Poll
Question:
Who is more likely to transfer?
Option 1: JJJ
votes: 20
Option 2: John Dawson
votes: 49
Option 3: D. Burton
votes: 5
Option 4: I refuse to answer
votes: 61
Its clear that the freshmen should be playing more minutes if not starting. Im almost certain that at least one of these three will transfer.
Stupid poll.
Burton played, but continues to be brutal defensively. He'll get there but he continues to be late on rotations and it cost MU baskets last night.
JJJ got caught in a numbers game because Thomas shot so well and Mayo took the back up minutes. He'll play more than last night.
Dawson in Buzz's eyes just isn't ready.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 22, 2013, 09:54:39 AM
Stupid poll.
Burton played, but continues to be brutal defensively. He'll get there but he continues to be late on rotations and it cost MU baskets last night.
JJJ got caught in a numbers game because Thomas shot so well and Mayo took the back up minutes. He'll play more than last night.
Dawson in Buzz's eyes just isn't ready.
yea ok
"I refuse to answer" is for the folks in denial. I understand.
Denial of what? That someone might transfer?
Sure they might. Who cares at this point? The only freshmen that I could see playing more than they have earned is JJJ. The other two are playing pretty much what they deserve to play.
None of them are transferring.
Someone needs a nap.
Wait. Burton screws up defensively yet Derrick, stout on defense but can't score, gets love?
There's gotta be a balance.
I guess those who opt for Derrick just want A CHANCE to win.
But limiting your team to just four options on the floor is pathetic.
If Marquette struggles early in Big East play, especially if we get upset in game #2 against DePaul, there really is no harm in NOT playing/starting the freshmen and seeing what they can do.
The coaching staff should know by know, as so many of us on here are shouting, what they have in Derrick and Jake. The other players are still wild cards.
Whether or not folks like the idea of a poll, I do think this might be a legitimate concern.
Remember, these are kids. They look around the country and see other freshmen getting significant minutes. Some are studs playing for great teams (Parker, Wiggins), some are borderline talents playing for good teams (the coach's kid last night) and there are dozens upon dozens in between: "They are getting minutes and I'm not."
Whether they play good enough defense or "earn" their minutes in practice is beside the point to them. I'm not saying those things shouldn't matter to Buzz in doling out playing time; I'm saying that the kids might not see it that way.
Most highly recruited athletes have sizable egos -- that's not a knock; they need to think they are better than the next guy. When they come to college being told how great they are (including, in JJJ's case at least, by their new coach) and suddenly they aren't playing -- and throw in the fact that they might not see those in front of them on the depth chart as being better than they are -- it is human nature to wonder if the grass might be greener elsewhere.
I'm not predicting transfers or anything like that, but I sure wouldn't be surprised if a couple of these kids aren't already thinking about it.
Quote from: MU82 on December 22, 2013, 12:23:44 PM
Whether or not folks like the idea of a poll, I do think this might be a legitimate concern.
Remember, these are kids. They look around the country and see other freshmen getting significant minutes. Some are studs playing for great teams (Parker, Wiggins), some are borderline talents playing for good teams (the coach's kid last night) and there are dozens upon dozens in between: "They are getting minutes and I'm not."
Whether they play good enough defense or "earn" their minutes in practice is beside the point to them. I'm not saying those things shouldn't matter to Buzz in doling out playing time; I'm saying that the kids might not see it that way.
Most highly recruited athletes have sizable egos -- that's not a knock; they need to think they are better than the next guy. When they come to college being told how great they are (including, in JJJ's case at least, by their new coach) and suddenly they aren't playing -- and throw in the fact that they might not see those in front of them on the depth chart as being better than they are -- it is human nature to wonder if the grass might be greener elsewhere.
I'm not predicting transfers or anything like that, but I sure wouldn't be surprised if a couple of these kids aren't already thinking about it.
I don't think anyone's disapproval of the poll has anything to do with whether or not it's a legitimate concern. At least mine does not.
How negative can you get? The poster who wrote this question should be banned. he's a troll.
I look back to last year with Jamal Ferguson and immediately think of Dawson. In fact what we saw from Ferguson in his few minutes might have been better than what we have seen from Dawson.
Ferguson was buried on the depth chart and if Duane is who we think he is the same will be true with Dawson....
Dawson has every right to transfer if he doesn't start getting minutes.
We have had some interesting things happen under Buzz and we have lost a couple of solid players. We can't deny that. It happens with any program but I think it has happened here quite a bit. You don't top 100 recruits to stay if you don't give them a chance.
Our starters right now...
1-Derrick (Not top 100)
2-Jake (Not even close)
3-Jamil (Top 100)
4-Juan (Made top 100 in some rankings)
5-Otule (Not close)
6-Gardner (Not top 100 but a good player)
Our bench on the other hand
-Steve (Top 100)
-Duane (Top 100) (Top 50 in a few)
-JJJ (Top 50)
-Deonte (Top 50)
-Mayo (Not top 100)
if you go your who hs career being touted as a top prospect and then you come and dont get much playing time...you wont be toop happy
Quote from: Clam Crowder on December 22, 2013, 12:57:15 PM
I look back to last year with Jamal Ferguson and immediately think of Dawson. In fact what we saw from Ferguson in his few minutes might have been better than what we have seen from Dawson.
Ferguson was buried on the depth chart and if Duane is who we think he is the same will be true with Dawson....
Dawson has every right to transfer if he doesn't start getting minutes.
We have had some interesting things happen under Buzz and we have lost a couple of solid players. We can't deny that. It happens with any program but I think it has happened here quite a bit. You don't top 100 recruits to stay if you don't give them a chance.
Our starters right now...
1-Derrick (Not top 100)
2-Jake (Not even close)
3-Jamil (Top 100)
4-Juan (Made top 100 in some rankings)
5-Otule (Not close)
6-Gardner (Not top 100 but a good player)
Our bench on the other hand
-Steve (Top 100)
-Duane (Top 100) (Top 50 in a few)
-JJJ (Top 50)
-Deonte (Top 50)
-Mayo (Not top 100)
if you go your who hs career being touted as a top prospect and then you come and dont get much playing time...you wont be toop happy
Well none of these guys are entitled to anything, they have to and should have to earn it. None of those first group of guys you listed started or played alot as freshmen. They are freaking freshmen. It is rare for freshmen to come in and contribute immediately.
When you are as high as Duane or Jajuan you really do expect to play alot Freshman year. The JJJ vs Jake situation is a testament to Buzz loving his seniors too much
Quote from: Clam Crowder on December 22, 2013, 01:09:01 PM
When you are as high as Duane or Jajuan you really do expect to play alot Freshman year. The JJJ vs Jake situation is a testament to Buzz loving his seniors too much
Duane is hurt. JJJ is playing 15 mpg. Is that substantially different than other freshmen?
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on December 22, 2013, 12:39:13 PM
How negative can you get? The poster who wrote this question should be banned. he's a troll.
im just blunt and I call it like it is
Question: Who is more most likely to transfer?
You may only select up to 10 options.
JJJ
John Dawson
D. Burton
I refuse to answer
View results
FIFY
Quote from: Dreadman24 on December 22, 2013, 01:14:12 PM
im just blunt and I call it like it is
Call it? You started a poll. With 10 options allowed.
Quote from: Clam Crowder on December 22, 2013, 12:57:15 PMif you go your who hs career being touted as a top prospect and then you come and dont get much playing time...you wont be toop happy
Butler wasn't close to top-100. Neither were Crowder, DJO, or Buycks, all of whom have gone from MU to the NBA. Once you get here, you have to earn time. I have no problem with that. In addition, I have no problem with freshmen and sophomores having to prove themselves before they take time from juniors and seniors.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 22, 2013, 02:03:57 PM
Butler wasn't close to top-100. Neither were Crowder, DJO, or Buycks, all of whom have gone from MU to the NBA. Once you get here, you have to earn time. I have no problem with that. In addition, I have no problem with freshmen and sophomores having to prove themselves before they take time from juniors and seniors.
But guys like Crowder, DJO, and Butler were getting offers by the Kentucky's and Kansas's of the world coming out of JUCO.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 22, 2013, 02:03:57 PM
Butler wasn't close to top-100. Neither were Crowder, DJO, or Buycks, all of whom have gone from MU to the NBA. Once you get here, you have to earn time. I have no problem with that. In addition, I have no problem with freshmen and sophomores having to prove themselves before they take time from juniors and seniors.
