MUScoop

I've put a short video together detailing Marquette's recruitment of Newbill, how the scholarship offer came to fruition, and the school's subsequent decision to go in another direction.  It includes an interview with Stan Laws and DJ related to prep school.  Please let me know if you want to see it.  If the majority vote no then I will not post it on the board.  Thanks.

no.

I thought the lawyers didn't want them doing any interviews. Not trying to be a jerk or anything, just wondering if somethings changed with all that. I wouldn't mind seeing it, just to see what DJ has to say and stuff. I don't know how big of a hassle sending it to someone's inbox would be but if you could inbox it to me I'd appreciate it.

sure, why not

could you send it to mine too, thanks

I'll take a look at it. Put it in my inbox as well. Thanks!

Does it show anything new? Is there anything the video sheds light on that has been causing controversy and debate? If so, I say post it. If not, then I vote no as it will probably just come across as a sob story about how MU pushed this kid out into the cold. Thats the last thing we need, as it seems we are finally starting to move on from this story.

Thanks for the hard work Brad!

The summary does shed some new light on the recruitment.  I discuss the evening Huggins and Monarch were at Villanova to watch DJ play and Marquette's offer that very night.  The interview shows Stan and DJ's fervor for Marquette and their belief he would join the team with no conditions in place.  I can send the video privately to those who want to see it.  I will not post it on MU Scoop.

I would appreciate if you sent me the video. Thanks a lot Brad!

I'd like to see it.

alright send to me, thanks

No...I do not care.

Jamil Wilson is our newest Warrior and I am extremely excited that he has joined our team.  We have an unbelievable roster now and I am so tired of the Newbill story.  He will find another school to play at and land on his feet.  

Would all of the fans on this message board like to continually rehash the Newbill story or discuss the potential of our team in the next few years?  I am so pumped with the teams that MU is going to put on the floor over the next few years.  I actually cannot believe the job that Buzz has done in a very short time.  So happy we have him....

GO MU!

Can i get added to the list?

Sure, why not. 

Thanks Brad.

no

I'll take a look at the interview also.  Curiosity killed the cat, right? 

yeah, send it to me too, please

id like to see it

Can you also sent me the video.

Thanks

rather curious to see it myself

I want to hear what DJ says direct from him.  Please add me to list.

Thanks Brad for sending it over so quickly. 

But nothing new guys, all clips and interviews were from months ago, and only about 30 seconds of the 5 minute video feature DJ and his coach.

I'd like to see it. Thanks.

Thanks Brad.  Not as informative as I thought, but I realize you have restrictions.  If the restrictions ease up, maybe can can get the subsequent interviews. 

i'd like to see it as well

Brad:

I thought I was going to be watching something with the moderator being unbiased. You are "totally biased" and you are feeding the frenzy with this video on the message boards.

How do we know the true interest of West Virginia? How do you know what the offers were from the other schools that you mentioned. There are a lot of teams that offer with strings attached. Prove the substantial offers.

You never asked either of the gentlemen if Marquette discussed prep school with him under certain circumstances, yet you claim that in the video. Yes, he was not planning on going to prep school. They discussed his ACADEMICS not being a problem. SAT, clearinghouse process, and at the time he did this interview I'm sure he and Marquette planned on him attending Marquette. No one has ever claimed that his grades were an issue, did they? That's all he and his coach discussed in your short video clip.............no prep school because of academics.

This biased video did nothing for me. I would like to know much more. If these "substantiated offers" that were so close to home were so good, why didn't he stay close to home to begin with?

I have watched Buzz closely for the two years he has been here. He is real and he is "almost to a fault" super honest. I'm not saying Marquette isn't somehow in the wrong, but it is going to take a lot more than that biased, one-sided video to make me think that Marquette is totally at fault here.

Thanks for your efforts though, Brad.

Yep thanks Brad for sending it to trolls posing as MU fans...

I can understand a little where your coming from..but your really going out of your way to stir the pot in a way that suits you.
Good luck to  you in your future.

Of course, yes.

What are we, going to bury our heads in the sand forever?  Why is everyone so afraid, I don't know, to hear the OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY?

I'd like to see it.  Please send link.

MUUWUWM, I suggest you try spell check before submitting a post.  Also, with all due respect, calling someone an idiot is unnecessary.  I have an opinion based on several factors, and I am entitled to that opinion.  I don't begrudge those who stand behind Buzz just as firmly now as they did before this incident.  I happen to think he should have called DJ and his family to break the news.  That didn't happen.  

If I could conduct the interviews with Stan and DJ now I most certainly would do so.  Once the process of finding another school is completed they will talk to me on camera.  I have contact with them on a daily basis.  If you don't like the video, don't watch it.

Gee I dunno....as Hoops pointed out...totally one sided and seeing as the MU coaching staff can't really comment anymore it is totally self serving to one person's point of view.

Covered old ground and nothing is substantiated. But lets keep throwing coals on the fire.

Sorry Brad, I can have an opinion and mine [hasn't changed]. I understand that you have an agenda I just don't agree with it anymore.

I'd like it privately if you are doing that

Can we avoid the personal attacks.


Yes, the coaches comments aren't included here and that should be duly noted.  In fact, if I were Brad I would put that in the video that the coaches cannot by NCAA rules comment.   On the flip side, if we didn't take this action at all, then this wouldn't have happened.

Probably the biggest lesson in all of this is don't offer a scholarship in the future unless we plan on honoring it.  None of this "maybe", "halfway", "conditional", etc, etc.  If you offer a scholarship and the kid takes it (plus you publicly take the NLI, rave about the kid, etc, etc) then we better be ready to honor it and not play games.  Do that, and these things don't come up.

Ok....if this interview was taken before any of  this started....why are they talking about PREP SCHOOL?  Who evers brings this up if he has an offer to MU?....Maybe that was a condition and MR. Brad doesn't know the whole story but feels he has to be the knight in shining armor.
Seems to me that this slice and dice tape is to show only one side...why the agenda?

What kind of professional broadcaster are you?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 05, 2010, 08:58:53 PM
Probably the biggest lesson in all of this is don't offer a scholarship in the future unless we plan on honoring it.  None of this "maybe", "halfway", "conditional", etc, etc.  If you offer a scholarship and the kid takes it (plus you publicly take the NLI, rave about the kid, etc, etc) then we better be ready to honor it and not play games.  Do that, and these things don't come up.

Bingo.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 05, 2010, 08:58:53 PM
Probably the biggest lesson in all of this is don't offer a scholarship in the future unless we plan on honoring it.  None of this "maybe", "halfway", "conditional", etc, etc.  If you offer a scholarship and the kid takes it (plus you publicly take the NLI, rave about the kid, etc, etc) then we better be ready to honor it and not play games.  Do that, and these things don't come up.

I don't think anybody disagrees with this.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 05, 2010, 08:58:53 PM
Probably the biggest lesson in all of this is don't offer a scholarship in the future unless we plan on honoring it.  None of this "maybe", "halfway", "conditional", etc, etc.  If you offer a scholarship and the kid takes it (plus you publicly take the NLI, rave about the kid, etc, etc) then we better be ready to honor it and not play games.  Do that, and these things don't come up.

Because, remember, scholarships are awarded on a one-year basis.

I'd agree with that but let's also consider that letting players go after one-year will eventually affect the graduation rate (forgot the term) which may adversely affect the # of scholarships and the program in the future.

Then again, this all goes back to how much faith you have in a 16-17 y.o. kid and their ability to contribute over 4 years - on the court and in the classroom.

Never an exact science, thus it can get messy - like now.

Quote from: MUUWUWM on July 05, 2010, 09:09:07 PM
Ok....if this interview was taken before any of  this started....why are they talking about PREP SCHOOL?  Who evers brings this up if he has an offer to MU?....Maybe that was a condition and MR. Brad doesn't know the whole story but feels he has to be the knight in shining armor.
Seems to me that this slice and dice tape is to show only one side...why the agenda?

What kind of professional broadcaster are you?

I'm guessing because of all the rumors going around that someone "may" go to Prep school, in fact Buzz and staff were saying that at the BBQ and prior according to reports here and elsewhere.  Only problem is, was this ever communicated clearly to this kid, his family and his coaches?  Maybe, maybe not.  Sure doesn't seem so.

I still question the logic in all this and have from day one.  If the kid has an offer from another Big East school (Rosiak says he did from West Virginia), why in the hell would we sign a NLI with Marquette if all these supposed conditions were applied to the MU offer?  Why would you do this?  Why would ANYONE do this?  Can someone explain this to me?  It's a fair question and would go a LONG way to getting me over to the MU side on this.

UNLESS

1)  There weren't any conditions ever put on the offer to Newbill
2)  There were conditions, but they were downplayed so much as to make it seem virtually impossible they would ever be executed
3)  There were conditions but were so poorly communicated that the Newbill party didn't understand or properly vet them
4)  The Newbill camp was so in love with MU, so in love with Buzz, so in love with Milwaukee that it didn't matter what conditions existed, they were signing with MU and rolling the dice even thought they had other offers, including a Big East top 4 team

MUUWM, I asked the question back then because speculation was already running rampant on the boards about DJ going to prep school.  I simply asked DJ and his coach to quell that rumor.  They never discussed prep school as an option.  Period.  If DJ should happen to go to prep school in the future, it's because it's now late in the game and much tougher to find a squad with availability. Offers are out there and DJ is mulling them over.  I hope he finds a new home.  If not, I am sure it will happen next year.  The kid is a solid player.  He may not be a blue chip prospect, but he's certainly a D1 caliber player.

Brad,

I'd like to see the video if its possible, thanks a lot.

Could you send me that video? Thanks.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 05, 2010, 08:37:47 PM
Of course, yes.

What are we, going to bury our heads in the sand forever?  Why is everyone so afraid, I don't know, to hear the OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY?

With all due respect, Chico's, nearly all we've heard is DJ Newbill's/his coach's side of the story.
Thanks to NCAA rules - and I'd like to think the common sense of knowing no good ever will come of it - Marquette must remain silent on this issue.
If you wanted THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY, you should be clamoring for MU's version, not Stan Laws'.

Mark me down as someone interested in hearing both sides of the story.  Please send me the link.

Personally, I'd rather see it posted instead of this strange vote.  Watch it, don't watch it.  Just like any other video.

Just post it...

Quote from: Pakuni on July 05, 2010, 09:37:27 PM
With all due respect, Chico's, nearly all we've heard is DJ Newbill's/his coach's side of the story.
Thanks to NCAA rules - and I'd like to think the common sense of knowing no good ever will come of it - Marquette must remain silent on this issue.
If you wanted THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY, you should be clamoring for MU's version, not Stan Laws'.

Erm, I don't know. Sure seems like a lot of MU fans are taking the version IWB posted as MU's "official" story. He's deeply connected. At one time, had his livelihood depend on keeping good relations with the staff. And in the post has carried the water for the department when there have been sticky situations.

I think both sides of the story are out there and anyone acting as if MU is somehow wronged by not being able to comment is feigning the drama. 

Its posted on the Badger Scout board if you want to see it.

Just post it on here Brad.  You have the green light of MUSCOOP moderator MU_Hilltopper. It's water over the dam.  I feel bad for DJ Newbill and wish it didn't happen.  But it did and life goes on.

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on July 05, 2010, 09:19:23 PM
Because, remember, scholarships are awarded on a one-year basis.

