MU Head Coach dilemma. Great groan or gone

[f/k/a humanlung]

This is part of the reason there is a continued debate that comes up over and over again with Wojo. When people explain the reasons they don't like him, too many here are dismissive of the explanations. Too many proJos want to assume that any criticism simply comes from disliking Wojo as a person rather than being frustrated by the product he puts on the floor.

If Wojo had gotten either of those tournament wins, he would have gained a few more supporters here for sure. And for some of the stronger critics, their views would have become more positive. Winning in March matters to a lot of basketball fans, and until Wojo can prove he's able to do that at Marquette, he's going to continue to get criticism here.

Bullseye.  100% right from where I sit.

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

Bullseye.  100% right from where I sit.

The Wojo debate has a lot of parallels to today's polarized political debates.  There's a total lack of listening and understanding.

[dgies9156]

Once upon a time, a great university hired a long-time assistant coach.

The coach was good but not great. The alumni were aggravated and fans upset because the top players went elsewhere, rather than to the great university.

The coach left and first did a stint in the pros and then was retained by a mid-major. The Mid-Major no longer acted like a mid-major and the talent was sufficient to get the mid-Major into the NCAA on a semi-regular basis.

Meanwhile, the great university floundered.

The coach was recruited away from the mid-major and to a state university that previously had never had a basketball tradition. There, he recruited well and assembled a team that so good, it made the NCAA National Championship game.

Meanwhile, less than 15 years after the great university won it all, its program was on life support.

Fast forward to today. I get that Wojo doesn't have the team where it should be.... yet. The hardest thing to assess is whether he's the answer. If he is and we let him go, we're a training ground for someone else's Natty. I don't like that. On the other hand, we stick with him and maybe we become what, historically, Dayton has become. Yuck!

The question: Do we have Rick Majerus or do we have Mike Deane?

[Silent Verbal]

Once upon a time, a great university hired a long-time assistant coach.

The coach was good but not great. The alumni were aggravated and fans upset because the top players went elsewhere, rather than to the great university.

The coach left and first did a stint in the pros and then was retained by a mid-major. The Mid-Major no longer acted like a mid-major and the talent was sufficient to get the mid-Major into the NCAA on a semi-regular basis.

Meanwhile, the great university floundered.

The coach was recruited away from the mid-major and to a state university that previously had never had a basketball tradition. There, he recruited well and assembled a team that so good, it made the NCAA National Championship game.

Meanwhile, less than 15 years after the great university won it all, its program was on life support.

Fast forward to today. I get that Wojo doesn't have the team where it should be.... yet. The hardest thing to assess is whether he's the answer. If he is and we let him go, we're a training ground for someone else's Natty. I don't like that. On the other hand, we stick with him and maybe we become what, historically, Dayton has become. Yuck!

The question: Do we have Rick Majerus or do we have Mike Deane?

First Wojo's trajectory was compared to Wright and K, but that's pretty much stopped.  The "Do we have Rick Majerus" question will be the next one to go.  You could literally ask that about any coach who isn't getting it done.  After this season, Wojo will have been here six years.  Assuming he's here next year, that'll make seven.  If he can't get it done at Marquette in seven years, he was never getting it done here, even if he goes on to have success at another school. 

[WhoaJoe2020]

This is part of the reason there is a continued debate that comes up over and over again with Wojo. When people explain the reasons they don't like him, too many here are dismissive of the explanations. Too many proJos want to assume that any criticism simply comes from disliking Wojo as a person rather than being frustrated by the product he puts on the floor.

If Wojo had gotten either of those tournament wins, he would have gained a few more supporters here for sure. And for some of the stronger critics, their views would have become more positive. Winning in March matters to a lot of basketball fans, and until Wojo can prove he's able to do that at Marquette, he's going to continue to get criticism here.

Acknowledging that Wojo stepped into a dumpster fire and within 5 years brought the program back into the national conversation would go a long way to convincing those who support(not idolize) him that extreme NoJos aren't just haters.

Acknowledging that he coached one of, if not The Greatest offensive player in Marquette history as well as some other standouts would help also.

Acknowledging that he has delivered an incoming recruiting class that is something special and could get better would be the icing on the cake.

