I don't have a rooting interest so I'm watching the game dispassionately.
I hated the fourth quarter and OT. Everyone was getting mugged and nothing was called, both ways. Whoever decided not calling fouls when the game is on the line needs to rethink this. It just makes for bad and ugly basketball.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on June 18, 2013, 11:19:53 PM
I don't have a rooting interest so I'm watching the game dispassionately.
I hated the fourth quarter and OT. Everyone was getting mugged and nothing was called, both ways. Whoever decided not calling fouls when the game is on the line needs to rethink this. It just makes for bad and ugly basketball.
I've got no real issue with referees swallowing the whistle in the end of games. Let the players decide... it has to be that way on both sides though. I didn't think this was the best officiated game, but it made for one of the most entertaining games NBA games I've ever seen.
Quote from: flash on June 18, 2013, 11:34:46 PM
I've got no real issue with referees swallowing the whistle in the end of games. Let the players decide... it has to be that way on both sides though. I didn't think this was the best officiated game, but it made for one of the most entertaining games NBA games I've ever seen.
Yeah, and it also allowed the Heat / Allstar team to win. I thought the game was officiated FAIR, but you can't say they should swallow their whistles on Ginobili's last drive.
Quote from: buzzchiapet on June 18, 2013, 11:43:46 PM
Yeah, and it also allowed the Heat / Allstar team to win. I thought the game was officiated FAIR, but you can't say they should swallow their whistles on Ginobili's last drive.
Goes both ways, Lebron was fouled going to the hoop by Green...instead that blown call gives the ball over to the Spurs. Can't believe I actually watched 8 minutes of NBA basketball tonight.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 18, 2013, 11:47:32 PM
Goes both ways, Lebron was fouled going to the hoop by Green...instead that blown call gives the ball over to the Spurs. Can't believe I actually watched 8 minutes of NBA basketball tonight.
Couldn't disagree more. LeBron first pushed Green back with his left forearm, then elbowed him, and then Green stripped LeBron clean. Cannot for the life of me believe that LeBron was complaining about that call. It's unreal.
As far as the Ginobili foul, I think it's a good no call. Those 2 could have a competition for best flopped in any sport.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 18, 2013, 11:51:17 PM
Couldn't disagree more. LeBron first pushed Green back with his left forearm, then elbowed him, and then Green stripped LeBron clean. Cannot for the life of me believe that LeBron was complaining about that call. It's unreal.
As far as the Ginobili foul, I think it's a good no call. Those 2 could have a competition for best flopped in any sport.
In my view, LeBron is the aggressor and Green got into him long before LeBron pushed. The whole time Green was backtracking with his feet, usually that is called on the defensive player. Green got some ball, also got him on the arm, etc.
As for Ginobli, after watching him take 4 to 5 steps and then complain about the non-foul I was quickly jolted into remembering why the NBA game is just not that fun to watch for me...yet tonight's game (the few minutes I watched) were actually a lot of fun, but it's the obscene way in which some of the rules are just so totally ignored that brings it down for me.
Quote from: buzzchiapet on June 18, 2013, 11:43:46 PM
Yeah, and it also allowed the Heat / Allstar team to win. I thought the game was officiated FAIR, but you can't say they should swallow their whistles on Ginobili's last drive.
Did you also note that Ginobili took 3-steps. So if a whistle was blown I'd go with the travel.
I actually did think the game was relatively poorly officiated on the individual basis. 3 or 4 of Wade's drives he was hammered and no call, meanwhile Lebron often got phantom calls (compared to other calls they let go)...other calls all the way around were just ignored.
As a whole though I think the missed calls were balanced across both teams and the refs did a good job of keeping everything even.
Bottom line...Great game to watch.
Quote from: forgetful on June 19, 2013, 01:06:36 AM
As a whole though I think the missed calls were balanced across both teams and the refs did a good job of keeping everything even.
Bottom line...Great game to watch.
+1. Awesome game!
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on June 19, 2013, 05:54:53 AM
+1. Awesome game!
Drive, hack miss
Drive, hack miss
Drive, travel miss
Why was this a good game to watch? Because everyone was mugged on every play and could not make a basket so the score stayed close?
It was the worst of the NBA and a showcase of why the sport cannot return to its
Jordan era popularity.
Quote from: flash on June 18, 2013, 11:34:46 PM
I've got no real issue with referees swallowing the whistle in the end of games. Let the players decide... it has to be that way on both sides though. I didn't think this was the best officiated game, but it made for one of the most entertaining games NBA games I've ever seen.
I never understood the "let the players decide it" argument when officials swallow the whistle and it potentially affects the outcome. Ginobili was clearly fouled on a potential championship-winning drive to the basket but there was no call. In what way was that letting the players decide it?
funny reading the wide range of opinions about the game from great game to the NBA sucks
for the record I thought Green made a great defensive play and ginobli took steps (but what's new?)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 18, 2013, 11:47:32 PM
Goes both ways, Lebron was fouled going to the hoop by Green...instead that blown call gives the ball over to the Spurs. Can't believe I actually watched 8 minutes of NBA basketball tonight.
wrong, look at it again.
I like the NBA, but the no call on manu and on the 3 at the buzzer (holy s... he landed in his lap) made me question why I watched that game at all. Totally killed the excitement for me, kind of feel cheated (Lakers fan, so I don't like either team, and I know they miss calls all the time and they don't call travelling... ever... but clearly not making calls on purpose at the end of the game) I just don't care about game 7 anymore.
I went to bed with about a minute left, with the Heat down, and looking like they had ZERO chance to pull this one out. Damn.
I blame this on Legs. He was not there to remind me that this was doable.
Quote from: LAMUfan on June 19, 2013, 07:33:15 AM
I like the NBA, but the no call on manu and on the 3 at the buzzer (holy s... he landed in his lap) made me question why I watched that game at all. Totally killed the excitement for me, kind of feel cheated (Lakers fan, so I don't like either team, and I know they miss calls all the time and they don't call travelling... ever... but clearly not making calls on purpose at the end of the game) I just don't care about game 7 anymore.
I feel the same way. I'm expecting the Heat to win in a route.
No talk of the Allen stepback 3 with time running out to send it to OT? That was fracking insane.
The reffing wasn't the greatest, but college refs are just as bad, if not worse. I don't understand why college fans hate the NBA playoffs when you got the best players in the world playing their hardest. The defense and team offense the Spurs have put together has just been beautiful. The amount of talent on both ends are just incredible. There's 8 guys on each team that could take over a game.
LeBron has to be the hardest player to ref since Shaq. He is just so much more athletic that it is hard to tell if he's using his weight too much or just that the other players can't physically hold up to him.
Except for Wade and LeBron, who whine too much, the court is full of some of the hardest working and classiest players you'll find. I could watch Tim Duncan and Ray Allen all day.
I actually thought the officiating was reasonable. One must understand that what is considered acceptable in the NBA isn't the same in college and most of us here are primarily college basketball fans.
And props to Ray Allen. That was one helluva shot.
Quote from: jsglow on June 19, 2013, 09:15:42 AM
I actually thought the officiating was reasonable. One must understand that what is considered acceptable in the NBA isn't the same in college and most of us here are primarily college basketball fans.
This.
That was basically the end of any NBA playoff game. That is how it's has been for years....including the Jordan era.
The story isn't the refs. The story is how an experienced team with an experienced coach absolutely choked that game away. Honestly, Tim Duncan needs to be on the floor in both of those 3 point situations. How could you *not* have one of the best players in the league's history on the floor there?
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on June 19, 2013, 06:06:07 AM
It was the worst of the NBA and a showcase of why the sport cannot return to its
Jordan era popularity.
*That* was the worst of the NBA? Honestly if you believe that, you simply aren't an NBA fan. That was an incredibly intense game. That may have been one of the best NBA finals games I have ever seen.
And do you honestly think the refs would have called that any differently during the Jordan era? If not, you have way too rosy a view about the history of NBA refereeing.
Quote from: buzzchiapet on June 18, 2013, 11:43:46 PM
Yeah, and it also allowed the Heat / Allstar team to win. I thought the game was officiated FAIR, but you can't say they should swallow their whistles on Ginobili's last drive.
It's funny how people who only want to complain about the Heat never seem to acknowledge the Spurs are fielding three
Hall-of-Famers and currently employ a forgettable role player who is putting on the best shooting performance in the history of the Association. All-Stars reside in South Texas too.
Quote from: Golden Avalanche on June 19, 2013, 09:31:37 AM
It's funny how people who only want to complain about the Heat never seem to acknowledge the Spurs are fielding three
Hall-of-Famers and currently employ a forgettable role player who is putting on the best shooting performance in the history of the Association. All-Stars reside in South Texas too.
Not to mention that Ginobili traveled....and the incredibly bogus offensive foul called on Lebron late in the fourth quarter.
Quote from: Terror Skink on June 19, 2013, 09:30:06 AM
And do you honestly think the refs would have called that any differently during the Jordan era? If not, you have way too rosy a view about the history of NBA refereeing.
This is right. I don't watch much NBA, other than playoffs, but the officials made it clear they weren't going to call anything and the players responded accordingly with their aggressiveness. Most of the calls being discussed would have been called in a regular season game, but to their credit they treated them all the same. Hell, Duncan cleared out Bosh at one point, and put him on the ground, and there was no call. They let it get physical, so the players just got more physical, and at that point the skunk was out of the box and there wasn't anything the refs were going to be able to do about it. It was a great game to watch.
Quote from: Terror Skink on June 19, 2013, 09:28:02 AM
The story isn't the refs. The story is how an experienced team with an experienced coach absolutely choked that game away. Honestly, Tim Duncan needs to be on the floor in both of those 3 point situations. How could you *not* have one of the best players in the league's history on the floor there?
Agree and disagree. He should have been out there on the Allen shot, but I can't say they choked it away. leBron just friggin took over that game in the 4th quarter and almost single handedly got the Heat back in it.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on June 19, 2013, 09:43:07 AM
Agree and disagree. He should have been out there on the Allen shot, but I can't say they choked it away. leBron just friggin took over that game in the 4th quarter and almost single handedly got the Heat back in it.
Choke is a strong word I know...but I am including Popovich in that because I think that was a terrible coaching decision.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 18, 2013, 11:51:17 PM
Couldn't disagree more. LeBron first pushed Green back with his left forearm, then elbowed him, and then Green stripped LeBron clean. Cannot for the life of me believe that LeBron was complaining about that call. It's unreal.
+1. Have to be drinking massive doses of Heat kool aid to think that was a foul on Green. LeBron shouldered Green, Green got all ball, LeBron lost the ball off himself. Obvious to everyone on the replay including the announcers.
Gionbilli late drive was a foul on Allen, but IMO it came after a travel.
Quote from: Terror Skink on June 19, 2013, 09:35:18 AM
Not to mention that Ginobili traveled....and the incredibly bogus offensive foul called on Lebron late in the fourth quarter.
Parker does some amazing things. Gets into places you don't think are humanly possible. He hit two shots at the end of regulation that would have been legendary.
But his flair for the dramatic with regard to exaggeration of contact is more off putting to me than guys who plead to the officials for a foul call. It's clear deception that's a level above the normal embellishment that occurs across the entire league.
I don't necessarily agree, but his is kinda funny...
http://youtu.be/dbHyUHNw5o4 (http://youtu.be/dbHyUHNw5o4)
Also for the record, Wade was a train wreck last night.
Quote from: Terror Skink on June 19, 2013, 09:28:02 AM
The story isn't the refs. The story is how an experienced team with an experienced coach absolutely choked that game away. Honestly, Tim Duncan needs to be on the floor in both of those 3 point situations. How could you *not* have one of the best players in the league's history on the floor there?
+1
Also, if the Spurs make their free throws they are champions today. The refs had zero to do with that.
The worst call of the game hasn't been brought up yet...
It was Joey Crawford ripping the ball from Duncan's hands with 5 seconds left after the Allen 3. Neither team had a timeout and Duncan was trying to inbound. It would have been plenty of time for coast-coast or a foul called on way to the rim. The Heat weren't setup or ready in the least for that inbound.
Crawford wasn't the official near Allen's 3, and it wasn't even close to being a 2. The look Crawford gave Duncan when he wrestled the ball away was, "you know this isn't fair, give them a chance to reset." He would have been correct except you don't have that right when you don't have a timeout. In the NBA playoffs, this situation rarely occurs (no endgame time-outs), so Crawford wasn't in his comfort zone.
Anyone saying the Spurs used that extra "timeout" are completely misguided... That's why Popovich was furious when this happened. A Spurs inbounds against an unready Heat D is far more valuable than a Spurs set-play vs a ready Heat D.
Quote from: wardle2wade on June 19, 2013, 11:27:09 AM
The worst call of the game hasn't been brought up yet...
