Marquette freshmen

[NersEllenson]

The key phrase being "before they're ready."

Look, you could make a case that Dom, Rel, Wes, Key, Mac, Logterman were no more ready than JJJ, Burton, DuWilson, Dawson - JJJ, Burton, DuWilson were all rated as high as any of the above guys.

It benefitted the MU program over the next 3 years of the above named freshman, that they got a lot of game experience, and they all went on to have nice careers.  Didn't ruin their confidence a bit.  You get better by playing in games.  The "ceiling" for Derrick and Jake (to an extent) is quite low. 

[chapman]

Exactly.  And as others have pointed out, because of the type of defense that Buzz prefers, it takes awhile for this guys to pick it up.  Crean had a simpler scheme.

What happened to adapting his strategy to fit his personnel, something he's done well many times before?  This year it's his way or be lumped into the "didn't earn it" excuse, talent be damned?

[Dreadman24]

Look, you could make a case that Dom, Rel, Wes, Key, Mac, Logterman were no more ready than JJJ, Burton, DuWilson, Dawson - JJJ, Burton, DuWilson were all rated as high as any of the above guys.

It benefitted the MU program over the next 3 years of the above named freshman, that they got a lot of game experience, and they all went on to have nice careers.  Didn't ruin their confidence a bit.  You get better by playing in games.  The "ceiling" for Derrick and Jake (to an extent) is quite low. 

Preach!! +1000

[GGGG]

What happened to adapting his strategy to fit his personnel, something he's done well many times before?  This year it's his way or be lumped into the "didn't earn it" excuse, talent be damned?

That's right!!  Our highly successful coach needs to change what he does because us fans, who really don't know any better, DEMAND IT!!!

[GGGG]

Look, you could make a case that Dom, Rel, Wes, Key, Mac, Logterman were no more ready than JJJ, Burton, DuWilson, Dawson.

How do you know this?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Look, you could make a case that Dom, Rel, Wes, Key, Mac, Logterman were no more ready than JJJ, Burton, DuWilson, Dawson - JJJ, Burton, DuWilson were all rated as high as any of the above guys.

It benefitted the MU program over the next 3 years of the above named freshman, that they got a lot of game experience, and they all went on to have nice careers.  Didn't ruin their confidence a bit.  You get better by playing in games.  The "ceiling" for Derrick and Jake (to an extent) is quite low. 

Here's the problem: let's say Buzz lands another great recruiting class in 2 years.

Are we then going to be begging to see those guys because we all know what JJJ's ceiling is?

College basketball is in a constant state of change. A coach can't completely ignore the future, but for most programs, the future is uncertain enough that you need to plan for your immediate goals... not 2 years from now.

Now, if the frosh. are better than the upperclassmen, then by all means, they should play. I do find Buzz's rotations a little curious, but I figure there is a method to his madness.

[Lennys Tap]

Look, you could make a case that Dom, Rel, Wes, Key, Mac, Logterman were no more ready than JJJ, Burton, DuWilson, Dawson - JJJ, Burton, DuWilson were all rated as high as any of the above guys.

It benefitted the MU program over the next 3 years of the above named freshman, that they got a lot of game experience, and they all went on to have nice careers.  Didn't ruin their confidence a bit.  You get better by playing in games.  The "ceiling" for Derrick and Jake (to an extent) is quite low. 

Well, Dom, Rel and Wes didn't win an NCAA tourney game until their junior year and two in their entire career. Key, Mac and Logterman went 11-18 their freshman year and didn't win an NCAA game until they were seniors. Is that what we're hoping for? I know this year is off to a poor start but the current coach has nearly twice as many NCAA wins in 3 years with his own guys (7) as those guys had in 8 years (4).

[Marquette84]

I didn't misquote 84 here. And I didn't omit quotes of mine. HE was the one making up stuff (I never called Butler and Crowder talentless stiffs - HE's the guy who characterizes guys who don't make the top 500 in high school as such, not me).

Can you explain your outrage over this?

If you're willing to trash Crowder and Butler's JUCO accomplishments by referring to them as "non top 500 high school guys", why are so upset about the term "talentless hack"?    At one point you even used the word "dregs"  to describe the recruiting pool that Butler was part of.  

Its not like you're complementing them on their High School accomplishments.  You're trying to talk them down so you can pretend Buzz's coaching played a larger role than it did.

And HE's the one deciding (incorrectly) that my quotes mean more than what they say instead of exactly what they say. And you think that all the lies, misquotes and seeing things that aren't there and never were there amount to eloquence. You two really do deserve one another.