I'd agree with that but let's also consider that letting players go after one-year will eventually affect the graduation rate (forgot the term) which may adversely affect the # of scholarships and the program in the future.

Then again, this all goes back to how much faith you have in a 16-17 y.o. kid and their ability to contribute over 4 years - on the court and in the classroom.

Never an exact science, thus it can get messy - like now.

You're referencing the APR.  The thing with the APR and how it works is that the kid needs to finish the semester \ quarters that he is enrolled in at the origin school.

I believe transfers no longer cause a penalty if they finish properly.  The old formula it did hurt, but I think that changed.  According to the Stanford University website, a student athlete can transfer without APR penalty assuming they complete the year in good standing.

Someone can correct me if this is wrong.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 05, 2010, 08:58:53 PM
Can we avoid the personal attacks.


Yes, the coaches comments aren't included here and that should be duly noted.  In fact, if I were Brad I would put that in the video that the coaches cannot by NCAA rules comment.   On the flip side, if we didn't take this action at all, then this wouldn't have happened.

Probably the biggest lesson in all of this is don't offer a scholarship in the future unless we plan on honoring it.  None of this "maybe", "halfway", "conditional", etc, etc.  If you offer a scholarship and the kid takes it (plus you publicly take the NLI, rave about the kid, etc, etc) then we better be ready to honor it and not play games.  Do that, and these things don't come up.

Among other things....

In previous posts you have accused Buzz Williams and MU of ruining DJ Newbill's life. You have equated being skeptical of Stan Law's account with calling him Adolph Hitler. And you have characterized anyone that finds IWB's account of the events plausible as kool aid swilling Jim Jonesean morons. Oh, and you've insinuated that as such those people are inferior Catholics to you.

Good to see you calling for an end to "personal attacks". Hope you plan to follow your own advice.

Can I ask, what was this hoping to accomplish? Because it sure as hell didn't shed any more light on the situation. Just seemed to me like the ramblings of a guy in his den, not some journalistic report.

Seems to me you could have read Brad and Chicos posts from here over some highlights and it would have been the same thing.

Damn, I picked a bad week to stop sniffing glue.

if you could PM it to me that'd be great,

thanks

Quote from: Pakuni on July 05, 2010, 09:37:27 PM
With all due respect, Chico's, nearly all we've heard is DJ Newbill's/his coach's side of the story.
Thanks to NCAA rules - and I'd like to think the common sense of knowing no good ever will come of it - Marquette must remain silent on this issue.
If you wanted THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY, you should be clamoring for MU's version, not Stan Laws'.

I think Brad is going to add that type of disclaimer to the video.

Let's not be naive here, MU can get their view out via proxy and has already attempted to do so with various people.

I've asked several questions which others have as well (and received a ton of emails from MU fans confirming those same questions).   It seems to me that those proxies could answer those questions publicly on these forums or elsewhere without MU officially answering it.  That's how the PR game is played nowadays for these things.

There are about 3 to 4 critical questions that have been asked in the last few days for which there have not been any answers.  It would go a long way to get those answered in a credible fashion.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 05, 2010, 10:01:28 PM
Among other things....

In previous posts you have accused Buzz Williams and MU of ruining DJ Newbill's life. You have equated being skeptical of Stan Law's account with calling him Adolph Hitler. And you have characterized anyone that finds IWB's account of the events plausible as kool aid swilling Jim Jonesean morons. Oh, and you've insinuated that as such those people are inferior Catholics to you.

Good to see you calling for an end to "personal attacks". Hope you plan to follow your own advice.

Nice straw man.  Try again, and this time use your commons sense filter as well as the sarcasm filter I clearly used in my notes (and noted explicitly as such).   Then let's try it again.

Thanks for the video Brad. The only thing I have a problem with is you seem to be arguing providing an argument for Phillycoach and Newbill more than actually reporting something. I'm thinking that rubs people the wrong way. Being an MU fan on an MU site skews my view of it I'm sure, but you are kind of making this video for MU fans on an MU site, so it might be tough for us to buy into that type of reporting.

You might have gotten an answer to this already, but one of the biggest questions I have outside of the application is what was Coach Laws role in his recruitment? IWB makes it sound limited and you and him make it sound pretty extensive. I was just wondering what role he played in this since he seems to be a major source of information.

Quote from: MUfan12 on July 05, 2010, 10:04:07 PM
Can I ask, what was this hoping to accomplish? Because it sure as hell didn't shed any more light on the situation. Just seemed to me like the ramblings of a guy in his den, not some journalistic report.

Seems to me you could have read Brad and Chicos posts from here over some highlights and it would have been the same thing.

Disagree, only because it's better to see and hear the actual words from people then reading them in black and white.   When people read text, there is no emotion, no context, nothing to put true meaning behind intent.  That's always the problem with the written word.

Case in point is Lenny not being able to decipher sarcasm from my post, but if I were posting it in video \ audio format, it would clearly come across that way.

As for the style, Mr. Forester's chosen format is very popular in the online space, blogosphere, etc.  It's all many of these videos are done now.  Yes, he could have taken himself out of the video entirely, but it seems he wanted to personalize and tell his point of view. 

This whole thing is a little weird.  The timing - Brad and Philly Coach basically arrive at the same time on Scoop, and start posting about how good DJ is going to be, how he's fully qualified, how the NLI is a binding contract, etc.  At minimum, I find it VERY hard to believe that the Newbill camp just found out (june 29) about his scholarship/arrival at MU not being honored..I'm convinced they knew something at the end of May, if not sooner...and that also makes sense as to why the MU application was never sent in.  It is just very bizarre that Philly Coach begin posting on the MUScoop board - when has their ever been another recruit's coach..start to post on MUScoop??  Has it ever happened? 

As I posted previously..if DJ is a High Major talent right now..he'll get an offer from a high-major program.  If he doesn't get a high-major offer, it is reflective of how he's viewed by the college basketball community.  Just as UW created a spot for Brust, and MU with Wilson...a school would do the same with DJ if he's a high-major player right now.

My guess will be that he'll either get a mid-major offer, or go to prep to try to increase his stock to get a high-major offer. 

Quote from: MUUWUWM on July 05, 2010, 09:52:07 PM
Its posted on the Badger Scout board if you want to see it.

Or the jsonline golden eagles blog comments section

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on July 05, 2010, 10:04:32 PM
Damn, I picked a bad week to stop sniffing glue.

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/654c7721e2/i-picked-the-wrong-week-to-quit-from-airplanefan

Quote from: Ners on July 05, 2010, 10:34:44 PM
This whole thing is a little weird.  The timing - Brad and Philly Coach basically arrive at the same time on Scoop, and start posting about how good DJ is going to be, how he's fully qualified, how the NLI is a binding contract, etc.  

Forester first signed up in November of 2008 to this site, hardly just in the last few months

Go back and read his posts, very complementary of Buzz Williams, etc. 

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?action=profile;u=2332;sa=showPosts;start=50

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 05, 2010, 10:46:31 PM
Forester first signed up in November of 2008 to this site, hardly just in the last few months

Go back and read his posts, very complementary of Buzz Williams, etc. 

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?action=profile;u=2332;sa=showPosts;start=50

I was aware Brad had posted here for awhile - but it was the tag team efforts/timing of Philly Coach and Brad's videos that I felt was a bit peculiar.  I don't have a beef with Brad - but will say that he just as easily could be being used by the Newbill camp...as anything else..in a PR and propoganda game intended to try to back Buzz into a corner and make him honor the Newbill offer.  As I've said..I hope we don't get ourselves into a situation like this again, and that Buzz learn that making even conditional offers/etc..gets to be a slippery slope.  I have no doubt that Buzz/MU let DJ know at some time along the way that prep school could be an option...but once it became a reality..my guess is the Newbills wanted to see what other offers DJ could get at this time and asked for an outright release...so DJ would be free to be recruited by any other school (if he does decided to go the prep school route.)

Brad, I'd like to see the video. Thanks

Quote from: Ners on July 05, 2010, 10:34:44 PM
This whole thing is a little weird.  The timing - Brad and Philly Coach basically arrive at the same time on Scoop, and start posting about how good DJ is going to be, how he's fully qualified, how the NLI is a binding contract, etc.  At minimum, I find it VERY hard to believe that the Newbill camp just found out (june 29) about his scholarship/arrival at MU not being honored..I'm convinced they knew something at the end of May, if not sooner...and that also makes sense as to why the MU application was never sent in.  It is just very bizarre that Philly Coach begin posting on the MUScoop board - when has their ever been another recruit's coach..start to post on MUScoop??  Has it ever happened?  

As I posted previously..if DJ is a High Major talent right now..he'll get an offer from a high-major program.  If he doesn't get a high-major offer, it is reflective of how he's viewed by the college basketball community.  Just as UW created a spot for Brust, and MU with Wilson...a school would do the same with DJ if he's a high-major player right now.

My guess will be that he'll either get a mid-major offer, or go to prep to try to increase his stock to get a high-major offer.  

Agree 100% that this is curious. We have known for weeks (months?) that one of the signees wasn't coming (at least this year). And Buzz says the player knows it too. Who is the most logical candidate to need a year of prep school? JC 1st team AA, top 50 guy, top 100 guy, top 125 guy or a (maybe) top 500 guy? In addition, the maybe top 500 guy hasn't even applied to school and knows nothing about IWB's summer league or his own plans for summer school. Along come Philly Coach and Brad Forester to initially tell us DJ's not the guy and then to express (feign?) shock when it turns out he is. Doesn't pass the smell test.

All that said, I too hope Buzz has learned his lesson about "conditional" LOIs. Allow a verbal but don't let anyone sign anything unless MU is 100% sure on the player.

I'd like to see that video as well.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 05, 2010, 09:19:49 PM
I'm guessing because of all the rumors going around that someone "may" go to Prep school, in fact Buzz and staff were saying that at the BBQ and prior according to reports here and elsewhere.  Only problem is, was this ever communicated clearly to this kid, his family and his coaches?  Maybe, maybe not.  Sure doesn't seem so.

I still question the logic in all this and have from day one.  If the kid has an offer from another Big East school (Rosiak says he did from West Virginia), why in the hell would we sign a NLI with Marquette if all these supposed conditions were applied to the MU offer?  Why would you do this?  Why would ANYONE do this?  Can someone explain this to me?  It's a fair question and would go a LONG way to getting me over to the MU side on this.

UNLESS

1)  There weren't any conditions ever put on the offer to Newbill
2)  There were conditions, but they were downplayed so much as to make it seem virtually impossible they would ever be executed
3)  There were conditions but were so poorly communicated that the Newbill party didn't understand or properly vet them
4)  The Newbill camp was so in love with MU, so in love with Buzz, so in love with Milwaukee that it didn't matter what conditions existed, they were signing with MU and rolling the dice even thought they had other offers, including a Big East top 4 team

5) His WV offer also came with conditions, perhaps stronger conditions than Buzz's.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 05, 2010, 10:01:16 PM
You're referencing the APR.  The thing with the APR and how it works is that the kid needs to finish the semester \ quarters that he is enrolled in at the origin school.

I believe transfers no longer cause a penalty if they finish properly.  The old formula it did hurt, but I think that changed.  According to the Stanford University website, a student athlete can transfer without APR penalty assuming they complete the year in good standing.