It was Joey Crawford ripping the ball from Duncan's hands with 5 seconds left after the Allen 3. Neither team had a timeout and Duncan was trying to inbound. It would have been plenty of time for coast-coast or a foul called on way to the rim. The Heat weren't setup or ready in the least for that inbound.
Crawford wasn't the official near Allen's 3, and it wasn't even close to being a 2. The look Crawford gave Duncan when he wrestled the ball away was, "you know this isn't fair, give them a chance to reset." He would have been correct except you don't have that right when you don't have a timeout. In the NBA playoffs, this situation rarely occurs (no endgame time-outs), so Crawford wasn't in his comfort zone.
Anyone saying the Spurs used that extra "timeout" are completely misguided... That's why Popovich was furious when this happened. A Spurs inbounds against an unready Heat D is far more valuable than a Spurs set-play vs a ready Heat D.
Because Crawford knew they were going to review the Allen three point shot immediately. I really didn't see anything wrong with that.
Yeah. It was a liability of the system. You can't have it 100% correct and still not interrupt the game. Spurs got screwed due to the situation but you can't blame Crawford for reviewing that.
Quote from: Terror Skink on June 19, 2013, 11:35:20 AM
Because Crawford knew they were going to review the Allen three point shot immediately. I really didn't see anything wrong with that.
Maybe my beef is with the NBA then. I didn't realize they had to review every 3 at the end of a game. I assumed an official had to trigger the second look. In the replay, you see the official looking right at Ray's feet and it wasn't close... I guess he didn't have the confidence in himself to stick with his first call. In doing so, he legitimately may have cost the Spurs a championship.
Quote from: martyconlonontherun on June 19, 2013, 11:43:59 AM
Yeah. It was a liability of the system. You can't have it 100% correct and still not interrupt the game. Spurs got screwed due to the situation but you can't blame Crawford for reviewing that.
Even though it's NBA protocol, there still is subjectivity in that. The official still has to say, "we want to look at that again." This wasn't a close call.
Quote from: wardle2wade on June 19, 2013, 11:27:09 AM
The look Crawford gave Duncan when he wrestled the ball away was, "you know this isn't fair, give them a chance to reset."
Please tell me your joking with this.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on June 19, 2013, 11:47:29 AM
Please tell me your joking with this.
He must be because Duncan wasn't even in the game. In fact, the Spurs were also apparently the beneficiary of an illegal substitution when they brought Duncan in during the review of the FT.
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/6/19/4445280/nba-finals-2013-tim-duncan-illegal-play-spurs-heat
Quote from: wardle2wade on June 19, 2013, 11:45:27 AM
Even though it's NBA protocol, there still is subjectivity in that. The official still has to say, "we want to look at that again." This wasn't a close call.
They played it safe. I really have no problem with that. If you are going to have the review rule, you pretty much have to use it there.
As incredible as this game was, I can say with confidence that we'd all agree that it was, at best, only the second best comeback of this basketball season.
http://deadspin.com/heres-how-marquette-erased-a-six-point-davidson-lead-i-458283539
Quote from: Terror Skink on June 19, 2013, 09:30:06 AM
*That* was the worst of the NBA? Honestly if you believe that, you simply aren't an NBA fan. That was an incredibly intense game. That may have been one of the best NBA finals games I have ever seen.
+1000000000000
Amazing game. The officiating was perfect - both teams were allowed to play physical, with no advantage given one way or another...lots of no calls both ways. Mike Miller basically got punched in the face on a wipe away for Leonard to dunk...no call...and even the retired official Steve Jave said as much....yet in a regular season game....100% of time Miller would get that call. Ridiculous to even enter officiating into the discussion on what was an amazing basketball game. These guys are the best in the world absolutely going at each other possession after possession...can't wait for Game 7.
Quote from: Ners on June 19, 2013, 12:07:14 PM
+1000000000000
Amazing game. The officiating was perfect - both teams were allowed to play physical, with no advantage given one way or another...lots of no calls both ways. Mike Miller basically got punched in the face on a wipe away for Leonard to dunk...no call...and even the retired official Steve Jave said as much....yet in a regular season game....100% of time Miller would get that call. Ridiculous to even enter officiating into the discussion on what was an amazing basketball game. These guys are the best in the world absolutely going at each other possession after possession...can't wait for Game 7.
Dead on. Welcome back,Ners.
Quote from: Ners on June 19, 2013, 12:07:14 PM
+1000000000000
Amazing game. The officiating was perfect - both teams were allowed to play physical, with no advantage given one way or another...lots of no calls both ways. Mike Miller basically got punched in the face on a wipe away for Leonard to dunk...no call...and even the retired official Steve Jave said as much....yet in a regular season game....100% of time Miller would get that call. Ridiculous to even enter officiating into the discussion on what was an amazing basketball game. These guys are the best in the world absolutely going at each other possession after possession...can't wait for Game 7.
I don't think I've ever seen a foul called on the offensive player in that situation.
The Spurs couldn't take advantage of the opportunities they were given but also had a couple opportunities taken away from them, primarily the no-call on Ginobili's drive to the basket with about 5 seconds to play. Bosh also clearly fouled Green on the potential tying 3, but that's a call that is almost* never made late in any game.
* - Where was Hue Hollins when the Spurs needed him?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 19, 2013, 01:30:03 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a foul called on the offensive player in that situation.
The Spurs couldn't take advantage of the opportunities they were given but also had a couple opportunities taken away from them, primarily the no-call on Ginobili's drive to the basket with about 5 seconds to play. Bosh also clearly fouled Green on the potential tying 3, but that's a call that is almost* never made late in any game.
* - Where was Hue Hollins when the Spurs needed him?
Really - Never seen an offensive player whistled for using their off arm to create space/wipe away at the rim and not get called for it? Happens quite a bit actually...if it didn't, why wouldn't every offensive player just elevate and shove the defender with their off arm every time?!
Quote from: Terror Skink on June 19, 2013, 11:52:26 AM
He must be because Duncan wasn't even in the game. In fact, the Spurs were also apparently the beneficiary of an illegal substitution when they brought Duncan in during the review of the FT.
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/6/19/4445280/nba-finals-2013-tim-duncan-illegal-play-spurs-heat
Sorry, my memory is blending together... I haven't watched the play since it happened, but I thought it was Duncan. It wasn't, but my read on how Crawford reacted still stands. He should have let that ball inbounds.
Quote from: wardle2wade on June 19, 2013, 01:37:07 PM
Sorry, my memory is blending together... I haven't watched the play since it happened, but I thought it was Duncan. It wasn't, but my read on how Crawford reacted still stands. He should have let that ball inbounds.
Here is the rule:
http://www.nba.com/2008/news/10/23/102108videoreplayrules/
"Replay review for 2-point/3-point field goals and shooting fouls would be triggered at the discretion of the game officials, and would be based on a conclusion by the crew that they cannot be reasonably certain whether the shot was a 2-point or 3-point field goal.
...
Following the third full timeout of the fourth period and during any overtime period(s), any review of a 2-point/3-point must be conducted at the next clock stoppage--including immediately upon a made basket when the clock stops in the final two minutes of a game. For this purpose, "immediately" means prior to the ball being touched inbounds on the play following the successful shot."
So I'm not exactly sure what you are raving about. The game officials felt it warranted a review, and they reviewed it when they should have.
Quote from: Ners on June 19, 2013, 01:36:34 PM
Really - Never seen an offensive player whistled for using their off arm to create space/wipe away at the rim and not get called for it? Happens quite a bit actually...if it didn't, why wouldn't every offensive player just elevate and shove the defender with their off arm every time?!
No, I don't ever recall seeing a player ferociously dunk on someone and get called for pushing off.
This is just my personal opinion, but I feel as though the refs are there to enforce the rules. If a rule is violated, the refs, by nature of their job/responsibility, must/should blow the whistle. And it shouldn't matter AT ALL when it happens in the game. If it's a foul in the first 2 minutes, it's a foul in the last 2 minutes. "Let the players decide it"? The players make a decision when they decide to foul. If you don't want calls at the end of games, pull the refs off the floor for the last two minutes. It's absolutely insane to me that refs shouldn't be calling fouls at the end of games.
Lebron absolutely committed the foul on Green.
Parker flopped on Lebron's offensive foul.
I thought Spurs should have fouled when they were up 3. Then I definitely thought they should have fouled Bosh on the offensive rebound before Allen's 3. Of course, I also thought Duncan should have been in the game when they were up 6 and up 3.
None of this matters if Ginobli, Parker and Leonard don't all go 1-2 from the line at the end of regulation.
But seriously, refs should blow the whistle no matter the game situation. That's their job.
Quote from: hairyworthen on June 19, 2013, 07:31:32 AM
wrong, look at it again.
I have, many times. In my view, he was fouled. In the views of many others they agree. In the views of many others, they disagree. Is what it is, people see different things. Just as some people say Ginobli didn't travel, he sure did in my eyes. Different interpretations for different people.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 19, 2013, 02:59:12 PM
I have, many times. In my view, he was fouled. In the views of many others they agree. In the views of many others, they disagree. Is what it is, people see different things. Just as some people say Ginobli didn't travel, he sure did in my eyes. Different interpretations for different people.
Like who?
Quote from: martyconlonontherun on June 19, 2013, 09:14:17 AM
Except for Wade and LeBron, who whine too much, the court is full of some of the hardest working and classiest players you'll find. I could watch Tim Duncan and Ray Allen all day.
How can you possibly criticize Wade and Lebron for whining, then praise Duncan's class in the next sentence? Have you watched the NBA for the last decade? Duncan is one of the biggest whiners in the game. He puts his hands up and makes a ridiculous "who me?" face after virtually every call against him. He has certainly whined about calls more than Wade in this series.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 19, 2013, 09:51:37 AM
+1. Have to be drinking massive doses of Heat kool aid to think that was a foul on Green. LeBron shouldered Green, Green got all ball, LeBron lost the ball off himself. Obvious to everyone on the replay including the announcers.
Gionbilli late drive was a foul on Allen, but IMO it came after a travel.
LOL. He didn't get all ball....all ball means all ball, not part of the arm and hand (replay clearly shows), let alone the hip check by Green and sliding into him while he was driving which is a blocking foul. Did Lebron push off with his arm...yes...AFTER the hip check by Green and AFTER he slid into Lebron's path to the basket. Sequence of events matter.
I love the fawning by the announcers, but please. If that play happens at any other time during the game it is a blocking foul.
http://www.youtube.com/v/kgAbo6IJB_A
Quote from: Ners on June 19, 2013, 12:07:14 PM
+1000000000000
Amazing game. The officiating was perfect - both teams were allowed to play physical, with no advantage given one way or another...lots of no calls both ways. Mike Miller basically got punched in the face on a wipe away for Leonard to dunk...no call...and even the retired official Steve Jave said as much....yet in a regular season game....100% of time Miller would get that call. Ridiculous to even enter officiating into the discussion on what was an amazing basketball game. These guys are the best in the world absolutely going at each other possession after possession...can't wait for Game 7.
You guys are like the 1980s hockey fans that demanded fighting, and almost destroyed the sport in process.
The end of Q4 and OT (not earlier in the game),
when the refs arbitrarily changed the rules, was not fun to watch. It was a brutal physical low scoring, constant muggings with a ton of missed shots basketball.
In five minutes of overtime, in a league with a 24 second shot clock, the Heat outscored the Spurs 8 to 5 (http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/scoreboard?date=20130618). That is your definition of "amazing basketball?" I could have played last night, I can tackle a guy trying to shoot and make him miss.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on June 19, 2013, 04:32:35 PM
You guys are like the 1980s hockey fans that demanded fighting, and almost destroyed the sport in process.
The end of Q4 and OT (not earlier in the game), when the refs arbitrarily changed the rules, was not fun to watch. It was a brutal physical low scoring, constant muggings with a ton of missed shots basketball. In five minutes of overtime, in a league with a 24 second shot clock, the Heat outscored the Spurs 8 to 5 (http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/scoreboard?date=20130618). That is your definition of "amazing basketball?" I could have played last night, I can tackle a guy trying to shoot and make him miss.
Dude - it is the 2 best defensive basketball teams in the world, playing an overtime after a physically excruciating 48 minutes...basketball is a physical game..and gets only more physical every level you go up, and now to the top of the pyramid in Game 6 of the NBA Finals - to point to an 8-5 score in a 5 minute overtime is not evidence of a brutal, physical, low scoring, constant muggings ugly basketball game. Hell there are many MU games where the score is 8-5 at the 16:00 minute time out mark in the 1st half.