Lenny, your quote is intentionally misleading.  Your sophomoric attempt to justify it by claiming that high school kids stay that way forever fools no one. And leaving out an important fact to lead mislead is a lie of omission.  

And the sad part here is that every time you repeat that statement, you demean the accomplishments of Jimmy Butler and Jae Crowder and their coaches at their respective junior colleges.  

For some odd reason, its not enough for you to accurately say Buzz Williams coached two JUCO AAs to the NBA.

For years, you have been demeaning the accomplishments of Jimmy and Jae and their JUCO coaches in order to artificially inflate Buzz's role in their development.

But you know what?   I don't think Buzz himself would buy your statement.  

I think he'd be the first one to point out Jae and Jimmy showed tremendous development between High School and Marquette, and that he doesn't deserve any of the credit for that.  And I think he'd call you out on leaving that part out of your quote.

[NersEllenson]

Here's the problem: let's say Buzz lands another great recruiting class in 2 years.

Are we then going to be begging to see those guys because we all know what JJJ's ceiling is?

College basketball is in a constant state of change. A coach can't completely ignore the future, but for most programs, the future is uncertain enough that you need to plan for your immediate goals... not 2 years from now.

Now, if the frosh. are better than the upperclassmen, then by all means, they should play. I do find Buzz's rotations a little curious, but I figure there is a method to his madness.

Well if JJJ as a junior or senior is averaging 5 points a game on 35% shooting, and has made 1 3pt bucket through 11 games, or has made 19 3 pointers, and just 1 2 point FG - yes, I'd want to see the highly touted freshman more.  If after almost 3 years in the program, all you can achieve is the above?  Yea, sign me up for seeing what the great recruiting class can do.

[GGGG]

Well if JJJ as a junior or senior is averaging 5 points a game on 35% shooting, and has made 1 3pt bucket through 11 games, or has made 19 3 pointers, and just 1 2 point FG - yes, I'd want to see the highly touted freshman more.  If after almost 3 years in the program, all you can achieve is the above?  Yea, sign me up for seeing what the great recruiting class can do.

Of course you fail to mention that JJJ plays a completely different position than the guy you mention... 

[NersEllenson]

Of course you fail to mention that JJJ plays a completely different position than the guy you mention... 

Do you just like to argue to argue - or is it simply that you don't have a good point to make with any logical basis, so you resort to the above?

FYI - JJJ is considered a 2 guard - kinda like the guy who has made 1, 2pt field goal all year and 19 3's - that I mentioned in my post.  Of course you fail to read and comprehend that point as you do many here.

[GGGG]

Do you just like to argue to argue - or is it simply that you don't have a good point to make with any logical basis, so you resort to the above?

You bring up a player that you continuously harp on....one that plays a completely different position and you ask if *I* like to argue?

Make a relevant argument dude.  Don't just ride the same one-trick pony you always do.

[NersEllenson]

You bring up a player that you continuously harp on....one that plays a completely different position and you ask if *I* like to argue?

Make a relevant argument dude.  Don't just ride the same one-trick pony you always do.

Ahh what part of the below comparison to our current 2 guard (JJJ's position) do you not grasp??  I usually find you at least somewhat intelligent at minimum, but in this case, you are even making me doubt that.

Well if JJJ as a junior or senior is averaging 5 points a game on 35% shooting, and has made 1 3pt bucket through 11 games, or has made 19 3 pointers, and just 1 2 point FG - yes, I'd want to see the highly touted freshman more.  If after almost 3 years in the program, all you can achieve is the above?  Yea, sign me up for seeing what the great recruiting class can do.

[GGGG]

Nm

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Well if JJJ as a junior or senior is averaging 5 points a game on 35% shooting, and has made 1 3pt bucket through 11 games, or has made 19 3 pointers, and just 1 2 point FG - yes, I'd want to see the highly touted freshman more.  If after almost 3 years in the program, all you can achieve is the above?  Yea, sign me up for seeing what the great recruiting class can do.

The best guys should play. I've got no problem with that.

However, is there a magic age on when we know a player's ceiling? Jae Crowder was a far better player as a senior than he was as a junior. Is it conceivable that Derrick Wilson could continue to improve this year and next? What about Todd? Do we know his ceiling? He'll be 23 by the end of the season.

[Wojo'sMojo]

The best guys should play. I've got no problem with that.

However, is there a magic age on when we know a player's ceiling? Jae Crowder was a far better player as a senior than he was as a junior. Is it conceivable that Derrick Wilson could continue to improve this year and next? What about Todd? Do we know his ceiling? He'll be 23 by the end of the season.