Someone can correct me if this is wrong.

You may be right, as the NCAA has revised the implementation of the APR:

"Because of various adjustments in the rate, including an accommodation for student-athletes who leave school eligible to become professional in their chosen sport, and a more far-reaching change allowing student-athletes with a grade-point average of 2.6 or higher to transfer without costing their team an APR point, the meaning of the penalty benchmarks in relation to projected graduation rates may have changed."


More on the professional "penalty":
"The presidents at their August 4 meeting in Indianapolis adopted a recommendation from the Division I Committee on Academic Performance (CAP) that adjusts student-athletes' APR calculations in such cases as 1-for-1 instead of 1-for-2." ...as long as the student-athlete has maintained good academic standing.

"At issue is whether student-athletes are transferring for legitimate reasons, rather than being "run off" by the coach for athletics under-achievement. Because the latter is something the Board has expressed an interest in curbing, the presidents decided to tread lightly on the idea of providing an APR adjustment for that cohort.

Among other CAP recommendations the Board approved was an APR adjustment that rewards institutions for student-athletes who return to complete their degrees after having left school. Such graduates would earn the institution a "1-for-0" bonus point in the APR calculation for that particular team. The bonus in effect restores the retention point lost when the student-athlete left the institution; however, if the student-athlete had been awarded the 1-for-1 adjustment previously noted, the institution would in effect gain an additional bonus."

More on the transfer with a 2.6 gpa:

"The (2008) proposal would allow institutions to discount the retention point in the APR formula for transfer student-athletes who immediately enroll in another four-year institution, earn the eligibility point and carry a cumulative grade-point average of 2.6 or higher. The student-athlete must have attended the initial institution for at least one academic year. The change would be effective with the 2007-08 cohort, which will be collected in fall 2008 and not be retroactive."

Unfortunately, this may affect future recruiting by Buzz and Co. as the NCAA sees a trend among two-year transfers: APR and graduation-rate data show that two-year transfers are less likely to be academically successful and ultimately graduate than any other cohort.

"One of the ideas on the table is a "year in academic readiness" that would require two-year transfers with a certain academic profile to sit out a year of competition to focus on academics. Members of the two-year college community have floated the idea that the year be spent at their institutions. This idea and others are among those that will be more fully vetted in the coming months. The cabinet is continuing to work with officials from two-year institutions and their athletics organizations to address the issue."

Of course, none of these now apply to Newbill. But if he was on the team...

And the video isn't posted here yet because... why?

Btw, post here if you'd like to read my next post.  I'd post it but I don't know if everyone wants to read it.  I'll PM it to you.

Might as well post the video.

If that's impossible, I'd like to see the video too please.

it's on fucking utube, why is everyone begging this guy to send it to them?  to stroke this guy's ego more?

He can blame it on me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbrwWoKg9kI

Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on July 06, 2010, 09:48:31 AM
it's on fracking utube, why is everyone begging this guy to send it to them?  to stroke this guy's ego more?

Can you send me the link to this post?

Good grief! Me thinks thou doth protest too much.

You are qualified, and good to go at MU, right? No chance of Prep school, right? You held your own against the guys at MU, right? If there is no doubt, why on earth are these questions even being asked, and responded too so vehemently? If you have all these comparable offers, why is this situation even a big deal? Monarch and Huggins were at one of his games the night before they had games of their own, as if it is somehow unusual that a coach would travel to see a player during their season. Its probably also just a coincidence that Aaron Brown who just committed to WVU today, also happened to play in that tournament at Villanova (probably among others WVU had interest in. I assume the recruiting geeks could shed some light on that). IF WVU wants you so bad, give Coach Drinky a call, and I'm sure he'll find a way.

My BS detector has been on overdrive, based on both the content and timing of comments by he and the the coach who was fired for being too successful started commenting mere moments before this news came out the other day. This video, moved their credibility from thin ice, into the freezing cold water.

DJ Newbill has an attorney who has advised against any further comment on the matter, but I think I will throw together a propaganda video and throw it out on Youtube anyway. There are so many hols in this guys version of things, its pathetic.

These guys are members of college basketball's wannabe class, that have and continue to try to use DJ Newbill and this situation to advance themselves.

I had held out some thought that maybe Buzz and Co. carried a small amount of fault in this situation, and may have done wrong by the kid a little bit, but ironically enough, the words and actions of the Newbill camp have convinced me otherwise. As far as I am concerned, Buzz can hold his head high, as these guys are embarrassing themselves, not MU. Never mind the talent levels of the players involved, I have no doubt MU is better off because of this decision.

+ infinity, Navin!

What a self serving, pile of garbage.

I'd like to know where your hard on for Newbill came from anyway?

Was is it just because you are in Philly too, and what I don't understand is why would you ask all these questions about academics and prep school months ago. It was like you were preparing your attack if something like this happened. What do you gain personally from this witch hunt you are on?

I guess Brad is a bigger DJ Newbill fan than an MU fan.

Was expecting to see "journalism" but got an editorial/infomercial instead. I'm with Navin - looking more and more like a set up from the word go.

glad we have MU alums (chico and forster) who are out to make MU look as bad as possible and drag this on as long as possible...

we need these guys as fans like we need the lunatics from the badger boards...

look - you don't know crap about the MU side of the argument - why keep hammering MU?

I am not a fan about the over-signing in college basketball, but the way you guys are dragging this out and hammering MU, you would think that Buzz shot the pope..

get over it already...

Quote from: wyoMUfan on July 06, 2010, 10:43:09 AM
What a self serving, pile of garbage.

I'd like to know where your hard on for Newbill came from anyway?

Was is it just because you are in Philly too, and what I don't understand is why would you ask all these questions about academics and prep school months ago. It was like you were preparing your attack if something like this happened. What do you gain personally from this witch hunt you are on?

I guess Brad is a bigger DJ Newbill fan than an MU fan.

you hit on the head - this makes it look like the Newbill camp was planning for this possible outcome from very early on...

The video is giving more credibility to Buzz - thanks!

The more that comes out regarding this the better MU looks.

It was fishy at the beginning but after more and more details emerge it honestly is making MU look better.

Here's to the whine train (Laws and forster) leaving town and never looking back.

DJ will get his education paid for and play DI ball somewhere.....everyone needs to let it go.

I don't say MU is perfectly clean, but I'll agree with others that the more we hear from Forster and Laws, the less I blame MU.  Please guys, help DJ find the best new home possible - moving forward, it's being a good kid and a good ball player that will help him find a new home, not having his own personal publicists - this kind of circus will only hurt his chances.

I agree.  The video seems to be quite self-serving, or at the very least appears to come off that way given given the author's single-sided viewpoint.   I understand BF got burned by MU after he had put in a great deal of work touting this kid, but seriously, this video is a real turd. 

Quote from: wyoMUfan on July 06, 2010, 10:43:09 AM
What a self serving, pile of garbage.

I'd like to know where your hard on for Newbill came from anyway?

Was is it just because you are in Philly too, and what I don't understand is why would you ask all these questions about academics and prep school months ago. It was like you were preparing your attack if something like this happened. What do you gain personally from this witch hunt you are on?

I guess Brad is a bigger DJ Newbill fan than an MU fan.

I'm not going to watch the video because I have zero interest in watching it, but Jesus Christ, overreact much? Where did your hard on for being an a$shole come from?

This board is getting less worthwhile to read by the day.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on July 06, 2010, 10:11:46 AM
Good grief! Me thinks thou doth protest too much.

You are qualified, and good to go at MU, right? No chance of Prep school, right? You held your own against the guys at MU, right? If there is no doubt, why on earth are these questions even being asked, and responded too so vehemently? If you have all these comparable offers, why is this situation even a big deal? Monarch and Huggins were at one of his games the night before they had games of their own, as if it is somehow unusual that a coach would travel to see a player during their season. Its probably also just a coincidence that Aaron Brown who just committed to WVU today, also happened to play in that tournament at Villanova (probably among others WVU had interest in. I assume the recruiting geeks could shed some light on that). IF WVU wants you so bad, give Coach Drinky a call, and I'm sure he'll find a way.

My BS detector has been on overdrive, based on both the content and timing of comments by he and the the coach who was fired for being too successful started commenting mere moments before this news came out the other day. This video, moved their credibility from thin ice, into the freezing cold water.

DJ Newbill has an attorney who has advised against any further comment on the matter, but I think I will throw together a propaganda video and throw it out on Youtube anyway. There are so many hols in this guys version of things, its pathetic.

These guys are members of college basketball's wannabe class, that have and continue to try to use DJ Newbill and this situation to advance themselves.

I had held out some thought that maybe Buzz and Co. carried a small amount of fault in this situation, and may have done wrong by the kid a little bit, but ironically enough, the words and actions of the Newbill camp have convinced me otherwise. As far as I am concerned, Buzz can hold his head high, as these guys are embarrassing themselves, not MU. Never mind the talent levels of the players involved, I have no doubt MU is better off because of this decision.

100% agree, Narvin.  The timing of all the first video is suspicious.  I think all the DJ camp wanted us MU fans to do is buy into how much he could have meant for MU.

Quote from: warrior07 on July 06, 2010, 11:33:19 AM
I'm not going to watch the video because I have zero interest in watching it, but Jesus Christ, overreact much? Where did your hard on for being an a$shole come from?

This board is getting less worthwhile to read by the day.

I wouldn't say my response was an overreaction at all. Someone going and making a video about the whole thing in their spare time would be considered an over reaction.

Furthermore, I haven't uttered a peep about the whole thing because I also don't really care. I'm glad Jamil is on the team.

If you haven't watched the video you shouldn't be commenting on this thread...about the video.

Does anyone else thing the video sounds like an episode of Dragnet?

Quote from: wyoMUfan on July 06, 2010, 11:36:23 AM
I wouldn't say my response was an overreaction at all. Someone going and making a video about the whole thing in their spare time would be considered an over reaction.

Furthermore, I haven't uttered a peep about the whole thing because I also don't really care. I'm glad Jamil is on the team.

If you haven't watched the video you shouldn't be commenting on this thread...about the video.

I am commenting on your prick-ish comments, dumba$$. Congrats for being a big man taking on a Marquette journalism student with an interest in the basketball program. You must feel like a tough guy sitting behind your anonymous screen name b!tching that a Marquette student is a "self serving, pile of garbage."

Go F yourself.

Quote from: warrior07 on July 06, 2010, 11:33:19 AM
I'm not going to watch the video because I have zero interest in watching it, but Jesus Christ, overreact much? Where did your hard on for being an a$shole come from?

This board is getting less worthwhile to read by the day.

So you didn't read the book but take issue with the review of someone who did. Interesting.

wow.

anonymous, lots of people on this board know who I am.
I said the video was a self serving pile of garbage, I don't know Brad and wouldn't assume to call him such a thing.
If he is an MU grad then it would be a safe bet that he isn't yet rather a nice guy.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 06, 2010, 11:43:26 AM
So you didn't read the book but take issue with the review of someone who did. Interesting.

I take issue with calling a known Marquette student "a self serving, pile of garbage". Absolutely. And I disagree with his take on Newbill. But I find it disgusting to see a student attacked on this board like that.

The commentary on this recruitment has turned into a man version of Days of Our Lives.   The estrogen level is getting too high.