Refs are damned if they do, damned if they don't - call tick tack fouls, people complain, let them play people complain. I'd much rather refs error on swallowing the whistle than watch the truly ugliest of games: those that lead to a procession of free throw attempts!! How boring is it to watch the best athletes in the world shoot 40 FT's per game, per team? Keep the action moving..thats what makes basketball fun..
Quote from: MUSF on June 19, 2013, 03:17:40 PM
How can you possibly criticize Wade and Lebron for whining, then praise Duncan's class in the next sentence? Have you watched the NBA for the last decade? Duncan is one of the biggest whiners in the game. He puts his hands up and makes a ridiculous "who me?" face after virtually every call against him. He has certainly whined about calls more than Wade in this series.
Fair. I'm a little odd cause I loved how Sam cassell worked the refs.
The problem with LBJ and Wade was they hurt their team. On back to back plays they stayed backed and whined to the refs about not getting a foul. The first allowed allowed a four on four for a easy drive for Parker. The very next play Wade stayed back and that allowed Neal to be guarded by Bosh for an easy layup. I'm ok, even love, the raw initial emotion of hating a call but it takes it to a new level where you refuse to continue on the game.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on June 19, 2013, 04:32:35 PM
You guys are like the 1980s hockey fans that demanded fighting, and almost destroyed the sport in process.
The end of Q4 and OT (not earlier in the game), when the refs arbitrarily changed the rules, was not fun to watch. It was a brutal physical low scoring, constant muggings with a ton of missed shots basketball. In five minutes of overtime, in a league with a 24 second shot clock, the Heat outscored the Spurs 8 to 5 (http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/scoreboard?date=20130618). That is your definition of "amazing basketball?" I could have played last night, I can tackle a guy trying to shoot and make him miss.
The overtime wasn't all that amazing. The fourth quarter may have been one of the best quarters in NBA playoff history.
And no one is arbitrarily changing the rules. This is the way NBA playoff games are called. Its the way they have been called for decades. If you don't like it, don't watch it.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 19, 2013, 04:23:44 PM
LOL. He didn't get all ball....all ball means all ball, not part of the arm and hand (replay clearly shows), let alone the hip check by Green and sliding into him while he was driving which is a blocking foul. Did Lebron push off with his arm...yes...AFTER the hip check by Green and AFTER he slid into Lebron's path to the basket. Sequence of events matter.
I love the fawning by the announcers, but please. If that play happens at any other time during the game it is a blocking foul.
http://www.youtube.com/v/kgAbo6IJB_A
During any other game, they call a foul on Green 9 times out of 10. Whether one thinks its a foul or not doesn't matter, lebron gets the benefit of the doubt 90% of the time.
I find it interesting how everyone faults the Spurs (choking) because of a few bad plays and the Lebron led them back.
They make 1 FT and everyone is talking about how Lebron choked away a win and a chance at a title.
He threw the ball into the stands 2 of the last possessions of regulation when they needed a bucked. He did the same thing earlier in the series.
Everyone always talks about how exciting it is to watch Lebron, I don't watch a lot of the NBA, but from what I've see he is a very boring player to watch. 40% of the time he dribbles the ball for about 12 seconds before jacking up a shot. 40% of the time he slowly backs a guy down for 3-6 seconds before taking a turnaround. 10% of the time he just stands there and does nothing as he feels like he is not part of the play. The other 10%, he is part of a nifty pass that he can throw down for a dunk. Contrast that with Jordan who was really an electric player.
Quote from: forgetful on June 19, 2013, 06:42:02 PM
I find it interesting how everyone faults the Spurs (choking) because of a few bad plays and the Lebron led them back.
They make 1 FT and everyone is talking about how Lebron choked away a win and a chance at a title.
He threw the ball into the stands 2 of the last possessions of regulation when they needed a bucked. He did the same thing earlier in the series.
Everyone always talks about how exciting it is to watch Lebron, I don't watch a lot of the NBA, but from what I've see he is a very boring player to watch. 40% of the time he dribbles the ball for about 12 seconds before jacking up a shot. 40% of the time he slowly backs a guy down for 3-6 seconds before taking a turnaround. 10% of the time he just stands there and does nothing as he feels like he is not part of the play. The other 10%, he is part of a nifty pass that he can throw down for a dunk. Contrast that with Jordan who was really an electric player.
For a guy who doesn't watch a lot of NBA, you certainly are an expert on Lebron's game.
Quote from: Terror Skink on June 19, 2013, 06:47:14 PM
For a guy who doesn't watch a lot of NBA, you certainly are an expert on Lebron's game.
I watch the playoffs only as in general I don't enjoy the NBA that much. I didn't say he wasn't a good player, just boring to watch. No need to get upset.
I've been very open about the fact that I don't like Lebron and some of it is completely misguided.
I also tend to focus on little things in basketball. Lebron is not good at the little things. For instance, he may be the worst setter of picks in the history of the NBA. He likes to have the ball in his hands. When he doesn't have the ball he is trying to figure out how to get it back. Great player yes....could he be even a hell of a lot better, I think so. Just my opinions.
Quote from: forgetful on June 19, 2013, 07:01:51 PM
I watch the playoffs only as in general I don't enjoy the NBA that much. I didn't say he wasn't a good player, just boring to watch. No need to get upset.
I've been very open about the fact that I don't like Lebron and some of it is completely misguided.
I also tend to focus on little things in basketball. Lebron is not good at the little things. For instance, he may be the worst setter of picks in the history of the NBA. He likes to have the ball in his hands. When he doesn't have the ball he is trying to figure out how to get it back. Great player yes....could he be even a hell of a lot better, I think so. Just my opinions.
I'm not upset. And again, you certainly are an expert on Lebron James.
Quote from: forgetful on June 19, 2013, 07:01:51 PM
I watch the playoffs only as in general I don't enjoy the NBA that much. I didn't say he wasn't a good player, just boring to watch. No need to get upset.
I've been very open about the fact that I don't like Lebron and some of it is completely misguided.
I also tend to focus on little things in basketball. Lebron is not good at the little things. For instance, he may be the worst setter of picks in the history of the NBA. He likes to have the ball in his hands. When he doesn't have the ball he is trying to figure out how to get it back. Great player yes....could he be even a hell of a lot better, I think so. Just my opinions.
Crazy talk.
Worst setter of picks in NBA history? Really? Did you watch game 2?
Quote from: forgetful on June 19, 2013, 07:01:51 PM
I watch the playoffs only as in general I don't enjoy the NBA that much. I didn't say he wasn't a good player, just boring to watch. No need to get upset.
I've been very open about the fact that I don't like Lebron and some of it is completely misguided.
I also tend to focus on little things in basketball. Lebron is not good at the little things. For instance, he may be the worst setter of picks in the history of the NBA. He likes to have the ball in his hands. When he doesn't have the ball he is trying to figure out how to get it back. Great player yes....could he be even a hell of a lot better, I think so. Just my opinions.
LeBron haters must be pretty desperate if they have resorted to criticizing the manner in which he sets screens.
Quote from: forgetful on June 19, 2013, 06:42:02 PM
I find it interesting how everyone faults the Spurs (choking) because of a few bad plays and the Lebron led them back.
They make 1 FT and everyone is talking about how Lebron choked away a win and a chance at a title.
He threw the ball into the stands 2 of the last possessions of regulation when they needed a bucked. He did the same thing earlier in the series.
Everyone always talks about how exciting it is to watch Lebron, I don't watch a lot of the NBA, but from what I've see he is a very boring player to watch. 40% of the time he dribbles the ball for about 12 seconds before jacking up a shot. 40% of the time he slowly backs a guy down for 3-6 seconds before taking a turnaround. 10% of the time he just stands there and does nothing as he feels like he is not part of the play. The other 10%, he is part of a nifty pass that he can throw down for a dunk. Contrast that with Jordan who was really an electric player.
I actually feel sorry for people that watch Lebron and can't appreciate that they are seeing something truly special and unique.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 19, 2013, 04:23:44 PM
LOL. He didn't get all ball....all ball means all ball, not part of the arm and hand
Wrong. When your hand is on the ball (as LeBron's most definitely was) it is part of the ball - so yes, all ball, like Van Gundy (who's impartial and has forgotten more about basketball than you'll ever know) pointed out.
You're amazing. You hate the NBA, never watch it, but you know more than the guys who get paid to broadcast it.
Quote from: MUSF on June 19, 2013, 08:16:01 PM
I actually feel sorry for people that watch Lebron and can't appreciate that they are seeing something truly special and unique.
It's mutual then, I actually feel sorry for people that watch Lebron and feel that he is the greatest. I like Rodman's comment that Lebron would have been average in Jordan's era (way overstatement), but Lebron is far from the greatest.
I believe he has the god given abilities to be the greatest ever, but he will never do it.
I actually would really enjoy watching a game with some of the Lebron cheerleaders so we could in a live scenario discuss his play.
Quote from: MUSF on June 19, 2013, 08:16:01 PM
I actually feel sorry for people that watch Lebron and can't appreciate that they are seeing something truly special and unique.
Also, would Jordan ever, in a single series, have two consecutive turnovers when the game was on the line. For that matter, would Robertson, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Cousy, Isaiah, Miller, Stockton...etc ever done the same?
Quote from: forgetful on June 19, 2013, 09:04:55 PM
It's mutual then, I actually feel sorry for people that watch Lebron and feel that he is the greatest. I like Rodman's comment that Lebron would have been average in Jordan's era (way overstatement), but Lebron is far from the greatest.
I believe he has the god given abilities to be the greatest ever, but he will never do it.
I actually would really enjoy watching a game with some of the Lebron cheerleaders so we could in a live scenario discuss his play.
I never said I think he is the greatest, and I really don't understand the need to start comparing him to MJ. There is a whole group of fans that can't seem to enjoy greatness in the NBA anymore because they are constantly concerned about the legacy of MJ.
Lebron is great. Jordan was great. Lebron can do a lot of things on the court Jordan could never do. Jordan did a lot of things that Lebron can't do. Ten years from now we may be able to have a legitimate debate about who was better. Until then, I'm going to enjoy watching Lebron do things that I have never seen before.
Quote from: forgetful on June 19, 2013, 09:09:38 PM
Also, would Jordan ever, in a single series, have two consecutive turnovers when the game was on the line. For that matter, would Robertson, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Cousy, Isaiah, Miller, Stockton...etc ever done the same?
Yes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezDDZFuo6zU
Quote from: MUSF on June 19, 2013, 09:16:59 PM
Yes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezDDZFuo6zU
I honestly meant to do that twice in a single playoff (but yes, kudos for finding that one), as he already did it once in the Indiana series. Jordan had a game like that once in his entire career, that is offset with numerous last second heroics.
Lebron doesn't have the same last second heroics and did it twice during one playoffs.
Quote from: forgetful on June 19, 2013, 09:34:56 PM
Jordan had a game like that once in his entire career, that is offset with numerous last second heroics.
Lebron doesn't have the same last second heroics and did it twice during one playoffs.
Whatever, James is never going to be good enough for the Jordanites.
I get it, Jordan is the greatest of all time. I'm not trying to argue otherwise. What drives me nuts is that many Jordan worshipers feel the need to dump on Lebron's game to win this "greatest of all time" argument that most Lebron fans aren't even attempting to engage in.
The second thing that drives me nuts is the false mythology that has developed over the past 10-15 years. Jordan was great, the greatest of all time, but he wasn't perfect. He had bad playoff games, he turned the ball over, he got shut down sometimes. Your last post is a perfect example of this.
Quote from: MUSF on June 19, 2013, 10:08:20 PM
Whatever, James is never going to be good enough for the Jordanites.
I get it, Jordan is the greatest of all time. I'm not trying to argue otherwise. What drives me nuts is that many Jordan worshipers feel the need to dump on Lebron's game to win this "greatest of all time" argument that most Lebron fans aren't even attempting to engage in.
The second thing that drives me nuts is the false mythology that has developed over the past 10-15 years. Jordan was great, the greatest of all time, but he wasn't perfect. He had bad playoff games, he turned the ball over, he got shut down sometimes. Your last post is a perfect example of this.
One game is not a big deal. I'm well aware that Jordan got shut down sometimes and had bad games. The difference is they were flukes. Lebron has had a tendency to not come up big in the end of games. Two turnovers down the stretch in game 1, bad, but fixable. Two in a game 6 with the series on the line...different. Lebron is one of the greats in the game today. In my opinion, he isn't in the top 10 ever...likely not in the top 20. But that is a tall order.
I honestly think the big difference is James as been crowned king since he was very young. He never had to fight for anything, all the 'real' greats did. James has to a large extent made due on sheer god given talent (he has a lot of it).
Now, I happen to think Jordan is the best ever, but a guy like Robertson, with todays training may be the best ever. Dude averaged a triple double...that will never be done again. Lebron averages a triple double I'll gladly crown him king.
