MUScoop

So says Jeff Goodman - http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/218219481.html (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/218219481.html)

I foresee this thread going well....

Sour grapes

Scott Drew is way underranked.  I put him at number one.  He took a program that was nowhere to one that can compete with the big boys.  I can't feel good about MU's chances with anyone that has an offer from Baylor.

John Calipari number one?  Talk about giving the easy answer without thinking.  So, a guy goes from a school where he is recruiting a the highest level to the school it is easiest to recruit to, and has success.  Whad ya think was gonna happen Jeff Goodman?

No doy.

Quote from: LittleMurs on August 04, 2013, 12:18:52 AM
Scott Drew is way underranked.  I put him at number one.  He took a program that was nowhere to one that can compete with the big boys.  I can't feel good about MU's chances with anyone that has an offer from Baylor.

John Calipari number one?  Talk about giving the easy answer without thinking.  So, a guy goes from a school where he is recruiting a the highest level to the school it is easiest to recruit to, and has success.  Whad ya think was gonna happen Jeff Goodman?

Scott Drew is Calipari Jr. A whole mess of recruiting violations are going to fall on his head eventually.

Quote from: LittleMurs on August 04, 2013, 12:18:52 AM
Scott Drew is way underranked.  I put him at number one.  He took a program that was nowhere to one that can compete with the big boys.  I can't feel good about MU's chances with anyone that has an offer from Baylor.

John Calipari number one?  Talk about giving the easy answer without thinking.  So, a guy goes from a school where he is recruiting a the highest level to the school it is easiest to recruit to, and has success.  Whad ya think was gonna happen Jeff Goodman?

The headline on ESPN.com: Toughest coaches to recruit against. The name on the front of the jersey is part of what makes a coach tough to recruit against.

who has calipari ever landed that was a top recruit?!!!!

Coach Clover heads up the list of used car salesmen.

Funny, TSmith.

What big recruits has Shaka landed to get that high?

Lavin, Buzz, Wright, but no GTIII?

Interesting the Coach K and Boeheim are on the list. Both of them miss the peak recruiting sessions in the summer due to the Olympics every four years, the World Games in between and the qualifiers for both. Neither of those coaches spend a lot of time on the road. Their assistants should be on the list tho...

Quote from: Atticus on August 04, 2013, 12:48:35 PM
Interesting the Coach K and Boeheim are on the list. Both of them miss the peak recruiting sessions in the summer due to the Olympics every four years, the World Games in between and the qualifiers for both. Neither of those coaches spend a lot of time on the road. Their assistants should be on the list tho...

I know it's just one service, but I went back and checked ESPN's class rankings over the past 7 seasons. Between Duke and Syracuse, they have 13 appearances in the top-25 of recruiting rankings, with Syracuse the only one to miss the rankings (once in 2009). At the end of the day, the coach will get the lion's share of the credit. In addition, I get the sense that when Coach K and Boeheim do take the time to visit gyms, they are able to seal the deal fairly efficiently. Ever since K walked into a gym to watch Kevon Looney, it's felt like Duke was the school to beat. Their age and other commitments may not allow them as much road time as they once put in, but when they do, they both still seem to be killer recruiters.

There's no way that Mark Gottfried could have sniffed this list while he was at Alabama, although he had the occasional high recruit like Hendrix for the tide.

Doesn't Gottfried have a Crean connection?

Nice to see Buzz getting this kind of credit - and he IS doing well at recruiting.  What's much more refreshing to see is how much better of a game coach he is than Crean.  Sure, he's nowhere near Boeheim or Izzo for in-game coaching and strategy adjustments but having watched Crean lose MU 2-3 games per season because he apparently wasn't watching (and he's cost Indiana games as well) it's nice to see in-game adjustments.

Thank goodness Chicos is out of communication range or he would be in full Crean defense mode.

Buzz does everything better than Coach Clover.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 04, 2013, 07:51:01 PM
Buzz does everything better than Coach Clover.

Better coach, better recruiter, better man.

Truer words were never spoken.

The title of this thread sounds like a 14 year old girl telling her friend "I didn't want him to call anyway."

Crean left. We can move on now

Quote from: PBRme on August 04, 2013, 07:49:39 PM
Thank goodness Chicos is out of communication range or he would be in full Crean defense mode.

I'm right here.  Vacation doesn't start for a few more days.

1,951 days ago he left, 2,809,440 minutes ago.    Pretty amazing the constant need to keep comparing against him.  I guess he made an impact as I don't see anyone comparing him to Majerus, or O'Neill, or Deane, etc.  

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 04, 2013, 09:13:18 PM
I'm right here.  1,951 days ago he left, 2,809,440 minutes ago.    Pretty amazing the constant need to keep comparing against him.  I guess he made an impact as I don't see anyone comparing him to Majerus, or O'Neill, or Deane, etc. 

3....2....1...

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 04, 2013, 09:13:18 PM
I'm right here.  1,951 days ago he left, 2,809,440 minutes ago.    Pretty amazing the constant need to keep comparing against him.  I guess he made an impact as I don't see anyone comparing him to Majerus, or O'Neill, or Deane, etc. 

Yeah let's compare him to majerus who never got us to the tournament or O'Neill and Deane who both only had two ncaa appearances in their tenure here.  There's only three coaches worth comparing based on success and thats Al Crean and Buzz.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 04, 2013, 09:13:18 PM
I'm right here.  1,951 days ago he left, 2,809,440 minutes ago.    Pretty amazing the constant need to keep comparing against him.  I guess he made an impact as I don't see anyone comparing him to Majerus, or O'Neill, or Deane, etc. 

But you never bring Crean up  ?-(

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on August 04, 2013, 09:26:31 PM
Yeah let's compare him to majerus who never got us to the tournament or O'Neill and Deane who both only had two ncaa appearances in their tenure here.  There's only three coaches worth comparing based on success and thats Al Crean and Buzz.

O'Neill's tenure was short.  His impact was not.  Except for Tony Smith the cupboard was bare.  His first year recruiting he made MU relevant again by recruiting two top 75 big men - yes, I said big men - and two other top 125 players.  He also got two coveted transfers from Arizona and Purdue.  In his last year MU got to (I think) the sweet sixteen which had not been done IIRC since Al.  Don't sell the profane one who cheated on his wife short as a resurrector of MU's badly faded basketball fortunes.

Quote from: wadesworld on August 04, 2013, 09:31:12 PM
But you never bring Crean up  ?-(

Not to start a thread anymore and almost never in a thread unless responding to something, but I'm sure there are a few exceptions out there.

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on August 04, 2013, 09:26:31 PM
Yeah let's compare him to majerus who never got us to the tournament or O'Neill and Deane who both only had two ncaa appearances in their tenure here.  There's only three coaches worth comparing based on success and thats Al Crean and Buzz.

I think if you have been around this board long enough you would know why I said that.

As for Mike, he started out pretty well at MU.  NIT Final, two NCAA tournaments and a CUSA tournament championship.  By year 5, fired.  That's why I like to wait 5 years before fully getting on board.   ;)

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 04, 2013, 11:12:30 PM
Not to start a thread anymore and almost never in a thread unless responding to something, but I'm sure there are a few exceptions out there.

Fair enough.  Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly in thinking that you bring him up without any sign of Crean previously in the thread your fair amount.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 05, 2013, 01:27:44 AM


As for Mike, he started out pretty well at MU.  NIT Final, two NCAA tournaments and a CUSA tournament championship.  By year 5, fired.  That's why I like to wait 5 years before fully getting on board.   ;)

O'Neill left a lot in the pipeline for Mike and Deane pretty much lived off it. In year one, TC's players looked better coached under Buzz than they ever had under Crean. The cupboard was nearly bare for Buzz in year 2 and completely bare in year 3. So, much different than Deane for anyone who was paying attention.pretty obvious from the jump. By the end of January 09 I was sold.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 05, 2013, 07:25:08 AM
O'Neill left a lot in the pipeline for Mike and Deane pretty much lived off it. In year one, TC's players looked better coached under Buzz than they ever had under Crean. The cupboard was nearly bare for Buzz in year 2 and completely bare in year 3. So, much different than Deane for anyone who was paying attention.pretty obvious from the jump. By the end of January 09 I was sold.

Every coach taking a new job should consider himself extremely lucky to inherit a cupboard this "bare":

Srs:
1. Burke
2. Matthews
3. McNeal
4. James

Jrs.
5. Cubillan
6. Acker
7. Hayward

Sophs.
8 Christopherson
9. Mbakwe
10. Hazel
11. Fulce

Fr.
12. Otule
 
The notion of the "bare cupboard" is one of the enduring myths of Buzz's tenure. 

The fact of the matter is that the two players that left (Nick Wlliams and Tyshawn Taylor), but it left only one scholarship to fill because we were oversigned.  Buzz quickly signed Butler to fill that one scholarship.

After he was hired, he chose to cut Christopherson loose and filled that scholarship with McMorrow.

By July 1, 2008 Buzz had a completely filled roster of 13 players under scholarship.

The notion that it was bare was based on what was left after the amigos graduated.

And we must give Mike Deane credit for playing piano better than any of them.

Dukiet was better

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 04, 2013, 09:13:18 PM
I'm right here.  Vacation doesn't start for a few more days.

1,951 days ago he left, 2,809,440 minutes ago.    Pretty amazing the constant need to keep comparing against him.  I guess he made an impact as I don't see anyone comparing him to Majerus, or O'Neill, or Deane, etc.  

I didn't notice that Majerus, O'Neill or Deane were on Goodman's list.  Perhaps that's why the comparison was between Buzz and Crean who were back-to-back on this particular list?

I think both Buzz and Tom are doing quite well recruiting though I do think Buzz's efforts at MU are better than Tom's while he was at MU.

Quote from: The Equalizer on August 05, 2013, 09:05:54 AM
Every coach taking a new job should consider himself extremely lucky to inherit a cupboard this "bare":

Srs:
1. Burke
2. Matthews
3. McNeal
4. James

Jrs.
5. Cubillan
6. Acker
7. Hayward

Sophs.
8 Christopherson
9. Mbakwe
10. Hazel
11. Fulce

Fr.
12. Otule
 
The notion of the "bare cupboard" is one of the enduring myths of Buzz's tenure. 

The fact of the matter is that the two players that left (Nick Wlliams and Tyshawn Taylor), but it left only one scholarship to fill because we were oversigned.  Buzz quickly signed Butler to fill that one scholarship.

After he was hired, he chose to cut Christopherson loose and filled that scholarship with McMorrow.

By July 1, 2008 Buzz had a completely filled roster of 13 players under scholarship.

First, you've got some facts wrong. Second, in the post you're replying to the guy was talking about year 2 and 3, not year 1.