"what a self serving pile of garbage"

It does sound like i was attacking brad, not his video. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

I'm interested in a link to the video. Thanks

page3

Brad is not a current student. (unless he is taking online classes from Philly at the age of about 45).

Get yo facts straight warrior07.  Lay off the salvia.

yeah this isn't MUSCOOPS favorite Journalism  - Broadcast student Brad Gali were talking about homie...
It is an old dude from Philly.

Ok, well, that's a little less bad. Yes, I thought you were attacking the kid who always posts videos from MUTV.

Still, I would think calling an alum a self serving piece of garbage is beyond the pale even for a message board.

Quote from: Stone Cold on July 06, 2010, 11:46:41 AM
The commentary on this recruitment has turned into a man version of Days of Our Lives.   The estrogen level is getting too high.

Post of the day.

can someone post a link?....it appears the link that has been referred to is no longer any good.  Not a real big deal...bottom line is a marginal player got "cut"  happens in sports every day.  this is no longer tee-ball.  The argument appears to be based on whether Mu told DJ whether or not or when he might get cut....but never the less he got cut for a far superior player.  Not sure why all the outrage from all the mamby pambies.

nevertheless after reading all these posts i would like to see the video. 

Quote from: Canadian Dimes on July 06, 2010, 12:08:07 PM
can someone post a link?....it appears the link that has been referred to is no longer any good.  

It has been removed. Weak a$$ sauce! Kinda says it all, doesn't it?

Surely if DJ did not have a conditional offer and was to arrive at MU this week.....

He had to cancel and get refunded an airline reservation......

Bet we will never see that......

But I guess he was going to take a bus at the last minute....Right?????

Or you were going to drive him.....and do a "basketball vacation" movie.....(co-starring Cheve Chase....LOL!)

This video is a self serving piece of "crap" otherwise known as "spin" or "propaganda".....

If it's supposedly all accurate, and was filmed before this all went down, then why take it down?

Something's not adding up.

Maybe he is at the gym with stan laws grabbing some more footage (from back in the spring) to add and increase credibility... ;)

Quote from: MUfan12 on July 06, 2010, 12:18:14 PM
Something's not adding up.

Ya think? Let me save Brad the trouble of creating an explanation...

"I got a call from the Newbill Family's attorney, asking me to remove the video, even though everything in it was true, blah, blah, blah..."

Lol.  I am amused to say the least with the comments stemming from the video.  I have a feeling if I walked on campus right now I may meet an untimely demise by stoning or something far worse.  I am equally amused by this talk of a personal agenda.  For the umpteenth time, I simply wanted to provide a feature on an incoming recruit.  Heck, I did one for the Duke fans on Kyrie Irving.  I have no affiliation with Duke.  I haven't even been to the campus.

I am just as ardent a follower of the MU basketball program as any of you.  I called the games during my time on campus and worked closely with the basketball team during the Mike Deane tenure.  I attended games last year when I moved to the East coast.  I haven't missed a game on TV in forever.  

As I spent time with Stan, DJ, and others associated with them I developed a rapport with the group and ultimately a friendship. When I heard Buzz Williams hadn't so much as called DJ and his family to break the news of Marquette's plans to move forward without DJ, I felt disappointed.  This is a man who continually speaks of high morals and ethical standards.  His actions in this instance didn't match the words nor the passion with which he delivers them.    

On a side note, I asked DJ and Stan before a BB tournament on June 11th (not even a month ago) about the prep school topic because speculation was already running rampant on this board.  I felt compelled to ask if they knew anything about it.  They both said prep school had never been discussed.  They were fervent about DJ joining the Marquette BB team.  

If the folks on MU Scoop want to castigate me for putting an opinion piece together based on my own research and feelings about the situation, that's your right.  I certainly won't take the name calling personally because I knew an overwhelmingly vitriolic response was a distinct possibility by offering a different point of view.

The video has been removed because I'm adding a disclaimer to the end based on a suggestion by Chicos.   

Quote from: bradforster on July 06, 2010, 12:56:00 PM
If the folks on MU Scoop want to castigate me for putting an opinion piece together based on my own research and feelings about the situation, that's your right.  I certainly won't take the name calling personally because I knew an overwhelmingly vitriolic response was a distinct possibility by offering a different point of view.

Brad:

  Not everyone is against you.  I applaud your search for the truth.  Hopefully the full truth will come out one day.  I hope the truth does not put Buzz in a bad light, but I fear it will.  Either way, I will respect the facts not ignore them.

Why are people blaming Brad, myself, and others for bringing down MU?  Good grief, this sounds like what happens in the political world today....when in doubt, discredit the messenger.  Or calling their employer, try to get them fired (Brad, trust me...it's happened before, that's how ridiculous some of this stuff is for some people...CURA PERSONALIS)

Here's a newsflash folks, if MU PUT THEMSELVES IN THIS POSITION, not Brad Forester.  Not anyone else on this board.

All this guy has done is provide their side of the story, and he's the evil person for doing this?  What the heck has happened to some of you?  I always thought MU taught us to pursue the truth. Doesn't that journey include BOTH SIDES OF THE STORY?   As many have stated, more than likely the truth is somewhere in between what we have heard from both sides, but don't kill the messenger(s) for simply bringing up another point of view.

And finally, this absolute horsecrap from sone accusing others on this board being anti-MU, or wanting it's destruction, etc, is so totally unfair and ridiculous on all levels.  A lot of people here have worked their tails off to promote MU in a positive light over the years through their business contacts, marketing, etc.  That's what alums do.   But you know what, alums also care about the Marquette BRAND, care about how things are done and how the university is perceived.  And if standing up for those beliefs means a bunch of people who don't give a crap about those things will do nothing but attack others, threaten them with job losses, etc, etc....well, it's gone way too far!

I don't buy that the only reason prep school was brought up was because people on THIS message board had started talking about it. People on here like to assume things and if that warrants questioning about a certain subject, well you know what they say about those that assume...

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 06, 2010, 01:13:26 PM
Why are people blaming Brad, myself, and others for bringing down MU?  Good grief, this sounds like what happens in the political world today....when in doubt, discredit the messenger.  Or calling their employer, try to get them fired (Brad, trust me...it's happened before, that's how ridiculous some of this stuff is for some people...CURA PERSONALIS)

Here's a newsflash folks, if MU PUT THEMSELVES IN THIS POSITION, not Brad Forester.  Not anyone else on this board.

All this guy has done is provide their side of the story, and he's the evil person for doing this?  What the heck has happened to some of you?  I always thought MU taught us to pursue the truth. Doesn't that journey include BOTH SIDES OF THE STORY?   As many have stated, more than likely the truth is somewhere in between what we have heard from both sides, but don't kill the messenger(s) for simply bringing up another point of view.

And finally, this absolute horsecrap from sone accusing others on this board being anti-MU, or wanting it's destruction, etc, is so totally unfair and ridiculous on all levels.  A lot of people here have worked their tails off to promote MU in a positive light over the years through their business contacts, marketing, etc.  That's what alums do.   But you know what, alums also care about the Marquette BRAND, care about how things are done and how the university is perceived.  And if standing up for those beliefs means a bunch of people who don't give a crap about those things will do nothing but attack others, threaten them with job losses, etc, etc....well, it's gone way too far!

+1000

The extent to which people are bending, twisting, and outright maligning, to fulfill their own prejudices is really stunning.   

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on July 06, 2010, 01:56:34 PM
+1000

The extent to which people are bending, twisting, and outright maligning, to fulfill their own prejudices is really stunning.

This is supposed to be teal right?  Because that comment in response to that particular post might be the best use of sarcasm I've ever seen on this board.

something disappeared. So I guess Personal attacks on people that are challenging Buzz and MU are ok but personal 'attacks' on people that Defend MU are Buzz are just completely unacceptable?

I'll at least give warrior07 credit. most of MUscoop has become a bunch of unhinged retarded fucking fanboys and most of the bullshit on this board isn't worth reading anymore.

Quote from: Litehouse on July 06, 2010, 02:12:25 PM
This is supposed to be teal right?  Because that comment in response to that particular post might be the best use of sarcasm I've ever seen on this board.

+1 times how many ever 0s I can type before the 0 key on my keyboard falls off due to excessive use.

Hilltopper, does your statement also include those who have come to this board with a clear agenda to malign MU because things didn't work out for former player/filming subject? Or should those of us that have great doubt in this story just roll over and let the crazies run wild as they have on this board relatively unchecked for the last week spewing whatever claims they want to make about the integrity of the university, coaching staff, athletic department, and basketball porgam without any basis in fact?

No, no personal attacks are acceptable.  As I wrote a few days ago, pleading for better behavior, we have failed at moderating them to a great extend due to the volume.

And no, I never use teal, and my previous comment was not to be interpreted as sarcasm.

Quote from: bradforster on July 06, 2010, 12:56:00 PM
On a side note, I asked DJ and Stan before a BB tournament on June 11th (not even a month ago) about the prep school topic because speculation was already running rampant on this board.  I felt compelled to ask if they knew anything about it.  They both said prep school had never been discussed.  They were fervent about DJ joining the Marquette BB team.  

Brad - just curious... in your recent discussions with Coach Laws, DJ, or his family, did the fact that he didn't have his application finished a week before he was to arrive come up? Any reasoning behind that strange situation?

Quote from: socrplar125 on July 06, 2010, 02:33:09 PM
Brad - just curious... in your recent discussions with Coach Laws, DJ, or his family, did the fact that he didn't have his application finished a week before he was to arrive come up? Any reasoning behind that strange situation?

exactly...brad before putting the video back upp...which i have never seen why dont u ask some questions from the other ide of the fence...a little bit of devils advocate...potentially discussing any previous discussions about prpep school...over recruitng...applaication etc.  Why on earth would buzz mention a player going to prep school?  not saying he was referring to DJ...but we were not even over the limit when he was talking about it...why even bring it up....if it were not the case....he has never said anything like that during the previous 2 recruitng classes. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 06, 2010, 01:13:26 PM
Why are people blaming Brad, myself, and others for bringing down MU?  Good grief, this sounds like what happens in the political world today....when in doubt, discredit the messenger.  Or calling their employer, try to get them fired (Brad, trust me...it's happened before, that's how ridiculous some of this stuff is for some people...CURA PERSONALIS)

Here's a newsflash folks, if MU PUT THEMSELVES IN THIS POSITION, not Brad Forester.  Not anyone else on this board.

All this guy has done is provide their side of the story, and he's the evil person for doing this?  What the heck has happened to some of you?  I always thought MU taught us to pursue the truth. Doesn't that journey include BOTH SIDES OF THE STORY?   As many have stated, more than likely the truth is somewhere in between what we have heard from both sides, but don't kill the messenger(s) for simply bringing up another point of view.

And finally, this absolute horsecrap from sone accusing others on this board being anti-MU, or wanting it's destruction, etc, is so totally unfair and ridiculous on all levels.  A lot of people here have worked their tails off to promote MU in a positive light over the years through their business contacts, marketing, etc.  That's what alums do.   But you know what, alums also care about the Marquette BRAND, care about how things are done and how the university is perceived.  And if standing up for those beliefs means a bunch of people who don't give a crap about those things will do nothing but attack others, threaten them with job losses, etc, etc....well, it's gone way too far!

+100000

People on this board make fun of the fantatics who defend Coach Cal types, without realizing that many on this board basically do the same thing to a lesser degree. 

