uh, no.

TSMith horribly wrong again...no one surprised. 

[Lennys Tap]

Two possession game with 7 minutes left in the game...so for nearly 85% of the game competitive but because they sank a bunch of free throws at the end when it got away from us = uncompetitive.  Good Lord.

It is not true that "they sank a bunch of free throws at the end when it got away from us". From up 6 with just over 7 minutes left until just over 2 minutes left S Carolina outscored us 19-2. Three (3) of those 19 points were free throws. The other 16 were on field goals, many of them lay ups. Both of our 2 points were also on free throws. Up 23 with just over 2 minutes left the Gamecocks called off the dogs and we managed a couple of lay ups to their one (1) free throw to "cut" the final margin to 20. Total collapse, total cave in, nothing to do with "free throws at the end". More fiction from our head wojophile.

[WhoaJoe2020]

Yep.

16 seeds have won 1 NCAA tournament game.

1 seeds have won 517.

34 tournaments since seeding began. 21 times a #1 seed won it. 13 times one of the other 15 seeds did. Crapshoot.

I'll throw out a number......223

That's the number of upsets in the NCAA tournament since 1985..... Just by 11 seeds and lower. I didn't bother looking for the number of 10 seeds or higher upsetting a higher ranked opponents  in the tournament , but you get the idea......... # crapshoot

[hairy worthen]

I'll throw out a number......223

That's the number of upsets in the NCAA tournament since 1985..... Just by 11 seeds and lower. I didn't bother looking for the number of 10 seeds or higher upsetting a higher ranked opponents  in the tournament , but you get the idea......... # crapshoot

Wait, this is a chico's arguement, I mean cheeks,  or hoop a loop or warrior dad. You need to keep your alter egos straight.

[MUDPT]

Two possession game with 7 minutes left in the game...so for nearly 85% of the game competitive but because they sank a bunch of free throws at the end when it got away from us = uncompetitive.  Good Lord.

They also hit a 3 immediately after the 7 minute mark to make it a 9 point game and had a 85% chance to win the game. At the 9 minute mark, SC went on a 24-4 run. I agree looking at one game to judge a whole season is really dumb, but Marquette was not in this game after the 7 minute mark.

[Cheeks]

They also hit a 3 immediately after the 7 minute mark to make it a 9 point game and had a 85% chance to win the game. At the 9 minute mark, SC went on a 24-4 run. I agree looking at one game to judge a whole season is really dumb, but Marquette was not in this game after the 7 minute mark.

Yup....but let's stop the BS that we weren't competitive in that game or simply ignore how hot they were that they damn near played for the national title two weeks later.  The convenient memories that act like it was no contest the entire game to fill their rage agenda is getting old.

[Lennys Tap]

Yup....but let's stop the BS that we weren't competitive in that game or simply ignore how hot they were that they damn near played for the national title two weeks later.  The convenient memories that act like it was no contest the entire game to fill their rage agenda is getting old.

The only "BS" is what you said about them pulling away from us at the end on a bunch of free throws. Verifiably false, which of course you've never admitted.

As to whether or not we were "competitive" - we were blown away by 20. Who cares if you play the first 33 minutes -6 and the last 7 minutes -14 or vice versa. A blowout is a blowout. Period.

[Goatherder]

I respectfully disagree.  Our average margin of loss in the NCAAs under Wojo is 19 points.  That is not a bad luck margin.  That is not a weird circumstance margin. That is not a last-second heroics margin.  That is not a disputed call margin.  And last year, it certainly was not a lower seed margin. 

What it is, is non-competitive.  And that is the problem.

Using Dean Smith as an example is a stretch.  Getting to the Final Four repeatedly and Wojo not being able to complete in Round 1...miles and miles apart.

Absurdly small sample size.  What kind of conclusions do you come up with for Tony Bennett for two years in the tournament?  Is he the incompetent who was the first top seed to lose in the first round?  Or is he the guy who one the championship.  That is my point about Dean Smith.  I am not claiming Wojo is Dean Smith.  I am just reminding people of all the claims you used to hear that Dean "couldn't win the big one."  Clearly he could.  Now people are arguing if the game against South Carolina was competitive or not.  Stupid, stupid argument.  It is one game.  The score becomes irrelevant.  The team was in it for most of the game and ran out of gas.  Anybody who has watched a lot of college basketball knows that things can snowball and the final score is often meaningless. 

I find myself agreeing with WhoaJoe here.  He lays out a pretty clear and logical argument and the reply is, "lots of pretzel logic there, and you are a Wojo lover."  Boy, there's some brilliant analysis!  No attempt to counter the points he made, simple dismissal followed by name calling. 

I will put myself in the ProJoe camp for now.  Like any other of these arguments about whether to get rid of a coach/player in whatever sport, they leave open the important question, who are you going to get to replace him?  Pointing to the most successful guy out there and saying "Him!" is stupid.  You were never going to get that guy in the first place, you are certainly not going to get him by firing a successful coach, and comparing the guy you got to the most successful out there is a stupid idea anyway.  The standards some of you put forward are prerposterous. 
Making the tournament 99% of the time?  Right.  And when you come down from your high, let me know where you get that great grass from.  With it becoming legal in more and more places, it's good to know where you can find consistent quality. 

[Lennys Tap]

Absurdly small sample size.  What kind of conclusions do you come up with for Tony Bennett for two years in the tournament?  Is he the incompetent who was the first top seed to lose in the first round?  Or is he the guy who one the championship.  That is my point about Dean Smith.  I am not claiming Wojo is Dean Smith.  I am just reminding people of all the claims you used to hear that Dean "couldn't win the big one." 

What's the record for the number of Chicos found in one thread?

The "logic" on this topic is baffling. Jay Wright didn't win big before he won big. Wojo has never won big. Therefore Wojo is Jay Wright. Substitute Tony Bennett, same false syllogism. Throw in Dean Smith - not winning "the big one" is akin to not winning the first one. And BTW, how you lose doesn't matter either. Giving up and getting blown out shortly after halftime (Murray State) or in the game's final 7 minutes (S Carolina) is no different than battling to the wire and coming up just short. Hilarious.