Quote from: Jay Bee on August 05, 2013, 12:34:58 PM
First, you've got some facts wrong.

You're right.  I forgot to include the verbal from Erik Williams who he also inherited.

Quote from: Jay Bee on August 05, 2013, 12:34:58 PM
Second, in the post you're replying to the guy was talking about year 2 and 3, not year 1.

Well his point seems to be that Buzz inherited a team without any frosh sophs or juniors and that he had to recruit nearly all 13 players just to field a team in his 2nd year.  That simply wasn't the case.

Quote from: The Equalizer on August 05, 2013, 03:33:01 PM
You're right.  I forgot to include the verbal from Erik Williams who he also inherited.

Well his point seems to be that Buzz inherited a team without any frosh sophs or juniors and that he had to recruit nearly all 13 players just to field a team in his 2nd year.  That simply wasn't the case.

You are a very literal fellow. 

What matters more than anything is NCAA tournament wins.  I believe Buzz has 8 in 5 years, which I think* exceeds Tom Crean's combined total in 13 years as a head coach - not to mention Crean upgraded his job and recruiting situation to a blue blood elite school in Indiana.

Last thought, MU NEVER had teams as deep under Crean as Buzz has assembled - speaks to recruiting prowess.  Crean couldn't sell Top 100 kids to come to MU when there wasn't a clear path to immediate playing time available.  A lot harder to sell a kid to come to a school in this day and age of immediate gratification when there isn't a clear cut path to immediate PT.

This isn't a diss on Crean, simply a factual comparison between the two and their performance as MU head coaches/Head Coaches overall.

Quote from: Ners on August 05, 2013, 10:15:52 PM
What matters more than anything is NCAA tournament wins.  I believe Buzz has 8 in 5 years, which I think* exceeds Tom Crean's combined total in 13 years as a head coach - not to mention Crean upgraded his job and recruiting situation to a blue blood elite school in Indiana.

Last thought, MU NEVER had teams as deep under Crean as Buzz has assembled - speaks to recruiting prowess.  Crean couldn't sell Top 100 kids to come to MU when there wasn't a clear path to immediate playing time available.  A lot harder to sell a kid to come to a school in this day and age of immediate gratification when there isn't a clear cut path to immediate PT.

This isn't a diss on Crean, simply a factual comparison between the two and their performance as MU head coaches/Head Coaches overall.

I don't disagree with you at all, but there is very little factual about this.  The NCAA Tournament wins may be factual (if they are the correct number of wins), but that doesn't necessarily means one is better than the other at recruiting (could mean they coach their team up, could mean they had better draws, etc.).

Indiana may historically be a better program and easier to recruit at, but when is the last time Indiana has been better than Marquette?  About 10 years ago?  Marquette has the most recent Final Four team, and they also have maybe the most marketable NBA superstar of any college right now (Melo had more success at Syracuse, but Melo is not on prime time television as much as Wade is, and you rarely hear Melo being mentioned with Syracuse, whereas Wade is constantly being mentioned with Marquette).  Indiana?  They have no marketable superstars.

And there could be a whole bunch of reasons why Crean couldn't recruit top 100 kids when no playing time was available.  Maybe Crean went after players who fit his system while Buzz goes after best available player?  Maybe Crean's team were deeper at certain positions, while Buzz's are deeper at others?  Etc. etc.

I'm just playing devil's advocate and pointing out that in reality you didn't bring very many relevant facts, if any, into the equation.  Most are (correct) opinions.

Quote from: wadesworld on August 05, 2013, 10:42:55 PM
I don't disagree with you at all, but there is very little factual about this.  The NCAA Tournament wins may be factual (if they are the correct number of wins), but that doesn't necessarily means one is better than the other at recruiting (could mean they coach their team up, could mean they had better draws, etc.).

Indiana may historically be a better program and easier to recruit at, but when is the last time Indiana has been better than Marquette?  About 10 years ago?  Marquette has the most recent Final Four team, and they also have maybe the most marketable NBA superstar of any college right now (Melo had more success at Syracuse, but Melo is not on prime time television as much as Wade is, and you rarely hear Melo being mentioned with Syracuse, whereas Wade is constantly being mentioned with Marquette).  Indiana?  They have no marketable superstars.

And there could be a whole bunch of reasons why Crean couldn't recruit top 100 kids when no playing time was available.  Maybe Crean went after players who fit his system while Buzz goes after best available player?  Maybe Crean's team were deeper at certain positions, while Buzz's are deeper at others?  Etc. etc.

I'm just playing devil's advocate and pointing out that in reality you didn't bring very many relevant facts, if any, into the equation.  Most are (correct) opinions.

Crean is 9-7
Buzz is 8-5

Quote from: Aughnanure on August 06, 2013, 10:45:53 AM
Crean is 9-7
Buzz is 8-5

Apples to apples, TC was 5-5 in 9 years at Marquette. Buzz is 8-5 in 5 years.

Quote from: wadesworld on August 05, 2013, 10:42:55 PM


Indiana may historically be a better program and easier to recruit at, but when is the last time Indiana has been better than Marquette? 

Amazing trivia fact: the guy who preceded Crean at Indiana has the highest career winning % ever at IU (.741 to Knight's .735).

Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 06, 2013, 11:31:41 AM
Apples to apples, TC was 5-5 in 9 years at Marquette. Buzz is 8-5 in 5 years.

Let's agree that TC was 5-5 in 7 years.  I won't hold 2000 & 2001 against him, he was asked to ramp up to become a NCAA team...which he did. 

Quote from: The Lens on August 06, 2013, 11:43:12 AM
Let's agree that TC was 5-5 in 7 years.  I won't hold 2000 & 2001 against him, he was asked to ramp up to become a NCAA team...which he did. 

Agreed, and Buzz is really 7-4 in 3 years with his own players.

Quote from: wadesworld on August 05, 2013, 10:42:55 PM

Indiana may historically be a better program and easier to recruit at, but when is the last time Indiana has been better than Marquette?  About 10 years ago?  Marquette has the most recent Final Four team, and they also have maybe the most marketable NBA superstar of any college right now (Melo had more success at Syracuse, but Melo is not on prime time television as much as Wade is, and you rarely hear Melo being mentioned with Syracuse, whereas Wade is constantly being mentioned with Marquette).  Indiana?  They have no marketable superstars.

In terms of jersey sales (marketability), Wade is behind Durant, Melo, Rose, and Deron Williams (excluding players that did not attend college).

Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 06, 2013, 11:31:41 AM
Apples to apples, TC was 5-5 in 9 years at Marquette. Buzz is 8-5 in 5 years.

Not exactly apples to apples, in fact not close.  Were the opponents the same, the venues the same, injuries (McNeal out, James out with Buzz), etc.  It's never the same, the squads are never the same.  For example, TC's first NCAA appearance was with a team that had never been to the NCAAs.  Buzz's first NCAA appearance, all of the core guys had been their 3 times. 

For that matter, TC has a Final Four, Buzz doesn't.  Buzz has three appearances with at least a Sweet 16, TC only one.  Many ways to look at it.

I know folks like to make comparisons as if they are that black and white, but they aren't. Every scenario different, it's a crapshoot.

I'm just glad MU has been blessed to have the coaching talent we have over the years.

Quote from: Ners on August 05, 2013, 10:15:52 PM
What matters more than anything is NCAA tournament wins.  I believe Buzz has 8 in 5 years, which I think* exceeds Tom Crean's combined total in 13 years as a head coach - not to mention Crean upgraded his job and recruiting situation to a blue blood elite school in Indiana.

Last thought, MU NEVER had teams as deep under Crean as Buzz has assembled - speaks to recruiting prowess.  Crean couldn't sell Top 100 kids to come to MU when there wasn't a clear path to immediate playing time available.  A lot harder to sell a kid to come to a school in this day and age of immediate gratification when there isn't a clear cut path to immediate PT.

This isn't a diss on Crean, simply a factual comparison between the two and their performance as MU head coaches/Head Coaches overall.

One thing that you are forgetting is the level of program Marquette was when each coach started. Crean inherited a program that was coming off a losing season. Not just a bad season, but a season where we actually had more losses than victories. It was also a team that had made it past the first weekend of the tournament ONCE in the past 22 years. We were also in a mediocre conference at best. Buzz inherited a program built by Crean. It was a contender, in a great conference, and had a recent Final Four and Dwayne Wade to bank on.

I would say it is clear that Buzz is a better coach than Crean. He has done more with less. But recruiter? I don't know about that. Crean's classes have all been ranked higher and he did it at a program that had been destroyed by NCAA violations. Buzz is getting to his level, but I don't think he's there yet.

Once again, I feel the need to reiterate, Buzz is the better coach, I just don't know if he's the better recruiter. (I feel the need to repeat myself because it seems like any sort of Crean support is met with fiery vengeance on this board)

Analytical Eagle you do realize that an outside source (Jeff Goodman) who actually knows what he is talking about came up with these rankings right? I think it's pretty clear that Buzz is better

Quote from: cbowe3 on August 06, 2013, 01:37:30 PM
Analytical Eagle you do realize that an outside source (Jeff Goodman) who actually knows what he is talking about came up with these rankings right? I think it's pretty clear that Buzz is better

I wasn't aware that Jeff Goodman was the god of all that is college basketball and that his opinion is law. Yes he knows way more than I do. But there are many others who know just as much as him who would disagree with him.

Quote from: cbowe3 on August 06, 2013, 01:37:30 PM
Analytical Eagle you do realize that an outside source (Jeff Goodman) who actually knows what he is talking about came up with these rankings right? I think it's pretty clear that Buzz is better

How can anything be "pretty clear" based off of one man's opinion?

Well I think that the success we've had since all of Crean's players have left our roster speaks for itself.

With Crean players we made it as far as the second round, without we are 3 outta 3 for sweet sixteens and obviously the elite 8. This too is a testimate to Buzz's coaching, which I also believe is superior to Crean, but this is just one man's opinion.

Quote from: cbowe3 on August 06, 2013, 01:37:30 PM
Analytical Eagle you do realize that an outside source (Jeff Goodman) who actually knows what he is talking about came up with these rankings right? I think it's pretty clear that Buzz is better

Jeff and Buzz are tight as well.  DeCourcy and Crean tight, slightly different opinions.  Brodess, USBWA (US Basketball Writers Association and Naismith voter) has TC in the top 6, Buzz not in top 10.  Gleeson of USA Today has TC in top 10, no Buzz.  Others have Buzz and no TC.   Everyone will have an opinion.  We've been blessed to have some very good coaches. 