Quote from: bradforster on July 06, 2010, 12:56:00 PM
Lol.  I am amused to say the least with the comments stemming from the video.  I have a feeling if I walked on campus right now I may meet an untimely demise by stoning or something far worse.  I am equally amused by this talk of a personal agenda.  For the umpteenth time, I simply wanted to provide a feature on an incoming recruit.  Heck, I did one for the Duke fans on Kyrie Irving.  I have no affiliation with Duke.  I haven't even been to the campus.

I am just as ardent a follower of the MU basketball program as any of you.  I called the games during my time on campus and worked closely with the basketball team during the Mike Deane tenure.  I attended games last year when I moved to the East coast.  I haven't missed a game on TV in forever.  

As I spent time with Stan, DJ, and others associated with them I developed a rapport with the group and ultimately a friendship.  When I heard Buzz Williams hadn't so much as called DJ and his family to break the news of Marquette's plans to move forward without DJ, I felt disappointed.  This is a man who continually speaks of high morals and ethical standards.  His actions in this instance didn't match the words nor the passion with which he delivers them.    

On a side note, I asked DJ and Stan before a BB tournament on June 11th (not even a month ago) about the prep school topic because speculation was already running rampant on this board.  I felt compelled to ask if they knew anything about it.  They both said prep school had never been discussed.  They were fervent about DJ joining the Marquette BB team.  

If the folks on MU Scoop want to castigate me for putting an opinion piece together based on my own research and feelings about the situation, that's your right.  I certainly won't take the name calling personally because I knew an overwhelmingly vitriolic response was a distinct possibility by offering a different point of view.

So you're not even suggesting that you're acting as a journalist but as a friend/spokesperson of a family with a major axe to grind. You all seem to have your talking points well rehearsed but the facts are : 1) Buzz has been (for months) quite candid about a recruit going the prep school route 2) As of late June DJ had made no plans to enroll in summer school or play in IWB's summer league and 3) DJ never even bothered to fill out an application to attend Marquette. Fact #1 speaks for itself and fact #2 and #3 show just how out of the MU loop DJ was and how little he evidently cared. Add to that Philly coach and you arriving on the scene to talk DJ + Marquette up even as it was becoming clear to anyone paying attention that DJ wouldn't be coming to MU. All of these facts suggest the Newbill camp knew the score but saw some upside in playing the victim.

Bottom line: I don't want to stone you nor accuse you of being an MU hater. But your "facts" don't add up for me. Don't know if you're playin' us or if Stan & co. are playin' you but I'd guess it's the latter. Good luck in your future endeavors and good luck to DJ.

The sad part about all this infighting is that I don't think people are all that far apart in their opinion of this situation.  From what I've read, I think almost everyone agrees that even if this was some type of conditional NLI situation, they're not thrilled about this happening at MU.  I keep picturing two people standing right next to each other, but trying to have a conversation by shouting as loud as they can over the other person's shoulder.

Just show me the airline ticket.....

Wow, just wow this entire thread and video is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this board is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Quote from: burger on July 06, 2010, 03:11:54 PM
Just show me the airline ticket.....

Do scholarship athletes pay their transportation costs to and from school?

QuoteSo you're not even suggesting that you're acting as a journalist but as a friend/spokesperson of a family with a major axe to grind. You all seem to have your talking points well rehearsed but the facts are : 1) Buzz has been (for months) quite candid about a recruit going the prep school route 2) As of late June DJ had made no plans to enroll in summer school or play in IWB's summer league and 3) DJ never even bothered to fill out an application to attend Marquette. Fact #1 speaks for itself and fact #2 and #3 show just how out of the MU loop DJ was and how little he evidently cared. Add to that Philly coach and you arriving on the scene to talk DJ + Marquette up even as it was becoming clear to anyone paying attention that DJ wouldn't be coming to MU. All of these facts suggest the Newbill camp knew the score but saw some upside in playing the victim.

Come on Lennys, you really believe everything you typed here?

Quotefact #2 and #3 show just how out of the MU loop DJ was and how little he evidently cared.

- You can honestly suggest that in the face of all this, he might not have cared?  That claim doesn't seem at all disingenuous?  Say what you want about how all of this was handled and have whatever opinion you want, but saying that he evidently didn't care is just quite obviously not true.  Similarly, the fact that he seems to have been out of the loop is exactly what gives people problems about the whole thing.  You arent supposed to sign an LOI and then be out of the loop.

Quote1) Buzz has been (for months) quite candid about a recruit going the prep school route

- You can't be both candid and cryptic.  There was a ton of speculation as to what this meant from day one, and now after the DJ scenario has played out, it remains incredibly cloudy. Again, I am not placing any blame on anyone, nor am I insinuating that I have a right to know for some reason.  But he was certainly not candid about what would transpire regarding prep school.

QuoteAdd to that Philly coach and you arriving on the scene to talk DJ + Marquette up even as it was becoming clear to anyone paying attention that DJ wouldn't be coming to MU. All of these facts suggest the Newbill camp knew the score but saw some upside in playing the victim.

I've read about plots to kill Castro that were less conspiratorial than this.  According to Rosiak's mention of an offer to DJ from WVU and all of the other regional attention he was garnering, it seems unlikely that there was ever any upside to plotting a bad PR campaign against MU.

Quote from: MUBurrow on July 06, 2010, 03:54:49 PM
Come on Lennys, you really believe everything you typed here? - You can honestly suggest that in the face of all this, he might not have cared?  That claim doesn't seem at all disingenuous?  Say what you want about how all of this was handled and have whatever opinion you want, but saying that he evidently didn't care is just quite obviously not true.  Similarly, the fact that he seems to have been out of the loop is exactly what gives people problems about the whole thing.  You arent supposed to sign an LOI and then be out of the loop.
- You can't be both candid and cryptic.  There was a ton of speculation as to what this meant from day one, and now after the DJ scenario has played out, it remains incredibly cloudy. Again, I am not placing any blame on anyone, nor am I insinuating that I have a right to know for some reason.  But he was certainly not candid about what would transpire regarding prep school.

I've read about plots to kill Castro that were less conspiratorial than this.  According to Rosiak's mention of an offer to DJ from WVU and all of the other regional attention he was garnering, it seems unlikely that there was ever any upside to plotting a bad PR campaign against MU.

Do I believe what I typed? Yes.

The suggestion is he didn't care for a reason. The reason? He already knew he wasn't coming.

Saying that a player is going to a prep school and that he knows who he is = candid.

Rosiak didn't mention that DJ had an offer from from WVU, he mentioned that DJ CLAIMED to have an offer from WVU. He wouldn't be the first 2 star recruit to end up at a place like Drexel after SELF-REPORTING an offer from a high major.

If you really think a friend with a video recorder and a former mentor trying to put their guy in the best possible light regardless of the facts requires some broad, far reaching conspiracy equal to that of bringing down the Castro (or any other) regime I've got some land in Death Valley with plenty of water to sell you.

see that whole scenario just doesn't seem likely to me i guess. that the DJ camp would have known he wasnt attending MU and then bash the program to anyone that would listen just doesnt serve DJ.  it in no way helps DJ find a new program or move forward. it seems like an awful lot of work for something where no one is really gaining anything, and thats even recognizing the potential personal benefits to people who are merely tangential to the whole process.
the self reporting offer part does clarify or change something in my mind, because i can see the clear purpose of self promoting and garnering attention form big schools with offers that might not be there or arent firmly on the table.  strategically, theres nothing wrong with trying to inflate the demand a little. and considering some of the voices in DJ's camp, it easy to assume he would have been given that type of advice.

i think what we can certainly agree on is that this whole ordeal would have been and would continue to be better if the DJ camp weren't so big. as is so often the case in CBB recruiting there are just too many people involved, all with varying degrees of desire to help DJ as opposed to get their own 15 minutes.  I still disagree that you could call Buzz candid and that DJ didnt act with every hope of coming to MU throughout the process, but it would be nice to have a single voice claiming to tell the DJ side of the story, rather than so many grandstanding "representatives".

Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 06, 2010, 02:57:18 PM
All of these facts suggest the Newbill camp knew the score but saw some upside in playing the victim.

This is the type of logic that just astounds me by those who condemn anyone who has criticized MU pulling DJN's scholarship -- the 18 year old kid "knew the score but saw some upside in playing the victim."

Just what "upside" is there to "playing the victim?"  DJN has no legal recourse, through either the NCAA or the judicial system.  But don't let that fact stop you from disparaging this kid.

This whole "he had it coming" attitude is merely rationalization on the part of those who have attempted to justify NCAA-legalized breach of contract.  You'd rather blame the kid than the sophisticated D-1 program that shafted him.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 06, 2010, 04:21:19 PM

Rosiak didn't mention that DJ had an offer from from WVU, he mentioned that DJ CLAIMED to have an offer from WVU. He wouldn't be the first 2 star recruit to end up at a place like Drexel after SELF-REPORTING an offer from a high major.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/97488689.html

From Rosiak's article:
"Newbill did not return a phone call or text message seeking comment."

That would seem to make it pretty tough for Newbill to have self-reported the offer from WVU to Rosiak, given that Rosiak didn't speak with him.

Here's what Rosiak actually wrote:
"Newbill, who scored 64 points in a game last season, wasn't a high-profile recruit, but turned down a scholarship offer to West Virginia and also had inquiries from Rutgers and Seton Hall. Because he signed with MU, he's now no longer eligible to play for any other Big East school."

Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 06, 2010, 04:21:19 PM
.

Rosiak didn't mention that DJ had an offer from from WVU, he mentioned that DJ CLAIMED to have an offer from WVU. He wouldn't be the first 2 star recruit to end up at a place like Drexel after SELF-REPORTING an offer from a high major.

Why do you keep saying this?  I provided the link to you days ago....unless Rosiak is wrong, which is possible, he clearly said in TWO articles that he was offered by West Virginia.  One in April and one in June.  Doesn't say anything about Newbill claiming to be offered by West Virginia, so why are you spinning it that way.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/97488689.html

"Newbill, who scored 64 points in a game last season, wasn't a high-profile recruit, but turned down a scholarship offer to West Virginia and also had inquiries from Rutgers and Seton Hall. Because he signed with MU, he's now no longer eligible to play for any other Big East school."


and here

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/90887964.html

Newbill, who committed to the Golden Eagles on Jan. 30, had a scholarship offer from West Virginia among other schools. He averaged 24.2 points, 9.0 rebounds, 5.0 assists and 4.0 steals per game this past season for Strawberry Mansion, leading his team to the state championship game and being named Pennsylvania Class AA player of the year.

Quote from: Marquette84 on July 06, 2010, 05:22:45 PM
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/97488689.html

From Rosiak's article:
"Newbill did not return a phone call or text message seeking comment."

That would seem to make it pretty tough for Newbill to have self-reported the offer from WVU to Rosiak, given that Rosiak didn't speak with him.

Here's what Rosiak actually wrote:
"Newbill, who scored 64 points in a game last season, wasn't a high-profile recruit, but turned down a scholarship offer to West Virginia and also had inquiries from Rutgers and Seton Hall. Because he signed with MU, he's now no longer eligible to play for any other Big East school."

DJ self repoted the offer to Rosiak when he originally committed. You (or anyone who cares to) can look it up.