Again, what I said isn't about us having a problem with Buzz's system or not. Some hate what Buzz has done with the freshmen and some understand it. Not the point.
What is the point is that the freshmen themselves might not understand it or like it. They have "peeps" in their ears telling them, "Man, you are better than so-and-so; you should be playing 30 minutes a game like so-and-so is at Such-And-Such U." Plus, they have their own eyes and see players in front of them having horrible games but being left in for 20-minute stints. Meanwhile, they finally get into a game, they are yanked after one missed defensive assignment and that could be disheartening.
It's a perception thing -- not for us, because who really cares about what we think, but for the kids themselves.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 22, 2013, 02:03:57 PM
Butler wasn't close to top-100. Neither were Crowder, DJO, or Buycks, all of whom have gone from MU to the NBA. Once you get here, you have to earn time. I have no problem with that. In addition, I have no problem with freshmen and sophomores having to prove themselves before they take time from juniors and seniors.
Butler, DJO and Buycks were all JUCO AAs, and Crowder was JUCO player of the year.
Hoopscoop is the only service that combines HS and JUCO into a single ranking, and all were equivalent to top 100 HS players: Buycks, Crowder and DJO in the 11-40 range, Butler in the top 70.
The season is lost----Play your futures and Jamil, Juan and Taylor. The vets are pouters
Quote from: MU82 on December 22, 2013, 02:11:24 PM
Again, what I said isn't about us having a problem with Buzz's system or not. Some hate what Buzz has done with the freshmen and some understand it. Not the point.
What is the point is that the freshmen themselves might not understand it or like it. They have "peeps" in their ears telling them, "Man, you are better than so-and-so; you should be playing 30 minutes a game like so-and-so is at Such-And-Such U." Plus, they have their own eyes and see players in front of them having horrible games but being left in for 20-minute stints. Meanwhile, they finally get into a game, they are yanked after one missed defensive assignment and that could be disheartening.
It's a perception thing -- not for us, because who really cares about what we think, but for the kids themselves.
And that all comes down to culture. I can't imagine they were promised anything coming in other than that they were going to have to work hard and earn their time. I'd rather see the guys that give us the best chance to win and put in effort on both ends of the court out there (for better or worse) than simply handing guys time because of what Evan Daniels or Clark Francis said about them while they were in high school. If they end up transferring, so be it.
I get that it's a possibility, but that's the case anywhere, and putting them in and losing games because of it isn't going to magically fix anything.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 22, 2013, 02:37:29 PM
And that all comes down to culture. I can't imagine they were promised anything coming in other than that they were going to have to work hard and earn their time. I'd rather see the guys that give us the best chance to win and put in effort on both ends of the court out there (for better or worse) than simply handing guys time because of what Evan Daniels or Clark Francis said about them while they were in high school. If they end up transferring, so be it.
I get that it's a possibility, but that's the case anywhere, and putting them in and losing games because of it isn't going to magically fix anything.
We basically are in agreement. I'm not saying Buzz should change a thing (although making at least a few slight changes for the sake of change probably wouldn't hurt, IMHO). All I'm doing is pointing out the reality of the situation.
Quote from: MU82 on December 22, 2013, 04:16:09 PM
We basically are in agreement. I'm not saying Buzz should change a thing (although making at least a few slight changes for the sake of change probably wouldn't hurt, IMHO). All I'm doing is pointing out the reality of the situation.
Yup. I get that. But if guys transfer, they do. Just like Blue, one of those things that is beyond our control, and the culture Buzz has developed is one that has won regardless. I can live with a few guys going elsewhere if that's the price of having a winning culture.
Quote from: The Equalizer on December 22, 2013, 02:27:56 PM
Hoopscoop is the only service that combines HS and JUCO into a single ranking, and all were equivalent to top 100 HS players: Buycks, Crowder and DJO in the 11-40 range, Butler in the top 70.
This is insane. Please provide the link that states this.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 22, 2013, 04:22:33 PM
Yup. I get that. But if guys transfer, they do. Just like Blue, one of those things that is beyond our control, and the culture Buzz has developed is one that has won regardless. I can live with a few guys going elsewhere if that's the price of having a winning culture.
Plus, I'm sure that the expectations were already set when during the recruiting process. I mean maybe they're questioning their decision to come here, but at the very least, they must have been aware that this was a real possibility, especially when an opposing team's coach is in the recruit's ear telling him that he won't see PT at MU as a freshmen.
Hopefully all of the freshmen have the foresight to realize that discipline and effort is better preparation for the NBA than playing glorified pick-up games at some low-major school.
But, as great as practice is, nothing perfectly simulates game-time situations and I wish the leash on the freshmen was a tad bit longer. But but, I also hate when people outside my field tell me how to do my job, so there's that...
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 22, 2013, 04:28:22 PM
This is insane. Please provide the link that states this.
I don't know if they are insane....they are a service that looks at prep players, JUCO players and high school players in composite rankings. Not aware of any other that combines all three in depth. I believe some do a top 10 of JUCO players or might do a courtesy look at Prep players which ends up in places like the RSCI, but not a complete examination. At least that I can recall.
Your boy Mitch McGary was the number one rated 5th year prep player in the country out of Brewster Academy in 2012 by Hoopscoop.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 22, 2013, 04:28:22 PM
This is insane. Please provide the link that states this.
"On our rating 1-10 rating scale a top five player nationally is worth 10 points, a top 10 player nationally is worth nine points,
a player in the 11-40 range nationally is worth eight points, a player in the
41-70 range nationally is worth six points"
2010
http://www.hoopscooponline.com/members/finalranking-2010-top339recruitingclasses.asp
11. MARQUETTE (26 Points)..........5 Recruits..........5.2 Talent Rating Average Per Recruit..........Big East Conference..........
(8) Jae Crowder, 6'6, PF, Howard, (JC) TX; (8) Vander Blue, 6'3, 2G, Madison (Memorial) WI; (4) Jamail Jones, 6'6, PF, Montverde (Academy) FL; (3) Reggie Smith, 6'1, PG, Harvey (Thornton) IL; (3) Davante Gardner, 6'9, C, Suffolk (King's Fork) VA.
2009
http://www.hoopscooponline.com/members/toprecruitingclasses-classof2009.asp
1. MARQUETTE (46 Points)..........7 Recruits..........6.6 Talent Rating Average Per Recruit..........Big East Conference..........(8) Erik Williams, 6'7, WF, Cypress (Cypress Springs) TX; (8) Junior Cadugon, 6'0, PG, Humble (Christian Life) TX; (8) Jeronne Maymon, 6'6, PF, Madison (Memorial) WI;
(8) Dwight Buycks, 6'3, 2G, Indian Hills (JC) IA;
(8) Darius Johnson-Odom, 6'2, PG, Hutchinson (JC) KS; (3) Brett Roseboro, 6'10, PF, Quakertown (H.S.) PA; (3) Youssouphe Mbao, 7'2, C, Simi Valley (Stoneridge Prep) CA.
2008
http://www.hoopscooponline.com/members/finalranking-toprecruitingclasses-classof2008.asp
82. MARQUETTE (13 Points)..........3 Recruits..........4.3 Talent Rating Average Per Recruit..........Big East Conference..........
(6) Jimmy Butler, 6'6, WF, Tyler (JC) TX; (4) Joseph Fulce, 6'7, WF, Tyler (JC) TX; (3) Chris Otule, 6'10, C, Ft. end (Bush) TX.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 22, 2013, 04:52:15 PM
I don't know if they are insane....they are a service that looks at prep players, JUCO players and high school players in composite rankings. Not aware of any other that combines all three in depth. I believe some do a top 10 of JUCO players or might do a courtesy look at Prep players which ends up in places like the RSCI, but not a complete examination. At least that I can recall.
Your boy Mitch McGary was the number one rated 5th year prep player in the country out of Brewster Academy in 2012 by Hoopscoop.
Well...I'm pretty sure they are insane, but I'm not sure that's the reason why. I'd point to Junior being ranked #14 in his class or Erik Williams being #19 the same year as evidence of Clark Francis' insanity ;D
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 22, 2013, 04:52:15 PM
I don't know if they are insane....they are a service that looks at prep players, JUCO players and high school players in composite rankings. Not aware of any other that combines all three in depth. I believe some do a top 10 of JUCO players or might do a courtesy look at Prep players which ends up in places like the RSCI, but not a complete examination. At least that I can recall.