Maybe we should start a thread with each of these guys opinions?   ;)

Quote from: Atticus on August 06, 2013, 12:10:03 PM
In terms of jersey sales (marketability), Wade is behind Durant, Melo, Rose, and Deron Williams (excluding players that did not attend college).

Good point.  I guess I was just going based off of what I perceive to be the amount of times the media mentions a player with their college.  Wade seems to always be mentioned with Marquette during games and analysis, whereas the other guys I never really notice that for.  And Wade seems to (at times) go out of his way to get Marquette some limelight.  How often do you see highlights of a UofI game where Deron and his pro teammates are sitting courtside or Durant bringing Westbrook to UT games on ESPN, etc.?  I've never seen it.  I did see highlights of the 10 year celebration for Syracuse's National Championship with Melo, but that was a 1 time thing.

But then again I am always looking for Marquette mentions, so maybe it's just that I'm only noticing the Marquette mentions and not the others.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 06, 2013, 03:54:51 PM
Jeff and Buzz are tight as well.  DeCourcy and Crean tight, slightly different opinions.  Brodess, USBWA (US Basketball Writers Association and Naismith voter) has TC in the top 6, Buzz not in top 10.  Gleeson of USA Today has TC in top 10, no Buzz.  Others have Buzz and no TC.   Everyone will have an opinion.  We've been blessed to have some very good coaches. 

Maybe we should start a thread with each of these guys opinions?   ;)

I'm sure that you don't need that to bust through the 15,000 post barrier.

Quote from: LittleMurs on August 06, 2013, 07:16:15 PM
I'm sure that you don't need that to bust through the 15,000 post barrier.

Nope, but God forbid if someone did post those articles saying in their opinions (as basketball writers) it was the other way around.  We could have Nagasaki and Godwin's Law going strong in a new thread.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 06, 2013, 07:38:13 PM
Nope, but God forbid if someone did post those articles saying in their opinions (as basketball writers) it was the other way around.  We could have Nagasaki and Godwin's Law going strong in a new thread.

I don't know that it is inherently offensive that a coach of a major bball power is thought of as a better recruiter than Buzz.  Crean's recruited well at IU.  However, if Buzz is put ahead at times (even with ALL the advantages I hear about venerable IU) -- I would expect Marquette people to be happy and even talk about it.

You can respect former employees without liking them -- and certainly can expect people to favor the actual coach of Marquette over a former.  Last time I checked, this isn't the Tom Crean board of fair and balanced opinions....despite the best efforts of a few.

Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on August 06, 2013, 07:54:21 PM
I don't know that it is inherently offensive that a coach of a major bball power is thought of as a better recruiter than Buzz.  Crean's recruited well at IU.  However, if Buzz is put ahead at times (even with ALL the advantages I hear about venerable IU) -- I would expect Marquette people to be happy and even talk about it.

You can respect former employees without liking them -- and certainly can expect people to favor the actual coach of Marquette over a former.  Last time I checked, this isn't the Tom Crean board of fair and balanced opinions....despite the best efforts of a few.

I don't disagree with what you said, quite frankly.  But to be fair, an awful lot of people want to bring him first in an attempt to make it the Tom Crean board...like this thread for example...or every time they lose.  It's weird, when SLU lost, I didn't see posts started, even though they were coached by a former MU coach.  When KO lost, or Mike Deane lost...same.  And to think that 2 of those 3 guys left MU for greener pastures, too....the devil you say.   ;)

No former coach left Marquette for a job that was actually better.  At first I was going to say none of those coaches -- but -- its just not true.  Outside of Tex Winter (indirectly) -- no former Marquette coach left for a better coaching job. 

Crean did -- makes it different I would say....let us have some fun at the elitists expense.  It is Indiana you know -- they get an auto-bid to the sweet 16 -- they can handle it


 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds

link=topic=39393.msg508987#msg508987 date=1375839274
I don't disagree with what you said, quite frankly.  But to be fair, an awful lot of people want to bring him first in an attempt to make it the Tom Crean board...like this thread for example...or every time they lose.  It's weird, when SLU lost, I didn't see posts started, even though they were coached by a former MU coach.  When KO lost, or Mike Deane lost...same. And to think that 2 of those 3 guys left MU for greener pastures, too....the devil you say.   ;)

Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on August 06, 2013, 08:57:15 PM
No former coach left Marquette for a job that was actually better.  At first I was going to say none of those coaches -- but -- its just not true.  Outside of Tex Winter (indirectly) -- no former Marquette coach left for a better coaching job. 

Crean did -- makes it different I would say....let us have some fun at the elitists expense.  It is Indiana you know -- they get an auto-bid to the sweet 16 -- they can handle it


 

You could make a case that majerus and Raymond's did. 

It's not scientific but I don't see many perceived promotions to AD or NBA Asst.

Check out this steller Crean recruit, Devan Dumes charged with attempted murder http://www.indystar.com/article/20130130/SPORTS0601/130130034/Former-Indiana-basketball-player-Devan-Dumes-charged-attempted-murder

Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on August 06, 2013, 08:57:15 PM
No former coach left Marquette for a job that was actually better.  At first I was going to say none of those coaches -- but -- its just not true.  Outside of Tex Winter (indirectly) -- no former Marquette coach left for a better coaching job. 

Crean did -- makes it different I would say....let us have some fun at the elitists expense.  It is Indiana you know -- they get an auto-bid to the sweet 16 -- they can handle it


 

KO didn't believe that.  In fact KO couldn't leave fast enough to Tennessee and absolutely felt, at the time, it was a better job.  Majerus went to the pros. 

Quote from: cbowe3 on August 07, 2013, 08:20:07 AM
Check out this steller Crean recruit, Devan Dumes charged with attempted murder http://www.indystar.com/article/20130130/SPORTS0601/130130034/Former-Indiana-basketball-player-Devan-Dumes-charged-attempted-murder

A  JUCO transfer from Vincensse who was suspended several times....see, this is why you stay away from JUCOs.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 06, 2013, 08:34:34 PM
I don't disagree with what you said, quite frankly.  But to be fair, an awful lot of people want to bring him first in an attempt to make it the Tom Crean board...like this thread for example...or every time they lose.  It's weird, when SLU lost, I didn't see posts started, even though they were coached by a former MU coach.  When KO lost, or Mike Deane lost...same.  And to think that 2 of those 3 guys left MU for greener pastures, too....the devil you say.   ;)

Maybe that relates to the douchiness level of said coach.  
greater the douche level, the more negative posts for said ex-coach. Not weird at all.

Quote from: hairyworthen on August 07, 2013, 08:43:47 AM
Maybe that relates to the douchiness level of said coach.  
greater the douche level, the more negative posts for said ex-coach. Not weird at all.

Yes, KO was cherubic and very undouche like.  LOL

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 07, 2013, 08:47:23 AM
Yes, KO was cherubic and very undouche like.  LOL

True, but likeable in many ways as well, and definitely not as much of a self serving tool as Crean is.

Quote from: cbowe3 on August 07, 2013, 08:20:07 AM
Check out this steller Crean recruit, Devan Dumes charged with attempted murder http://www.indystar.com/article/20130130/SPORTS0601/130130034/Former-Indiana-basketball-player-Devan-Dumes-charged-attempted-murder

Mental olympics aren't your specialty.

Quote from: hairyworthen on August 07, 2013, 08:51:28 AM
True, but likeable in many ways as well, and definitely not as much of a self serving tool as Crean is.

All in the eyes of the beholder.  Diener, Wade, Novak, etc, etc all seem to think someone is likeable as well.  Can say that about anyone, quite frankly.  Thank God the era of cell phone cameras, etc, were not around back then....it would not have ended well for MU or him.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 07, 2013, 09:14:05 AM
All in the eyes of the beholder.  Diener, Wade, Novak, etc, etc all seem to think someone is likeable as well.  Can say that about anyone, quite frankly.  Thank God the era of cell phone cameras, etc, were not around back then....it would not have ended well for MU or him.

Most kids will like or at least stick up for the parents even if they are not the best people. same is true for coach/player relationships. I am sure you could find people who like and respect Hitler or Osama Bin Laden that doesn't make them the majority.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 06, 2013, 07:38:13 PM
Nope, but God forbid if someone did post those articles saying in their opinions (as basketball writers) it was the other way around.  We could have Nagasaki and Godwin's Law going strong in a new thread.

Thank you sooooo much for letting us know their opinions even without posting the full articles (God forbid!!!!)

I don't know if Buzz is a better recruiter than Crean.  Goodman thinks so, some others don't.

Some people think Crean sucks and don't particularly like THE WAY he left.  Some people, maybe even you (I can't tell for sure), feel the need to defend him at every opportunity.

Every single post that references Buzz and/or Crean doesn't necesarily have to be a multi-page point-counterpoint, except that you insist on making it that way.

GOD FORBID that you just let the anti-Crean posts run their course and fade into Scoop oblivion.  Give it a rest.

Quote from: leever on August 07, 2013, 09:22:13 AM
Thank you sooooo much for letting us know their opinions even without posting the full articles (God forbid!!!!)

I don't know if Buzz is a better recruiter than Crean.  Goodman thinks so, some others don't.

Some people think Crean sucks and don't particularly like THE WAY he left.  Some people, maybe even you (I can't tell for sure), feel the need to defend him at every opportunity.

Every single post that references Buzz and/or Crean doesn't necesarily have to be a multi-page point-counterpoint, except that you insist on making it that way.

GOD FORBID that you just let the anti-Crean posts run their course and fade into Scoop oblivion.  Give it a rest.

THANK YOU!  Not that it will change anything

Quote from: leever on August 07, 2013, 09:22:13 AM
Thank you sooooo much for letting us know their opinions even without posting the full articles (God forbid!!!!)

I don't know if Buzz is a better recruiter than Crean.  Goodman thinks so, some others don't.

Some people think Crean sucks and don't particularly like THE WAY he left.  Some people, maybe even you (I can't tell for sure), feel the need to defend him at every opportunity.

Every single post that references Buzz and/or Crean doesn't necesarily have to be a multi-page point-counterpoint, except that you insist on making it that way.

GOD FORBID that you just let the anti-Crean posts run their course and fade into Scoop oblivion.  Give it a rest.

You write that as if posts of that kind would ever fade into oblivion. How cute.

(http://www.collegehoopsnet.com/7472001_Indiana-v-MichiganState.jpg)

(http://brosher.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/18_spIUBB17.171303.jpg)

(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/heraldtimesonline.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/1/a3/1a3ac5e3-3e0d-57e4-88d8-4b1c6438a8bb/51afae459a565.preview-300.jpg)

Quote from: leever on August 07, 2013, 09:22:13 AM
Thank you sooooo much for letting us know their opinions even without posting the full articles (God forbid!!!!)

I don't know if Buzz is a better recruiter than Crean.  Goodman thinks so, some others don't.