Quote from: 3Mer on July 06, 2010, 05:10:26 PM
This is the type of logic that just astounds me by those who condemn anyone who has criticized MU pulling DJN's scholarship -- the 18 year old kid "knew the score but saw some upside in playing the victim."

Just what "upside" is there to "playing the victim?"  DJN has no legal recourse, through either the NCAA or the judicial system.  But don't let that fact stop you from disparaging this kid.

This whole "he had it coming" attitude is merely rationalization on the part of those who have attempted to justify NCAA-legalized breach of contract.  You'd rather blame the kid than the sophisticated D-1 program that shafted him.

Exactly....it makes no logical sense at all.  To this day, no one has answered my question why this kid and his family\coaches would recommend signing with Marquette if this offer was contingent and not sign with another Big East school, or Temple, etc.  WHY ON EARTH DO THIS?  Because he wanted to hold out to play the victim card?   I want to put tin foil on the heads of some of these people.

Occam's Razor fellas. 

Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 06, 2010, 05:34:56 PM
DJ self repoted the offer to Rosiak when he originally committed. You (or anyone who cares to) can look it up.

You are correct, sir.

"Newbill said he chose MU over fellow Big East rival West Virginia, which still had a scholarship offer on the table"

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/goldeneagles/83175597.html

Of course, relying on the player and/or his coaches is the only way a reporter ican get some information. It's not like Bob Huggins goes around - or can go around, for that matter - telling reporters who he's offered.

Quote from: Pakuni on July 06, 2010, 06:42:11 PM
You are correct, sir.

"Newbill said he chose MU over fellow Big East rival West Virginia, which still had a scholarship offer on the table"

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/goldeneagles/83175597.html

Of course, relying on the player and/or his coaches is the only way a reporter ican get some information. It's not like Bob Huggins goes around - or can go around, for that matter - telling reporters who he's offered.

And this is the ORIGINAL Rosiak blog (Jan 30th) on the matter, so Rosiak first heard the info from the horse's mouth and months later mistakenly repoted it as fact rather than an assertion from DJ. I'll hang up and wait for the apologies from 84 and Chicos.

Oh, and did I forget to mention that Chicos himself supplied us with the info that DJ was the 170th rated player at his position (placing him between 800 and 900 in his class). He also referenced several sites that reported his suitors as decidedly below Big East levels. Interesting.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 06, 2010, 07:11:07 PM
And this is the ORIGINAL Rosiak blog (Jan 30th) on the matter, so Rosiak first heard the info from the horse's mouth and months later mistakenly repoted it as fact rather than an assertion from DJ. I'll hang up and wait for the apologies from 84 and Chicos.

That's a plausible explanation.  Or Rosiak did his job as a journalist and confirmed it.  Also plausible.

In the end .. as someone above said, Huggins doesn't go around telling people who he's offered to, nor do most (any) coaches.  Doesn't all that "who offered to whom" talk originate with the recruits, their families or coaches?

So if you want to doubt that he had a WVU offer, you might as well toss out every comment by a recruit about their scholly offers.   The report that Bob Huggins attended one of his games was probably false too, eh?

Indeed, I suppose people lie about stuff all the time.  Gosh, this DJ Newbill guy sure is a scoundrel.  Lying about his offers .. whether or not the offer was for 2011 after a year of prep (assumed) or 2010.  I guess we really dodged a bullet with this young man.   

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on July 06, 2010, 07:45:45 PM
That's a plausible explanation.  Or Rosiak did his job as a journalist and confirmed it.  Also plausible.

In the end .. as someone above said, Huggins doesn't go around telling people who he's offered to, nor do most (any) coaches.  Doesn't all that "who offered to whom" talk originate with the recruits, their families or coaches?

So if you want to doubt that he had a WVU offer, you might as well toss out every comment by a recruit about their scholly offers.   The report that Bob Huggins attended one of his games was probably false too, eh?

Indeed, I suppose people lie about stuff all the time.  Gosh, this DJ Newbill guy sure is a scoundrel.  Lying about his offers .. whether or not the offer was for 2011 after a year of prep (assumed) or 2010.  I guess we really dodged a bullet with this young man.   

Well, lets put it this way. At the time he verballed to us (Jan 30) no recruiting website anywhere was reporting an offer from WVU for DJ. Furthermore, he was not considered Big East material by any of the scouting services. Certainly seems plausible (likely)that DJ was pounding his chest a bit and reporting "interest" as an offer. Kids do it all the time and I'm not suggesting it would make him a bad guy. Just a guy who, along with his "handlers" (see the Jan 30 thread for more on this) hears what he wants to hear.

I don't think it was right what happened to DJ.  If you check all my posts you can verify it.  I think most MU Scoopers feel that way.  But I got to say, after about the 100th post by Chicos the guy put a huge target on his own back.  So whats with the crying?

As for Brad, after all the work he did documenting DJ I would of wanted to get atleast something out on the internet.  An it appears he did for a short short while before he pulled it.  I have nothing against what he did.  If he feels he is on higher moral ground, good for him.

I can't say I am happy with what transpired, but if you can't live with it, walk on.  Maybe there are other teams that can meet your standards.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 06, 2010, 07:21:36 PM
Oh, and did I forget to mention that Chicos himself supplied us with the info that DJ was the 170th rated player at his position (placing him between 800 and 900 in his class). He also referenced several sites that reported his suitors as decidedly below Big East levels. Interesting.

I do recall this quite well - it was an opportunity to call into question Buzz, thus Chico's took it..just as he is doing with the Newbill scholarship revocation.  I think everyone here agrees that we don't like what transpired....BUT....to continue to belabor and make Buzz/MU the bad guy by one of our own Alumni - Chicos - makes this start to feel more like a personal agenda and axe to grind, than it does to debate the actual event.  And, the actual event has been way, way over-debated at this point already.  The truth lies somewhere in the middle between what the Newbill Camp alledges, and what the IWB account is..there is no reason to discount IWB's version 100% and to believe Newbill's version 100%.  Let it go Chicos..we all know how you feel on the matter.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 06, 2010, 08:04:04 PM
Well, lets put it this way. At the time he verballed to us (Jan 30) no recruiting website anywhere was reporting an offer from WVU for DJ. Furthermore, he was not considered Big East material by any of the scouting services. Certainly seems plausible (likely)that DJ was pounding his chest a bit and reporting "interest" as an offer. Kids do it all the time and I'm not suggesting it would make him a bad guy. Just a guy who, along with his "handlers" (see the Jan 30 thread for more on this) hears what he wants to hear.

That may be so.  Rivals now lists MU, WVU, Drexel and Lasalle as having offered DJ.  Never heard of this website (http://www.recruitrecon.com/index.php?option=com_recruit&task=showplayerprofile&sportid=1&id=238), but it lists a slew of schools .. Temple, Drexel, ECU, FSU, Nebraska, Niagara, Rider.  Quite a list of schools if you're puffing yourself.  And that one lists DePaul, St. Joes, and Temple as interested, but no offer.  Odd if you're puffiing yourself to be truthful about those other non-offers.

So now not only Rosiak is wrong, but so is Rivals and RecruitRecon.     Apparently, Buzz thought he was BE material.  For a while, anyhow.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on July 06, 2010, 07:45:45 PM
That's a plausible explanation.  Or Rosiak did his job as a journalist and confirmed it.  Also plausible.

If Rosiak confirmed it elsewhere, he probably wouldn't have attributed it to Newbill. Simply put, he attributed the information to its source. That's his job as a journalist. If President Obama tells Jake Tapper that he's vetoing a bill next week, Jake Tapper won't go out and "confirm it." He'll report that Obama says he's vetoing a bill next week. In this case, Rosiak is not confirming that Newbill did or did not have an offer from WVU. He's stating that that's what Newbill said.

I'm in no way suggesting Newbill lied, by the way. Just clarifying that the source of the information was Newbill himself, not Rosiak.

Quote from: Pakuni on July 06, 2010, 09:28:32 PM
If Rosiak confirmed it elsewhere, he probably wouldn't have attributed it to Newbill. Simply put, he attributed the information to its source. That's his job as a journalist. If President Obama tells Jake Tapper that he's vetoing a bill next week, Jake Tapper won't go out and "confirm it." He'll report that Obama says he's vetoing a bill next week. In this case, Rosiak is not confirming that Newbill did or did not have an offer from WVU. He's stating that that's what Newbill said.

I'm in no way suggesting Newbill lied, by the way. Just clarifying that the source of the information was Newbill himself, not Rosiak.

I agree with your assessment .. for the first Rosiak blog, where he did exactly as you said.  The second blog entry, he didn't.  "Newbill, who scored 64 points in a game last season, wasn't a high-profile recruit, but turned down a scholarship offer to West Virginia and also had inquiries from Rutgers and Seton Hall."

Admittedly, he could have just used his first post as his basis for not quoting the source on the second.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 06, 2010, 07:21:36 PM
Oh, and did I forget to mention that Chicos himself supplied us with the info that DJ was the 170th rated player at his position (placing him between 800 and 900 in his class). He also referenced several sites that reported his suitors as decidedly below Big East levels. Interesting.

LOL....so was Roseboro, yet MU (a Big East school last I checked) gave him a scholarship.  You'll have to forgive me from laughing so hard at your attempt at humor or whatever it was....yes, DJ was not rated highly but that sure as hell doesn't mean he didn't get a Big East offer...he did, from Marquette University and likely from West Virginia.

Maybe we should ask why Buzz is going around giving Big East scholarship offers to players like Roseboro and Newbill....oh wait...

Quote from: Ners on July 06, 2010, 08:44:18 PM
I do recall this quite well - it was an opportunity to call into question Buzz, thus Chico's took it..just as he is doing with the Newbill scholarship revocation.  I think everyone here agrees that we don't like what transpired....BUT....to continue to belabor and make Buzz/MU the bad guy by one of our own Alumni - Chicos - makes this start to feel more like a personal agenda and axe to grind, than it does to debate the actual event.  And, the actual event has been way, way over-debated at this point already.  The truth lies somewhere in the middle between what the Newbill Camp alledges, and what the IWB account is..there is no reason to discount IWB's version 100% and to believe Newbill's version 100%.  Let it go Chicos..we all know how you feel on the matter.

This from a guy who thinks Forester joined sometime in the last few months to do some kind of conspiracy on MU?   ;D  How does the tinfoil fit?

Actually Ners, if you read my posts, I said the truth is probably in the middle.....pretty much what you just said, all it takes is a little reading.   But the idea that we have to buy Buzz's account 100% is ludicrous and only paints people as complete lap dogs and blind to common sense.

Then I'm reading Lenny and Pakuni  say they aren't calling this kid a liar about his offer from West Virginia, but doing everything but calling him ...a liar.  Whatever.  

The irony there, of course, is that we've been told time and time again NOT TO BELIEVE the recruiting websites because Buzz often has things going on that the sites don't know about or aren't updated on yet....but NOW, the sites are sacred because none of them had a WVU offer listed at the time of his verbal.  Good Lord, the double standard here is incredible sometimes.

Sorry, no apologies from me....multiple sites said WVU offered.  The kid, his coach, etc said he was offered.  But hey, I'll bet he and Forester were cooking this up for months to make MU look bad. 