Your boy Mitch McGary was the number one rated 5th year prep player in the country out of Brewster Academy in 2012 by Hoopscoop.
Well, there are three (3) ten (10) member juco AA teams. Jimmy Butler didn't make the first, second or third team. He made honorable mention, making him somewhere between the 31st and 50th rated juco. No freakin' way that equates to a top 70 guy out of high school. Same goes with his "translation" or conversion of the other guys rankings. It's nonsense.
Hoopscoop? Really? I rest my case.
Looks like they did a pretty nice job on projecting how good our JUCOs were....that and the fact that those guys were getting a lot of high major offers while JUCOs also says a lot.
I see they nailed Rosboro, Mbao, Jones and Smith...they missed on DG, but so did everyone.
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 22, 2013, 05:02:29 PM
"On our rating 1-10 rating scale a top five player nationally is worth 10 points, a top 10 player nationally is worth nine points, a player in the 11-40 range nationally is worth eight points, a player in the 41-70 range nationally is worth six points"
2010
http://www.hoopscooponline.com/members/finalranking-2010-top339recruitingclasses.asp
11. MARQUETTE (26 Points)..........5 Recruits..........5.2 Talent Rating Average Per Recruit..........Big East Conference..........(8) Jae Crowder, 6'6, PF, Howard, (JC) TX; (8) Vander Blue, 6'3, 2G, Madison (Memorial) WI; (4) Jamail Jones, 6'6, PF, Montverde (Academy) FL; (3) Reggie Smith, 6'1, PG, Harvey (Thornton) IL; (3) Davante Gardner, 6'9, C, Suffolk (King's Fork) VA.
2009
http://www.hoopscooponline.com/members/toprecruitingclasses-classof2009.asp
1. MARQUETTE (46 Points)..........7 Recruits..........6.6 Talent Rating Average Per Recruit..........Big East Conference..........(8) Erik Williams, 6'7, WF, Cypress (Cypress Springs) TX; (8) Junior Cadugon, 6'0, PG, Humble (Christian Life) TX; (8) Jeronne Maymon, 6'6, PF, Madison (Memorial) WI; (8) Dwight Buycks, 6'3, 2G, Indian Hills (JC) IA; (8) Darius Johnson-Odom, 6'2, PG, Hutchinson (JC) KS; (3) Brett Roseboro, 6'10, PF, Quakertown (H.S.) PA; (3) Youssouphe Mbao, 7'2, C, Simi Valley (Stoneridge Prep) CA.
2008
http://www.hoopscooponline.com/members/finalranking-toprecruitingclasses-classof2008.asp
82. MARQUETTE (13 Points)..........3 Recruits..........4.3 Talent Rating Average Per Recruit..........Big East Conference..........(6) Jimmy Butler, 6'6, WF, Tyler (JC) TX; (4) Joseph Fulce, 6'7, WF, Tyler (JC) TX; (3) Chris Otule, 6'10, C, Ft. end (Bush) TX.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 22, 2013, 05:05:48 PM
Well...I'm pretty sure they are insane, but I'm not sure that's the reason why. I'd point to Junior being ranked #14 in his class or Erik Williams being #19 the same year as evidence of Clark Francis' insanity ;D
They all miss on some guys....remember Erik Williams was a top 100 by a number of services. I hate these ratings, but I think 84 has a point that Butler, Crowder, DJO, Buycks didn't just show up on campus as not very good players. They were quite good, got very good offers while JUCOs and at least some services thought they were very highly regarded players.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 22, 2013, 05:13:33 PM
They all miss on some guys....remember Erik Williams was a top 100 by a number of services. I hate these ratings, but I think 84 has a point that Butler, Crowder, DJO, Buycks didn't just show up on campus as not very good players. They were quite good, got very good offers while JUCOs and at least some services thought they were very highly regarded players.
They do, but that one more than most seems to have some radically different opinions on some guys. Just arguing that the initial post that started this talked about high school rankings and taking a chance to take a shot at the Hoopscoop rankings ;)
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 22, 2013, 05:17:08 PM
They do, but that one more than most seems to have some radically different opinions on some guys. Just arguing that the initial post that started this talked about high school rankings and taking a chance to take a shot at the Hoopscoop rankings ;)
They got Mbao and Roseboro right. ;)
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 22, 2013, 05:05:58 PM
Well, there are three (3) ten (10) member juco AA teams. Jimmy Butler didn't make the first, second or third team. He made honorable mention, making him somewhere between the 31st and 50th rated juco. No freakin' way that equates to a top 70 guy out of high school. Same goes with his "translation" or conversion of the other guys rankings. It's nonsense.
Hoopscoop? Really? I rest my case.
So let me get this straight. He rated Butler, DJO, Buycks, and Crowder all very highly. They all performed to that expectation.
And becuase YOU at one point thought they wouldn't amount to much, HE'S the one who's insane?
Based on what? Because the guy went four-for-four on correctly predicting the success of MU's JCUOs and proved you wrong on each and every one of them?
Based on what actual evidence are you saying he's wrong? Based on the facts, I'd say that it was the JUCO AA voters who were insane for not voting Butler higher--not vice versa.
Look--you've been wrong about our JUCO's for five years. You're still trying to pass them off as a bunch of talentless hacks that no D1 team in the country would recruit (last week you still were calling them not as good as the HS top 500).
And maybe you're right--maybe Francis isn't the best out there. But here's what I do know--he was one HELL of a lot more accurate on the JUCOs than you ever were.
Quote from: The Equalizer on December 22, 2013, 05:28:19 PM
Look--you've been wrong about our JUCO's for five years. You're still trying to pass them off as a bunch of talentless hacks that no D1 team in the country would recruit (last week you still were calling them not as good as the HS top 500).
And maybe you're right--maybe Francis isn't the best out there. But here's what I do know--he was one HELL of a lot more accurate on the JUCOs than you ever were.
What I said about JFB and Jae Crowder: they were not ranked in the top 500 high school basketball players in their senior class. What I said about Dwight Buycks and DJO: nothing
What equalizer/84 says I said about all of them: they are talentless hacks that no D1 team in the country would recruit, not as good as the high school top 500.
What is true: JFB and Jae Crowder were not ranked in the top 500 high school basketball players in their senior class.
What is a lie: what e/84 says I said about Jimmy, Jae, Dwight and DJO.
Quote from: The Equalizer on December 22, 2013, 05:28:19 PM
Look--you've been wrong about our JUCO's for five years. You're still trying to pass them off as a bunch of talentless hacks that no D1 team in the country would recruit (last week you still were calling them not as good as the HS top 500).
And maybe you're right--maybe Francis isn't the best out there. But here's what I do know--he was one HELL of a lot more accurate on the JUCOs than you ever were.
http://www.youtube.com/v/sVSfcWUxu_Q
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 22, 2013, 07:42:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/sVSfcWUxu_Q
I love it when your "objective" little buddy makes up a bunch of lies and you get all woody over it. LOL. Makes you almost as giddy as IU beating Nichols State or Marquette losing to anybody.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 22, 2013, 07:16:54 PM
What I said about JFB and Jae Crowder: they were not ranked in the top 500 high school basketball players in their senior class. What I said about Dwight Buycks and DJO: nothing
What equalizer/84 says I said about all of them: they are talentless hacks that no D1 team in the country would recruit, not as good as the high school top 500.
What is true: JFB and Jae Crowder were not ranked in the top 500 high school basketball players in their senior class.
What is a lie: what e/84 says I said about Jimmy, Jae, Dwight and DJO.
Your posts the other day implied...CLEARLY...that these guys were not even top 500 high school players and look what Buzz and MU did to make them into the NBA players they became. Please. You know, everyone knows it. They were damn good players prior to them stepping one foot on MU's campus and the top 500 stuff was merely one part of the story to make your point, but the lack of the reality of how good they really were was totally left out. You made that comment and ignored the fact that they were offered by Kentucky, Georgia, Baylor, etc, etc, or the fact they were very highly regarded JUCO players. Maybe it slipped your mind, age can do that.
Buzz and MU did a very nice job with those guys, just as those guys did a very nice job with themselves and worked their butts off. Let's not make it out to be these guys weren't even top 500 high school players and became NBA players and skipping everything in between...which is what you did and that's why 84 was calling you out on it. And, looks like Francis got it right, those guys were regarded highly and he rated them accordingly.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 22, 2013, 08:06:13 PM
Your posts the other day implied...CLEARLY...that these guys were not even top 500 high school players and look what Buzz and MU did to make them into the NBA players they became.