Quote from: forgetful on June 19, 2013, 10:36:42 PM
Lebron has had a tendency to not come up big in the end of games. Two turnovers down the stretch in game 1, bad, but fixable. Two in a game 6 with the series on the line...different.
Lebron averages a triple double I'll gladly crown him king.
I'm not going to engage in the Jordan vs. Lebron debate because it's pointless. Besides, I have already agreed that Jordan is the greatest of all time.
If you honestly think Lebron didn't come up big at the end of game 6, then you are simply cherry picking the turnover stat to fit your agenda. Lebron's 4th Quarter in game 6 was huge.
I don't think anyone is asking you to "crown Lebron king". Where are you getting this idea that there is this mass movement to declare Lebron the greatest ever? I hear a lot of criticism thrown Lebron's way by fans and media. Everybody wants more.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 19, 2013, 09:01:39 PM
Wrong. When your hand is on the ball (as LeBron's most definitely was) it is part of the ball - so yes, all ball, like Van Gundy (who's impartial and has forgotten more about basketball than you'll ever know) pointed out.
You're amazing. You hate the NBA, never watch it, but you know more than the guys who get paid to broadcast it.
I'm quite aware the hand is part of the ball, the arm is not....as I stated. It was also a blocking foul, which 9 times out of 10 would be called at any other part of the game. And you're right, these announcers have never made any mistakes in any of these games. LOL.
Lots of people are paid to be broadcasters and many of them are called idiots, including by you right here on this board. I guess you have exceptions. LOL
Quote from: MUSF on June 19, 2013, 08:16:01 PM
I actually feel sorry for people that watch Lebron and can't appreciate that they are seeing something truly special and unique.
Amen.
This is a 265lb man with world class athleticism and doing things that most players can only dream of. Lots of haters out there, but this guy can play all 5 positions. But hey, I don't watch a ton of NBA basketball so I'm not capable of knowing what a blocking foul is or how good Lebron is. ;D
Quote from: forgetful on June 19, 2013, 06:37:42 PM
During any other game, they call a foul on Green 9 times out of 10. Whether one thinks its a foul or not doesn't matter, lebron gets the benefit of the doubt 90% of the time.
That's because it was a foul and should be called on Green 9 times out of 10 if not every time. It's not a matter of the benefit of the doubt, he is blocking James advancement to the rim...it is a blocking foul whether that is LeBron James with the ball or George Gershwin.
Quote from: MUSF on June 19, 2013, 09:16:22 PM
Lebron is great. Jordan was great. Lebron can do a lot of things on the court Jordan could never do. Jordan did a lot of things that Lebron can't do. Ten years from now we may be able to have a legitimate debate about who was better. Until then, I'm going to enjoy watching Lebron do things that I have never seen before.
Completely 100% agree. Lebron James is a special player. Enjoy him.
Quote from: forgetful on June 19, 2013, 10:36:42 PM
Now, I happen to think Jordan is the best ever, but a guy like Robertson, with todays training may be the best ever. Dude averaged a triple double...that will never be done again. Lebron averages a triple double I'll gladly crown him king.
Oscar Robertson was a great player. But he averaged a triple double in 1961-62. Nine teams in the league...the worst of which averaged 110.9 ppg. (Which is more than the top NBA scoring team in the NBA averaged this year - Denver at 106) It was simply a different league back then and hard to compare to today.
Furthermore, all of Oscar's opponents would have the same access to training too right?
Quote from: forgetful on June 19, 2013, 10:36:42 PM
I honestly think the big difference is James as been crowned king since he was very young. He never had to fight for anything, all the 'real' greats did. James has to a large extent made due on sheer god given talent (he has a lot of it).
I have read this statement a few times now, and I still have no idea what you mean. "He never had to fight for anything." WTF does that even mean???
Quote from: Terror Skink on June 20, 2013, 08:00:38 AM
I have read this statement a few times now, and I still have no idea what you mean. "He never had to fight for anything." WTF does that even mean???
Because of LeBron's combination of size, speed, strength and athleticism, a lot people view him similarly to the kid in junior high who hit puberty first and is "good" because he's bigger than everyone else. There is a whole lot more to becoming an all-time great basketball than being big and having a lot of God-given abilities. Just ask Derrick Coleman, Eddy Curry or Kwame Brown.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 20, 2013, 08:36:08 AM
Because of LeBron's combination of size, speed, strength and athleticism, a lot people view him similarly to the kid in junior high who hit puberty first and is "good" because he's bigger than everyone else. There is a whole lot more to becoming an all-time great basketball than being big and having a lot of God-given abilities. Just ask Derrick Coleman, Eddy Curry or Kwame Brown.
Well then that's a really dumb statement. I'm not sure what would lead people to believe that he doesn't work hard or put the time in.
BTW, Derrick Coleman doesn't belong on that list. He was kind of a dick, but he was a good basketball player. Averaged a double-double five of his first seven seasons in the NBA and stuck around for 16 years.
Quote from: Terror Skink on June 20, 2013, 09:00:19 AM
Well then that's a really dumb statement. I'm not sure what would lead people to believe that he doesn't work hard or put the time in.
BTW, Derrick Coleman doesn't belong on that list. He was kind of a dick, but he was a good basketball player. Averaged a double-double five of his first seven seasons in the NBA and stuck around for 16 years.
When people are resorting to the "LeBron is really only that good because he's bigger than everybody else" criticism, all hope is lost.
Dude's a phenomenon. Guy has rolled two triple-doubles this Finals and some have the temerity to claim he's underperforming. 'Merica.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 20, 2013, 01:05:21 AM
I'm quite aware the hand is part of the ball, the arm is not....as I stated. It was also a blocking foul, which 9 times out of 10 would be called at any other part of the game. And you're right, these announcers have never made any mistakes in any of these games. LOL.
Lots of people are paid to be broadcasters and many of them are called idiots, including by you right here on this board. I guess you have exceptions. LOL
You're aware that the hand is part of the ball, yet as part or your insistence that LeBron was fouled you said Green got him on the hand. LOL, nice backtrack. As for the blocking call, no f'ing way. LeBron lowered his shoulder and initiated contact - either a no call or a charge.
Jeff Van Gundy is not just a broadcaster. He's a former NBA coach who really knows the game. You're an NBA hater who almost never even watches but are cheering for the Heat. I'll go with his informed and unprejudiced opinion over yours.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 20, 2013, 09:39:30 AM
Jeff Van Gundy... and unprejudiced opinion over yours.
He may be a little prejudiced after the way the Heat treated Stan.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 20, 2013, 08:36:08 AM
Because of LeBron's combination of size, speed, strength and athleticism, a lot people view him similarly to the kid in junior high who hit puberty first and is "good" because he's bigger than everyone else. There is a whole lot more to becoming an all-time great basketball than being big and having a lot of God-given abilities. Just ask Derrick Coleman, Eddy Curry or Kwame Brown.
Athleticism gets you the shot, but Skill puts it in the basket. Skill is not God-given. Skill is only obtained through hard work, repetition, and overcoming mistakes. That's why he's considered the best in the world. Those with great talent that didn't work as hard like Tracy McGrady, find themselves on a championship contending team, at the end of the bench, not contributing at all. Your statement about Lebron is very bad.
Quote from: MUSF on June 19, 2013, 08:16:01 PM
I actually feel sorry for people that watch Lebron and can't appreciate that they are seeing something truly special and unique.
I agree. My son and I were talking about this exact thing the other day, and I told him to enjoy watching LeBron because he's a great player and guys like him don't come along all the time. And that's not a popular position to take where we live.
I just don't understand the hate and criticism. He's an incredible talent and one of the greatest ever. At this point, it's pretty clear to me that he doesn't have the killer instinct and competitive fire that Jordan had, but who knows what he'll be like in five years. I personally doubt he'll ever have that -- which in my mind means he'll always come up short in the comparisons to Jordan -- but that doesn't change the fact that he's one of the greatest players I've ever seen. If the biggest criticism that people have is "you're no Jordan," well...that's not bad. And like I said, I just don't understand why people seem to hate him just because he's no Jordan.
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on June 20, 2013, 11:23:01 AM
Athleticism gets you the shot, but Skill puts it in the basket. Skill is not God-given. Skill is only obtained through hard work, repetition, and overcoming mistakes. That's why he's considered the best in the world. Those with great talent that didn't work as hard like Tracy McGrady, find themselves on a championship contending team, at the end of the bench, not contributing at all. Your statement about Lebron is very bad.
I agree with this.
But Tracy McGrady is a terrible example. McGrady's problem is that he has a lot of mileage on his tires. But in his prime, he averaged 20+ ppg in eight seasons. (Over 30 in one of those.) And played in seven straight all star games.
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on June 20, 2013, 11:23:01 AM
Athleticism gets you the shot, but Skill puts it in the basket. Skill is not God-given. Skill is only obtained through hard work, repetition, and overcoming mistakes. That's why he's considered the best in the world. Those with great talent that didn't work as hard like Tracy McGrady, find themselves on a championship contending team, at the end of the bench, not contributing at all. Your statement about Lebron is very bad.
I didn't say that I feel that LeBron coasts by on his athleticism alone. I said that's the perception some people have of him and it was in response to another post. Your reading comprehension is very bad.
Quote from: Terror Skink on June 20, 2013, 09:00:19 AM
Well then that's a really dumb statement. I'm not sure what would lead people to believe that he doesn't work hard or put the time in.
BTW, Derrick Coleman doesn't belong on that list. He was kind of a dick, but he was a good basketball player. Averaged a double-double five of his first seven seasons in the NBA and stuck around for 16 years.
You consider Derrick Coleman an all-time great? Obviously not. But do you think he lived up to his potential?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 20, 2013, 11:52:00 AM
You consider Derrick Coleman an all-time great? Obviously not. But do you think he lived up to his potential?
That's a good question. Probably not.
I've noticed that it is almost always those who don't like LeBron, that bring up the Jordan comparison. I can only assume that is because "he's not as good as Jordan," is about he only "criticism" they have left. Funny thing is, people almost always agree, though I happen to think its close, and it is also too soon to tell. They're different players too. LeBron can guard any position, he's obviously bigger (which some in this thread seem to think should be held against him), I'd say he's a better passer, and probably a better shooter, but for now, I'm not sure anyone would deny that Jordan is the best ever. Ten years from now, we'll see if that's still the case.
I watch a lot of NBA hoops and have done so since I was a wee Knicks fan during the Reed-Frazier era. I also am a huge college hoops fan. Unlike many college basketball fans, I appreciate the NBA as its own great brand of basketball and I especially enjoy the playoffs. OK, those are my "qualifications" as an educated observer. As for LeBron ...
He is one of the 10 best players I've ever seen. (I'm not counting guys like Wilt, Russell, Cousy, Robertson, West and others who, unfortunately, were way past their primes before I became a fan/observer.)
I believe LeBron is the best to have played since Jordan re-retired after the second threepeat. As much as I respect the skills and accomplishments of Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Nash, Nowitzki, Iverson, Kidd, Pierce, Allen, Parker, Wade, Carmelo, Howard, Yao, McGrady, Paul, Stoudemire, Carter, Rose, Durant and others, I don't think anybody has had LeBron's combination of power, speed, scoring, passing, shotblocking, on-ball defending and rebounding. Kobe would rank second on my best-since-MJ list.
I think too many incorrectly believe LeBron "isn't a winner." He actually has won a lot, carrying a mediocre Cleveland team to the NBA Finals and now making his third straight Finals appearance with a talented but flawed Miami team. If he wins his second straight NBA title, he will join some pretty select company. Though still no Jordan in the "killer instinct" department, LeBron has become a much more reliable finisher, hitting many game-winners for the Heat. (He definitely spit the bit late in Game 6, though, and far too many national stories gave him too much credit after Bosh and Allen bailed him out. )
One of the things I really appreciate about LeBron is that as big and strong and naturally talented as he is, he has worked hard to make himself better. He has increased his shooting percentage for six straight years, shooting .565 this season -- that was fifth in the league, which is incredible given the number of outside shots he takes. He has become a significantly better 3-point shooter; his .406 this season ranked in the top 30 and was only .019 lower than that of Novak, who is one of the great shooters ever. He increased his rebound total each of the last three years, averaged his second-most assists and did it all while committing his second-fewest turnovers.
If anything, LeBron often is too unselfish on the court. Of course, as good as Pippen was, Michael never had a teammate who was as much a "gamer" as Wade has been for Miami.
My main beef with LeBron is that he sometimes doesn't hustle after he misses a shot, especially if he thinks he was fouled. As nits go, it's a pretty small one.
As for the comparisons to Jordan, they are very different players. LeBron is more like Magic was -- a super-talented distributor who also can play every position on the floor -- but a better scorer and defender. In addition to all the remarkable individual things Jordan did, he also went 6-for-6 in the NBA Finals, and that's out of LeBron's reach. Jordan also was a cultural icon, more than LeBron has been or probably ever will be even though Jordan was in the pre-Internet, pre-Twitter era.