I think every player improves on a case by case basis. Crowder flashed potential and had a skill set that could be developed. Derrick not so much... A 6 ft pg with no shot or ability to create for others will never improve enough to not be an offensive liability. I hope I'm dead wrong, I believe 100% that I am right though.

[NersEllenson]

The best guys should play. I've got no problem with that.

However, is there a magic age on when we know a player's ceiling? Jae Crowder was a far better player as a senior than he was as a junior. Is it conceivable that Derrick Wilson could continue to improve this year and next? What about Todd? Do we know his ceiling? He'll be 23 by the end of the season.

The deal is this - With Mayo, for example, he showed us flashes of great potential is freshman year - you saw real potential - sophomore year was a total throwaway/dog house year....and I still don't think we've seen the best of Todd - he needs to be out there a consistent 30 minutes a game to see full potential, and he would likely contend for top scoring honors on the team.

I just honestly can't say I've seen any flashes of potential in Derrick as a freshman/sophomore beyond solid defense - that make me think he's a starting caliber high major point guard - think he's a good back up.  Dawson, on the other hand, has shown me flashes of potential and a great feel for the game - he very well may not be any better shooter than Derrick at this time - but he definitely sees the floor better and is more creative/aggressive with the ball....which is why I keep saying his ceiling is higher..

[Lennys Tap]

But you know what?   I don't think Buzz himself would buy your statement.  

I think he'd be the first one to point out Jae and Jimmy showed tremendous development between High School and Marquette, and that he doesn't deserve any of the credit for that.  And I think he'd call you out on leaving that part out of your quote.

Really? I've heard Buzz say on more than one occasion that Jimmy Butler wasn't even rated in the top 100 high school seniors in TEXAS, let alone the top 500 in the USA. Be sure to drop him a line and tell him he should feel demeaned. He 'll get a good laugh. Look, it's just a fact, part of his history. Same with Jae. They're justifiably proud that they came so far, not demeaned. They would, though, surely be insulted by you calling them talentless hacks.

I don't know how much credit Jimmy and Jae's juco coaches should get for turning them into NBA first round picks. You want to give them the lion's share, fine. I give the players themselves most of the credit. Then Buzz. The JC guys are a very distant third IMO.

Merry Christmas.

[MerrittsMustache]

The deal is this - With Mayo, for example, he showed us flashes of great potential is freshman year - you saw real potential - sophomore year was a total throwaway/dog house year....and I still don't think we've seen the best of Todd - he needs to be out there a consistent 30 minutes a game to see full potential, and he would likely contend for top scoring honors on the team.

Mayo is a great example of trying to figure out a player's ceiling. Some fans recall the "flashes" that he showed his freshman year, particularly early on, and think that the best is yet to come. Others think back to Mayo as a freshman and, two years later, he doesn't look like a much different player (i.e. he's at his ceiling).

That's part of what makes coaching and recruiting such an inexact science. Coaches need to look at 15-17yo kids and try to project how much they'll improve by age 20. Some HS All-Americans have peaked by the time they get to college while others go from lightly-regarded recruits to lottery picks.

I really feel like the major issue facing this year's Marquette team is that the upperclassmen have all hit their ceilings. Jamil, Gardner, Otule, Mayo, Juan, Jake, Derrick - all of them are what they are. None of them have made that big Lazar/Butler/DJO/Crowder/Blue-type jump that we've come to expect from MU players. I don't say that as a knock on these young men. They're incredibly talented players, but they've maxed out.

[MerrittsMustache]

I just honestly can't say I've seen any flashes of potential in Derrick as a freshman/sophomore beyond solid defense - that make me think he's a starting caliber high major point guard - think he's a good back up.  Dawson, on the other hand, has shown me flashes of potential and a great feel for the game - he very well may not be any better shooter than Derrick at this time - but he definitely sees the floor better and is more creative/aggressive with the ball....which is why I keep saying his ceiling is higher..

What's amazing about Dawson and Derrick is that, if you extrapolate Dawson's stats to match Derrick's minutes (admittedly, not exactly apples to apples), they're virtually identical in several areas.

Derrick (in 350 minutes): 56 FGA, 49 asts, 49 rebounds, 18 TOs, 9 steals

Dawson (extrapolated to 350 minutes): 54 FGA, 49 asts, 40 rebounds, 18 TOs, 9 steals

[NersEllenson]

What's amazing about Dawson and Derrick is that, if you extrapolate Dawson's stats to match Derrick's minutes (admittedly, not exactly apples to apples), they're virtually identical in several areas.