I didn't IMPLY that Jimmy and Jae weren't ranked as top 500 high school players. I stated the FACT that they weren't. And they weren't on your alleged buddy's (or anyone else's) NBA draft board entering their senior year. So hats off to them and hats off to Buzz for getting it done against long odds. CLEARLY they all deserve kudos.
Buycks and DJO, too, whom the dishonest one claims I ripped when I never even mentioned them.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 22, 2013, 07:16:54 PM
What I said about JFB and Jae Crowder:
Yous Mbao and Brett Roseboro were in the top 350. So you're said a couple of our JUCOS had less talent than they did by a fair margin--over 150 places lower.
I attrubted the phrase "talentless hack" to players rated that low. Note that it wasn't a direct quote of yours. Please forgive the literary license taken.
Let the record show you didn't use the words "talentless hacks", but also show that the phrase is not inaccurate for players rated that low.
The TRUTH that you have for YEARS been trying to pretend that the JUCOs that Buzz recruited weren't very good. You tried again just last week, by citing their HS rank rather than their JUCO rank.
The FACT is that you were well aware that Butler and Crowder were highly ranked JUCOs when Buzz recruited them.
It is a FACT that the one person who bothers to compare JUCO and HS recruits on the same scale says that Butler was eqivalent to a top 70 player HS player and Crowder was equivalent to a top 40 HS player.
NOTHING in the body of work of either Butler or Crowder suggests his judgement was off the mark--and EVERYTING in their body of work suggests that that evaluation was 100% on the money.
Its a LIE every time you continue to say that Buzz got them as HS kids that weren't in the top 500.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 22, 2013, 08:31:43 PM
I didn't IMPLY that Jimmy and Jae weren't ranked as top 500 high school players. I stated the FACT that they weren't.
Perhaps you've forgotten what you
actually said the other day. Referring to Buzz you said:
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 09, 2013, 03:06:20 PM
Yeah, the guy who turned two non top 500 high school guys into first round NBA draft picks doesn't know about "progressing young men".
Calling them "two non top 500 high school guys" when you know for a fact that statement no longer accurately describes their talent level is a lie of omission. You knowningly misrepresented them by ignoring their JUCO achievements.
And then saying that Buzz coached them from that point is just a flatout falsehood. Complete and utter lie.
The accurate representation here is that their respective JUCO coaches turned them from two non-top 500 HS guys into legit high-major D1 talent--equivlent to top 70 (Butler) or top 40 (Crowder) HS players.
Buzz's role was to continue that development to get them to the NBA.
Quote from: The Equalizer on December 22, 2013, 09:13:01 PM
Perhaps you've forgotten what you actually said the other day. Referring to Buzz you said:
Calling them "two non top 500 high school guys" when you know for a fact that statement no longer accurately describes their talent level is a lie of omission. You knowningly misrepresented them by ignoring their JUCO achievements.
And then saying that Buzz coached them from that point is just a flatout falsehood. Complete and utter lie.
The accurate representation here is that their respective JUCO coaches turned them from two non-top 500 HS guys into legit high-major D1 talent--equivlent to top 70 (Butler) or top 40 (Crowder) HS players.
Buzz's role was to continue that development to get them to the NBA.
Eloquent
Quote from: The Equalizer on December 22, 2013, 08:41:41 PM
Its a LIE every time you continue to say that Buzz got them as HS kids that weren't in the top 500.
Continue to say that Buzz got them as high school kids? I've NEVER said Buzz got them as high school kids. EVER. But keep operating on the premise that if you repeat a big lie often and loud enough some will be foolish enough to fall for it. Some will even be foolish enough to call the lie eloquent.
Quote from: The Equalizer on December 22, 2013, 09:13:01 PM
Calling them "two non top 500 high school guys" when you know for a fact that statement no longer accurately describes their talent level is a lie of omission. You knowningly misrepresented them by ignoring their JUCO achievements.
Again, I never said that they were still at a sub 500 level when they got to MU. But they were once. That's a fact, no matter how much you don't like it. And when they got to Marquette they were still north of 1000-1 shots to make the NBA. Good for them. Good for Buzz.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 22, 2013, 09:44:10 PM
Continue to say that Buzz got them as high school kids? I've NEVER said Buzz got them as high school kids. EVER. But keep operating on the premise that if you repeat a big lie often and loud enough some will be foolish enough to fall for it. Some will even be foolish enough to call the lie eloquent.
Oooo....lord knows Equalizer is sitting in his cabin in Montana working up a 500 word response to this.
JJJ and Burton should be playing more.
Dawson should be playing in general.
4 DNPs and a 1 min wisconsin game for him all losses for MU... Not saying hes the answer but we all love stats theres one.
Even Jameel McKay saw this coming and got out of town fast cant blame him either
People always saying Earn this Earn that.
Blah blah blah.....
Marquette certainly doesnt have any world beaters starting or getting lions share minutes.
For Dawson I wouldnt blame him if he left MU who wants to be stacking up DNPs behind wilson whos getting over 30 MPG whos play is atrocious.
He couldn't even get the kid in for 1 Min in the UNM Game i read his whole family was there is nuts.
This teams best talent usually is on the sidelines watching the game and were NIT bound at best.
Hey, when you are on the side of Jameel McKay, you must have a winning argument.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 22, 2013, 09:56:16 PM
Again, I never said that they were still at a sub 500 level when they got to MU.
You most certainly did.
Once again, let me remind you what you
actually said:
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 09, 2013, 03:06:20 PM
Yeah, the guy who turned two non top 500 high school guys into first round NBA draft picks doesn't know about "progressing young men".
That's pretty clear to me. You're saying they were still non-top-500 HS guys when Buzz started working with them.
As I said, the accurate statement is that their respective JUCO coaches turned them from non-top-500 HS kids into JUCO All Americans--the equivalent of top 100 HS players. Buzz then turned two JUCO AAs (one equivalent to a 11-40 ranked HS player, the other equivalent to 41-70 rank) into NBA players.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 22, 2013, 09:56:16 PM
Again, I never said that they were still at a sub 500 level when they got to MU. But they were once. That's a fact, no matter how much you don't like it. And when they got to Marquette they were still north of 1000-1 shots to make the NBA. Good for them. Good for Buzz.
I don't recall anyone denying that some rating service(s) said they are north of 500 as high school players. You're missing the point.....they were damn good players as JUCOs and rated so accordingly, but you want to make it appear that they are tagged and envisioned as sub 500 players and completely skip their accomplishments and ratings prior to coming to MU. It's like you've redacted their resume to make a silly point that isn't even a point to be made because the fact remains, these were very good players offered by high major programs. As for the 1000-1 claim, pure conjecture on your part...you may be right, but that is a number totally pulled out of thin air.
84 made the case, he is right in this one and he eloquently stated it. No lies like you claim. Sometimes you are right, and you have no problem telling people (just as I don't). So lick your wounds on this one, you can come back to battle later today.
Quote from: The Equalizer on December 22, 2013, 08:41:41 PM
I attrubted the phrase "talentless hack" to players rated that low. Note that it wasn't a direct quote of yours. Please forgive the literary license taken.
Let the record show you didn't use the words "talentless hacks", but also show that the phrase is not inaccurate for players rated that low.
YOU are the one claiming guys ranked sub 500 out of high school (like Butler and Crowder) are accurately deemed "talentless hacks", not me. That's YOUR characterization, not mine.
I think they were loaded with undiscovered and undeveloped talent.
But keep accusing me of things I never said or even thought. And keep attributing your own inaccurate assessment of those guys' talent to me. At least one guy will find the lies eloquent.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 22, 2013, 10:03:35 AM
None of them are transferring.
Last year, over 1.5 transfers occurred per every single program in D1. It is very, very likely that at least one will eventually depart.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 23, 2013, 10:25:09 AM
YOU are the one claiming guys ranked sub 500 out of high school (like Butler and Crowder) are accurately deemed "talentless hacks", not me. That's YOUR characterization, not mine.
Yeah. So? I already addreesd this. Its funny--one post you're trying to say how bad they were (ranking worse than 500 which is well worse that Roseboro or Mbao). The next you're offended because I use different words that mean essentialy the same thing.
Nobody buying your feigned outrage here. We all know you're trying to misdirect away from your own lies about them being HS players that Buzz developed.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 23, 2013, 10:25:09 AM
I think they were loaded with undiscovered and undeveloped talent.
Really? I seriously doubt it.