Unfortunately, if the extreme NoJos acknowledged all these things it would undermine their argument.

By the way..... No one is dismissing the lack of NCAA tournament success.       It sucks.
But a couple of losses in March shouldn't be the determining factor when considering replacing Wojo.
They and other legitimate criticisms should be weighed against his accomplishments. Especially this new recruiting class. As of right now, I believe the scales tip decidedly in favor of retaining his services for at least one more year.

[Elonsmusk]

Acknowledging that Wojo stepped into a dumpster fire and within 5 years brought the program back into the national conversation would go a long way to convincing those who support(not idolize) him that extreme NoJos aren't just haters.

Acknowledging that he coached one of, if not The Greatest offensive player in Marquette history as well as some other standouts would help also.

Acknowledging that he has delivered an incoming recruiting class that is something special and could get better would be the icing on the cake.

Unfortunately, if the extreme NoJos acknowledged all these things it would undermine their argument.

By the way..... No one is dismissing the lack of NCAA tournament success.       It sucks.
But a couple of losses in March shouldn't be the determining factor when considering replacing Wojo.
They and other legitimate criticisms should be weighed against his accomplishments. Especially this new recruiting class. As of right now, I believe the scales tip decidedly in favor of retaining his services for at least one more year.

Fake News.

Why do you think of all the jobs Wojo was offered over his 20-years at Duke, he chose to take the MU job?  Wojo walked into a really good program with some talented underclassmen in the cupboard. 

Sure, Wojo has Markus, who arrived highly regarded - yet its more an indictment of Wojo that he has had Markus and hasn't figured out a way to win an NCAA tournament game - getting blown out in both, and missed the NCAA in one of Markus's three years.

Next year's recruiting class is really good, it becomes great if Mane signs on.  Wojo will need to put together Duke-caliber recruiting classes at MU if he is going to win big time, because he is just an average bench coach - which might even be putting it generously.

I don't think he should be fired.  I've just adjusted down my expectations for the program so long as he's the head coach.  I suspect we'll be a 30-60 type of program, and it could be worse. 

[dinger]

Acknowledging that Wojo stepped into a dumpster fire and within 5 years brought the program back into the national conversation would go a long way to convincing those who support(not idolize) him that extreme NoJos aren't just haters.

Acknowledging that he coached one of, if not The Greatest offensive player in Marquette history as well as some other standouts would help also.

Acknowledging that he has delivered an incoming recruiting class that is something special and could get better would be the icing on the cake.

Unfortunately, if the extreme NoJos acknowledged all these things it would undermine their argument.

By the way..... No one is dismissing the lack of NCAA tournament success.       It sucks.
But a couple of losses in March shouldn't be the determining factor when considering replacing Wojo.
They and other legitimate criticisms should be weighed against his accomplishments. Especially this new recruiting class. As of right now, I believe the scales tip decidedly in favor of retaining his services for at least one more year.

Re: lack of success
Many of the extreme projos here are doing just that and calling it a crapshoot and such.
Re: one more year (I could swear this just said "one more year" earlier), you do realize next year the narrative will be that we will have just lost an all american and cannot possibly be as good next year, so we will need yet more time.

Edit projo not promo

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

Fake News.

Next year's recruiting class is really good, it becomes great if Mane signs on.  Wojo will need to put together Duke-caliber recruiting classes at MU if he is going to win big time, because he is just an average bench coach - which might even be putting it generously.

I don't think he should be fired.  I've just adjusted down my expectations for the program so long as he's the head coach.  I suspect will be a 30-60 type of program, and it could be worse.

This is the best short analysis I've read on here of the program. 

Wojo goes as far as his recruits take him.  Don't expect anything where the sum of it's parts > Whole. 

30-60 ranking territory is pretty accurate.  I'd say the median ranking for the team is high 40's and best years will be in 30's ....maybe a 20's if he can hit his outlier. 

Without Markus Howard he doesn't have a difference maker and that's going to really put the pressure on Wojo to coach up a system.  Otherwise, Howard skews things in terms of how bare the shelf really is with this team. 

[WhoaJoe2020]

Re: lack of success
Many of the extreme promos here are doing just that and calling it a crapshoot and such.
Re: one more year (I could swear this just said "one more year" earlier), you do realize next year the narrative will be that we will have just lost an all american and cannot possibly be as good next year, so we will need yet more time.