(http://blog.franciscocosta.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/tin-foil-hat.jpg)

Quote from: Pakuni on July 06, 2010, 09:28:32 PM
If Rosiak confirmed it elsewhere, he probably wouldn't have attributed it to Newbill. Simply put, he attributed the information to its source. That's his job as a journalist. If President Obama tells Jake Tapper that he's vetoing a bill next week, Jake Tapper won't go out and "confirm it." He'll report that Obama says he's vetoing a bill next week. In this case, Rosiak is not confirming that Newbill did or did not have an offer from WVU. He's stating that that's what Newbill said.

I'm in no way suggesting Newbill lied, by the way. Just clarifying that the source of the information was Newbill himself, not Rosiak.

And likewise, you have no idea if he did, in fact, get an offer from WVU.  Correct?  You're simply not calling him a liar but not willing to believe him, Rosiak (who apparently believed the liar...the kid, but didn't confirm it).    You guys are spinning so fast you don't even know what day of the week it is.


Let's just sum it up, shall we.

We have three articles from Todd Rosiak saying West Virginia offered.  Now, did he use the original source, Mr. Newbill?  Who knows.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/83911602.html

http://dev.www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/90887964.html?page=4

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/97488689.html


We have multiple sites saying he was offered ( ::) )

Rivals (click on the SHOW ALL TAB)   http://rivals.yahoo.com/marquette/basketball/recruiting/player-D.J.-Newbill-107573


http://www.recruitrecon.com/index.php?option=com_recruit&task=showplayerprofile&sportid=1&id=238


Then we have IWB, who I think is very well connected and does his homework, writing on February 2nd that the people that know him best are his coaches (Law and Waiters).  He dedicates most of the column to those two coaches....for which we had people here going crazy with love and high fives...only now these two coaches are persona non grata.  Ahem, hello. 

http://marquette.scout.com/2/943278.html

Chicos, we're sorry Buzz may have offered a couple sub-Big East players.  We are sorry if WVU actually offered Newbill a scholarship.  It's clear we can't measure up to your standards.  Why don't you just go to a site that can meet your standards?  Have you gone bizerk on the Indiana web site with the Creaning going on there?  Have you been policing other programs?   Where would college hoops be if not for you to straighten it out?

Quote from: NCMUFan on July 07, 2010, 12:00:49 AM
Chicos, we're sorry Buzz may have offered a couple sub-Big East players.  We are sorry if WVU actually offered Newbill a scholarship.  It's clear we can't measure up to your standards.  Why don't you just go to a site that can meet your standards?  Have you gone bizerk on the Indiana web site with the Creaning going on there?  Have you been policing other programs?   Where would college hoops be if not for you to straightened it out?

Nope, I don't go berzerk on the IU website because I don't give much of a crap about IU.  I do care about MU and think we are better than this and don't need to do this to a kid.  I also know we have a fan base that absolutely would not have tolerated this a few years ago, but suddenly now it's ok?  That's pretty sad.  The spin here has been on super cycle.  Sorry if some of us think MU should be above this.  It's pretty damn sad to watch MU fans call a kid a liar, call a family liars, accept this kind of action.

NC, you're better than that.  We all are.  It's the citizenry which holds gov't accountable, it's alumni and others that hold the university accountable.  MU is a fine institution, we can do better than what we've shown in the last week.  Deep down, you know it, too.

Chicos we all love Marquette.  But what do you want?  A public apology by Buzz?  The firing of Buzz?  DJ will get a free college education at a great school.  Sadly it is not going to be Marquette.  But he is playing with house money.  He is going to come out way ahead.  It's time to move on.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 06, 2010, 11:46:51 PM
And likewise, you have no idea if he did, in fact, get an offer from WVU.  Correct?  You're simply not calling him a liar but not willing to believe him, Rosiak (who apparently believed the liar...the kid, but didn't confirm it).    You guys are spinning so fast you don't even know what day of the week it is.


Let's just sum it up, shall we.

We have three articles from Todd Rosiak saying West Virginia offered.  Now, did he use the original source, Mr. Newbill?  Who knows.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/83911602.html

http://dev.www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/90887964.html?page=4

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/97488689.html


We have multiple sites saying he was offered ( ::) )

Rivals (click on the SHOW ALL TAB)   http://rivals.yahoo.com/marquette/basketball/recruiting/player-D.J.-Newbill-107573


http://www.recruitrecon.com/index.php?option=com_recruit&task=showplayerprofile&sportid=1&id=238


Then we have IWB, who I think is very well connected and does his homework, writing on February 2nd that the people that know him best are his coaches (Law and Waiters).  He dedicates most of the column to those two coaches....for which we had people here going crazy with love and high fives...only now these two coaches are persona non grata.  Ahem, hello. 

http://marquette.scout.com/2/943278.html

What the ---- are you talking about, Chico's? I have never - not once - said or even implied Newbill lacked an WVU offer. To the contrary, in a previous post, I said "I don't see why he'd lie about it."

For a guy who like to play who loves nothing more than to play the victim around here  - Ooohhh  ...  can't wait for you to yet again reply "You must hate Buzz" in teal under someone else's mildy critical post Get it? Get it? Because people say you hate Buzz. so they hate Buzz too because they were critical. Oh man, that's a doozy - you sure like to make bogus accusations against others. This is two against me in less than a week. And, just like last time, I suspect you won't admit you were wrong.

For Pete's sake, where else do you think Rosiak got that from if not from the kid? Huggins?? Sure. Huggins is going to take the time to call Rosiak - possibly violating NCAA rules in the process - to confirm he offered a kid who chose another school. That sounds way more likely than Rosiak simply relying on the kid's own. I mean, really, where else did the info come from, if not Newbill or his coaches?

Oh, and the tin foil hat ... Classic.
This from a guy who's strongly implied that Scott Monarch told DJ Newbill to take his time with his essay - if that's even what was said -  as part of a grand, scurrilous conspiracy to dupe the guileless waif into never applying. Way to crack the case, Mr. Holmes.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 07, 2010, 12:05:28 AM
Nope, I don't go berzerk on the IU website because I don't give much of a crap about IU.  I do care about MU and think we are better than this and don't need to do this to a kid.  I also know we have a fan base that absolutely would not have tolerated this a few years ago, but suddenly now it's ok?  

Yeah, Chico's, I clearly remember your outrage over Damian Saunders being shown the door the same week classes began, a move that oh-so-conveniently solved Marquette's oversigning problem. How fortunate Marquette was to discover at about the last possible moment that a full qualified kid didn't meet their arbitrary (and, apparently, shifting) standards
Phew, we lucked out that time. If not for the last-minute discovery of Saunders' academic issues, someone might have accused Marquette of doing something "damn sad." I don't know about you, but I've heard that after June, every possible opportunity out there for a kid is trash.

Oh wait, I don't remember your outrage after all. Cause there was none.
Hmmm ... I wonder why that is.

I propose a truce with Chicos.  I can't see anything constructive in continuing the arguments.  Sorry, can't nail Buzz to the cross.  How do you know how much flak he may have taken on what transpired?

Chicos:

A few years back, you really added to the board, and you came across as a real big Marquette backer. Now, you seem to be a critic of everything in the program and a royal pain in the @$$!

You talk about others being slanted with their opinion in one direction, but how about you? I haven't seen one scenario that you have provided that would reflect positively on Marquette, or the coaching staff. You made up your mind on this topic before the entire story is known.

I don't know what happened, and I hope the best for DJ. I will wait to pass judgement until I know what really went on. Most educated people do that...........I said MOST.

GO MU!

Quote from: NCMUFan on July 07, 2010, 12:13:27 AM
Chicos we all love Marquette.  But what do you want?  A public apology by Buzz?  The firing of Buzz?  DJ will get a free college education at a great school.  Sadly it is not going to be Marquette.  But he is playing with house money.  He is going to come out way ahead.  It's time to move on.

No, I think what he wants is for the members of this board, most of whom have received a fantastic education at a fine University, to start using their heads.  As soon as IWB's account came out on this board, 95% of us were jumping on board with the official MU side of the story.  No healthy skepticism about inconistencies on the MU end...just buying it hook, line and sinker.

Now Im not saying DJ's story is 100% true either.  As I said earlier, there are plenty of shades of gray here and the truth lies in the middle.

Seriously, I think Buzz is a very good coach.  But the dude makes mistakes...and this was one of them.  It doesn't really reflect well on MU.  Hopefully he will learn from this and move on.  He seems like a good man who cares for his players.  If that is indeed the case, he will likely make many more good decisions than bad ones.  But there should be no doubt that this was a bad decision.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 07, 2010, 06:49:17 AM

But there should be no doubt that this was a bad decision.

Ohh, I doubt that plenty. The way the 'Newbill camp' has conductyed themselves in the days leading up to and following this, I can't conclude that this is anything but a good decision. Until someone can articulate a tangible negative impact of what went down on MU or the basketball program, in reputation or performance, I see no reason to change that opinion. As I said yesterday, aside from a few people who are choosing to be upset by this, nobody knows, let alone cares.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on July 07, 2010, 07:55:24 AM
As I said yesterday, aside from a few people who are choosing to be upset by this, nobody knows, let alone cares.

That's really the point, isn't it?  $crewing this kid over isn't measured by any standard of decency or ethics, but rather by the intensity of public reaction.  Ring out ahoya.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 06, 2010, 11:39:19 PM
This from a guy who thinks Forester joined sometime in the last few months to do some kind of conspiracy on MU?   ;D  How does the tinfoil fit?

Actually Ners, if you read my posts, I said the truth is probably in the middle.....pretty much what you just said, all it takes is a little reading.   But the idea that we have to buy Buzz's account 100% is ludicrous and only paints people as complete lap dogs and blind to common sense.

Quote

Chicos - I was well aware Brad joined MUScoop well prior to posting his first video on DJ...and I stated that in an earlier post.  My point was that Brad's videos and posts increased and coincided with Phillly Coach appearing on MUScoop.  I don't have a beef with Brad..but do think he very likely is being used by the Newbill camp to advance their agenda/propoganda.  As you said, the truth lies in the middle..so why continue to belabor this issue?  Just let it go...you aren't going to change the minds of those who believe differently than you...

Looks like the Newbilll camp was "atleast" third in the "chow" line and was told that "prep" school was the only way he was going to make it to Marquette.....

What you hear....and what "you choose" to believe are where the grey area exists!

Wilson was Plan 1.....

Here is Plan 2.....

Transfer forward Rudd to sign with USF today
It'll be a year before he can play for the Bulls, but small forward Victor Rudd, a 6-foot-8 transfer from Arizona State, will sign with USF today.

"I felt like it was the best fit for me," said Rudd, who visited USF's campus last week. "They play up-and-down basketball, which I love, and they'll let me play the 3 (small forward). I like that I'll be playing in the best conference in college basketball."

Rudd said he chose the Bulls over Marquette, St. John's, Miami and San Diego State, and he will sit out the 2010-11 season and will then have three years of eligibility

Was there a Plan 3 or 4.....

Buzz had even said so for months that one of the recruits would definetly be going to Prep school.....

Pretty funny a kid tried to storm the gates to get into a school of his choosing......

New strategy....That is for sure....