I don't think you had a clue who as to who these players were in HS or how much undiscovered and undeveloped talent they had. You're just applying 20/20 hindsight.
Anyone can pick the longshots if you place your bet after the races are run.
I think what happened is after Buzz signed them as JUCO AAs you did some ex-post-facto research, found they weren't very good in HS, and then started to misrepresent them as lowly ranked HS players instead of the JUCO AAs they were when Buzz signed them.
I think you did this becuase you wanted to artifically inflate Buzz's contribution to their development or sandbag Butlers or Crowder's baseline.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 23, 2013, 10:25:09 AM
But keep accusing me of things I never said or even thought. And keep attributing your own inaccurate assessment of those guys' talent to me. At least one guy will find the lies eloquent.
Except you DID say that Buzz developd two sub 500 players into the NBA draft.
Thus, I'm accusing you of misrepresenting Crowder and Butler as being sub 500 high school students that Buzz developed, when we all know they were already JUCO AAs before they even stepped foot on campus.
Quote from: The Equalizer on December 23, 2013, 09:07:29 AM
That's pretty clear to me. You're saying they were still non-top-500 HS guys when Buzz started working with them.
"Still" non top 500 high school guys when Buzz started working with them? They are "still" non top 500 high school guys TODAY. And will "still" be non top 500 high school guys when someone writes their obituary. That's just a fact of their life and history that will ALWAYS be true. If you finished last in your high school graduating class and end up with a degree from Harvard it doesn't change the fact that you finished last in your high school graduating class. I know that Jimmy was one year removed and Jae two years removed from those ranking when they arrived at MU. Never, ever, not one time said they weren't. And they had improved a lot in those one or two years. And THEY deserve the lions share of the credit for making the association. But EVERYTHING I said is still true and factual. Your making up extra stuff I never said or altering what I said to fit what you want to infer from what I said can't and won't change that. You and Chicos want to keep flinging around the lies, go ahead. Fish gotta swim.
Quote from: The Equalizer on December 23, 2013, 11:15:40 AM
Except you DID say that Buzz developd two sub 500 players into the NBA draft.
Were they sub 500 players out of high school? Yes.
Did Buzz develop them into them into first round NBA draft picks? Yes.
So what I said was 100% true. End of story, except you want to write a doctoral dissertation on what you think I said based on your biased predispositions. You better hope that your mentor who grades it is your buddy. Otherwise it'll end up in the garbage where it belongs.
Quote from: Nevada233 on December 23, 2013, 06:25:01 AM
JJJ and Burton should be playing more.
Dawson should be playing in general.
4 DNPs and a 1 min wisconsin game for him all losses for MU... Not saying hes the answer but we all love stats theres one.
Even Jameel McKay saw this coming and got out of town fast cant blame him either
People always saying Earn this Earn that.
Blah blah blah.....
Marquette certainly doesnt have any world beaters starting or getting lions share minutes.
For Dawson I wouldnt blame him if he left MU who wants to be stacking up DNPs behind wilson whos getting over 30 MPG whos play is atrocious.
He couldn't even get the kid in for 1 Min in the UNM Game i read his whole family was there is nuts.
This teams best talent usually is on the sidelines watching the game and were NIT bound at best.
+1 Million
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 23, 2013, 11:35:06 AM
"Still" non top 500 high school guys when Buzz started working with them? They are "still" non top 500 high school guys TODAY. And will "still" be non top 500 high school guys when someone writes their obituary. That's just a fact of their life and history that will ALWAYS be true. If you finished last in your high school graduating class and end up with a degree from Harvard it doesn't change the fact that you finished last in your high school graduating class. I know that Jimmy was one year removed and Jae two years removed from those ranking when they arrived at MU. Never, ever, not one time said they weren't. And they had improved a lot in those one or two years. And THEY deserve the lions share of the credit for making the association. But EVERYTHING I said is still true and factual. Your making up extra stuff I never said or altering what I said to fit what you want to infer from what I said can't and won't change that. You and Chicos want to keep flinging around the lies, go ahead. Fish gotta swim.
Its a lie of omission to fail to include their JUCO achievements.
Quote from: The Equalizer on December 23, 2013, 12:44:51 PM
Its a lie of omission to fail to include their JUCO achievements.
No it isn't a lie of omission. It is simply an omission.
Quote from: Nevada233 on December 23, 2013, 06:25:01 AM
JJJ and Burton should be playing more.
Dawson should be playing in general.
4 DNPs and a 1 min wisconsin game for him all losses for MU... Not saying hes the answer but we all love stats theres one.
Marquette is 5-0 when Dylan Flood plays! Start him!
Quote from: Nevada233 on December 23, 2013, 06:25:01 AM
Even Jameel McKay saw this coming and got out of town fast cant blame him either
People always saying Earn this Earn that.
Blah blah blah.....
Marquette certainly doesnt have any world beaters starting or getting lions share minutes.
For Dawson I wouldnt blame him if he left MU who wants to be stacking up DNPs behind wilson whos getting over 30 MPG whos play is atrocious.
He couldn't even get the kid in for 1 Min in the UNM Game i read his whole family was there is nuts.
This teams best talent usually is on the sidelines watching the game and were NIT bound at best.
Hang on a second...You don't think that players should have to earn their minutes? And you think that Buzz should have played John Dawson simply because his family was in the stands? You realize that Marquette is a high-revenue, major college basketball program and not a middle school traveling team, right? Do you think Buzz should have two teams of 5 and rotate them into the game every 5 minutes? Should Jamie McNeilly be in charge of juice boxes and orange slices?
You can make a case for JJJ or Mayo starting over Thomas.
But that's about it. Unless you really want to mess up the line up by starting Jamil at PG, there really is no reason why anyone else should be starting. Perhaps more minutes? But starting? No.
And I think people have to come to grips with the fact that we were simply overrated coming into the year. Playing a bunch of freshmen isn't going to get this team winning more games.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 23, 2013, 12:48:49 PM
No it isn't a lie of omission. It is simply an omission.
It is when you try to turn around and credit Buzz for coaching them from that point to the NBA.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 23, 2013, 12:59:42 PM
You can make a case for JJJ or Mayo starting over Thomas.
But that's about it. Unless you really want to mess up the line up by starting Jamil at PG, there really is no reason why anyone else should be starting. Perhaps more minutes? But starting? No.
And I think people have to come to grips with the fact that we were simply overrated coming into the year. Playing a bunch of freshmen isn't going to get this team winning more games.
Come on, Sultan! We all know that, much like redshirting, throwing freshmen into the mix before they're ready is a surefire way to guarantee that they improve exponentially.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 23, 2013, 12:48:49 PM
No it isn't a lie of omission. It is simply an omission.
For which Mr. Lenny was often upset at other posters for omitting (with intent or without) in the past. ;)
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=33422.msg406650#msg406650
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=12527.msg111756#msg111756
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=20522.msg214545#msg214545
Maybe posters are having the same concerns Lenny did in the past on omissions.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 23, 2013, 01:06:50 PM
Come on, Sultan! We all know that, much like redshirting, throwing freshmen into the mix before they're ready is a surefire way to guarantee that they improve exponentially.
Yeah - it sure didn't work well for Wes, Rel, and Dom or Key, Mac, or Logterman....
Quote from: Ners on December 23, 2013, 02:44:55 PM
Yeah - it sure didn't work well for Wes, Rel, and Dom or Key, Mac, or Logterman....
The key phrase being "before they're ready."
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 23, 2013, 02:26:39 PM
For which Mr. Lenny was often upset at other posters for omitting (with intent or without) in the past. ;)
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=33422.msg406650#msg406650
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=12527.msg111756#msg111756
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=20522.msg214545#msg214545
Maybe posters are having the same concerns Lenny did in the past on omissions.
In Example #1 Pakuni quoted me as saying someone should be fired when my direct quote was "fired or suspended". So, a misquote that changes the meaning.
In example #2 84/Equalizer omits part of his own quote to alter its meaning.
I don't get any point on example #3.
I didn't misquote 84 here. And I didn't omit quotes of mine. HE was the one making up stuff (I never called Butler and Crowder talentless stiffs - HE's the guy who characterizes guys who don't make the top 500 in high school as such, not me). And HE's the one deciding (incorrectly) that my quotes mean more than what they say instead of exactly what they say. And you think that all the lies, misquotes and seeing things that aren't there and never were there amount to eloquence. You two really do deserve one another.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 23, 2013, 02:49:49 PM
The key phrase being "before they're ready."