They are dismissing NCAA tournament success as the be all end all when judging overall success. Just as I did.

They are not dismissing the lack of NCAA tournament success as unfair criticism, only that it not be given undue consideration when weighing the positive and negative aspects of WoJos tenure.

They are not alone in saying it's a crapshoot, they are citing top coaches who have stated as much. And there is some logic to that statement.  Considering that basketball can be unpredictable in general, and then you match up two unfamiliar teams in an unfamiliar arena, strange things can happen, and often do. Crapshoot = unpredictability = throw out the percentages. Ask Virginia.

As far as next year, WTAF??? Have you already given up on this year???
Some people focus so much on Wojo they forget.... So I'll remind you.
Markus is till here, Sacar is still here, Brendan is still here, Koby is still here, Theo is still here, Ed is still here, Greg is still here, Jamal is still here, Jayce is still here, Symir is still here, and lest we not forget...... Wojo is still here

Next year will take care of itself, and hopefully Wojo will still be here.

[dinger]

They are dismissing NCAA tournament success as the be all end all when judging overall success. Just as I did.

They are not dismissing the lack of NCAA tournament success as unfair criticism, only that it not be given undue consideration when weighing the positive and negative aspects of WoJos tenure.

They are not alone in saying it's a crapshoot, they are citing top coaches who have stated as much. And there is some logic to that statement.  Considering that basketball can be unpredictable in general, and then you match up two unfamiliar teams in an unfamiliar arena, strange things can happen, and often do. Crapshoot = unpredictability = throw out the percentages. Ask Virginia.

Look I dont need a 2 paragraph synopsis on how good teams lose and upsets happen. I get that upsets happen. Trying to bring up how us losing in the NCAAs is just like Virginia an extreme projo move.

[panda]

Look I dont need a 2 paragraph synopsis on how good teams lose and upsets happen. I get that upsets happen. Trying to bring up how us losing in the NCAAs is just like Virginia an extreme projo move.

Crapshoot or not, good teams and good coaches win in the tournament.

[Elonsmusk]

This is the best short analysis I've read on here of the program. 

Wojo goes as far as his recruits take him.  Don't expect anything where the sum of it's parts > Whole. 

30-60 ranking territory is pretty accurate.  I'd say the median ranking for the team is high 40's and best years will be in 30's ....maybe a 20's if he can hit his outlier. 

Without Markus Howard he doesn't have a difference maker and that's going to really put the pressure on Wojo to coach up a system.  Otherwise, Howard skews things in terms of how bare the shelf really is with this team.

Agree, and this concerns me for next year.  Fingers crossed for Mane.  We need an elite caliber athlete at the guard spot for next year. 

[WhoaJoe2020]

Look I dont need a 2 paragraph synopsis on how good teams lose and upsets happen. I get that upsets happen. Trying to bring up how us losing in the NCAAs is just like Virginia an extreme projo move.

Umm.... You accused people who don't want Wojo fired of dismissing lack of NCAA success, and offered that as proof that they're extreme in their bias. I addressed your point and then you avoided it. Purposefully or not.

PS... I also amended my previous post to address your comment about "next year "

[dinger]

Umm.... You accused people who don't want Wojo fired of dismissing lack of NCAA success, and offered that as proof that they're extreme in their bias. I addressed your point and then you avoided it. Purposefully or not.

PS... I also amended my previous post to address your comment about "next year "

No, unlike you I think there are some extreme projos on here, and I find them entirely dismissing of our postseason record. You may agree with their arguments by quoting coach speak and how the national champion lost a year before so that's just gonna stay as it is.
Re: amended post, I dont really appreciate the patronizing attitude and that kind of tone is why I only bother posting a few times a year, but yes I am aware of the roster composition and haven't given up on anything. I wouldn't be driving 600 miles in the middle of winter to go to a game in a few weeks if I had. My point is that even with a great recruiting class next yr we will probably take a step back and the extreme projo element on here will be telling us we need yet more time.
I'm obviously no extreme nojo here but honestly i kind of enjoy some of the dumb crap on here after a loss. Some strange gallows humor or whatever. Honestly I'd rather see that than some pointless attempt to talk down to everyone about your viewpoint to craft the board into your own high school debate team.