Some people think Crean sucks and don't particularly like THE WAY he left.  Some people, maybe even you (I can't tell for sure), feel the need to defend him at every opportunity.

Every single post that references Buzz and/or Crean doesn't necesarily have to be a multi-page point-counterpoint, except that you insist on making it that way.

GOD FORBID that you just let the anti-Crean posts run their course and fade into Scoop oblivion.  Give it a rest.

Or

Some people, maybe even you (I can't tell for sure), feel the need to attack him at every opportunity.  GOD FORBID that we just stop the anti-Crean posts from even starting, it's been almost 2000 days.  Give it a rest

Afterall, KO left in not a good way. Rick left in not a good way.  Etc, etc.....hypocrisy here remains on tilt.

Quote from: swoopem on August 07, 2013, 08:20:07 AM
Check out this steller Crean recruit, Devan Dumes charged with attempted murder http://www.indystar.com/article/20130130/SPORTS0601/130130034/Former-Indiana-basketball-player-Devan-Dumes-charged-attempted-murder

Clearly, Devan was not a better person than he was a player.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 07, 2013, 11:57:57 AM
Or

Some people, maybe even you (I can't tell for sure), feel the need to attack him at every opportunity.  GOD FORBID that we just stop the anti-Crean posts from even starting, it's been almost 2000 days.  Give it a rest

Afterall, KO left in not a good way. Rick left in not a good way.  Etc, etc.....hypocrisy here remains on tilt.

Same stuff, different day.

If you know the Crean bashing will continue, why do you need to join every thread anyway?  It's not going to change anything.

Of course, neither will this post asking you to give it a rest.  Isn't it about time for some commentary on his son's birthday party?

Page 4 coming up soon.

Quote from: leever on August 07, 2013, 12:43:48 PM
Same stuff, different day.

If you know the Crean bashing will continue, why do you need to join every thread anyway?  It's not going to change anything.

Of course, neither will this post asking you to give it a rest.  Isn't it about time for some commentary on his son's birthday party?

Page 4 coming up soon.

1) A lot of fans wanted Rick gone, it just turned out they didn't want him to leave in June
2) KO never, ever, ever gave the impression he was in it for the long haul.  We knew the deal with KO
3) TC sold a lot fans on how he was Mr. Marquette, ordered a media guide in 1977 etc. and then of course he used the same plays out of the same playbook at his IU presser (gave us doubters confirmation it was just 1 big act).  This plus having had recently signed a long term deal gave a good deal of fans he was in for the long haul.

TC was different than everyone else because he worked so hard to sell himself as different.  He brought 95% of this on himself.  Everywhere he goes he tries so hard to fit in.  If IU fired TC in 3 years and hired Buzz, I suspect a lot of fans would start cheering for IU (I would).  I think it's because Buzz never tried to sell himself as something he wasn't. 

Quote from: The Lens on August 07, 2013, 12:55:05 PM
1) A lot of fans wanted Rick gone, it just turned out they didn't want him to leave in June
2) KO never, ever, ever gave the impression he was in it for the long haul.  We knew the deal with KO
3) TC sold a lot fans on how he was Mr. Marquette, ordered a media guide in 1977 etc. and then of course he used the same plays out of the same playbook at his IU presser (gave us doubters confirmation it was just 1 big act).  This plus having had recently signed a long term deal gave a good deal of fans he was in for the long haul.

TC was different than everyone else because he worked so hard to sell himself as different.  He brought 95% of this on himself.  Everywhere he goes he tries so hard to fit in.  If IU fired TC in 3 years and hired Buzz, I suspect a lot of fans would start cheering for IU  (I would).  I think it's because Buzz never tried to sell himself as something he wasn't.  

I wouldn't go that far, but you make valid points.  

Quote from: The Lens on August 07, 2013, 12:55:05 PM

3) TC sold a lot fans on how he was Mr. Marquette, ordered a media guide in 1977 etc. and then of course he used the same plays out of the same playbook at his IU presser (gave us doubters confirmation it was just 1 big act). 

Maybe you're too young to remember, but IU was right there with MU as one of the top teams of the era.  IU was Elite eight in 73 and 75, and won the championship outright in '76 (with an undefeated season). In 74 MU is in the final four, Elite Eight in 76, and won the championship in 77.

If you're a HS kid of that era and a huge basketball fan, how do you NOT follow both programs?   

Do you know kids 10, 12, 14 years old today and basketball fans who say their favorite teams include Duke, Kansas, North Carolina, Louisvlle, Kentucky, etc?  Kids like the teams that are hot at the time.  You can't blame them--they are on TV all the time--in the news all the time.  Those are the teams they follow.

So why are you so convinced that it was somehow different back then? That a kid in the 70's couldn't possibly have liked both Marquette and Indiana, and if he says he did it confirms he's a phony?

I'm a relatively new fan (pretty much since my Senior year of high school when I knew I was going to MU - 2010/2011), so much of the TC animosity doesn't mean much to me, but can't we just let this crap go?? Why is it we ALWAYS have to bring up Crean?? He's gone, being a complete douchebag in Bloomington, let it go. If he hadn't left, Buzz wouldn't be our HC, and we probably wouldn't have just come off our THIRD straight second-weekend appearance in the Dance. I see him leaving as nothing but a great thing because would anyone here honestly rather have him over Buzz? I sure as hell know I wouldn't. I hit up the Scoop daily because I love that there are fanatics out there just like me, but it gets so damn tiring having to read about Tom Crean 4 times a week.  

Quote from: The Lens on August 07, 2013, 12:55:05 PM
1) A lot of fans wanted Rick gone, it just turned out they didn't want him to leave in June
2) KO never, ever, ever gave the impression he was in it for the long haul.  We knew the deal with KO
3) TC sold a lot fans on how he was Mr. Marquette, ordered a media guide in 1977 etc. and then of course he used the same plays out of the same playbook at his IU presser (gave us doubters confirmation it was just 1 big act).  This plus having had recently signed a long term deal gave a good deal of fans he was in for the long haul.

TC was different than everyone else because he worked so hard to sell himself as different.  He brought 95% of this on himself.  Everywhere he goes he tries so hard to fit in.  If IU fired TC in 3 years and hired Buzz, I suspect a lot of fans would start cheering for IU (I would).  I think it's because Buzz never tried to sell himself as something he wasn't. 

You aren't naive enough to actually believe what you wrote, are you?

Quote from: leever on August 07, 2013, 12:43:48 PM
Same stuff, different day.

If you know the Crean bashing will continue, why do you need to join every thread anyway?  It's not going to change anything.

Of course, neither will this post asking you to give it a rest.  Isn't it about time for some commentary on his son's birthday party?

Page 4 coming up soon.

Yup, same stuff different day.....2000 days later and people still can't let go.  It's beyond weird.

I'm just thankful we've had good coaches at MU.  TC helped get us to the Final Four, into the Big East, delivered some great players and great memories.  Now we have Buzz doing much of the same. 

Makes you wonder why so many people keep bringing him up, why they keep comparing current coach to him, etc...it's like they're always trying to measure him up.  Weird....but you are right, same stuff different day.  I wonder if people can go a whole month without starting a thread about him once the season starts?

Quote from: Golden Avalanche on August 07, 2013, 04:01:16 PM
You aren't naive enough to actually believe what you wrote, are you?

It's amazing the correlation of how "genuine" and "sincere" and "honest" and "loyal" a coach is when they are at your school...until they leave or start losing.  Go on most message boards and it's the same thing....it's amazing how many genuine, sincere, honest, loyal men with whistles around their necks walk on water at the same time while they are at the school and winning.  Start losing, and suddenly out of nowhere Ben Howland becomes "prickly" even though he always was.  Start losing, and suddenly Buzz Williams country bumpkin schtick isn't quite as endearing.  Go to Final Four, TC greatest guy in the world.  Go to back to back NITs after that, not so swell anymore.  I'll give you my own personal experience with Mike Scioscia...one of the nicest, best people I have met bar none, regardless of profession.  For many Halos fans, he is now labeled as "too nice", not "firey" enough.  This wasn't the case a few years ago when they were winning division title after division title, a WS, etc.  Fans are fun.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 07, 2013, 04:27:19 PM
It's amazing the correlation of how "genuine" and "sincere" and "honest" and "loyal" a coach is when they are at your school...until they leave or start losing.  Go on most message boards and it's the same thing....it's amazing how many genuine, sincere, honest, loyal men with whistles around their necks walk on water at the same time while they are at the school and winning.  Start losing, and suddenly out of nowhere Ben Howland becomes "prickly" even though he always was.  Start losing, and suddenly Buzz Williams country bumpkin schtick isn't quite as endearing.  Go to Final Four, TC greatest guy in the world.  Go to back to back NITs after that, not so swell anymore.  I'll give you my own personal experience with Mike Scioscia...one of the nicest, best people I have met bar none, regardless of profession.  For many Halos fans, he is now labeled as "too nice", not "firey" enough.  This wasn't the case a few years ago when they were winning division title after division title, a WS, etc.  Fans are fun.

I think I am smart enough to separate my fanship with how I view human beings. I couldn't stand TC on March 29th, 2003 when I sitting in the HHH Metrodome and I can't stand him now.  And I liked Buzz Williams a ton when I was watching Jake Thomas hoist a failed 3 on the road at UWGB.

Quote from: Golden Avalanche on August 07, 2013, 04:01:16 PM
You aren't naive enough to actually believe what you wrote, are you?

I know Buzz has a schtick but that's who he is...he plays a game.  Calls himself dumb, etc...that's an act, I get it. 

TC has no schtick because he has no idea who he is, it changes nearly every day.    He can't even figure out who to pretend to be because he's so phony to begin with.  He's CMO always trying to sell you something. 

If you can't figure out that there's an appealing realness to Buzz, KO and Mike Deane, I don't know what to tell you.  You and I are just wired differently.

Crean sucks.

Quote from: The Lens on August 07, 2013, 12:55:05 PM

3) TC sold a lot fans on how he was Mr. Marquette, ordered a media guide in 1977 etc. and then of course he used the same plays out of the same playbook at his IU presser (gave us doubters confirmation it was just 1 big act).  This plus having had recently signed a long term deal gave a good deal of fans he was in for the long haul.

He actually said in the MU press conference that he watched MU as a kid win the title and that it was one of his original memories of basketball.  At the IU press conferences he mentioned IU and MU as the first two national championship games he watched..they both happened in back to back years so this is hardly surprising. Unless he was clarevoyant and knew he was getting the IU job 9 years later, why would he mention watching an IU championship game at a MU press conference?

The guy attended a Bob Knight clinic in Bloomington at age 19, he had early memories of IU as a youth as well.