Exactly. And as others have pointed out, because of the type of defense that Buzz prefers, it takes awhile for this guys to pick it up. Crean had a simpler scheme.
BTW, good post on IWB's board about the point guard play. Pretty much saying that due to the nature of Buzz's motion offense, that even though Dawson has more natural ability, that the Wilsons have a much better grasp of what exactly needs to be done and when. (This guy is a basketball coach BTW...not Murff.)
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 23, 2013, 12:54:15 PM
Marquette is 5-0 when Dylan Flood plays! Start him!
Hang on a second...You don't think that players should have to earn their minutes? And you think that Buzz should have played John Dawson simply because his family was in the stands? You realize that Marquette is a high-revenue, major college basketball program and not a middle school traveling team, right? Do you think Buzz should have two teams of 5 and rotate them into the game every 5 minutes? Should Jamie McNeilly be in charge of juice boxes and orange slices?
+1000!! Absolutely correct. The idea that a player should not have to earn his minutes is one of the sillier concepts I have seen. Maybe if I make a big contribution to the sports dept. at "X University", my son will become a starter.
And the poll with Dawson leading the list as a likely transfer is just as silly. Have we really gotten to the point where if a 2-star isn't starting as a freshman at one of the top 25 programs in the country, he should quit and try somewhere else. Do people really think he was expecting to get big minutes as a freshman?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 23, 2013, 02:49:49 PM
The key phrase being "before they're ready."
Look, you could make a case that Dom, Rel, Wes, Key, Mac, Logterman were no more ready than JJJ, Burton, DuWilson, Dawson - JJJ, Burton, DuWilson were all rated as high as any of the above guys.
It benefitted the MU program over the next 3 years of the above named freshman, that they got a lot of game experience, and they all went on to have nice careers. Didn't ruin their confidence a bit. You get better by playing in games. The "ceiling" for Derrick and Jake (to an extent) is quite low.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 23, 2013, 04:07:22 PM
Exactly. And as others have pointed out, because of the type of defense that Buzz prefers, it takes awhile for this guys to pick it up. Crean had a simpler scheme.
What happened to adapting his strategy to fit his personnel, something he's done well many times before? This year it's his way or be lumped into the "didn't earn it" excuse, talent be damned?
Quote from: Ners on December 23, 2013, 04:56:11 PM
Look, you could make a case that Dom, Rel, Wes, Key, Mac, Logterman were no more ready than JJJ, Burton, DuWilson, Dawson - JJJ, Burton, DuWilson were all rated as high as any of the above guys.
It benefitted the MU program over the next 3 years of the above named freshman, that they got a lot of game experience, and they all went on to have nice careers. Didn't ruin their confidence a bit. You get better by playing in games. The "ceiling" for Derrick and Jake (to an extent) is quite low.
Preach!! +1000
Quote from: chapman on December 23, 2013, 05:09:15 PM
What happened to adapting his strategy to fit his personnel, something he's done well many times before? This year it's his way or be lumped into the "didn't earn it" excuse, talent be damned?
That's right!! Our highly successful coach needs to change what he does because us fans, who really don't know any better, DEMAND IT!!!
Quote from: Ners on December 23, 2013, 04:56:11 PM
Look, you could make a case that Dom, Rel, Wes, Key, Mac, Logterman were no more ready than JJJ, Burton, DuWilson, Dawson.
How do you know this?
Quote from: Ners on December 23, 2013, 04:56:11 PM
Look, you could make a case that Dom, Rel, Wes, Key, Mac, Logterman were no more ready than JJJ, Burton, DuWilson, Dawson - JJJ, Burton, DuWilson were all rated as high as any of the above guys.
It benefitted the MU program over the next 3 years of the above named freshman, that they got a lot of game experience, and they all went on to have nice careers. Didn't ruin their confidence a bit. You get better by playing in games. The "ceiling" for Derrick and Jake (to an extent) is quite low.
Here's the problem: let's say Buzz lands another great recruiting class in 2 years.
Are we then going to be begging to see those guys because we all know what JJJ's ceiling is?
College basketball is in a constant state of change. A coach can't completely ignore the future, but for most programs, the future is uncertain enough that you need to plan for your immediate goals... not 2 years from now.
Now, if the frosh. are better than the upperclassmen, then by all means, they should play. I do find Buzz's rotations a little curious, but I figure there is a method to his madness.
Quote from: Ners on December 23, 2013, 04:56:11 PM
Look, you could make a case that Dom, Rel, Wes, Key, Mac, Logterman were no more ready than JJJ, Burton, DuWilson, Dawson - JJJ, Burton, DuWilson were all rated as high as any of the above guys.
It benefitted the MU program over the next 3 years of the above named freshman, that they got a lot of game experience, and they all went on to have nice careers. Didn't ruin their confidence a bit. You get better by playing in games. The "ceiling" for Derrick and Jake (to an extent) is quite low.
Well, Dom, Rel and Wes didn't win an NCAA tourney game until their junior year and two in their entire career. Key, Mac and Logterman went 11-18 their freshman year and didn't win an NCAA game until they were seniors. Is that what we're hoping for? I know this year is off to a poor start but the current coach has nearly twice as many NCAA wins in 3 years with his own guys (7) as those guys had in 8 years (4).
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 23, 2013, 03:12:45 PM
I didn't misquote 84 here. And I didn't omit quotes of mine. HE was the one making up stuff (I never called Butler and Crowder talentless stiffs - HE's the guy who characterizes guys who don't make the top 500 in high school as such, not me).
Can you explain your outrage over this?
If you're willing to trash Crowder and Butler's JUCO accomplishments by referring to them as "non top 500 high school guys", why are so upset about the term "talentless hack"? At one point you even used the word "dregs" to describe the recruiting pool that Butler was part of.
Its not like you're complementing them on their High School accomplishments. You're trying to talk them down so you can pretend Buzz's coaching played a larger role than it did.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 23, 2013, 03:12:45 PM
And HE's the one deciding (incorrectly) that my quotes mean more than what they say instead of exactly what they say. And you think that all the lies, misquotes and seeing things that aren't there and never were there amount to eloquence. You two really do deserve one another.
Lenny, your quote is intentionally misleading. Your sophomoric attempt to justify it by claiming that high school kids stay that way forever fools no one. And leaving out an important fact to lead mislead is a lie of omission.
And the sad part here is that every time you repeat that statement, you demean the accomplishments of Jimmy Butler and Jae Crowder and their coaches at their respective junior colleges.
For some odd reason, its not enough for you to accurately say Buzz Williams coached two JUCO AAs to the NBA.
For years, you have been demeaning the accomplishments of Jimmy and Jae and their JUCO coaches in order to artificially inflate Buzz's role in their development.
But you know what? I don't think Buzz himself would buy your statement.
I think he'd be the first one to point out Jae and Jimmy showed tremendous development between High School and Marquette, and that he doesn't deserve any of the credit for that. And I think he'd call you out on leaving that part out of your quote.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on December 23, 2013, 05:24:27 PM
Here's the problem: let's say Buzz lands another great recruiting class in 2 years.
Are we then going to be begging to see those guys because we all know what JJJ's ceiling is?
College basketball is in a constant state of change. A coach can't completely ignore the future, but for most programs, the future is uncertain enough that you need to plan for your immediate goals... not 2 years from now.
Now, if the frosh. are better than the upperclassmen, then by all means, they should play. I do find Buzz's rotations a little curious, but I figure there is a method to his madness.
Well if JJJ as a junior or senior is averaging 5 points a game on 35% shooting, and has made 1 3pt bucket through 11 games, or has made 19 3 pointers, and just 1 2 point FG - yes, I'd want to see the highly touted freshman more. If after almost 3 years in the program, all you can achieve is the above? Yea, sign me up for seeing what the great recruiting class can do.
Quote from: Ners on December 23, 2013, 08:55:27 PM
Well if JJJ as a junior or senior is averaging 5 points a game on 35% shooting, and has made 1 3pt bucket through 11 games, or has made 19 3 pointers, and just 1 2 point FG - yes, I'd want to see the highly touted freshman more. If after almost 3 years in the program, all you can achieve is the above? Yea, sign me up for seeing what the great recruiting class can do.
Of course you fail to mention that JJJ plays a completely different position than the guy you mention... ::)
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 23, 2013, 10:01:23 PM
Of course you fail to mention that JJJ plays a completely different position than the guy you mention... ::)
Do you just like to argue to argue - or is it simply that you don't have a good point to make with any logical basis, so you resort to the above?