[WhoaJoe2020]

No, unlike you I think there are some extreme projos on here, and I find them entirely dismissing of our postseason record. You may agree with their arguments by quoting coach speak and how the national champion lost a year before so that's just gonna stay as it is.
Re: amended post, I dont really appreciate the patronizing attitude and that kind of tone is why I only bother posting a few times a year, but yes I am aware of the roster composition and haven't given up on anything. I wouldn't be driving 600 miles in the middle of winter to go to a game in a few weeks if I had. My point is that even with a great recruiting class next yr we will probably take a step back and the extreme projo element on here will be telling us we need yet more time.
I'm obviously no extreme nojo here but honestly i kind of enjoy some of the dumb crap on here after a loss. Some strange gallows humor or whatever. Honestly I'd rather see that than some pointless attempt to talk down to everyone about your viewpoint to craft the board into your own high school debate team.

Sadly I think you honestly believe everything you said.

If you really are unbiased then my comments shouldn't bother you.

NOTHING I have posted has been excessively positive about Wojo. The  most I gave him was that he was trending positive. That's about the faintest praise a person can give.

When confronted by posters who substitute their opinions for facts and deny the historical record of Wojos tenure I will point to significant events in the timeline that undermine their argument. Some people don't like that. Tough. That's why they call it harsh reality.

You say you enjoy " gallows humor "?
Well the jokes getting old. It was funny the first time I heard the Wojo sucks routine but now not so much.
Did I ruin your time on the board? Well welcome to the party.
Its no joy being a supporter of Wojo at times, but someone has to do it.

As for crafting the board to my liking....
ROTFLMFAO
I wish I had that kind of influence.

I consider myself a positive antibody activated by the boards immune system in response to an extreme infection of negativity. The infection can't be completely eliminated but hopefully it can be reduced to undetectable levels.

[Cheeks]

Fake News.

Why do you think of all the jobs Wojo was offered over his 20-years at Duke, he chose to take the MU job?  Wojo walked into a really good program with some talented underclassmen in the cupboard. 

Sure, Wojo has Markus, who arrived highly regarded - yet its more an indictment of Wojo that he has had Markus and hasn't figured out a way to win an NCAA tournament game - getting blown out in both, and missed the NCAA in one of Markus's three years.

Next year's recruiting class is really good, it becomes great if Mane signs on.  Wojo will need to put together Duke-caliber recruiting classes at MU if he is going to win big time, because he is just an average bench coach - which might even be putting it generously.

I don't think he should be fired.  I've just adjusted down my expectations for the program so long as he's the head coach.  I suspect we'll be a 30-60 type of program, and it could be worse.

Walking into a really good program and walking into a good team are two completely different things.  The fact we are a good program helped him get things going, but the roster was the roster.

[Cheeks]

Re: lack of success
Many of the extreme projos here are doing just that and calling it a crapshoot and such.
Re: one more year (I could swear this just said "one more year" earlier), you do realize next year the narrative will be that we will have just lost an all american and cannot possibly be as good next year, so we will need yet more time.

Edit projo not promo

It's a crapshoot regardless of who the coach or program is.  There's a reason why so many people, including actual players and coaches, journalists, etc, call it a crapshoot.  Nothing to do with Wojo.

[Cheeks]

Crapshoot or not, good teams and good coaches win in the tournament.

And they also lose early in the tournament.  Maybe you should stick to black holes,

[WhiteTrash]

It's a crapshoot regardless of who the coach or program is.  There's a reason why so many people, including actual players and coaches, journalists, etc, call it a crapshoot.  Nothing to do with Wojo.

The equal distribution of national championships from seeds 1-16 prove this point. Numbers don't lie.

[Goatherder]

Of course it's a crap shoot.  I love March Madness, but there is lots of luck and circumstance involved.  I have seen lots of fan bases complain that their incoming coach has a lousy tournament record - ignoring the fact that his teams had to play high seeds every year.  Loyola had a magical run, and won its first three games with late heroics.  If they lose the first game, their coach is just a guy who cannot win in the tournament.  A couple years ago, Northwestern got its first ever bid and won its first game.  Then they lost to the eventual runner-up on a disputed call.  If they win that one, Collins is the guy who not only got them to the tournament but to the Sweet Sixteen in their first appearance.  But instead, they are a footnote, a brief pleasant memory. 