Quote from: The Lens on August 07, 2013, 04:40:03 PM
I think I am smart enough to separate my fanship with how I view human beings. I couldn't stand TC on March 29th, 2003 when I sitting in the HHH Metrodome and I can't stand him now.  And I liked Buzz Williams a ton when I was watching Jake Thomas hoist a failed 3 on the road at UWGB.

I know Buzz has a schtick but that's who he is...he plays a game.  Calls himself dumb, etc...that's an act, I get it. 

TC has no schtick because he has no idea who he is, it changes nearly every day.    He can't even figure out who to pretend to be because he's so phony to begin with.  He's CMO always trying to sell you something. 

If you can't figure out that there's an appealing realness to Buzz, KO and Mike Deane, I don't know what to tell you.  You and I are just wired differently.

Lens...people have a different appeal to different folks.  KO and some of the stuff I know he did, didn't appeal to me at all because I knew what he had done.  I couldn't pretend that baggage didn't exist.  I couldn't pretend that I wasn't watching what he was doing to his kid and his wife, etc, etc.  That didn't appeal to me...if you find that appealing, we are wired differently.

Mike and I got along great, though there were certainly some behaviors there that I wasn't not thrilled with.  Buzz is very appealing, and yes he has an act...I'm glad you get it, I certainly do but many people don't....they have no idea it's an act....I guess they aren't smart enough to figure it out.  As I've said time and time again, TC is a weird dude, I think a lot of it has to do with his dad leaving his family when he was young.  I certainly don't find him "appealing", though I also find that he doesn't do things that some of the others do that I find not appealing at all (i.e. cheating on your wife constantly in public, etc, etc, etc). 

To each their own...having a cocktail with MD or KO was fun.  Having an adult admiration for their behaviors and how they represented my school...not so much.  Appeal is in the eye of the beholder.

Didn't take long to figure out Crean's act for some of us.

Quote from: The Lens on August 07, 2013, 04:40:03 PM
I think I am smart enough to separate my fanship with how I view human beings. I couldn't stand TC on March 29th, 2003 when I sitting in the HHH Metrodome and I can't stand him now.  And I liked Buzz Williams a ton when I was watching Jake Thomas hoist a failed 3 on the road at UWGB.

I know Buzz has a schtick but that's who he is...he plays a game.  Calls himself dumb, etc...that's an act, I get it. 

TC has no schtick because he has no idea who he is, it changes nearly every day.    He can't even figure out who to pretend to be because he's so phony to begin with.  He's CMO always trying to sell you something. 

If you can't figure out that there's an appealing realness to Buzz, KO and Mike Deane, I don't know what to tell you.  You and I are just wired differently.

Nailed it, Lens - a perfect analysis.

Quote from: oneposteagle on August 07, 2013, 03:43:43 PM
I'm a relatively new fan (pretty much since my Senior year of high school when I knew I was going to MU - 2010/2011), so much of the TC animosity doesn't mean much to me, but can't we just let this crap go?? Why is it we ALWAYS have to bring up Crean?? He's gone, being a complete douchebag in Bloomington, let it go. If he hadn't left, Buzz wouldn't be our HC, and we probably wouldn't have just come off our THIRD straight second-weekend appearance in the Dance. I see him leaving as nothing but a great thing because would anyone here honestly rather have him over Buzz? I sure as hell know I wouldn't. I hit up the Scoop daily because I love that there are fanatics out there just like me, but it gets so damn tiring having to read about Tom Crean 4 times a week.  

That seems to be the sentiment of everybody who attended marquette after my class.  Because in 08-09 we were hearing stories of what we could have been that year if Crean had stayed.  Now it's all Buzz through and through. 

Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 07, 2013, 08:49:33 PM
Didn't take long to figure out Crean's act for some of us.

No one is arguing that.  I just wonder one day when Diener, Wade, Novak, etc are as enlightened.   ;)

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 07, 2013, 08:08:27 PM
Lens...people have a different appeal to different folks.  KO and some of the stuff I know he did, didn't appeal to me at all because I knew what he had done.  I couldn't pretend that baggage didn't exist.  I couldn't pretend that I wasn't watching what he was doing to his kid and his wife, etc, etc.  That didn't appeal to me...if you find that appealing, we are wired differently.

My fondness of certain coaches should not be taken as a complete sign-off for all of their personal behaviors, much as I would suspect that your fondness for TC is not a sign off of all of his "idiosyncrasies". 

Quote from: The Lens on August 07, 2013, 10:18:12 PM
My fondness of certain coaches should not be taken as a complete sign-off for all of their personal behaviors, much as I would suspect that your fondness for TC is not a sign off of all of his "idiosyncrasies". 

I have no fondness for TC as a person.  Never have, made that clear for well over 2000 days....probably more like 3000+

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 07, 2013, 08:08:27 PM
I also find that he doesn't do things that some of the others do that I find not appealing at all (i.e. cheating on your wife constantly in public, etc, etc, etc).  

So it's safe to say you bought Crean's explanation of his extraordinarily curious tweet referencing thinking about somebody a "whole lot." I sure as hell don't. Nobody talks that way to a high school boy unless you're a defensive coordinator for Penn State. Who was this recruit Crean couldn't stop thinking about?

EDIT: It seems to me his sudden discovery of religion happened shortly after this Twitter "gaffe."

Rican, you mean this kinda stuff?

Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on August 08, 2013, 06:18:12 AM
So it's safe to say you bought Crean's explanation of his extraordinarily curious tweet referencing thinking about somebody a "whole lot." I sure as hell don't. Nobody talks that way to a high school boy unless you're a defensive coordinator for Penn State. Who was this recruit Crean couldn't stop thinking about?

EDIT: It seems to me his sudden discovery of religion happened shortly after this Twitter "gaffe."

My guess is you wouldn't give him the benefit of the doubt on anything PRN.  You were the one that insisted he was giving Isaiah's number out to players on the team now when it had been done like 6 times since Isaiah graduated.  You were the one that insisted he created the name Gold, when the evidence shows he didn't.  Etc etc.  As for his discovery of religion, no he's been pretty devout his whole life according to family and friends....unless you don't want to read those stories from the very first days he was hired at MU (long before Twitter was even invented).  But hey, what's stopping you from floating another one of your doozies.  If there was evidence of what you are talking about, it would be out.  That's quite a charge, like many you have leveled that have fallen flat.

And for the record, I don't like that he flouts is religion, it should be a private thing. Once in awhile, fine, but he does it too much in my opinion.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 07, 2013, 11:24:41 PM
I have no fondness for TC as a person.  Never have, made that clear for well over 2000 days....probably more like 3000+

On one hand you say he's a douche. On the other hand you write thousands of post defending him as both a coach and a person. You even accuse those of us who agree that he's a douche of calling the players who liked him (Wade, Novak, Diener) stupid. Mixed signals, but when "He's a douche, but..." and the "but" is a defense of him the length of "War and Peace" it's hard to take the "he's a douche" part seriously.

Quote from: The Lens on August 07, 2013, 04:40:03 PM
I know Buzz has a schtick but that's who he is...he plays a game.  Calls himself dumb, etc...that's an act, I get it. 

TC has no schtick because he has no idea who he is, it changes nearly every day.    He can't even figure out who to pretend to be because he's so phony to begin with.  He's CMO always trying to sell you something. 

If you can't figure out that there's an appealing realness to Buzz, KO and Mike Deane, I don't know what to tell you.  You and I are just wired differently.

A salesman is a salesman. To me, I don't care whether they sell the same thing every day or a different thing every tomorrow looking for the next best thing. In the end all they want is for you to buy their words.

I just find it funny that an adult can recognize the endgame is the same for both yet only consider one of the salesmen to be genuine. But the world is filled with all types so might as well have a beer and laugh.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 08, 2013, 09:19:05 AM
On one hand you say he's a douche. On the other hand you write thousands of post defending him as both a coach and a person. You even accuse those of us who agree that he's a douche of calling the players who liked him (Wade, Novak, Diener) stupid. Mixed signals, but when "He's a douche, but..." and the "but" is a defense of him the length of "War and Peace" it's hard to take the "he's a douche" part seriously.

You don't have to like someone as a person to appreciate what they did for our team. The fact is, without Crean there is no Dwayne Wade, there is no Final Four, there is no move to the Big East, and there is no Buzz. We would still be schmucking around in Conference USA or maybe the Atlantic 10 telling everyone how great we were in the seventies. Besides the one Sweet 16 in 94, there were not very many bright spots for us post Al. TC was the one who started us on our push back towards being a blue blood again. The least we can do is show some gratitude.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 08, 2013, 09:19:05 AM
On one hand you say he's a douche. On the other hand you write thousands of post defending him as both a coach and a person. You even accuse those of us who agree that he's a douche of calling the players who liked him (Wade, Novak, Diener) stupid. Mixed signals, but when "He's a douche, but..." and the "but" is a defense of him the length of "War and Peace" it's hard to take the "he's a douche" part seriously.

Nope, that is simply not true.  I have said for years he was a jerk to work for, a douche, etc.  If you can find posts where I've said he is a swell guy...where I SAID IT...please provide.  I have, to your point, said the guys that KNOW HIM BEST, the people that played for him seem to like him....not a bunch of grumpy old men on a message board that don't know him.  Take that for what it is worth, but that is how THOSE guys feel about him.

Please, show me where I have said what a swell guy TC is?  I'd love to see it.  I don't think he is the monster some of you make him out to be, but he certainly isn't an endearing person nor one I have ever said was.  Reading is your friend Lenny.

My "defense" of him is as a coach who put us back in the limelight, graduated players, brought us fantastic players, a Final Four, Big East, etc.  My "defense" of him as a person is not there, though I am happy to point out that when someone says how endearing a compete dirtbag like KO is and in the same breath wants to take shots at TC, I have to wonder how much they truly know about what KO did.  One was a jerk, one is a despicable husband, father, a-hole, and many other things that I will not mention here that happened.  If that is "defending" TC as a good person, so be it....I would call it pointing out the hypocrisy of KO vs TC....neither of which are wonderful guys, but one has a more fun attitude so he is cool while the other one is a two faced jerk but hasn't done nearly the crap to family, etc that the cool guy has.

I'm sure in the course of your long life you have liked someone your wife hasn't, or vice versa.  Or a colleague you thought highly of that other colleagues didn't.  Are those mixed signals?  Is it ok that I don't care for TC but at the same time point out that Wade, Novak, Diener, etc all publicly do?  I'd say you are stretching way out of your element on that charge of mixed signals.