As others have pointed out, saying somebody isn't as good as Jordan was is hardly condemnation.
Mostly, I really enjoy watching LeBron play. He is special, and we don't get to see special come along very often.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 20, 2013, 09:39:30 AM
You're aware that the hand is part of the ball, yet as part or your insistence that LeBron was fouled you said Green got him on the hand. LOL, nice backtrack. As for the blocking call, no f'ing way. LeBron lowered his shoulder and initiated contact - either a no call or a charge.
Jeff Van Gundy is not just a broadcaster. He's a former NBA coach who really knows the game. You're an NBA hater who almost never even watches but are cheering for the Heat. I'll go with his informed and unprejudiced opinion over yours.
I of course agree. I like listening to Van Gundy. But he did say Miami should have taken Bosh out of the game about 5 seconds before Bosh got the rebound that led to Allen's game-tying 3-pointer. Curiously, while he repeatedly brought up Popovich's foolish decision to sit Duncan, Van Gundy didn't bring up his own call to sit Bosh.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 20, 2013, 09:39:30 AM
You're aware that the hand is part of the ball, yet as part or your insistence that LeBron was fouled you said Green got him on the hand. LOL, nice backtrack. As for the blocking call, no f'ing way. LeBron lowered his shoulder and initiated contact - either a no call or a charge.
Jeff Van Gundy is not just a broadcaster. He's a former NBA coach who really knows the game. You're an NBA hater who almost never even watches but are cheering for the Heat. I'll go with his informed and unprejudiced opinion over yours.
Wow, watch the video. He is blocking him way before the shoulder gets into him. Blocking all the way. There is no way you can tell me he isn't impeding his way by sliding into his path before contact is made. That is a blocking foul, on top of the fact that he hits him on the arm. You want to quibble about the hand, that's fine...I stick by what I said that LeBron was fouled by Green and the ball should have remained with the Heat and a pair of free throws. Bad call....just like the non-traveling call on Ginobli.
I realize Van Gundy was a former coach, lots of them out there that are FORMER coaches. Emphasis on FORMER, just because you were a coach at one point doesn't make you great....every past soldier isn't a great human being or brave...every past CEO isn't necessarily a great business person, etc, etc.. Having said that, I happen to like Van Gundy, actually. I do think he is smart, I also think he says some things in the broadcast that aren't accurate.
I don't care for the style of the NBA, doesn't mean I don't know the rules and especially the ability of the players. Let's not divorce ourselves from reality. Cheering for the Heat? Not really. I definitely like to see heads explode, but if I was cheering for the Heat I would be watching all these games and I simply haven't. I have a mild interest, hope Wade is a champion again, but if he isn't doesn't really matter to me. I'm not actively cheering for anyone, especially since I really respect Tim Duncan and Popovich. Duncan was in Milwaukee at the NCAA Tournament when MU hosted and we got to interact a bit. It was great. Have no qualms with him getting his 5th either...none whatsoever.
Quote from: MU82 on June 20, 2013, 04:03:52 PM
Mostly, I really enjoy watching LeBron play. He is special, and we don't get to see special come along very often.
Well said, and precisely the point I was making to my son.
Quote from: MU82 on June 20, 2013, 04:05:56 PM
I of course agree. I like listening to Van Gundy. But he did say Miami should have taken Bosh out of the game about 5 seconds before Bosh got the rebound that led to Allen's game-tying 3-pointer. Curiously, while he repeatedly brought up Popovich's foolish decision to sit Duncan, Van Gundy didn't bring up his own call to sit Bosh.
Exactly, he's a smart guy but Lenny is trying to put him on Mt. Rushmore of basketball iconic coaches \ broadcasters....no way. He makes plenty of mistakes in his broadcasting analysis.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 20, 2013, 04:27:01 PM
Exactly, he's a smart guy but Lenny is trying to put him on Mt. Rushmore of basketball iconic coaches \ broadcasters....no way. He makes plenty of mistakes in his broadcasting analysis.
Again with the hyperbole. I never put him on Mt Rushmore, but compared to a guy who hates the NBA and never even watches it (that would be you), he's pro basketball's answer to Einstein.
Quote from: forgetful on June 19, 2013, 10:36:42 PM
One game is not a big deal. I'm well aware that Jordan got shut down sometimes and had bad games. The difference is they were flukes. Lebron has had a tendency to not come up big in the end of games. Two turnovers down the stretch in game 1, bad, but fixable. Two in a game 6 with the series on the line...different. Lebron is one of the greats in the game today. In my opinion, he isn't in the top 10 ever...likely not in the top 20. But that is a tall order.
Appreciate your conviction to your argument, but the bolded is an absolutely ludicrous statement. Lebron is 1A to Jordan...and possibly #1. Lebron has averaged 31.5 in elimination games, just as Jordan did. Lebron has been clutch. Lebron flat out willed his team to the game 6 win. He was a man among boys on that court. The rejection of Duncan was epic. 6'8" and 265, that can handle ball and beat virtually anyone off the dribble, defend all 5 positions, sees the floor well. Jordan would have absolutely had his hands full defending Lebron. I really can't see MJ's post up game being effective against Lebron - which became Jordan's bread and butter his last 7 years roughly. Lebron MUCH stronger than Jordan.
But to say he isn't Top 20, is so over the top, still can't believe I read that!!
Yo Chicos,
Any idea why it's so hard to get ABC in Philly? I read online that you need some kind of super antenna to pick up the signal. How in the world have they not fixed this glaring problem in the FOURTH largest media market in the country (DMA)?
Quote from: Ners on June 20, 2013, 05:18:45 PM
Appreciate your conviction to your argument, but the bolded is an absolutely ludicrous statement. Lebron is 1A to Jordan...and possibly #1. Lebron has averaged 31.5 in elimination games, just as Jordan did. Lebron has been clutch. Lebron flat out willed his team to the game 6 win. He was a man among boys on that court. The rejection of Duncan was epic. 6'8" and 265, that can handle ball and beat virtually anyone off the dribble, defend all 5 positions, sees the floor well. Jordan would have absolutely had his hands full defending Lebron. I really can't see MJ's post up game being effective against Lebron - which became Jordan's bread and butter his last 7 years roughly. Lebron MUCH stronger than Jordan.
But to say he isn't Top 20, is so over the top, still can't believe I read that!!
I'm with Ners on this one. Lebron is only 28 years old and has three MVPs, that alone puts him in top 10, maybe top 5. The basketball skills of a guy 6ft 8, 260lbs is just amazing.
I believe he goes crazy tonight and his legacy continues.
Quote from: Ners on June 20, 2013, 05:18:45 PM
Appreciate your conviction to your argument, but the bolded is an absolutely ludicrous statement. Lebron is 1A to Jordan...and possibly #1. Lebron has averaged 31.5 in elimination games, just as Jordan did. Lebron has been clutch. Lebron flat out willed his team to the game 6 win. He was a man among boys on that court. The rejection of Duncan was epic. 6'8" and 265, that can handle ball and beat virtually anyone off the dribble, defend all 5 positions, sees the floor well. Jordan would have absolutely had his hands full defending Lebron. I really can't see MJ's post up game being effective against Lebron - which became Jordan's bread and butter his last 7 years roughly. Lebron MUCH stronger than Jordan.
But to say he isn't Top 20, is so over the top, still can't believe I read that!!
Ners, you are right (but lebron has a long way to go to be 1A). My thought was that right now Lebron is in the next tier of great stars (and as he is young will likely move up). I thought that next tier is larger than it actually is. My problem is that Lebron has been the clearly best in the league really only the last two years. Before that a healthy Wade gave him a run for his money and a healthy Kobe was clearly his superior. Looking back at it all I would still break it into two tiers, with Lebron currently in tier two, but likely if he can continue as he has the last two years move into tier 1 no problem.
Tier 1 in no particular order:
Jordan
Bird
Magic
Russell
Wilt
Jabbar
Robertson
Tier 2 in no particular order:
Shaq
Kobe
James
Duncan
West
Elgin Baylor
If wade had been able to stay healthy I think he would have been in tier 2. The question for Lebron is if he can stay at the top of the league or if some of the up-and-coming players (Durant) surpass him. Health is the main issue.
As for a 6-8 260 lb guy that can play all positions. I'll take Magic every day of the week.
Quote from: nyg on June 20, 2013, 05:32:02 PM
I'm with Ners on this one. Lebron is only 28 years old and has three MVPs, that alone puts him in top 10, maybe top 5. The basketball skills of a guy 6ft 8, 260lbs is just amazing.
I believe he goes crazy tonight and his legacy continues.
He actually has 4 MVPs. If his career ended today, he'd be top 20 without a sliver of doubt and probably top 10. Virtually no way he doesn't crack the top 5, and most likely enters into the discussion of #2 (along with Wilt), barring a catastrophic injury.
Conversation with some friends the other day...
Is there a way to separate Lebron the basketball player from Lebron the athlete? Is he the best (or one of) basketball player ever because of his basketball ability or because he won the genetic lottery? I think Lebron absolutely is a skilled basketball player. But how much of his success is simply the genetic lottery? Contrast that to other greats with lesser athleticism. I know it's merely nit-picking, but it's an interesting conversation, IMO.
The same conversation could be had over many other players from the past as well.
Quote from: jmayer1 on June 20, 2013, 07:12:53 PM
He actually has 4 MVPs.
I hate the MVP argument simply because players in the past were given less MVPs than the deserved simply because people got tired of voting for the same guy. Karl Malone? Please...
Quote from: jesmu84 on June 20, 2013, 07:19:19 PM
I hate the MVP argument simply because players in the past were given less MVPs than the deserved simply because people got tired of voting for the same guy. Karl Malone? Please...
I agree, kind of like D Rose winning a couple years ago, I was just correcting him.
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on June 20, 2013, 11:23:01 AM
Athleticism gets you the shot, but Skill puts it in the basket. Skill is not God-given. Skill is only obtained through hard work, repetition, and overcoming mistakes. That's why he's considered the best in the world. Those with great talent that didn't work as hard like Tracy McGrady, find themselves on a championship contending team, at the end of the bench, not contributing at all. Your statement about Lebron is very bad.
Everyone in the NBA has the skills. You don't get there without it. Guys like Novak can go into a gym and make 99 out of 100 from 3. Guys like Paul have the ball on a string.
Lebron's uniqueness (like Magic) is that he has unique size, the leaping ability of Jordan...these are genetic abnormalities. Is he still extremely skilled, absolutely, but it is his genetics that put him in discussion with the greatest.
Lenny
I'm curious, if broadcaster and former coach on the radio broadcast said it was a blocking foul by Green does that count? Or is it just Van Gundy? By the way, my guy I'm talking about is a Hall of Famer in Hubie Brown. ;D
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 20, 2013, 08:38:06 PM
Lenny
I'm curious, if broadcaster and former coach on the radio broadcast said it was a blocking foul by Green does that count? Or is it just Van Gundy? By the way, my guy I'm talking about is a Hall of Famer in Hubie Brown. ;D
Link?
I4's media guide is about to get bigger!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Jay Bee on June 20, 2013, 10:47:33 PM
I4's media guide is about to get bigger!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm figurin' Doris will be interviewin' T-Cubed next on the floor.
Quote from: Jay Bee on June 20, 2013, 10:47:33 PM
I4's media guide is about to get bigger!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How about congrats to our greatest player of all time?
Nope, let's make it something negative!
Quote from: jesmu84 on June 20, 2013, 07:18:04 PM
Conversation with some friends the other day...
Is there a way to separate Lebron the basketball player from Lebron the athlete? Is he the best (or one of) basketball player ever because of his basketball ability or because he won the genetic lottery? I think Lebron absolutely is a skilled basketball player. But how much of his success is simply the genetic lottery? Contrast that to other greats with lesser athleticism. I know it's merely nit-picking, but it's an interesting conversation, IMO.
The same conversation could be had over many other players from the past as well.
"Athletes" don't shoot 57% from the floor and 41% from 3-point range in addition to all the incredible things LeBron does. "Basketball players" do that.
If you don't think Jordan and Wilt were "genetically gifted," you apparently didn't watch them much.
Another incredible elimination-game and Game 7 performance from the best player of the post-MJ era.
So many were just hoping they could rip him as a choker but he made shot after shot after shot after shot.
Meanwhile, Duncan, who obviously isn't a choker, nevertheless missed two bunnies down the stretch. Stuff happens.
Oh, and that Wade guy ain't half-bad, either!!
Worst thing that could have happened to the NBA happened tonight.
