Buzz a better recruiter than Tom Crean...

[ChicosBailBonds]

But you never bring Crean up 

Not to start a thread anymore and almost never in a thread unless responding to something, but I'm sure there are a few exceptions out there.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yeah let's compare him to majerus who never got us to the tournament or O'Neill and Deane who both only had two ncaa appearances in their tenure here.  There's only three coaches worth comparing based on success and thats Al Crean and Buzz.

I think if you have been around this board long enough you would know why I said that.

As for Mike, he started out pretty well at MU.  NIT Final, two NCAA tournaments and a CUSA tournament championship.  By year 5, fired.  That's why I like to wait 5 years before fully getting on board.   

[wadesworld]

Not to start a thread anymore and almost never in a thread unless responding to something, but I'm sure there are a few exceptions out there.

Fair enough.  Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly in thinking that you bring him up without any sign of Crean previously in the thread your fair amount.

[Lennys Tap]

As for Mike, he started out pretty well at MU.  NIT Final, two NCAA tournaments and a CUSA tournament championship.  By year 5, fired.  That's why I like to wait 5 years before fully getting on board.   

O'Neill left a lot in the pipeline for Mike and Deane pretty much lived off it. In year one, TC's players looked better coached under Buzz than they ever had under Crean. The cupboard was nearly bare for Buzz in year 2 and completely bare in year 3. So, much different than Deane for anyone who was paying attention.pretty obvious from the jump. By the end of January 09 I was sold.

[The Equalizer]

O'Neill left a lot in the pipeline for Mike and Deane pretty much lived off it. In year one, TC's players looked better coached under Buzz than they ever had under Crean. The cupboard was nearly bare for Buzz in year 2 and completely bare in year 3. So, much different than Deane for anyone who was paying attention.pretty obvious from the jump. By the end of January 09 I was sold.

Every coach taking a new job should consider himself extremely lucky to inherit a cupboard this "bare":

Srs:
1. Burke
2. Matthews
3. McNeal
4. James

Jrs.
5. Cubillan
6. Acker
7. Hayward

Sophs.
8 Christopherson
9. Mbakwe
10. Hazel
11. Fulce

Fr.
12. Otule
 
The notion of the "bare cupboard" is one of the enduring myths of Buzz's tenure. 

The fact of the matter is that the two players that left (Nick Wlliams and Tyshawn Taylor), but it left only one scholarship to fill because we were oversigned.  Buzz quickly signed Butler to fill that one scholarship.

After he was hired, he chose to cut Christopherson loose and filled that scholarship with McMorrow.

By July 1, 2008 Buzz had a completely filled roster of 13 players under scholarship.

[bilsu]

The notion that it was bare was based on what was left after the amigos graduated.

[WarriorFan]

And we must give Mike Deane credit for playing piano better than any of them.

[4everwarriors]

Dukiet was better

[leever]

I'm right here.  Vacation doesn't start for a few more days.

1,951 days ago he left, 2,809,440 minutes ago.    Pretty amazing the constant need to keep comparing against him.  I guess he made an impact as I don't see anyone comparing him to Majerus, or O'Neill, or Deane, etc.  

I didn't notice that Majerus, O'Neill or Deane were on Goodman's list.  Perhaps that's why the comparison was between Buzz and Crean who were back-to-back on this particular list?

[muwarrior69]

I think both Buzz and Tom are doing quite well recruiting though I do think Buzz's efforts at MU are better than Tom's while he was at MU.

[Jay Bee]

Every coach taking a new job should consider himself extremely lucky to inherit a cupboard this "bare":

Srs:
1. Burke
2. Matthews
3. McNeal
4. James

Jrs.
5. Cubillan
6. Acker
7. Hayward

Sophs.
8 Christopherson
9. Mbakwe
10. Hazel
11. Fulce

Fr.
12. Otule
 
The notion of the "bare cupboard" is one of the enduring myths of Buzz's tenure. 

The fact of the matter is that the two players that left (Nick Wlliams and Tyshawn Taylor), but it left only one scholarship to fill because we were oversigned.  Buzz quickly signed Butler to fill that one scholarship.

After he was hired, he chose to cut Christopherson loose and filled that scholarship with McMorrow.

By July 1, 2008 Buzz had a completely filled roster of 13 players under scholarship.

First, you've got some facts wrong. Second, in the post you're replying to the guy was talking about year 2 and 3, not year 1.

[The Equalizer]

First, you've got some facts wrong.