Derrick (in 350 minutes): 56 FGA, 49 asts, 49 rebounds, 18 TOs, 9 steals

Dawson (extrapolated to 350 minutes): 54 FGA, 49 asts, 40 rebounds, 18 TOs, 9 steals

Wow - pretty crazy!  The issue to me though, is that Derrick has been in the program for almost 3 years now, and this is his production.  Just don't feel there would be much drop off, if any, if Dawson took over the reins, and there might potentially be improvement.  I just think the game has been a lot harder this year for Devante and Jamil, largely due to the backcourt issues we have - which can also explain them not taking a big step forward this year compared to last...

[Eldon]

What's amazing about Dawson and Derrick is that, if you extrapolate Dawson's stats to match Derrick's minutes (admittedly, not exactly apples to apples), they're virtually identical in several areas.

Derrick (in 350 minutes): 56 FGA, 49 asts, 49 rebounds, 18 TOs, 9 steals

Dawson (extrapolated to 350 minutes): 54 FGA, 49 asts, 40 rebounds, 18 TOs, 9 steals

Try the extrapolation the other way--what did Derrick's first X minutes look like (X is the total number of minutes played by Dawson).  Obviously, not even close to a perfect comparison, as there are many things to control for.  But it at least gives some preliminary finding.

[MerrittsMustache]

Wow - pretty crazy!  The issue to me though, is that Derrick has been in the program for almost 3 years now, and this is his production.  Just don't feel there would be much drop off, if any, if Dawson took over the reins, and there might potentially be improvement.  I just think the game has been a lot harder this year for Devante and Jamil, largely due to the backcourt issues we have - which can also explain them not taking a big step forward this year compared to last...

Before you make that jump, I did leave out points and FG% where, believe it or not, Derrick has a significant advantage.

Derrick: 63 points, 39.3% shooting

Dawson (extrapolated): 27 points, 16.7% shooting

Obviously shooting % doesn't change when extrapolating and Dawson would presumably get better looks playing extended minutes (i.e. higher FG%), but he has yet to prove that he can score (6 points in 78 minutes and 8 of his 12 FGA are 3s). Also, worth nothing that Derrick has shot nearly 45% since the OSU game (1-9 prior to that).

You'd also need to consider that Dawson doesn't really run the point when he's in the game and Derrick is a better defender. I wasn't necessarily trying to prove anything, one way or the other with the extrapolations. I just found it interesting.

[NersEllenson]

Before you make that jump, I did leave out points and FG% where, believe it or not, Derrick has a significant advantage.

Derrick: 63 points, 39.3% shooting

Dawson (extrapolated): 27 points, 16.7% shooting

Obviously shooting % doesn't change when extrapolating and Dawson would presumably get better looks playing extended minutes (i.e. higher FG%), but he has yet to prove that he can score (6 points in 78 minutes and 8 of his 12 FGA are 3s). Also, worth nothing that Derrick has shot nearly 45% since the OSU game (1-9 prior to that).

You'd also need to consider that Dawson doesn't really run the point when he's in the game and Derrick is a better defender. I wasn't necessarily trying to prove anything, one way or the other with the extrapolations. I just found it interesting.

Good stuff....and I wouldn't have thought Derrick has shot 45% since OSU - it is telling, however, as to what he's shot against the 4 best teams we've played...

For whatever reason, Buzz just must not have confidence in Dawson running the point - as he has been playing more off the ball in his minutes he's gotten.  Puzzling to me when we see him and Jamil in game and Jamil running the point...

[ChicosBailBonds]

In Example #1 Pakuni quoted me as saying someone should be fired when my direct quote was "fired or suspended". So, a misquote that changes the meaning.

In example #2 84/Equalizer omits part of his own quote to alter its meaning.

I don't get any point on example #3.

I didn't misquote 84 here. And I didn't omit quotes of mine. HE was the one making up stuff (I never called Butler and Crowder talentless stiffs - HE's the guy who characterizes guys who don't make the top 500 in high school as such, not me). And HE's the one deciding (incorrectly) that my quotes mean more than what they say instead of exactly what they say. And you think that all the lies, misquotes and seeing things that aren't there and never were there amount to eloquence. You two really do deserve one another.

We'll agree to disagree...seems to me that you were hanging on to non top 500 HS player as the only descriptor of those players.  He was pointing out that those players were very good and the descriptor that they were not top 500 HS players was not accurate WHEN you factor in that they played at a very high level at the JUCO ranks.

It would sort of be like saying Michael Jordan didn't make his high school Varsity team as a sophomore (he was on JV) and then saying Dean Smith made him into the player he became....it skips that part about Michael Jordan making his high school team the rest of his years and playing at an incredible level which made him one of the most sought after high school seniors in the country.

IMO, that is the disconnect on this.