I'm tired of LeBron. When Jordan won his sixth, he was jumping around, crying, and emotional. LeBron didn't even react.
In game six, he at one point was 9-21, I believe and they were calling him spectacular. He of course finished with a trip dub, but how is shooting 41% spectacular? But congrats to Wade. Last year of the big three. My heart goes out to Timmy though. Something about seeing him cry at the end tore me to pieces. I hope he comes back for a another year or two.
Quote from: setyoursightsnorth on June 20, 2013, 11:41:08 PM
Worst thing that could have happened to the NBA happened tonight.
I'm tired of LeBron. When Jordan won his sixth, he was jumping around, crying, and emotional. LeBron didn't even react.
In game six, he at one point was 9-21, I believe and they were calling him spectacular. He of course finished with a trip dub, but how is shooting 41% spectacular? But congrats to Wade. Last year of the big three. My heart goes out to Timmy though. Something about seeing him cry at the end tore me to pieces. I hope he comes back for a another year or two.
Maybe when Lebron is kicked out of the league for gambling and then allowed to come back and win his 6th he will jump around, crying and all emotional. We'll have to wait and see.
James had a triple double in game 6, including a few incredibly clutch shots down the stretch to get the team to OT.
Based on the ratings tonight, I'm guessing the NBA is going to disagree with you that this is a bad thing. This will be the highest rated NBA game in years I'm going to wager.
Quote from: setyoursightsnorth on June 20, 2013, 11:41:08 PM
Worst thing that could have happened to the NBA happened tonight.
I'm tired of LeBron. When Jordan won his sixth, he was jumping around, crying, and emotional. LeBron didn't even react.
In game six, he at one point was 9-21, I believe and they were calling him spectacular. He of course finished with a trip dub, but how is shooting 41% spectacular? But congrats to Wade. Last year of the big three. My heart goes out to Timmy though. Something about seeing him cry at the end tore me to pieces. I hope he comes back for a another year or two.
Dude can't win.
It must be exhausting for all of you haters to have to keep finding something to bash the guy about.
Quote from: MU82 on June 20, 2013, 11:32:57 PM
"Athletes" don't shoot 57% from the floor and 41% from 3-point range in addition to all the incredible things LeBron does. "Basketball players" do that.
If you don't think Jordan and Wilt were "genetically gifted," you apparently didn't watch them much.
Absolutely. Some have said Wilt was the greatest ATHLETE to ever play. Bench press 500lbs, ran the 440 in under 50 seconds and the 880 in under 2 minutes, vertical of better than 45" for a man 7 feet tall and 275 lbs. High jumped 6'6" and broad jump of 22 feet. An athletic freak of nature.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 20, 2013, 11:43:39 PM
Maybe when Lebron is kicked out of the league for gambling and then allowed to come back and win his 6th he will jump around, crying and all emotional. We'll have to wait and see.
James had a triple double in game 6, including a few incredibly clutch shots down the stretch to get the team to OT.
Based on the ratings tonight, I'm guessing the NBA is going to disagree with you that this is a bad thing. This will be the highest rated NBA game in years I'm going to wager.
Totally an urban legend.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 20, 2013, 11:43:39 PM
Based on the ratings tonight, I'm guessing the NBA is going to disagree with you that this is a bad thing. This will be the highest rated NBA game in years I'm going to wager.
All the bars were jam-packed...my buddies settled for Ruby Tuesdays across the street from Hooters and one of the local sports bars...you'd think the Super Bowl was on tonight.
Quote from: MU82 on June 20, 2013, 11:32:57 PM
"Athletes" don't shoot 57% from the floor and 41% from 3-point range in addition to all the incredible things LeBron does. "Basketball players" do that.
If you don't think Jordan and Wilt were "genetically gifted," you apparently didn't watch them much.
I said James was skilled. I was asking if he was the "greatest" because of his athleticism, not so much his basketball ability. If you leveled the athletic ability of the "greats", I'm betting that Lebron would fall well down the list from possible "greatest" status.
Also, I never said Jordan and Wilt and others weren't gifted. As a matter of fact, I said that the same conversation could be had about them.
Quote from: forgetful on June 20, 2013, 11:52:47 PM
Totally an urban legend.
Honestly, I think it would make me like Jordan more if it was true.
One thing that blows my mind is how MJ gets a pass for walking away from his teammates, coaches, and fans at the height of his career to chase some arrogant pipe dream. Can you imagine the meltdown if Lebron left the NBA next season to try to make it in the NFL? And he would probably have a legitimate chance of making a pro roster, unlike Jordan.
Sorry for that rant. Let me end by stating again for the record, that I still consider MJ the best ever and love/respect his game.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 20, 2013, 11:49:36 PM
Absolutely. Some have said Wilt was the greatest ATHLETE to ever play. Bench press 500lbs, ran the 440 in under 50 seconds and the 880 in under 2 minutes, vertical of better than 45" for a man 7 feet tall and 275 lbs. High jumped 6'6" and broad jump of 22 feet. An athletic freak of nature.
Again... I never said other greats weren't athletically gifted. I was simply asking if Lebron being the greatest player of all time (to some) was more due to his athletic gifts than his basketball ability. Someone like Lebron (and probably a few others) who dominates basketball could dominate other sports just as easily. But there are also great basketball players who could only play basketball due to their lack of athleticism. If the athletic/genetic field were leveled, does Lebron still belong in the conversation as greastest? Does Wilt? etc.
It was merely a talking point.
Quote from: MUSF on June 20, 2013, 11:47:15 PM
Dude can't win.
It must be exhausting for all of you haters to have to keep finding something to bash the guy about.
Nope. Could keep this up for days. I'm sure there is something /someone you don't like either. All part of what makes each of us different. I will never be a fan of his. Sorry..
Quote from: setyoursightsnorth on June 21, 2013, 12:31:39 AM
Nope. Could keep this up for days. I'm sure there is something /someone you don't like either. All part of what makes each of us different. I will never be a fan of his. Sorry..
I don't expect you to be a fan, but stop trying to convince people that he's not that good.
I hated Bird, Kareem, Stockton, and Malone, but I am still able to admit that they were all time greats.
Was a great playoff year for NBA and I agree the ratings should be off the charts.
Bosch, Miller and Allen shoot 0 for 14, scoring zero points among them and the Heat still win. Lebron was awesome, Wade was awesome and props to Battier, who had sucked on offense the whole series and has one tremendous game when it counts.
Quote from: jesmu84 on June 20, 2013, 07:19:19 PM
I hate the MVP argument simply because players in the past were given less MVPs than the deserved simply because people got tired of voting for the same guy. Karl Malone? Please...
Agreed because Steve Nash truly didn't deserve his second MVP.
Quote from: forgetful on June 20, 2013, 07:08:52 PM
Tier 1 in no particular order:
Jordan
Bird
Magic
Russell
Wilt
Jabbar
Robertson
Tier 2 in no particular order:
Shaq
Kobe
James
Duncan
West
Elgin Baylor
If wade had been able to stay healthy I think he would have been in tier 2. The question for Lebron is if he can stay at the top of the league or if some of the up-and-coming players (Durant) surpass him. Health is the main issue.
As for a 6-8 260 lb guy that can play all positions. I'll take Magic every day of the week.
Lebron James could be hit by a car tomorrow, and he'd have a better career than Larry Bird did.
And really, the Oscar Robertson thing is very misguided.
And while I loved Magic, you need to account for the fact that he was at best an average defender...whereas James is an elite defender.
Quote from: forgetful on June 20, 2013, 07:08:52 PM
Ners, you are right (but lebron has a long way to go to be 1A). My thought was that right now Lebron is in the next tier of great stars (and as he is young will likely move up). I thought that next tier is larger than it actually is. My problem is that Lebron has been the clearly best in the league really only the last two years. Before that a healthy Wade gave him a run for his money and a healthy Kobe was clearly his superior. Looking back at it all I would still break it into two tiers, with Lebron currently in tier two, but likely if he can continue as he has the last two years move into tier 1 no problem.
Tier 1 in no particular order:
Jordan
Bird
Magic
Russell
Wilt
Jabbar
Robertson
Tier 2 in no particular order:
Shaq
Kobe
James
Duncan
West
Elgin Baylor
If wade had been able to stay healthy I think he would have been in tier 2. The question for Lebron is if he can stay at the top of the league or if some of the up-and-coming players (Durant) surpass him. Health is the main issue.
As for a 6-8 260 lb guy that can play all positions. I'll take Magic every day of the week.
You really don't think Julius Erving belongs on one of those tiers?
Quote from: MUSF on June 20, 2013, 11:47:15 PM
Dude can't win.
It must be exhausting for all of you haters to have to keep finding something to bash the guy about.
Regardless of Game 7's outcome, the top sports story today was going to be LeBron.
Quote from: MU82 on June 21, 2013, 07:54:09 AM
You really don't think Julius Erving belongs on one of those tiers?
I don't think so, but Hakeem does.
I would consider Lebron to be tier 1 now if you want to use those categorizations.
It's also ridiculous to say Kobe was better than James at any point after his first few years, and downright silly to say he was 3 years ago.
I consider myself blessed to have been able to watch and cheer for the Bulls during the height of the championship era from right here in Chicago. I've also been a diehard Heat fan since DWade put on the jersey. Here's my observation about James vs. Jordan:
In my mind what made Michael so very special and #1 all-time was his unique ability to personally play at the highest level his skillset would allow nearly 100% of the time. He had unique mental toughness that started to exhibit itself after about 6 years in the league beginning with the shot against Cleveland. I think that James is blessed with nearly equivalent athletic and basketball ability (although a somewhat different skillset than Jordan). What James is yet to fully master is the mental side of the game. There are times when he simply 'goes away' followed by times (usually in the 4th quarter which is key....think game 6) when he is able to summon his super hero cape and dominate. You can practically see it in his eyes and know when he's 'feeling it'.
As to who better represented the league, that's an easy answer for me. Jordan's public persona was a Gatorade creation in my mind. In reality, he has a mediocre reputation in Chicago for anyone who chose to look carefully. Scottie Pippen was also often less than a stellar citizen. I'll take Wade, Ray Allen and James any day on that front and therefore chalk up much of the Heat hatred as simply 'best team envy'.
Quote from: Terror Skink on June 21, 2013, 07:37:18 AM
Lebron James could be hit by a car tomorrow, and he'd have a better career than Larry Bird did.
And really, the Oscar Robertson thing is very misguided.
And while I loved Magic, you need to account for the fact that he was at best an average defender...whereas James is an elite defender.
Agree 1000%
Quote from: jsglow on June 21, 2013, 08:31:36 AM
I consider myself blessed to have been able to watch and cheer for the Bulls during the height of the championship era from right here in Chicago. I've also been a diehard Heat fan since DWade put on the jersey. Here's my observation about James vs. Jordan:
In my mind what made Michael so very special and #1 all-time was his unique ability to personally play at the highest level his skillset would allow nearly 100% of the time. He had unique mental toughness that started to exhibit itself after about 6 years in the league beginning with the shot against Cleveland. I think that James is blessed with nearly equivalent athletic and basketball ability (although a somewhat different skillset than Jordan). What James is yet to fully master is the mental side of the game. There are times when he simply 'goes away' followed by times (usually in the 4th quarter which is key....think game 6) when he is able to summon his super hero cape and dominate. You can practically see it in his eyes and know when he's 'feeling it'.
As to who better represented the league, that's an easy answer for me. Jordan's public persona was a Gatorade creation in my mind. In reality, he has a mediocre reputation in Chicago for anyone who chose to look carefully. Scottie Pippen was also often less than a stellar citizen. I'll take Wade, Ray Allen and James any day on that front and therefore chalk up much of the Heat hatred as simply 'best team envy'.
Mike and Mike were discussing the comparisons, they said that Jordan was all out all of the time. That is the offensive separation. The duo both agreed that LBJ was easily the better defender. They used Tony Parker as an example... TP blows by everyone, but LBJ managed to defend him quite well when he was asked to... and LBJ is 6'8 260lbs.
While I understand the comparisons, they are different types of players. If I had to pick first between the two I'd take Jordan simply because he elevated everyone around him. His competitive streak is second to none.
They are pretty even right now:
Lebron at 28: 4 MVPs, 2 NBA Titles, 2 NBA Final MVPs, 9 All Star selections
MJ at 29: 3 MVPs, 2 NBA Titiles, 2 NBA Final MVPS, 8 All Star selections
Only one other person did this
http://www.sbnation.com/2013/6/21/4451630/king-of-the-finals/in/4212789
Quote from: nyg on June 21, 2013, 08:59:01 AM
They are pretty even right now:
Lebron at 28: 4 MVPs, 2 NBA Titles, 2 NBA Final MVPs, 9 All Star selections
MJ at 29: 3 MVPs, 2 NBA Titiles, 2 NBA Final MVPS, 8 All Star selections
LeBron had an extra season in there, but that's still pretty impressive.