You're right.  I forgot to include the verbal from Erik Williams who he also inherited.

Second, in the post you're replying to the guy was talking about year 2 and 3, not year 1.

Well his point seems to be that Buzz inherited a team without any frosh sophs or juniors and that he had to recruit nearly all 13 players just to field a team in his 2nd year.  That simply wasn't the case.

[ATL MU Warrior]

You're right.  I forgot to include the verbal from Erik Williams who he also inherited.

Well his point seems to be that Buzz inherited a team without any frosh sophs or juniors and that he had to recruit nearly all 13 players just to field a team in his 2nd year.  That simply wasn't the case.

You are a very literal fellow. 

[NersEllenson]

What matters more than anything is NCAA tournament wins.  I believe Buzz has 8 in 5 years, which I think* exceeds Tom Crean's combined total in 13 years as a head coach - not to mention Crean upgraded his job and recruiting situation to a blue blood elite school in Indiana.

Last thought, MU NEVER had teams as deep under Crean as Buzz has assembled - speaks to recruiting prowess.  Crean couldn't sell Top 100 kids to come to MU when there wasn't a clear path to immediate playing time available.  A lot harder to sell a kid to come to a school in this day and age of immediate gratification when there isn't a clear cut path to immediate PT.

This isn't a diss on Crean, simply a factual comparison between the two and their performance as MU head coaches/Head Coaches overall.

[wadesworld]

What matters more than anything is NCAA tournament wins.  I believe Buzz has 8 in 5 years, which I think* exceeds Tom Crean's combined total in 13 years as a head coach - not to mention Crean upgraded his job and recruiting situation to a blue blood elite school in Indiana.

Last thought, MU NEVER had teams as deep under Crean as Buzz has assembled - speaks to recruiting prowess.  Crean couldn't sell Top 100 kids to come to MU when there wasn't a clear path to immediate playing time available.  A lot harder to sell a kid to come to a school in this day and age of immediate gratification when there isn't a clear cut path to immediate PT.

This isn't a diss on Crean, simply a factual comparison between the two and their performance as MU head coaches/Head Coaches overall.

I don't disagree with you at all, but there is very little factual about this.  The NCAA Tournament wins may be factual (if they are the correct number of wins), but that doesn't necessarily means one is better than the other at recruiting (could mean they coach their team up, could mean they had better draws, etc.).

Indiana may historically be a better program and easier to recruit at, but when is the last time Indiana has been better than Marquette?  About 10 years ago?  Marquette has the most recent Final Four team, and they also have maybe the most marketable NBA superstar of any college right now (Melo had more success at Syracuse, but Melo is not on prime time television as much as Wade is, and you rarely hear Melo being mentioned with Syracuse, whereas Wade is constantly being mentioned with Marquette).  Indiana?  They have no marketable superstars.

And there could be a whole bunch of reasons why Crean couldn't recruit top 100 kids when no playing time was available.  Maybe Crean went after players who fit his system while Buzz goes after best available player?  Maybe Crean's team were deeper at certain positions, while Buzz's are deeper at others?  Etc. etc.

I'm just playing devil's advocate and pointing out that in reality you didn't bring very many relevant facts, if any, into the equation.  Most are (correct) opinions.

[Aughnanure]

I don't disagree with you at all, but there is very little factual about this.  The NCAA Tournament wins may be factual (if they are the correct number of wins), but that doesn't necessarily means one is better than the other at recruiting (could mean they coach their team up, could mean they had better draws, etc.).

Indiana may historically be a better program and easier to recruit at, but when is the last time Indiana has been better than Marquette?  About 10 years ago?  Marquette has the most recent Final Four team, and they also have maybe the most marketable NBA superstar of any college right now (Melo had more success at Syracuse, but Melo is not on prime time television as much as Wade is, and you rarely hear Melo being mentioned with Syracuse, whereas Wade is constantly being mentioned with Marquette).  Indiana?  They have no marketable superstars.

And there could be a whole bunch of reasons why Crean couldn't recruit top 100 kids when no playing time was available.  Maybe Crean went after players who fit his system while Buzz goes after best available player?  Maybe Crean's team were deeper at certain positions, while Buzz's are deeper at others?  Etc. etc.

I'm just playing devil's advocate and pointing out that in reality you didn't bring very many relevant facts, if any, into the equation.  Most are (correct) opinions.