FYI - JJJ is considered a 2 guard - kinda like the guy who has made 1, 2pt field goal all year and 19 3's - that I mentioned in my post. Of course you fail to read and comprehend that point as you do many here.
Quote from: Ners on December 23, 2013, 10:18:58 PM
Do you just like to argue to argue - or is it simply that you don't have a good point to make with any logical basis, so you resort to the above?
You bring up a player that you continuously harp on....one that plays a completely different position and you ask if *I* like to argue?
Make a relevant argument dude. Don't just ride the same one-trick pony you always do.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 23, 2013, 10:28:11 PM
You bring up a player that you continuously harp on....one that plays a completely different position and you ask if *I* like to argue?
Make a relevant argument dude. Don't just ride the same one-trick pony you always do.
Ahh what part of the below comparison to our current 2 guard (JJJ's position) do you not grasp?? I usually find you at least somewhat intelligent at minimum, but in this case, you are even making me doubt that.
Quote from: Ners on December 23, 2013, 08:55:27 PM
Well if JJJ as a junior or senior is averaging 5 points a game on 35% shooting, and has made 1 3pt bucket through 11 games, or has made 19 3 pointers, and just 1 2 point FG - yes, I'd want to see the highly touted freshman more. If after almost 3 years in the program, all you can achieve is the above? Yea, sign me up for seeing what the great recruiting class can do.
Nm
Quote from: Ners on December 23, 2013, 08:55:27 PM
Well if JJJ as a junior or senior is averaging 5 points a game on 35% shooting, and has made 1 3pt bucket through 11 games, or has made 19 3 pointers, and just 1 2 point FG - yes, I'd want to see the highly touted freshman more. If after almost 3 years in the program, all you can achieve is the above? Yea, sign me up for seeing what the great recruiting class can do.
The best guys should play. I've got no problem with that.
However, is there a magic age on when we know a player's ceiling? Jae Crowder was a far better player as a senior than he was as a junior. Is it conceivable that Derrick Wilson could continue to improve this year and next? What about Todd? Do we know his ceiling? He'll be 23 by the end of the season.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on December 24, 2013, 08:22:17 AM
The best guys should play. I've got no problem with that.
However, is there a magic age on when we know a player's ceiling? Jae Crowder was a far better player as a senior than he was as a junior. Is it conceivable that Derrick Wilson could continue to improve this year and next? What about Todd? Do we know his ceiling? He'll be 23 by the end of the season.
I think every player improves on a case by case basis. Crowder flashed potential and had a skill set that could be developed. Derrick not so much... A 6 ft pg with no shot or ability to create for others will never improve enough to not be an offensive liability. I hope I'm dead wrong, I believe 100% that I am right though.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on December 24, 2013, 08:22:17 AM
The best guys should play. I've got no problem with that.
However, is there a magic age on when we know a player's ceiling? Jae Crowder was a far better player as a senior than he was as a junior. Is it conceivable that Derrick Wilson could continue to improve this year and next? What about Todd? Do we know his ceiling? He'll be 23 by the end of the season.
The deal is this - With Mayo, for example, he showed us flashes of great potential is freshman year - you saw real potential - sophomore year was a total throwaway/dog house year....and I still don't think we've seen the best of Todd - he needs to be out there a consistent 30 minutes a game to see full potential, and he would likely contend for top scoring honors on the team.
I just honestly can't say I've seen any flashes of potential in Derrick as a freshman/sophomore beyond solid defense - that make me think he's a starting caliber high major point guard - think he's a good back up. Dawson, on the other hand, has shown me flashes of potential and a great feel for the game - he very well may not be any better shooter than Derrick at this time - but he definitely sees the floor better and is more creative/aggressive with the ball....which is why I keep saying his ceiling is higher..
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 23, 2013, 08:50:04 PM
But you know what? I don't think Buzz himself would buy your statement.
I think he'd be the first one to point out Jae and Jimmy showed tremendous development between High School and Marquette, and that he doesn't deserve any of the credit for that. And I think he'd call you out on leaving that part out of your quote.
Really? I've heard Buzz say on more than one occasion that Jimmy Butler wasn't even rated in the top 100 high school seniors in TEXAS, let alone the top 500 in the USA. Be sure to drop him a line and tell him he should feel demeaned. He 'll get a good laugh. Look, it's just a fact, part of his history. Same with Jae. They're justifiably proud that they came so far, not demeaned. They would, though, surely be insulted by you calling them talentless hacks.
I don't know how much credit Jimmy and Jae's juco coaches should get for turning them into NBA first round picks. You want to give them the lion's share, fine. I give the players themselves most of the credit. Then Buzz. The JC guys are a very distant third IMO.
Merry Christmas.
Quote from: Ners on December 24, 2013, 10:03:37 AM
The deal is this - With Mayo, for example, he showed us flashes of great potential is freshman year - you saw real potential - sophomore year was a total throwaway/dog house year....and I still don't think we've seen the best of Todd - he needs to be out there a consistent 30 minutes a game to see full potential, and he would likely contend for top scoring honors on the team.
Mayo is a great example of trying to figure out a player's ceiling. Some fans recall the "flashes" that he showed his freshman year, particularly early on, and think that the best is yet to come. Others think back to Mayo as a freshman and, two years later, he doesn't look like a much different player (i.e. he's at his ceiling).
That's part of what makes coaching and recruiting such an inexact science. Coaches need to look at 15-17yo kids and try to project how much they'll improve by age 20. Some HS All-Americans have peaked by the time they get to college while others go from lightly-regarded recruits to lottery picks.
I really feel like the major issue facing this year's Marquette team is that the upperclassmen have all hit their ceilings. Jamil, Gardner, Otule, Mayo, Juan, Jake, Derrick - all of them are what they are. None of them have made that big Lazar/Butler/DJO/Crowder/Blue-type jump that we've come to expect from MU players. I don't say that as a knock on these young men. They're incredibly talented players, but they've maxed out.
Quote from: Ners on December 24, 2013, 10:03:37 AM
I just honestly can't say I've seen any flashes of potential in Derrick as a freshman/sophomore beyond solid defense - that make me think he's a starting caliber high major point guard - think he's a good back up. Dawson, on the other hand, has shown me flashes of potential and a great feel for the game - he very well may not be any better shooter than Derrick at this time - but he definitely sees the floor better and is more creative/aggressive with the ball....which is why I keep saying his ceiling is higher..
What's amazing about Dawson and Derrick is that, if you extrapolate Dawson's stats to match Derrick's minutes (admittedly, not exactly apples to apples), they're virtually identical in several areas.
Derrick (in 350 minutes): 56 FGA, 49 asts, 49 rebounds, 18 TOs, 9 steals
Dawson (extrapolated to 350 minutes): 54 FGA, 49 asts, 40 rebounds, 18 TOs, 9 steals
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 24, 2013, 10:37:25 AM
What's amazing about Dawson and Derrick is that, if you extrapolate Dawson's stats to match Derrick's minutes (admittedly, not exactly apples to apples), they're virtually identical in several areas.
Derrick (in 350 minutes): 56 FGA, 49 asts, 49 rebounds, 18 TOs, 9 steals
Dawson (extrapolated to 350 minutes): 54 FGA, 49 asts, 40 rebounds, 18 TOs, 9 steals
Wow - pretty crazy! The issue to me though, is that Derrick has been in the program for almost 3 years now, and this is his production. Just don't feel there would be much drop off, if any, if Dawson took over the reins, and there might potentially be improvement. I just think the game has been a lot harder this year for Devante and Jamil, largely due to the backcourt issues we have - which can also explain them not taking a big step forward this year compared to last...
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 24, 2013, 10:37:25 AM
What's amazing about Dawson and Derrick is that, if you extrapolate Dawson's stats to match Derrick's minutes (admittedly, not exactly apples to apples), they're virtually identical in several areas.
Derrick (in 350 minutes): 56 FGA, 49 asts, 49 rebounds, 18 TOs, 9 steals
Dawson (extrapolated to 350 minutes): 54 FGA, 49 asts, 40 rebounds, 18 TOs, 9 steals
Try the extrapolation the other way--what did Derrick's first X minutes look like (X is the total number of minutes played by Dawson). Obviously, not even close to a perfect comparison, as there are many things to control for. But it at least gives some preliminary finding.