It's also a joke that MJ only won 5 MVPs. He should have at least 8-10 MVP awards. LeBron should probably have more than 4 already as well.
Quote from: nyg on June 21, 2013, 08:59:01 AM
They are pretty even right now:
Lebron at 28: 4 MVPs, 2 NBA Titles, 2 NBA Final MVPs, 9 All Star selections
MJ at 29: 3 MVPs, 2 NBA Titiles, 2 NBA Final MVPS, 8 All Star selections
Thanks for that. Really interesting. For me, part of this will be whether James can sustain his level of play and lead the Heat to several more championships. At 29, Michael still had many great years ahead. His ability to simply dominate and elevate his team was unmatched.
The Heat will probably rid themselves of Miller and O'Neil. Haslem maybe, Battier and Allen also, but the Heat have no draft choices.
Wade will get his knee repaired and the Heat will get replacements to continue this run, even with salary cap issue. Bench/role player free agents should be be lining up to be a part of this.
17.7 rating. I think the NBA is quite happy.
Quote from: jsglow on June 21, 2013, 09:23:56 AM
Thanks for that. Really interesting. For me, part of this will be whether James can sustain his level of play and lead the Heat to several more championships. At 29, Michael still had many great years ahead. His ability to simply dominate and elevate his team was unmatched.
It will be really interesting to see how LeBron's body holds up these next few years. He has played a lot of games and a lot of minutes for someone his age and has been remarkably healthy. We've never really seen someone his size play his style of game so there's not really a good comparison out there for how his body could potentially hold up. A lot of explosive perimeter players have had their bodies, particularly their feet and knees, begin to breakdown on them in their 30s and none of them were carrying 260+ pounds. I truly hope he stays healthy because he has a chance to go down as the greatest player of all time.
It's amazing to me that he's only 28. Barring major injury, he could conceivably be in the NBA for 8-10 more years. I look forward to seeing how he progresses - will be be able to sustain his explosiveness, will he become more of a spot-up 3-point shooter, etc. Personally, I could see a 35-year-old LeBron playing a pick-and-pop/Karl Malone type role and still putting up 25 a game for a contender.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 21, 2013, 10:04:47 AM
I truly hope he stays healthy because he has a chance to go down as the greatest player of all time.
It's amazing to me that he's only 28. Barring major injury, he could conceivably be in the NBA for 8-10 more years. I look forward to seeing how he progresses - will be be able to sustain his explosiveness, will he become more of a spot-up 3-point shooter, etc. Personally, I could see a 35-year-old LeBron playing a pick-and-pop/Karl Malone type role and still putting up 25 a game for a contender.
This is what's so fascinating about him compared to others. It appears he has totally unique size, strength, and skill to be able to completely transform his game when the time comes. He may not be guarding all five positions in a few years from now, as he does now, but if he holds up physically, there is no reason to believe he can't remain a dominant offensive player for many years to come.
I suspect he'll win one or two more titles in Miami, then return to the young talent being assembled in Cleveland for one or two there. After that who knows.
Quote from: nyg on June 21, 2013, 09:45:42 AM
The Heat will probably rid themselves of Miller and O'Neil. Haslem maybe, Battier and Allen also, but the Heat have no draft choices.
Wade will get his knee repaired and the Heat will get replacements to continue this run, even with salary cap issue. Bench/role player free agents should be be lining up to be a part of this.
Bosh to Charlotte for the #4 pick and one of Mullens/Biyombo/Sessions. Take Bennett or Len at #4 or look to trade down for another piece (shooter?) plus a lower pick to take a more NBA-ready big man like Olynyk, Dieng or Plumlee.
Somebody get me Pat Riley's number!
Haters gonna hate...
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2013/06/21/baffoe-keep-hating-lebron-james/ (http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2013/06/21/baffoe-keep-hating-lebron-james/)
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 21, 2013, 10:16:13 AM
Bosh to Charlotte for the #4 pick and one of Mullens/Biyombo/Sessions. Take Bennett or Len at #4 or look to trade down for another piece (shooter?) plus a lower pick to take a more NBA-ready big man like Olynyk, Dieng or Plumlee.
Somebody get me Pat Riley's number!
No way anyone (actually MJ might be dumb enough too) takes that Bosh contract. Dude is max player for the next 3 years. 19 mil next year, 21 mil in a player option, then 22 mil the year after in another player option.
I am not sure if he is even a top 50 player anymore, maybe in talent, but not that with that contract.
Quote from: reinko on June 21, 2013, 10:30:20 AM
No way anyone (actually MJ might be dumb enough too) takes that Bosh contract. Dude is max player for the next 3 years. 19 mil next year, 21 mil in a player option, then 22 mil the year after in another player option.
I am not sure if he is even a top 50 player anymore, maybe in talent, but not that with that contract.
Not saying it's a smart move for Charlotte, but the rumors are out there.
The Heat don't need Bosh. They need a big banger down low.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 21, 2013, 10:35:03 AM
Not saying it's a smart move for Charlotte, but the rumors are out there.
Who is the owner and chairman of the Charlotte franchise? ;)
MJ and LJ
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/basketball/bulls/20846631-419/lebron-james-has-critics-that-michael-jordan-never-dealt-with.html
More good info
Jordan has 9 NBA all-defensive teams and one DPOY
LeBron has 5 NBA all-defensive teams
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on June 21, 2013, 10:51:06 AM
The Heat don't need Bosh. They need a big banger down low.
Agreed...I find it really hard to see Bosh back with this team next year.
Quote from: muarmy81 on June 21, 2013, 11:16:17 AM
Agreed...I find it really hard to see Bosh back with this team next year.
Try not to be a prisoner of the moment here. Bosh had a bad game and overall had a bad series, but the Heat would not have won a title this year or last year without him. He is a heck of a third option for them and will be back for the Heat.
Quote from: muarmy81 on June 21, 2013, 11:16:17 AM
Agreed...I find it really hard to see Bosh back with this team next year.
Again, who is magically going to pay him $65 million the next 3 years.
Quote from: nyg on June 21, 2013, 09:45:42 AM
The Heat will probably rid themselves of Miller and O'Neil. Haslem maybe, Battier and Allen also, but the Heat have no draft choices.
O'Neil?
Quote from: reinko on June 21, 2013, 11:27:35 AM
Again, who is magically going to pay him $65 million the next 3 years.
My money is on the genius in Charlotte.
I'm not quite understanding why Miami should change anything outside of the fringes. Three straight appearances...two straight championships... Why mess with that?
Quote from: MU B2002 on June 21, 2013, 12:08:11 PM
O'Neil?
Who0ps, not Jermaine O'neill, but Rashard Lewis. Both are alike.
Quote from: flash on June 21, 2013, 11:25:29 AM
Try not to be a prisoner of the moment here. Bosh had a bad game and overall had a bad series, but the Heat would not have won a title this year or last year without him. He is a heck of a third option for them and will be back for the Heat.
I remember a couple of rebounds in crunch-time in Game 6. They don't cut the nets without Bosh. Not sure I'd mess with the Heat core; fringe, then sure.
Quote from: Terror Skink on June 21, 2013, 12:17:40 PM
I'm not quite understanding why Miami should change anything outside of the fringes. Three straight appearances...two straight championships... Why mess with that?
I think Bosh is still a fine player, but Wade is the big question mark. Dude looks like he can barely walk half the time. Without him, or at least without him playing at an effective level, that thing begins to look a bit like what LeBron left behind in Celveland.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on June 21, 2013, 12:23:10 PM
I think Bosh is still a fine player, but Wade is the big question mark. Dude looks like he can barely walk half the time. Without him, or at least without him playing at an effective level, that thing begins to look a bit like what LeBron left behind in Celveland.
Lebron's contract is up in 2014. If you look at Cleveland now, they are built VERY well for the future. I would not be at all surprised to see Lebron go home and retire a hero in Cleveland.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 21, 2013, 12:16:01 PM
My money is on the genius in Charlotte.
He make that move and he'll be fired too!
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on June 21, 2013, 12:30:26 PM
Lebron's contract is up in 2014. If you look at Cleveland now, they are built VERY well for the future. I would not be at all surprised to see Lebron go home and retire a hero in Cleveland.
Only a hero if he brings them a championship.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on June 21, 2013, 12:30:26 PM
Lebron's contract is up in 2014. If you look at Cleveland now, they are built VERY well for the future. I would not be at all surprised to see Lebron go home and retire a hero in Cleveland.
Highly likely that is what's going to happen.
Quote from: jsglow on June 21, 2013, 12:22:33 PM
I remember a couple of rebounds in crunch-time in Game 6. They don't cut the nets without Bosh. Not sure I'd mess with the Heat core; fringe, then sure.
You guys all make valid points but I think MIA would upgrade at the center position, if they could. Beyond the "Big 2 1/2" comments that have been going on for about the past year or so guys like Duncan, Noah, and recently Roy Hibbert did show that MIA is pretty shakey in that position.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on June 21, 2013, 12:30:26 PM
Lebron's contract is up in 2014. If you look at Cleveland now, they are built VERY well for the future. I would not be at all surprised to see Lebron go home and retire a hero in Cleveland.
Do you think he would entertain going back to Cleveland after all the bad blood the had? (Burning jersey's, the owner calling him out, etc)
Quote from: muarmy81 on June 21, 2013, 12:56:06 PM
Do you think he would entertain going back to Cleveland after all the bad blood the had? (Burning jersey's, the owner calling him out, etc)
Yes, because he's a grown up, and they are likely to be stacked with young talent.
Quote from: Terror Skink on June 21, 2013, 12:17:40 PM
I'm not quite understanding why Miami should change anything outside of the fringes. Three straight appearances...two straight championships... Why mess with that?
In the Playoffs this season, Bosh went for 12 and 7 on 46% shooting. You can get that for a lot less than $20M. Those are Carl Landry/Luis Scola numbers. Within the conference, Miami was exposed at the center position by Roy Hibbert and to a lesser extent by a hobbled Joakim Noah. With money coming ON the books and no draft picks, it would be tough for the Heat to upgrade the middle without trading off a piece of value. Obviously LeBron and Wade aren't going anywhere and no one else on the team is going to get much in return (teams rarely trade big for small) so moving Bosh would make sense from that perspective.
The Heat won the championship (which is obviously the ultimate goal) but if the Spurs make one more FT or grab one more defensive board, the Heat's season was a total failure. That's a pretty small margin for error.
Quote from: muarmy81 on June 21, 2013, 12:56:06 PM
Do you think he would entertain going back to Cleveland after all the bad blood the had? (Burning jersey's, the owner calling him out, etc)
Winning + money >>>>>>>> (Burning jersey's, the owner calling him out, etc)
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on June 21, 2013, 12:54:22 PM
Highly likely that is what's going to happen.
I don't see it. Besides Irving, I don't see as much great young talent as some people. There are some decent players but not any other guys that will get Lebron excited to play with.
Quote from: nyg on June 21, 2013, 12:19:12 PM
Who0ps, not Jermaine O'neill, but Rashard Lewis. Both are alike.
Thanks for the clarifaction Paula Dean
Quote from: jmayer1 on June 21, 2013, 03:36:17 PM
I don't see it. Besides Irving, I don't see as much great young talent as some people. There are some decent players but not any other guys that will get Lebron excited to play with.
I personally don't think it's going to happen either, but Cleveland does have the No. 1 and No. 19 picks this year. Hopefully, they'll get some more talent.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on June 21, 2013, 04:19:14 PM
I personally don't think it's going to happen either, but Cleveland does have the No. 1 and No. 19 picks this year. Hopefully, they'll get some more talent.
Weak draft....
This year it might be Nerlens Noel....a fine big man but hardly a franchise player.
As opposed to Andrew Wiggins next year.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on June 21, 2013, 12:54:22 PM
Highly likely that is what's going to happen.
People in L.A. talking hard the last 6 months that they will make a hard run at him. I don't think it happens, but just saying. I'd love to see him go back to Cleveland, but think the owner didn't do himself any favors when he made his comments and continued to make his comments.
Quote from: jmayer1 on June 21, 2013, 03:36:17 PM
I don't see it. Besides Irving, I don't see as much great young talent as some people. There are some decent players but not any other guys that will get Lebron excited to play with.
PG - Kyrie Irving
SG- Dion Waiters
SF - Lebron James
PF - Tristan Thomas
C - Nerlans Noel
That is a pretty good team. And there is plenty of money for someone to come along and play with him.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on June 21, 2013, 04:26:25 PM
PG - Kyrie Irving
SG- Dion Waiters
SF - Lebron James
PF - Tristan Thomas
C - Nerlans Noel
That is a pretty good team. And there is plenty of money for someone to come along and play with him.