I used to think the only reason Crean got a job is because someone thought he could get them Michigan Football Tickets. 
Now that he's at IU I know for sure.
2012 Indiana Hoosiers Football Schedule
Final Record: 4-8, 2-6 (Big Ten)

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 08, 2013, 10:13:11 AM
Nope, that is simply not true.  I have said for years he was a jerk to work for, a douche, etc.  If you can find posts where I've said he is a swell guy...where I SAID IT...please provide.  I have, to your point, said the guys that KNOW HIM BEST, the people that played for him seem to like him....not a bunch of grumpy old men on a message board that don't know him.  Take that for what it is worth, but that is how THOSE guys feel about him.

Please, show me where I have said what a swell guy TC is?  I'd love to see it.  I don't think he is the monster some of you make him out to be, but he certainly isn't an endearing person nor one I have ever said was.  Reading is your friend Lenny.

My "defense" of him is as a coach who put us back in the limelight, graduated players, brought us fantastic players, a Final Four, Big East, etc.  My "defense" of him as a person is not there, though I am happy to point out that when someone says how endearing a compete dirtbag like KO is and in the same breath wants to take shots at TC, I have to wonder how much they truly know about what KO did.  One was a jerk, one is a despicable husband, father, a-hole, and many other things that I will not mention here that happened.  If that is "defending" TC as a good person, so be it....I would call it pointing out the hypocrisy of KO vs TC....neither of which are wonderful guys, but one has a more fun attitude so he is cool while the other one is a two faced jerk but hasn't done nearly the crap to family, etc that the cool guy has.

I'm sure in the course of your long life you have liked someone your wife hasn't, or vice versa.  Or a colleague you thought highly of that other colleagues didn't.  Are those mixed signals?  Is it ok that I don't care for TC but at the same time point out that Wade, Novak, Diener, etc all publicly do?  I'd say you are stretching way out of your element on that charge of mixed signals.

I've not read all the pages of this thread (without BBall games being played I have less interest in spending hours on here each day)... but I agree with Chicos more than I disagree.

I am absolutely thrilled with how Tom Crean came to MU, performed here, and left.... what more could we have asked for?

I enjoy a good Crean embarrassment at IU, don't get me wrong... but what is there to be upset about? The man gave us Wade, a Final Four, Buzz, and then he left!

He was the perfect guy for our program: a self-promoter and solid recruiter early in his career.

But he is such a douche and I love that he's not our coach anymore.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 08, 2013, 08:59:43 AM
My guess is you wouldn't give him the benefit of the doubt on anything PRN.  You were the one that insisted he was giving Isaiah's number out to players on the team now when it had been done like 6 times since Isaiah graduated.  You were the one that insisted he created the name Gold, when the evidence shows he didn't.  Etc etc.  As for his discovery of religion, no he's been pretty devout his whole life according to family and friends....unless you don't want to read those stories from the very first days he was hired at MU (long before Twitter was even invented).  But hey, what's stopping you from floating another one of your doozies.  If there was evidence of what you are talking about, it would be out.  That's quite a charge, like many you have leveled that have fallen flat.

And for the record, I don't like that he flouts is religion, it should be a private thing. Once in awhile, fine, but he does it too much in my opinion.

Gold was Crean's idea. And he has given out Thomas's number. What other "doozies?"

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 08, 2013, 10:13:11 AM


I'm sure in the course of your long life you have liked someone your wife hasn't, or vice versa.  Or a colleague you thought highly of that other colleagues didn't.  Are those mixed signals?  Is it ok that I don't care for TC but at the same time point out that Wade, Novak, Diener, etc all publicly do?  I'd say you are stretching way out of your element on that charge of mixed signals.

My wife and I so rarely dislike people that it really doesn't come up.

When you say "I don't care for someone, but people who know know him way better than me think he's great" what I hear is "This guy's probably a good guy once you get to know him". I think this is BS. There is not a coach anywhere that isn't publicly supported by some of his ex players. What does it prove? That a guy can ingratiate himself to young, unsophisticated people whom he can use down the road? Big deal, especially if the same guy is pushing around secretaries and waitresses along the way. The real questioned being begged, though, is why a guy who allegedly thinks TC is a douche is looking under sofas for anything (no matter how meaningless) to prove himself wrong.

Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on August 08, 2013, 06:18:12 AM
So it's safe to say you bought Crean's explanation of his extraordinarily curious tweet referencing thinking about somebody a "whole lot." I sure as hell don't. Nobody talks that way to a high school boy unless you're a defensive coordinator for Penn State. Who was this recruit Crean couldn't stop thinking about?

EDIT: It seems to me his sudden discovery of religion happened shortly after this Twitter "gaffe."

Do you think it was actually about a woman? I find it perfectly possible that Crean would address a male like this...

Let me play Henry Kissinger and find common ground and then we can settle the differences one by one:

Both sides think Crean is a douche, a used car salesman, is incredibly self-serving, left the wrong way, had success at MU, graduated his players, stayed out of more NCAA trouble than he has at IU, helped take the program to the next level, some of his MU players loved him and others hated him, like Buzz he had a lot of transfers, drank Diet Pepsi at MU and Diet Coke at IU only because they were sponsors not for preference, not too many liked working with or for him, Dick Strong and Bill Cords are friends, he becomes a turtle in close game situations, has a bad haircut to go with too long a tie, is incredibly insecure in many ways ranging from camp awards to name dropping to handshake fights, and once got a ticket by Ricky's for driving the wrong way.  

We can move on from these arguments.

Points of contention:  Father of The Gold, only reason MU got into the Big East, he made DWade and not the other way around, George Thompson's number wasn't retired just his jersey, is religious, committed three minor recruiting violations while IU was on major probation, won the first Big Ten conference title for IU in 20 years, the team he left at MU was a Final Four team only because of the players/recruits who left Buzz after Crean left (except the one who followed him to IU and then left there), his father-in-law had a full time job at MU, and Joani has good interior design tastes.

Did I miss anything?  Maybe this will help keep the Crean threads down to 50 a month.

Kyle Neddenriep ‏@KyleNeddenriep 14m

Confirmed James Blackmon Jr. has opened up recruitment from Indiana.

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on August 08, 2013, 03:11:23 PM
Kyle Neddenriep ‏@KyleNeddenriep 14m

Confirmed James Blackmon Jr. has opened up recruitment from Indiana.

OH MY GOSH.

WOW.

Kid is awesome.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on August 08, 2013, 03:07:11 PM
Let me play Henry Kissinger and find common ground and then we can settle the differences one by one:

Both sides think Crean is a douche, a used car salesman, is incredibly self-serving, left the wrong way, had success at MU, graduated his players, stayed out of more NCAA trouble than he has at IU, helped take the program to the next level, some of his MU players loved him and others hated him, like Buzz he had a lot of transfers, drank Diet Pepsi at MU and Diet Coke at IU only because they were sponsors not for preference, not too many liked working with or for him, Dick Strong and Bill Cords are friends, he becomes a turtle in close game situations, has a bad haircut to go with too long a tie, is incredibly insecure in many ways ranging from camp awards to name dropping to handshake fights, and once got a ticket by Ricky's for driving the wrong way.  

We can move on from these arguments.

Points of contention:  Father of The Gold, only reason MU got into the Big East, he made DWade and not the other way around, George Thompson's number wasn't retired just his jersey, is religious, committed three minor recruiting violations while IU was on major probation, won the first Big Ten conference title for IU in 20 years, the team he left at MU was a Final Four team only because of the players/recruits who left Buzz after Crean left (except the one who followed him to IU and then left there), his father-in-law had a full time job at MU, and Joani has good interior design tastes.

Did I miss anything?  Maybe this will help keep the Crean threads down to 50 a month.

Post of the year.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on August 08, 2013, 03:07:11 PM
Let me play Henry Kissinger and find common ground and then we can settle the differences one by one:

Both sides think Crean is a douche, a used car salesman, is incredibly self-serving, left the wrong way, had success at MU, graduated his players, stayed out of more NCAA trouble than he has at IU, helped take the program to the next level, some of his MU players loved him and others hated him, like Buzz he had a lot of transfers, drank Diet Pepsi at MU and Diet Coke at IU only because they were sponsors not for preference, not too many liked working with or for him, Dick Strong and Bill Cords are friends, he becomes a turtle in close game situations, has a bad haircut to go with too long a tie, is incredibly insecure in many ways ranging from camp awards to name dropping to handshake fights, and once got a ticket by Ricky's for driving the wrong way.  

We can move on from these arguments.

Points of contention:  Father of The Gold, only reason MU got into the Big East, he made DWade and not the other way around, George Thompson's number wasn't retired just his jersey, is religious, committed three minor recruiting violations while IU was on major probation, won the first Big Ten conference title for IU in 20 years, the team he left at MU was a Final Four team only because of the players/recruits who left Buzz after Crean left (except the one who followed him to IU and then left there), his father-in-law had a full time job at MU, and Joani has good interior design tastes.

Did I miss anything?  Maybe this will help keep the Crean threads down to 50 a month.

Barometric chamber?

Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on August 09, 2013, 05:51:41 AM
Barometric chamber?

Think that would be "hyperbaric".

"Barometric" would be like barometric pressure, which is something that TC succumbs to in tight games.

Or you may have meant the "hyperbolic" chamber that TC sleeps in so he can speak in hyperbole.

Quote from: leever on August 09, 2013, 02:12:53 PM
Think that would be "hyperbaric".

"Barometric" would be like barometric pressure, which is something that TC succumbs to in tight games.

Or you may have meant the "hyperbolic" chamber that TC sleeps in so he can speak in hyperbole.

This made my day.

Crean's buyout if IU fires him just dropped from $16MM to $14MM (http://latenighthoops.com/crean-buyout/#.UgVJAJK1Foo).

Wonder what Buzz's is. (Not that that issue should ever come up.)

Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on August 08, 2013, 12:58:29 PM
Gold was Crean's idea. And he has given out Thomas's number. What other "doozies?"

Something tells me you know next to nothing about where TC stood in that whole nickname situation.

Quote from: brewcity77 on August 10, 2013, 03:39:31 PM
Something tells me you know next to nothing about where TC stood in that whole nickname situation.

Something tells me you're 100% wrong.

Buzz is ranked the 5th best recruiter in this poll http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/23147374/candid-coaches-all-things-equal-who-is-basketballs-top-recruiter

Quote from: swoopem on August 14, 2013, 10:37:53 AM
Buzz is ranked the 5th best recruiter in this poll http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/23147374/candid-coaches-all-things-equal-who-is-basketballs-top-recruiter

Key to this poll and what makes it more meaningful than non adjusted rankings:"All resources being equal". Of course Roy Williams can out recruit Buzz given the vastly uneven playing field. Hell, even a TC can. All things even close to equal, no way

I don't mean this in the wrong way, but last November when this AP report and various others came out, what did you (anyone reading this) take this to mean (especially the bolded part)?