Quote from: Ners on December 24, 2013, 11:11:24 AM
Wow - pretty crazy! The issue to me though, is that Derrick has been in the program for almost 3 years now, and this is his production. Just don't feel there would be much drop off, if any, if Dawson took over the reins, and there might potentially be improvement. I just think the game has been a lot harder this year for Devante and Jamil, largely due to the backcourt issues we have - which can also explain them not taking a big step forward this year compared to last...
Before you make that jump, I did leave out points and FG% where, believe it or not, Derrick has a significant advantage.
Derrick: 63 points, 39.3% shooting
Dawson (extrapolated): 27 points, 16.7% shooting
Obviously shooting % doesn't change when extrapolating and Dawson would presumably get better looks playing extended minutes (i.e. higher FG%), but he has yet to prove that he can score (6 points in 78 minutes and 8 of his 12 FGA are 3s). Also, worth nothing that Derrick has shot nearly 45% since the OSU game (1-9 prior to that).
You'd also need to consider that Dawson doesn't really run the point when he's in the game and Derrick is a better defender. I wasn't necessarily trying to prove anything, one way or the other with the extrapolations. I just found it interesting.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 24, 2013, 11:21:51 AM
Before you make that jump, I did leave out points and FG% where, believe it or not, Derrick has a significant advantage.
Derrick: 63 points, 39.3% shooting
Dawson (extrapolated): 27 points, 16.7% shooting
Obviously shooting % doesn't change when extrapolating and Dawson would presumably get better looks playing extended minutes (i.e. higher FG%), but he has yet to prove that he can score (6 points in 78 minutes and 8 of his 12 FGA are 3s). Also, worth nothing that Derrick has shot nearly 45% since the OSU game (1-9 prior to that).
You'd also need to consider that Dawson doesn't really run the point when he's in the game and Derrick is a better defender. I wasn't necessarily trying to prove anything, one way or the other with the extrapolations. I just found it interesting.
Good stuff....and I wouldn't have thought Derrick has shot 45% since OSU - it is telling, however, as to what he's shot against the 4 best teams we've played...
For whatever reason, Buzz just must not have confidence in Dawson running the point - as he has been playing more off the ball in his minutes he's gotten. Puzzling to me when we see him and Jamil in game and Jamil running the point...
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 23, 2013, 03:12:45 PM
In Example #1 Pakuni quoted me as saying someone should be fired when my direct quote was "fired or suspended". So, a misquote that changes the meaning.
In example #2 84/Equalizer omits part of his own quote to alter its meaning.
I don't get any point on example #3.
I didn't misquote 84 here. And I didn't omit quotes of mine. HE was the one making up stuff (I never called Butler and Crowder talentless stiffs - HE's the guy who characterizes guys who don't make the top 500 in high school as such, not me). And HE's the one deciding (incorrectly) that my quotes mean more than what they say instead of exactly what they say. And you think that all the lies, misquotes and seeing things that aren't there and never were there amount to eloquence. You two really do deserve one another.
We'll agree to disagree...seems to me that you were hanging on to non top 500 HS player as the only descriptor of those players. He was pointing out that those players were very good and the descriptor that they were not top 500 HS players was not accurate WHEN you factor in that they played at a very high level at the JUCO ranks.
It would sort of be like saying Michael Jordan didn't make his high school Varsity team as a sophomore (he was on JV) and then saying Dean Smith made him into the player he became....it skips that part about Michael Jordan making his high school team the rest of his years and playing at an incredible level which made him one of the most sought after high school seniors in the country.
IMO, that is the disconnect on this.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 24, 2013, 10:37:25 AM
What's amazing about Dawson and Derrick is that, if you extrapolate Dawson's stats to match Derrick's minutes (admittedly, not exactly apples to apples), they're virtually identical in several areas.
Derrick (in 350 minutes): 56 FGA, 49 asts, 49 rebounds, 18 TOs, 9 steals
Dawson (extrapolated to 350 minutes): 54 FGA, 49 asts, 40 rebounds, 18 TOs, 9 steals
Another case of a useless stat.
Derrick has played a lot of minutes against some good teams. Most of Dawson's minutes were against cupcakes. The stat insinuates that if Dawson plays well against Grambling and Derrick plays poorly against Ohio State that Dawson is better.
Quote from: brandx on December 24, 2013, 12:47:48 PM
Not going to argue with that. I had said that it wasn't apples to apples and that I wasn't trying to prove anything, one way or the other with the extrapolations. I just found it interesting. Maybe you don't. That's fine.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 24, 2013, 01:19:05 PM
Not going to argue with that. I had said that it wasn't apples to apples and that I wasn't trying to prove anything, one way or the other with the extrapolations. I just found it interesting. Maybe you don't. That's fine.
I think Dawson is a typical freshman - looks lost a lot of the time, but has shown he may be a player down the road. And since Derrick is so offensively challenged, the comparison may have still looked similar even if JD had played against some of the better teams.
I'm okay with how Buzz run things. He plays the players that he thinks will help us win right now. But there is a legitimate concern that this could negatively impact future recruiting. Opposing coaches will be whispering in our targets ears, "Look, the #27 kid in the nation didn't start over former walk on." But if Buzz is the coach I think he is, I'm sure he let our recruits know his system and warn them that they probably won't start and have to earn their minutes.
It's a risk I'm willing to live with
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 24, 2013, 03:17:04 PM
I'm okay with how Buzz run things. He plays the players that he thinks will help us win right now. But there is a legitimate concern that this could negatively impact future recruiting. Opposing coaches will be whispering in our targets ears, "Look, the #27 kid in the nation didn't start over former walk on." But if Buzz is the coach I think he is, I'm sure he let our recruits know his system and warn them that they probably won't start and have to earn their minutes.
It's a risk I'm willing to live with
I think pretty much every coach plays to win now. TC didn't play the amigos because he wanted to develop them. He played them because they were the best he had.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 24, 2013, 11:21:51 AM
Before you make that jump, I did leave out points and FG% where, believe it or not, Derrick has a significant advantage.
Derrick: 63 points, 39.3% shooting
Dawson (extrapolated): 27 points, 16.7% shooting
Obviously shooting % doesn't change when extrapolating and Dawson would presumably get better looks playing extended minutes (i.e. higher FG%), but he has yet to prove that he can score (6 points in 78 minutes and 8 of his 12 FGA are 3s). Also, worth nothing that Derrick has shot nearly 45% since the OSU game (1-9 prior to that).
You'd also need to consider that Dawson doesn't really run the point when he's in the game and Derrick is a better defender. I wasn't necessarily trying to prove anything, one way or the other with the extrapolations. I just found it interesting.
Derrick's usage & offensive rating: 14%; 100 ORtg
Dawson's: 11%; 71 ORg.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 25, 2013, 06:36:41 PM
I think pretty much every coach plays to win now. TC didn't play the amigos because he wanted to develop them. He played them because they were the best he had.
This.
If Buzz thought playing all of his youngest players and benching all of his seniors/juniors would help him win, that's exactly what he'd do. People act as if Buzz had Derrick Rose at Memphis he wouldn't play him. It's funny. He even played an ineffective Vander nearly half of every game as a freshman because he thought Vander was the best option for those minutes.
Buzz himself talked openly and repeatedly about his appreciation for Derrick last year, even saying Derrick "deserved" to start over Junior. But whom did Buzz start and play the majority of the minutes? The player he thought would help Marquette win.
Coaches want to win. Period.
Quote from: MU82 on December 25, 2013, 09:00:52 PM
This.
If Buzz thought playing all of his youngest players and benching all of his seniors/juniors would help him win, that's exactly what he'd do. People act as if Buzz had Derrick Rose at Memphis he wouldn't play him. It's funny. He even played an ineffective Vander nearly half of every game as a freshman because he thought Vander was the best option for those minutes.
Buzz himself talked openly and repeatedly about his appreciation for Derrick last year, even saying Derrick "deserved" to start over Junior. But whom did Buzz start and play the majority of the minutes? The player he thought would help Marquette win.
Coaches want to win. Period.
I think Buzz, like most coaches, focus on the next game. Skip past Samford and I would think Buzz correctly sees the current lineup is the best chance to beat Creighton. However, I believe MU's best chance to make NCAA tournament is to win the conference tournament. I suppose you can say I given up on the regular season, while Buzz has not. I would think Buzz would start JJJ and Burton, if his goal changed from winning the next game to winning the conference tournament. At least that is what I would do. I would never start Dawson over Derrick.