Doesn't include next year's potential lottery pick either.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on June 21, 2013, 04:26:25 PM
PG - Kyrie Irving
SG- Dion Waiters
SF - Lebron James
PF - Tristan Thomas
C - Nerlans Noel
That is a pretty good team. And there is plenty of money for someone to come along and play with him.
You could put the third guy on any roster and make it a "pretty good team."
Quote from: Terror Skink on June 21, 2013, 07:37:18 AM
Lebron James could be hit by a car tomorrow, and he'd have a better career than Larry Bird did.
And really, the Oscar Robertson thing is very misguided.
And while I loved Magic, you need to account for the fact that he was at best an average defender...whereas James is an elite defender.
This makes me think that you never watched Larry Legend play. He averaged 24, 10 and 6 for his entire career, while out shooting Lebron from every spot on the floor, all this while having a completely broken body. Bird did absurd things to will his team to victory, things Lebron hasn't done yet in his career, despite having infinitely more athleticism.
As for Robertson, he averaged a triple double...no one else has ever done that. Saying the caliber of teams weren't the same then...well we could say with all the NBA expansion talent in the NBA is diluted so much that Lebron's abilities are artificially inflated. Legitimate argument maybe, can't prove anything, so until we can reincarnate people I'll stick with the guy that did something no one else ever has.
Magic...hands down. Lebron is a very very overrated defender. Yeah, he can guard all 5 positions, but not well. Just like Magic, not a great overall defender, but could guard all 5 players.
Someone else posted about defending Parker, he had an almost completely torn hamstring and he didn't guard him the whole game. When he was on Leonard, Leonard lit him up. They put him on Ginobli and he shot right over him. Lebron gets his reputation as a defender because of flashy blocks...on ball he has poor lateral quickness and players easily take him off the bounce. Watch him every play, poor help defense, poor on the ball defense a few showcase blocks that get you out of your chair...I'd rather have no flash and a shutdown defender.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on June 21, 2013, 04:26:25 PM
PG - Kyrie Irving
SG- Dion Waiters
SF - Lebron James
PF - Tristan Thomas
C - Nerlans Noel
That is a pretty good team. And there is plenty of money for someone to come along and play with him.
Pretty good team on paper.
Quote from: forgetful on June 21, 2013, 04:47:28 PM
This makes me think that you never watched Larry Legend play. He averaged 24, 10 and 6 for his entire career, while out shooting Lebron from every spot on the floor, all this while having a completely broken body. Bird did absurd things to will his team to victory, things Lebron hasn't done yet in his career, despite having infinitely more athleticism.
Lebron...27/7.3/6.9 Fairly similar. Bird a better shooter. James a much better defender.
And please, the last sentence is complete trash. What "absurd" things did Bird do to "will his team to victory?" And tell me how that wasn't done by Lebron in this series.
Quote from: forgetful on June 21, 2013, 04:47:28 PM
As for Robertson, he averaged a triple double...no one else has ever done that. Saying the caliber of teams weren't the same then...well we could say with all the NBA expansion talent in the NBA is diluted so much that Lebron's abilities are artificially inflated.
Well actually no we couldn't. Robertson played at a time when defenses were terrible and he was simply more athletic than anyone else. (A point that you seem to hold against Lebron.) The game being played back then bears no resemblance to the game being played now.
Quote from: forgetful on June 21, 2013, 04:47:28 PM
Magic...hands down. Lebron is a very very overrated defender. Yeah, he can guard all 5 positions, but not well. Just like Magic, not a great overall defender, but could guard all 5 players.
I think you need a new television set because yours apparently doesn't work. "Overrated defender?" I really think you need to watch a little more basketball.
Quote from: forgetful on June 21, 2013, 04:47:28 PM
This makes me think that you never watched Larry Legend play. He averaged 24, 10 and 6 for his entire career, while out shooting Lebron from every spot on the floor, all this while having a completely broken body. Bird did absurd things to will his team to victory, things Lebron hasn't done yet in his career, despite having infinitely more athleticism.
As for Robertson, he averaged a triple double...no one else has ever done that. Saying the caliber of teams weren't the same then...well we could say with all the NBA expansion talent in the NBA is diluted so much that Lebron's abilities are artificially inflated. Legitimate argument maybe, can't prove anything, so until we can reincarnate people I'll stick with the guy that did something no one else ever has.
Magic...hands down. Lebron is a very very overrated defender. Yeah, he can guard all 5 positions, but not well. Just like Magic, not a great overall defender, but could guard all 5 players.
Someone else posted about defending Parker, he had an almost completely torn hamstring and he didn't guard him the whole game. When he was on Leonard, Leonard lit him up. They put him on Ginobli and he shot right over him. Lebron gets his reputation as a defender because of flashy blocks...on ball he has poor lateral quickness and players easily take him off the bounce. Watch him every play, poor help defense, poor on the ball defense a few showcase blocks that get you out of your chair...I'd rather have no flash and a shutdown defender.
Your username is especially relevant.
I guess that a 5 time all NBA defender is totally overrated.
Get real.
Quote from: Terror Skink on June 21, 2013, 04:58:10 PM
Lebron...27/7.3/6.9 Fairly similar. Bird a better shooter. James a much better defender.
And please, the last sentence is complete trash. What "absurd" things did Bird do to "will his team to victory?" And tell me how that wasn't done by Lebron in this series.
Well actually no we couldn't. Robertson played at a time when defenses were terrible and he was simply more athletic than anyone else. (A point that you seem to hold against Lebron.) The game being played back then bears no resemblance to the game being played now.
I think you need a new television set because yours apparently doesn't work. "Overrated defender?" I really think you need to watch a little more basketball.
We clearly disagree, neither of us will change our minds. But at least for point 1, here is an example of smart clutch play from Bird, baited one of the all time great point guards to throw it just where he wanted it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_RJ5XN8TK8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_RJ5XN8TK8)
Or we could go to the 91 series where he was injured and had to leave the game and came back to lead the team to victory.
Also I'm not alone in my opinions.
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/5-on-5-120301/nba-lebron-james-all-time-greats (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/5-on-5-120301/nba-lebron-james-all-time-greats)
Granted they like Lebron over Robertson.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on June 21, 2013, 05:27:58 PM
Your username is especially relevant.
I guess that a 5 time all NBA defender is totally overrated.
Get real.
Honestly, NBA awards and honors mean nothing. Others have pointed it out in terms of MVP awards. If you had to pick a team solely based on defense, offense having no role whatsoever, you would have to be an idiot to choose Lebron.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on June 21, 2013, 04:26:25 PM
PG - Kyrie Irving
SG- Dion Waiters
SF - Lebron James
PF - Tristan Thomas
C - Nerlans Noel
That is a pretty good team. And there is plenty of money for someone to come along and play with him.
Besides Irving, that's a lot of potential and not much actual production yet (obviously those guys are young). I'm not as high on Waiters and Thompson, and we'll see if Noel/#1 pick in a weak draft is ready. If I'm Lebron, not sure if that's enough to get me to come back home. Does he really want to take a chance on those guys' potential/wait for them to grow after having just won 2 (maybe 3) titles in Miami?
If he leaves it may be tough for him to find a team with the right mix of established veterans/young potential on a team that also has enough cap flexibility to sign him under the stricter CBA.
Quote from: jmayer1 on June 21, 2013, 05:53:37 PM
Besides Irving, that's a lot of potential and not much actual production yet (obviously those guys are young). I'm not as high on Waiters and Thompson, and we'll see if Noel/#1 pick in a weak draft is ready. If I'm Lebron, not sure if that's enough to get me to come back home. Does he really want to take a chance on those guys' potential/wait for them to grow after having just won 2 (maybe 3) titles in Miami?
If he leaves it may be tough for him to find a team with the right mix of established veterans/young potential on a team that also has enough cap flexibility to sign him under the stricter CBA.
Its a lot of potential that many other teams won't have after next year, which is really my point. Obviously, there will be a bunch of big time retirements over the next year or two, so yes, a lot could change. I just think that in the next year or two the Cavs could set the table nicely for Lebron to take his talents back to the mistake by the lake. Plus, the Cavs will be flush with cash, and could probably sign not just LBJ, but another star as well.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 21, 2013, 04:26:02 PM
People in L.A. talking hard the last 6 months that they will make a hard run at him. I don't think it happens, but just saying. I'd love to see him go back to Cleveland, but think the owner didn't do himself any favors when he made his comments and continued to make his comments.
Then there is whole lifestyle thing...South Beach or Cleveland? Fulfillment in life distills down to just a few basics but location is certainly one of them. Since he isn't actually from Cleveland I wonder what the draw would be for him.
Quote from: forgetful on June 21, 2013, 05:37:44 PM
Honestly, NBA awards and honors mean nothing. Others have pointed it out in terms of MVP awards. If you had to pick a team solely based on defense, offense having no role whatsoever, you would have to be an idiot to choose Lebron.
Others have opined about MVP awards, but none of it is necessarily true. Shaq was dominant in his day and he only won one. Much of it is about timing, who else is good, etc, etc. I would hardly call putting Lebron on a team based on his defensive abilities an idiot. Not many players can defend Tony Parker for half of one game, slide over to defend their center, defend their interior power forward but also have the ability to defend the 2 guard effectively, all in the same game while logging 45 minutes and being asked to score 30 points per game.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 21, 2013, 08:58:07 PM
Others have opined about MVP awards, but none of it is necessarily true. Shaq was dominant in his day and he only won one. Much of it is about timing, who else is good, etc, etc. I would hardly call putting Lebron on a team based on his defensive abilities an idiot. Not many players can defend Tony Parker for half of one game, slide over to defend their center, defend their interior power forward but also have the ability to defend the 2 guard effectively, all in the same game while logging 45 minutes and being asked to score 30 points per game.
Agree on all counts. LeBron is the best and most complete player the NBA has seen since Jordan. If he was a mean SOB like Jordan, he'd be the best ever. Even given that he basically nice and easy going, he's still in the team photo of the all time greats, just a shade behind Michael.
Quote from: nyg on June 21, 2013, 12:19:12 PM
Who0ps, not Jermaine O'neill, but Rashard Lewis. Both are alike.
When they actually could play, Lewis was a 3-point shooter and O'Neal was an inside player.
Then again, they are both tall and black.
So pretty much, the exact same.
Lebron isn't Jordan, but he's all-time starting 5.
1 - Magic
2 - Jordan
3 - Lebron
4- Duncan
5 - Hakeem
Hakeem????
Quote from: Terror Skink on June 23, 2013, 11:09:05 AM
Hakeem????
Guess he had a better career than Russell, Jabbar, Wilt and Shaq.
Quote from: nyg on June 23, 2013, 12:32:32 PM
Guess he had a better career than Russell, Jabbar, Wilt and Shaq.
I'm hoping he meant Kareem and just misspelled it.
LeBron, Magic and Bird all are/were incredible, not only the individual things they do/did but the way they make/made their teammates better.
Saying one is head and shoulders better than the other doesn't help advance the cause for any. When LeBron's career is finished, he very well could be the best ever, or at least top three. But we're not there yet.
And for those who would give the edge to Jordan just because of the championships, well, I guess that would make Russell the best ever, right?
Quote from: forgetful on June 21, 2013, 04:47:28 PM
Someone else posted about defending Parker, he had an almost completely torn hamstring and he didn't guard him the whole game. When he was on Leonard, Leonard lit him up. They put him on Ginobli and he shot right over him. Lebron gets his reputation as a defender because of flashy blocks...on ball he has poor lateral quickness and players easily take him off the bounce. Watch him every play, poor help defense, poor on the ball defense a few showcase blocks that get you out of your chair...I'd rather have no flash and a shutdown defender.
you are living in a different (and highly delusional) world than the rest of humanity. Come back to us forgetful!
Quote from: forgetful on June 21, 2013, 04:47:28 PM
Someone else posted about defending Parker, he had an almost completely torn hamstring and he didn't guard him the whole game. When he was on Leonard, Leonard lit him up. They put him on Ginobli and he shot right over him. Lebron gets his reputation as a defender because of flashy blocks...on ball he has poor lateral quickness and players easily take him off the bounce. Watch him every play, poor help defense, poor on the ball defense a few showcase blocks that get you out of your chair...I'd rather have no flash and a shutdown defender.
I posted he guarded Parker, he guarded all 5 positions. Just as in the Chicago series he was able to guard Nate and a number of other positions. Very few players have that ability.
He isn't voted to the all defense team by a bunch of morons...in fact his fellow peers also voted him to the team in addition to the writers.
Jordan is the best ever. The eye test says so. It's not just what you can do on the court, but also how you do it. Nobody did it, on the court, like Jordan. That's why we wanted "to be like Mike".