Quote from: Associated Press, November 2012Crean's base salary will go from approximately $2.52 million per year to $3.16 million. The deal also includes performance bonuses based on Academic Progress Rate scores, Graduation Success Rate scores and the team's GPA. If all standards are met, Crean's salary could increase by as much as $55,000 per year.

The buyout, Glass said, would cost $8 million over the next three years, then drops to $1 million in Year 4 and drops again to $500,000 over the final four years of the deal. School officials said additional contract details will be announce when the deal is formally signed.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on August 08, 2013, 03:07:11 PM
Let me play Henry Kissinger and find common ground and then we can settle the differences one by one:

Both sides think Crean is a douche, a used car salesman, is incredibly self-serving, left the wrong way, had success at MU, graduated his players, stayed out of more NCAA trouble than he has at IU, helped take the program to the next level, some of his MU players loved him and others hated him, like Buzz he had a lot of transfers, drank Diet Pepsi at MU and Diet Coke at IU only because they were sponsors not for preference, not too many liked working with or for him, Dick Strong and Bill Cords are friends, he becomes a turtle in close game situations, has a bad haircut to go with too long a tie, is incredibly insecure in many ways ranging from camp awards to name dropping to handshake fights, and once got a ticket by Ricky's for driving the wrong way.  

We can move on from these arguments.

Points of contention:  Father of The Gold, only reason MU got into the Big East, he made DWade and not the other way around, George Thompson's number wasn't retired just his jersey, is religious, committed three minor recruiting violations while IU was on major probation, won the first Big Ten conference title for IU in 20 years, the team he left at MU was a Final Four team only because of the players/recruits who left Buzz after Crean left (except the one who followed him to IU and then left there), his father-in-law had a full time job at MU, and Joani has good interior design tastes.

Did I miss anything?  Maybe this will help keep the Crean threads down to 50 a month.

Don't forget Crean gave his own kids trophies at his bball clinic, his rudeness to waiters, and his mystery donation to MU Soccer.   Think that covers it.

If we really want to cover all the bases then we have to include ATVs and tae kwon doe

Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on August 09, 2013, 05:51:41 AM
Barometric chamber?

The Riley Crean Memorial Best in Camp Award.

Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on August 14, 2013, 01:47:56 PM
The Riley Crean Memorial Best in Camp Award.

My dad was my baseball coach as a kid (10-16 years old).  I needed to be way better (and I wasn't) to make an all star team (voted on by coaches in the division). 

If Crean were an honorable guy, he would have told the people making the decision to back off of Riley.

Over Under on Riley as a walk on at IU?

Quote from: mu-rara on August 14, 2013, 02:06:42 PM
My dad was my baseball coach as a kid (10-16 years old).  I needed to be way better (and I wasn't) to make an all star team (voted on by coaches in the division). 

If Crean were an honorable guy, he would have told the people making the decision to back off of Riley.

Over Under on Riley as a walk on at IU?

(http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h171/owentimo/absolutely.gif)

Quote from: mu-rara on August 14, 2013, 02:06:42 PM
My dad was my baseball coach as a kid (10-16 years old).  I needed to be way better (and I wasn't) to make an all star team (voted on by coaches in the division). 

If Crean were an honorable guy, he would have told the people making the decision to back off of Riley.

Over Under on Riley as a walk on at IU?

Nah, Coach Clover will front him a schollie.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 14, 2013, 03:25:42 PM

Nah, Coach Clover will front him a schollie.

Hah, I wasn't going to go that far, but who knows?

Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on August 08, 2013, 12:58:29 PM
Gold was Crean's idea. And he has given out Thomas's number. What other "doozies?"

Proof that it was his idea, especially in light of one agency already admitting it was their idea.

Yes, he gave out Thomas's number as did Knight, Davis, Dakich, etc who also did it prior.

Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on August 10, 2013, 10:03:02 PM
Something tells me you're 100% wrong.

LOL....try again

"But would Marquette remain the Golden Eagles, or something entirely new? Board member Ann Zizzo, of the Zizzo Group, and her team landed on the "Gold". The Marquette Gold. Really? But then again, the Zizzo Group also suggested we name the 27th Street Corridor "Boomgard"."

Quote from: Jay Bee on August 09, 2013, 03:04:43 PM
Crean's buyout if IU fires him just dropped from $16MM to $14MM (http://latenighthoops.com/crean-buyout/#.UgVJAJK1Foo).

Wonder what Buzz's is. (Not that that issue should ever come up.)

I'd like to know where Latenighthoops thinks the buyout is $16M.  Latenight hoops has a weird way of reading it in my opinion, which is why I don't buy their take on the Alford \ UCLA stuff either.  Page 11 outlines the buyout pretty straight forward.  The only thing I can think Latenight or PAA is doing is adding up the numbers. 

Here is his original contract.   http://www.insidethehall.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/creanfinalcontract.pdf

Last year he signed an extension, which changed the terms of the buyout, but nowhere close to what is stated by Latenighthoops.  http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8612449/indiana-hoosiers-sign-tom-crean-contract-extension

All of this stuff is a matter of public record.  

NOTE:  I assume you are part of Latenighthoops and Pleasant Avenue Athletics in some way.  I'm happy to hook you up directly with Fred Glass via email if that helps...if you wish to confirm your work.  I don't see how you guys are getting your numbers based on the original contract or the comments made by the AD, which he would be called to task for very quickly considering he is a state employee and TC's contract is a state contract.  There would be no reason for him to misrepresent the terms of the buyout in public.  Let me know if I can help.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 19, 2013, 11:05:57 PM
I'd like to know where Latenighthoops thinks the buyout is $16M.  Latenight hoops has a weird way of reading it in my opinion, which is why I don't buy their take on the Alford \ UCLA stuff either.  Page 11 outlines the buyout pretty straight forward.  The only thing I can think Latenight or PAA is doing is adding up the numbers. 

Here is his original contract.   http://www.insidethehall.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/creanfinalcontract.pdf

Last year he signed an extension, which changed the terms of the buyout, but nowhere close to what is stated by Latenighthoops.  http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8612449/indiana-hoosiers-sign-tom-crean-contract-extension

All of this stuff is a matter of public record.  

NOTE:  I assume you are part of Latenighthoops and Pleasant Avenue Athletics in some way.  I'm happy to hook you up directly with Fred Glass via email if that helps...if you wish to confirm your work.  I don't see how you guys are getting your numbers based on the original contract or the comments made by the AD, which he would be called to task for very quickly considering he is a state employee and TC's contract is a state contract.  There would be no reason for him to misrepresent the terms of the buyout in public.  Let me know if I can help.

Chicos, in the Alford thread you commented:

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 13, 2013, 01:17:25 PM
I guess Yahoo Sports, ESPN, SI, CBS, etc, etc...we're all naive but "LateNightHoops" has it nailed. 

Yes, this is just another example. Late Night Hoops once again has it nailed while seemingly everyone else is in the dark and/or has misreported.

It sounds like you are the one who should be talking to Mr. Glass. I already know the facts. You seem to have questions as to why he would "misrepresent the terms of the contract" (which is your characterization, not mine).

To be clear, the LateNightHoops.com article states that the buyout is now down to $14MM (had been $16MM) (http://latenighthoops.com/crean-buyout/#.UhNeapK1FoQ). I'm still curious as to your thoughts on the buyout amounts
as detailed in the linked article. Until you're ready to admit LNH is correct and everyone else is "naive" (or intentionally misrepresenting as you appear to be believe), just pretend that the information is spot on - what are your thoughts on the buyout amounts? High? Doesn't matter? UCLA is a far better than Indiana?

How did Latenight Hoops nail it when the contract clearly shows they didn't?  That is my question....you seem to be saying the $16M or the newly argued $14M is accurate when the contracts that are a matter of public record don't indicate this and furthermore fly in the face of what the AD, President of the school, etc are saying.

I'm simply asking the question, how is Latenighthoops and PAA coming up with their answers?  Hard for me to concur they've nailed anything without that knowledge.  Produce that and we can talk.  Right now, we have the actual contracts saying something totally different along with the people representing the school vs a blog in Minnesota claiming something else without any documentation to substantiate it.  You may be 100% right, but I'd like to see the evidence and more importantly, public response from IU.   The Herald would love this information, if you are right, you should send it to them....but again, you need to provide the info.  Until then, why on earth would they get a pass on Alford either?  Need the evidence.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 20, 2013, 09:57:19 AM
How did Latenight Hoops nail it when the contract clearly shows they didn't?  That is my question....you seem to be saying the $16M or the newly argued $14M is accurate when the contracts that are a matter of public record don't indicate this and furthermore fly in the face of what the AD, President of the school, etc are saying.

I'm simply asking the question, how is Latenighthoops and PAA coming up with their answers?  Hard for me to concur they've nailed anything without that knowledge.  Produce that and we can talk.  Right now, we have the actual contracts saying something totally different along with the people representing the school vs a blog in Minnesota claiming something else without any documentation to substantiate it.  You may be 100% right, but I'd like to see the evidence and more importantly, public response from IU.   The Herald would love this information, if you are right, you should send it to them....but again, you need to provide the info.  Until then, why on earth would they get a pass on Alford either?  Need the evidence.

Why not just answer the question? Go ahead and send "the Herald" the link to the LNH story; maybe they'll get on it & "confirm" to you what I already know.

I don't need you to tell me what an old, superseded contract from many years ago said. The truth (and character?) will be revealed.

Sounds like you think this is a pretty big deal. "Flies in the face" if what IU said? Sheesh; tough language.

Quote from: Jay Bee on August 20, 2013, 12:32:30 PM
Why not just answer the question? Go ahead and send "the Herald" the link to the LNH story; maybe they'll get on it & "confirm" to you what I already know.

I don't need you to tell me what an old, superseded contract from many years ago said. The truth (and character?) will be revealed.

Sounds like you think this is a pretty big deal. "Flies in the face" if what IU said? Sheesh; tough language.

Chico's pissed because his pal Fred (he has his email address, dontcha know) didn't send him a heads up. How dare you get info not privy to an IU insider?

Quote from: Jay Bee on August 20, 2013, 12:32:30 PM
Why not just answer the question? Go ahead and send "the Herald" the link to the LNH story; maybe they'll get on it & "confirm" to you what I already know.

I don't need you to tell me what an old, superseded contract from many years ago said. The truth (and character?) will be revealed.

Sounds like you think this is a pretty big deal. "Flies in the face" if what IU said? Sheesh; tough language.