Crean is 9-7
Buzz is 8-5

[Lennys Tap]

Crean is 9-7
Buzz is 8-5

Apples to apples, TC was 5-5 in 9 years at Marquette. Buzz is 8-5 in 5 years.

[Lennys Tap]

Indiana may historically be a better program and easier to recruit at, but when is the last time Indiana has been better than Marquette? 

Amazing trivia fact: the guy who preceded Crean at Indiana has the highest career winning % ever at IU (.741 to Knight's .735).

[The Lens]

Apples to apples, TC was 5-5 in 9 years at Marquette. Buzz is 8-5 in 5 years.

Let's agree that TC was 5-5 in 7 years.  I won't hold 2000 & 2001 against him, he was asked to ramp up to become a NCAA team...which he did. 

[Lennys Tap]

Let's agree that TC was 5-5 in 7 years.  I won't hold 2000 & 2001 against him, he was asked to ramp up to become a NCAA team...which he did. 

Agreed, and Buzz is really 7-4 in 3 years with his own players.

[Atticus]

Indiana may historically be a better program and easier to recruit at, but when is the last time Indiana has been better than Marquette?  About 10 years ago?  Marquette has the most recent Final Four team, and they also have maybe the most marketable NBA superstar of any college right now (Melo had more success at Syracuse, but Melo is not on prime time television as much as Wade is, and you rarely hear Melo being mentioned with Syracuse, whereas Wade is constantly being mentioned with Marquette).  Indiana?  They have no marketable superstars.

In terms of jersey sales (marketability), Wade is behind Durant, Melo, Rose, and Deron Williams (excluding players that did not attend college).

[ChicosBailBonds]

Apples to apples, TC was 5-5 in 9 years at Marquette. Buzz is 8-5 in 5 years.

Not exactly apples to apples, in fact not close.  Were the opponents the same, the venues the same, injuries (McNeal out, James out with Buzz), etc.  It's never the same, the squads are never the same.  For example, TC's first NCAA appearance was with a team that had never been to the NCAAs.  Buzz's first NCAA appearance, all of the core guys had been their 3 times. 

For that matter, TC has a Final Four, Buzz doesn't.  Buzz has three appearances with at least a Sweet 16, TC only one.  Many ways to look at it.

I know folks like to make comparisons as if they are that black and white, but they aren't. Every scenario different, it's a crapshoot.

I'm just glad MU has been blessed to have the coaching talent we have over the years.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

What matters more than anything is NCAA tournament wins.  I believe Buzz has 8 in 5 years, which I think* exceeds Tom Crean's combined total in 13 years as a head coach - not to mention Crean upgraded his job and recruiting situation to a blue blood elite school in Indiana.

Last thought, MU NEVER had teams as deep under Crean as Buzz has assembled - speaks to recruiting prowess.  Crean couldn't sell Top 100 kids to come to MU when there wasn't a clear path to immediate playing time available.  A lot harder to sell a kid to come to a school in this day and age of immediate gratification when there isn't a clear cut path to immediate PT.

This isn't a diss on Crean, simply a factual comparison between the two and their performance as MU head coaches/Head Coaches overall.

One thing that you are forgetting is the level of program Marquette was when each coach started. Crean inherited a program that was coming off a losing season. Not just a bad season, but a season where we actually had more losses than victories. It was also a team that had made it past the first weekend of the tournament ONCE in the past 22 years. We were also in a mediocre conference at best. Buzz inherited a program built by Crean. It was a contender, in a great conference, and had a recent Final Four and Dwayne Wade to bank on.

I would say it is clear that Buzz is a better coach than Crean. He has done more with less. But recruiter? I don't know about that. Crean's classes have all been ranked higher and he did it at a program that had been destroyed by NCAA violations. Buzz is getting to his level, but I don't think he's there yet.

Once again, I feel the need to reiterate, Buzz is the better coach, I just don't know if he's the better recruiter. (I feel the need to repeat myself because it seems like any sort of Crean support is met with fiery vengeance on this board)

[swoopem]

Analytical Eagle you do realize that an outside source (Jeff Goodman) who actually knows what he is talking about came up with these rankings right? I think it's pretty clear that Buzz is better

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Analytical Eagle you do realize that an outside source (Jeff Goodman) who actually knows what he is talking about came up with these rankings right? I think it's pretty clear that Buzz is better

I wasn't aware that Jeff Goodman was the god of all that is college basketball and that his opinion is law. Yes he knows way more than I do. But there are many others who know just as much as him who would disagree with him.