So Wojo has not won any tournament games yet.  BFD.  Lots of coaches do not for a while, and losses to tournament quality teams in the regular season is not a shock or the end of the world.  And you remember Dean Smith?  He kept getting to the Final Four and could never win the big one.  The guy was way overrated. 

[79Warrior]

The equal distribution of national championships from seeds 1-16 prove this point. Numbers don't lie.

This

[dinger]

NOTHING I have posted has been excessively positive about Wojo. The  most I gave him was that he was trending positive. That's about the faintest praise a person can give.

No, I didnt say you are the extreme projo. You said "No one is dismissing the lack of NCAA tournament success"
But right before me..."So Wojo has not won any tournament games yet.  BFD. " plenty more here dismiss it too.
That's fine, too. We all have opinions. But you rant about absolutes and then go off and make absolute statements as well that are wrong. Your attempt at facts can be crap too no matter how calm and measured you try to sound.

When confronted by posters who substitute their opinions for facts and deny the historical record of Wojos tenure I will point to significant events in the timeline that undermine their argument. Some people don't like that. Tough.

It's all arbitrary, man. Just like yelling at an internet message board isn't going to get wojo fired, this wont help his status either. I think the most important facts for wojo's employment are revenue for the bball team and athletic department (which for now is going fine) and the fact that he probably has a hefty contract buyout (contract is confidential but I'd guess its 50-75% salary payout for 5 years), plus cost of search and next coach buyout.  That's a lot of money to pay for maybe a 55% chance the next guy bring in more money and does a little better. So we probably agree more than ya think, wojo isn't going anywhere now.

It's no joy being a supporter of Wojo at times, but someone has to do it.

Poor you. It shouldnt have to be such a chore to support the coach. I chose to support the team.  Coaches come and go but MU will stay.

[CTWarrior]

They are dismissing NCAA tournament success as the be all end all when judging overall success. Just as I did.

They are not dismissing the lack of NCAA tournament success as unfair criticism, only that it not be given undue consideration when weighing the positive and negative aspects of WoJos tenure.

They are not alone in saying it's a crapshoot, they are citing top coaches who have stated as much. And there is some logic to that statement.  Considering that basketball can be unpredictable in general, and then you match up two unfamiliar teams in an unfamiliar arena, strange things can happen, and often do. Crapshoot = unpredictability = throw out the percentages. Ask Virginia.

As far as next year, WTAF??? Have you already given up on this year???
Some people focus so much on Wojo they forget.... So I'll remind you.
Markus is till here, Sacar is still here, Brendan is still here, Koby is still here, Theo is still here, Ed is still here, Greg is still here, Jamal is still here, Jayce is still here, Symir is still here, and lest we not forget...... Wojo is still here

Next year will take care of itself, and hopefully Wojo will still be here.

Forget the tournament! Its not like we've had these great regular seasons and then were upset in the crapshoot of all crapshoots tournament.  We've haven't been as good as we were in many seasons from end of O'Neill era through Buzz in the regular season.  No top 25 finishes, and top 25 type teams are generally the teams that do well in the tournament.  We haven't had a team that, on March 1, could reasonably be expected to make the second weekend since he got here.  That is the issue.  I don't see us as having one of those teams this year, either.  And I don't see it next year, either.

(I will admit I have a Ewing Theory hope for next year's team.)  I don't think we should cut bait this year, I'm with those who say that next season's incoming class earned him more time.  But at some point we have to starting winning, and not 2025 or something.

[panda]

And they also lose early in the tournament.  Maybe you should stick to black holes,

Winning is the operative word here. I didn't say crumble and embarrass themselves.

[Cheeks]

The equal distribution of national championships from seeds 1-16 prove this point. Numbers don't lie.

LSU destroyed Oklahoma.....did they really destroy them?   LSU killed Oklahoma....were they really killed?  Dead bodies and all?


Sports figures have used the crap shoot terminology for this and other events for years....call it what you will...it does a nice job of encapsulating the chaotic nature of a tournament where anything can happen, including a 16 beating a 1.