Sorry, didn't mean for it to come across as "tough" language.  The number you are stating is just so drastically different than what is publicly out there and easily obtainable with open information laws.  That's why I said flies in the face...there is no motive for the AD to state that when it can be easily dissuaded.  Especially in light of some posts here recently that were patently false about private plane trips to Omaha, etc, etc. 

The contract I sent you was the 2008 contract, I don't have the 2012 contract.  Like I said, if you are right you are right, though it would puzzle me why Glass would come out and say $8M, which is a lot different than $16M.    I guess I'm still waiting for you to answer my question, what are you basing your $16M off of?

I did send it to Dustin at the Herald as well as Terry Hutchens (though Terry's role with the Indianapolis Star changed and he's now at Fox \ Scout) .  I worked with Terry as a grad student many years ago on the Indiana - Kentucky high school all star game which the Star sponsored. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 20, 2013, 02:45:59 PM
Sorry, didn't mean for it to come across as "tough" language.  The number you are stating is just so drastically different than what is publicly out there .  

What's "publicly out there", though? I heard second hand & it was widely reported that Glass said a contract would be given to the media when finalized and that "the buyout costs $8MM"...

Now, mainstream media routinely gets things wrong, but I would agree it appears IU's message was that the buyout was referring to the cost to buy out Crean, not what Crean would pay to buy it out.

However, it depends what your definition of "is" is. What difference - at this point - what difference does it make? Squirmy?

Technically IU could say "well we meant the buyout Crean would owe us!... We weren't talking about what we would owe, silly! And, we routinely provide info request packages to the local newspapers.. They have the contract - maybe they just didn't read or understand the contract. The folks at Pleasant Avenue are professionals when it comes to college coaching contracts (football & men's basketball) so I'm not surprised they'd have this nailed while the masses remained clueless."

Again, who says they have this "nailed"?  Because you say it's so doesn't mean it is so.  You and they may be right, but we know what is out there as part of the public record is so drastically different than what their conclusion is, I think asking for some clarity is out of bounds.  If they don't have it, that's fine.  If they do, even better.  Maybe when the new contract comes out it says $16M or $14M....if so, then that would explain things.  That's all I'm asking for, something that has some tie back into some data or document.  Fair?

As for squirmy, what on earth would be squirmy about it?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 20, 2013, 06:30:39 PM
Again, who says they have this "nailed"?  Because you say it's so doesn't mean it is so.  You and they may be right, but we know what is out there as part of the public record is so drastically different than what their conclusion is, I think asking for some clarity is out of bounds.  If they don't have it, that's fine.  If they do, even better.  Maybe when the new contract comes out it says $16M or $14M....if so, then that would explain things.  That's all I'm asking for, something that has some tie back into some data or document.  Fair?

As for squirmy, what on earth would be squirmy about it?

You're stating that what IU has publicly claimed is "so drastically different" than what the truth is. I thought that might make you squirmy. What the contract says is already detailed out for you at LateNightHoops.com.

Since you don't want to believe it, can you pretend and give your opinion on the amounts "as if they were true"? More likely is that once once you become satisfied that indeed LNH has it nailed, you'll just say "well, it's really no big deal. I think the amounts are cool and the fact no traditional media or IU reported on it is no big deal either"... if that's going to be your eventual response, then just say it now.

Also, would be curious on as to your definition of a "blog". What makes a blog "a blog" and what is/are the alternatives? How does "a blog" become something else? Is this a subjective definition or something you just "feel"?

Quote from: Jay Bee on August 20, 2013, 10:24:42 PM
You're stating that what IU has publicly claimed is "so drastically different" than what the truth is. I thought that might make you squirmy. What the contract says is already detailed out for you at LateNightHoops.com.

No, what is claimed on Latenighthoops is their interpretation of a contract....I'd like to see the contract.  Right now it's "take our word for it".  I don't think it is too much to ask for the source of the numbers.  Fair? 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 21, 2013, 11:39:05 AM
No, what is claimed on Latenighthoops is their interpretation of a contract....I'd like to see the contract.  Right now it's "take our word for it".  I don't think it is too much to ask for the source of the numbers.  Fair? 

You're stating that *if what Late Night Hoops says* is true (which it is), then what IU has publicly claimed is "so drastically different" than the truth. I thought that might make you squirmy.

You emailed and shared the response of your guy when someone posted something about an in-flight conversation... maybe just ask your guy as you'll trust him.

The reality is people get stuff wrong all the time. It doesn't make me squirmy so much as it is just another interesting example of how misunderstood MANY THINGS are by the public and traditional media.. and it's  another interesting example of fake outrage (crying over UCLA's mirror provisions, but no comment on a $16MM buyout figure) that is selective and incredibly lazy.

The average person isn't very bright. You know that, Chicos. That's why I'm surprised that you're so surprised that LNH has it nailed (once again) while others are way off.

Quote from: swoopem on August 07, 2013, 08:20:07 AM
Check out this steller Crean recruit, Devan Dumes charged with attempted murder http://www.indystar.com/article/20130130/SPORTS0601/130130034/Former-Indiana-basketball-player-Devan-Dumes-charged-attempted-murder

Verdict in....helping out since it seemed to be important to you.   :D

http://www.indystar.com/article/20130917/NEWS02/309170068/Former-IU-basketball-player-Devan-Dumes-found-not-guilty-attempted-murder?odyssey=mod|breaking|text|IndyStar.com

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on September 18, 2013, 06:20:03 PM
Verdict in....helping out since it seemed to be important to you.   :D

http://www.indystar.com/article/20130917/NEWS02/309170068/Former-IU-basketball-player-Devan-Dumes-found-not-guilty-attempted-murder?odyssey=mod|breaking|text|IndyStar.com

Awesome; think Crean will have him work at his fantasy bball camp now?

I was hoping this post would be you finally admitting I was right re: Crean's contract.

Guess I'll have to wait.

Quote from: Jay Bee on September 18, 2013, 06:26:22 PM
Awesome; think Crean will have him work at his fantasy bball camp now?

I was hoping this post would be you finally admitting I was right re: Crean's contract.

Guess I'll have to wait.

Not yet, need the documents...can you email to me?

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on August 08, 2013, 03:11:23 PM
Kyle Neddenriep ‏@KyleNeddenriep 14m

Confirmed James Blackmon Jr. has opened up recruitment from Indiana.

Confirmed, he chose IU over Kentucky, Kansas, Michigan, Michigan State last night

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 01, 2013, 04:20:22 PM
Confirmed, he chose IU over Kentucky, Kansas, Michigan, Michigan State last night

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/117563/james-blackmon-jr

This guy's 17 years old?  The dude looks 45, at least!

Less height in the 2014 IU class than the 2014 MU class.   

Quote from: tower912 on November 01, 2013, 04:54:20 PM
Less height in the 2014 IU class than the 2014 MU class.   

It's alright.  They have Luke Fischer  ::).  Some people like Willie would rather have Luke Fischer than Davante Gardner because they see "7'" and "top 100" and think that automatically equates to "stud big."  Davante still doesn't qualify as "stud big" because he was a 2 star and is only 6'8".

Quote from: wadesworld on November 01, 2013, 04:56:25 PM
It's alright.  They have Luke Fischer  ::).  Some people like Willie would rather have Luke Fischer than Davante Gardner because they see "7'" and "top 100" and think that automatically equates to "stud big."  Davante still doesn't qualify as "stud big" because he was a 2 star and is only 6'8".

Uh, they also have Noah Vonleh, 6ft 10 (top 10 recruit), Fisher at 6ft 11, Troy Williams at 6ft 7 and Devin Davis at 6ft 8.  All freshman. 

So Crean is filling a need.    BTW, his current roster lists 18 players.    Which are the walk ons?

Quote from: nyg on November 01, 2013, 05:00:19 PM
Uh, they also have Noah Vonleh, 6ft 10 (top 10 recruit), Fisher at 6ft 11, Troy Williams at 6ft 7 and Devin Davis at 6ft 8.  All freshman. 

Just saying I'd rather have a 6'8" banger who gets the job done than a 7' softy.

Quote from: wadesworld on November 01, 2013, 05:12:40 PM
Just saying I'd rather have a 6'8" banger who gets the job done than a 7' softy.

You are referring to basketball players, correct?

Quote from: Ners on November 01, 2013, 06:35:47 PM
You are referring to basketball players, correct?

Well in Willie's case, he'd rather have 7" instead of 6-8".  Can't blame him.

Quote from: wadesworld on November 01, 2013, 04:56:25 PM
It's alright.  They have Luke Fischer  ::).  Some people like Willie would rather have Luke Fischer than Davante Gardner because they see "7'" and "top 100" and think that automatically equates to "stud big."  Davante still doesn't qualify as "stud big" because he was a 2 star and is only 6'8".

I wish we had Fischer....nice player.  They have plenty of height

Quote from: tower912 on November 01, 2013, 05:10:09 PM
So Crean is filling a need.    BTW, his current roster lists 18 players.    Which are the walk ons?

I'm sure he and Buzz will talk about who gets Creaned or Buzzcut.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 01, 2013, 07:10:47 PM
I wish we had Fischer....nice player.  They have plenty of height

Lots of young talent. Being in Indy, the population seems to understand they're young this season, but are loaded. If everyone pans out, could be outstanding in the next 2-3 years.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 01, 2013, 07:10:47 PM
I wish we had Fischer....nice player.  They have plenty of height

Never seen him play but from what I've heard I'd agree.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 01, 2013, 07:10:47 PM
I wish we had Fischer....nice player.  They have plenty of height

He'll be OK but he doesn't play big enough for a guy that size with that kind of athleticism. He's certainly big. But even Coach Schowalter would be ON him for not rebounding like he should or getting pushed around down low. Obviously part of that was to motivate him as well, but for being so much bigger than everyone else on the court he did not dominate like he should've the times I saw him at Germantown. Time will tell.

If I remember correctly Brookfield Central's version of Davante Gardner (6'4" instead of 6'8" though) had at least 20 and 10 on Fischer last year. 1 game though.

I do agree, though, that I'd like to have him. 1 year under Otule and Gardner and at the very least he could've been a defensive force.

Quote from: jesmu84 on November 01, 2013, 07:34:38 PM
Lots of young talent. Being in Indy, the population seems to understand they're young this season, but are loaded. If everyone pans out, could be outstanding in the next 2-3 years.

I kind of think middle of the conference this year.  Will lose some games they shouldn't do to inexperience, will win a few they shouldn't.  Depending on who comes back next year, yes they could be very very good next year.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 01, 2013, 08:58:46 PM
I kind of think middle of the conference this year.  Will lose some games they shouldn't do to inexperience, will win a few they shouldn't.  Depending on who comes back next year, yes they could be very very good next year.

I think they are still a top 25 team. I think Vonleh is every bit a stud as anyone on Kentucky's roster.