Quote from: Ners on July 06, 2010, 08:44:18 PM
I do recall this quite well - it was an opportunity to call into question Buzz, thus Chico's took it..just as he is doing with the Newbill scholarship revocation.  I think everyone here agrees that we don't like what transpired....BUT....to continue to belabor and make Buzz/MU the bad guy by one of our own Alumni - Chicos - makes this start to feel more like a personal agenda and axe to grind, than it does to debate the actual event.  And, the actual event has been way, way over-debated at this point already.  The truth lies somewhere in the middle between what the Newbill Camp alledges, and what the IWB account is..there is no reason to discount IWB's version 100% and to believe Newbill's version 100%.  Let it go Chicos..we all know how you feel on the matter.

The answer is quite simple...chicos does not like Buzz cutting but he is OK with Creaning.  using my definitions...  Chicos would be Ok with it if a 800th player in the class , whom i might add Crean was great at signing, got run off for a player of equal or lesser talent.   This apparently OK with chico but when a player gets buzz cut for a top 100 player this is not Ok.

personally I am ok with Buzz cutting.  the old Creaning, ie Bell for Berkowitz, etc. etc. etc got old and was pathetic

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on July 07, 2010, 07:55:24 AM
Ohh, I doubt that plenty. The way the 'Newbill camp' has conductyed themselves in the days leading up to and following this, I can't conclude that this is anything but a good decision. Until someone can articulate a tangible negative impact of what went down on MU or the basketball program, in reputation or performance, I see no reason to change that opinion. As I said yesterday, aside from a few people who are choosing to be upset by this, nobody knows, let alone cares.

I think we need to look at the decision that was made before calling it good or bad, since some have seemingly forgot what it even was.  The decision wasn't "do I screw over the kid or not?"  The decision was whether or not to accept Jamil Wilson.  Buzz could have chosen to tell him to look elsewhere, or he could accept him and take  the scholarship from Newbill.  

Similarly, this isn't at all a "lesson on oversigning".  How often do 4-star, top 100 transfers become available in late June?  I don't know if the actual decision above was correct, though I agree that Newbill's "publicists" are having the opposite effect from what was intended and making it seem like it wasn't as difficult a decision as originally thought.  I disagree completely that it's a good idea to leave a scholarship open for transfers or Noreen-esque stragglers in late June.  Maybe in late April, but not late June.  A player like Wilson coming in is rare, and in every other year you're forced to bank a scholarship or left with whatever is at the very bottom of the barrel, effectively self-imposing a one scholarship penalty on the program.  So I guess I'm not clear on what the "lessons learned" are...what exactly do you do differently to prevent this from happening again?  You either turn down the late commit or transfer or you go into most seasons a player short because you wanted to be prepared just in case another Wilson wants to come.

interesting news on the Victor Rudd situation.  makes sense we need a forward more than we need a 5th 2 guard.  I remeber we recruited Rudd out of HS...pretty big time recruit if i recall...got kicked off his HS team tho and that seems to be a warning sign to me. 


OBTW...if chicos is sooo annoying and he is incredibly annoying just use the ignore button and the board get 100x less viotrolic towards MU, Buzz , and Mu basketball...sort of like a Mu fan board should be. 

Quote from: burger on July 07, 2010, 09:00:33 AM
Buzz had even said so for months that one of the recruits would definetly be going to Prep school.....

Pretty funny a kid tried to storm the gates to get into a school of his choosing......

New strategy....That is for sure....

I was trying really hard to stay out of this thread, but...

How is there any way you could possibly believe what you typed there?  DJ has complied with MU's wishes 100% in this case.  He was understandably upset and he let some of that out; it's not like he's trying to hold them to the fire to accept his NLI or anything.  He said he would sign a request for release when asked.  He's moving on looking for another home.  All the talk around here is by people completely unrelated to DJ - you can't possibly attribute their words to him.  Where in the world are you getting "tried to storm the gates to get into a school of his choosing." 

I would add that by signing the NLI, MU said they were "choosing" DJ too, but that obviously makes no difference to some.  Either way, I don't get the villainization of DJ.

Quote from: 3Mer on July 07, 2010, 08:50:27 AM
That's really the point, isn't it?  $crewing this kid over isn't measured by any standard of decency or ethics, but rather by the intensity of public reaction.  Ring out ahoya.

+1

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on July 07, 2010, 07:55:24 AM
Ohh, I doubt that plenty. The way the 'Newbill camp' has conductyed themselves in the days leading up to and following this, I can't conclude that this is anything but a good decision. Until someone can articulate a tangible negative impact of what went down on MU or the basketball program, in reputation or performance, I see no reason to change that opinion. As I said yesterday, aside from a few people who are choosing to be upset by this, nobody knows, let alone cares.

Even if you believe that the whole prep school thing was above board, signing the kid to a NLI, and then asking him for a release later, was a bad decision.

If no other reason than the negative reaction that it has caused.

Quote from: Pakuni on July 07, 2010, 12:30:49 AM
Yeah, Chico's, I clearly remember your outrage over Damian Saunders being shown the door the same week classes began, a move that oh-so-conveniently solved Marquette's oversigning problem. How fortunate Marquette was to discover at about the last possible moment that a full qualified kid didn't meet their arbitrary (and, apparently, shifting) standards
Phew, we lucked out that time. If not for the last-minute discovery of Saunders' academic issues, someone might have accused Marquette of doing something "damn sad." I don't know about you, but I've heard that after June, every possible opportunity out there for a kid is trash.

Oh wait, I don't remember your outrage after all. Cause there was none.
Hmmm ... I wonder why that is.

There was no outrage because this was not a player that we gave up on before he even arrived on campus.

You don't have a scintilla of evidence to suggest that Marquette wanted Damian Saunders off the team.   You don't have any evidence that MU was giving him every opportunity to qualify, waiting until every possible test date had passed.

Maybe Saunders didn't formally submit his application until August.
Maybe MU was waiting for the final SAT scores to come in.

Unless you KNOW these two things to be false, they are just as plausible (if not more plausible) than your accusations.

Quote from: burger on July 07, 2010, 09:00:33 AM

Pretty funny a kid tried to storm the gates to get into a school of his choosing......

Yeah...."stormed the gates" by signing the NLI that was offered to him.   ::)

Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 06, 2010, 05:34:56 PM
DJ self repoted the offer to Rosiak when he originally committed. You (or anyone who cares to) can look it up.

And Rosiak independently confirmed it, hence its reported as fact without attribution or quote.  

As you said, everyone knows players will invent offers that don't exist---why do you think Rosiak would be so incompetent as to accept a player's word and not confirm independently?

Quote from: 3Mer on July 07, 2010, 08:50:27 AM
That's really the point, isn't it?  $crewing this kid over isn't measured by any standard of decency or ethics, but rather by the intensity of public reaction.  Ring out ahoya.

Ding ding ding....well said.  The entire concept of what the right thing to do is has been totally lost for some people.  I honestly never thought I'd see this from the MU fan base.  Kentucky, Memphis, USC...yes.  Badger football fans...yes.  MU, nope.

And the trashing of an 18 year old kid, his family, posters that are questioning our motives, is beyond the pale.  Nothing worse than seeing people trash 18 year old kids and calling them liars (directly or indirectly) along with their families.  It's not right.

Quote from: Marquette84 on July 07, 2010, 10:22:43 AM
And Rosiak independently confirmed it, hence its reported as fact without attribution or quote.  

As you said, everyone knows players will invent offers that don't exist---why do you think Rosiak would be so incompetent as to accept a player's word and not confirm independently?

Plus multiple recruiting sites saying the same thing.  Ho hum....remember, you are not to believe the recruiting sites in THIS instance, but other instances it's ok...when others tell you so.   ::)

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 07, 2010, 12:24:31 PM

Ding ding ding....well said.  The entire concept of what the right thing to do is has been totally lost for some people.  

I agree, as some would argue that accepting a kid into a program where he is likely to be in over his head, not play, have a high likelihood of transferring, etc., be it for grades, athletics, or what have you, is not doing the right thing.

Do you know if the MU staff had any doubts about his academic ability? No you don't.
Do you know if the MU staff had any doubts about his athletic ability? No you don't.
Do you know if the MU staff had any doubts about his commitment to do the work? No you don't.
Do you know if any of the above were realized after the NLI was signed? No you don't.
Do you know if they did/did not make him fully aware that this was a possibility? No you don't.

You have made the decision to give the benefit of the doubt to a couple guys with an internet connection and a video camera over Buzz Williams, so let's just call it what it actually is...You see it in black and white that Buzz Williams screwed this kid over, messed up his life, etc. (lets be more dramatic), because the coach involved was Buzz Williams, a hire you opposed at the time, and now you are looking for whatever you can to justify that position, as he represents the University in impeccable fashion and recruits circles around your hero who had the job before him. That's it. You defended the previous guy for similar things, but now it is not the Marquette way. Gimmie and effing break!

Even if Newbill did have an offer from WVU, that doesn't mean it was an unconditional offer, or that it was even better than any conditions MU may have had on their offer, or that WVU would even accept a verbal from Newbill.  We just don't know.  Schools always have way more offers out there than spots available, and Crean is one of the more prolific with this practice.  But they're often conditional on other events, like if the school's first choice goes elsewhere, if someone transfers, if someone enters the draft early, or if it's between 2 players and whoever commits first gets the spot, etc.  Conditional offers are extremely common and they all just get reported as "offers" by the players and the recruiting services.  However, all "offers" aren't equal.  I have no idea what type of offer Newbill had from WVU, none of us do, but we can't just assume that Newbill would be in Morgantown right now if he wouldn't have signed with MU.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on July 07, 2010, 12:36:29 PM


Do you know if the MU staff had any doubts about his academic ability? No you don't.
Do you know if the MU staff had any doubts about his athletic ability? No you don't.
Do you know if the MU staff had any doubts about his commitment to do the work? No you don't.
Do you know if any of the above were realized after the NLI was signed? No you don't.
Do you know if they did/did not make him fully aware that this was a possibility? No you don't.

Is it too much to expect that our coaching staff address those doubts before they extend a scholarship?

I don't know with certainty if the MU staff had the doubts you raise--nor do you.

What I do know is that if they DID still have those doubts, they damn well shouldn't have signed him to an LOI.

Quote from: Marquette84 on July 07, 2010, 01:07:37 PM
Is it too much to expect that our coaching staff address those doubts before they extend a scholarship?

I don't know with certainty if the MU staff had the doubts you raise--nor do you.

What I do know is that if they DID still have those doubts, they damn well shouldn't have signed him to an LOI.

Ding ding ding.  Winner.

Quote from: Marquette84 on July 07, 2010, 01:07:37 PM
Is it too much to expect that our coaching staff address those doubts before they extend a scholarship?

I don't know with certainty if the MU staff had the doubts you raise--nor do you.

What I do know is that if they DID still have those doubts, they damn well shouldn't have signed him to an LOI.

So if they came to realize that signing him (or any other player) to the NLI was a mistake (and I am not necessarily saying that's what happened), your position is that they should bring him into MU anyway, even though they have concerns that he is not going to make it? That is doing the right thing in your odd little basketball world? You'd rather have them not admit to a mistake, regardless of the timing, then do what they think is best for both MU and the player involved? 

Using that logic, both Damian Saunders and Brett Roseboro would have been better off coming to MU and wasting a year (two once they sit out), before they washed out.  Yep, they definitely would have been better served doing that.

Then again, using your words where Saunders is concerned, is it too much to expect that our coaching staff address those doubts before they extend a scholarship? They damn well shouldn't have signed him to an LOI.

Were you this upset back then, or did your mistake-free standard go into place at MU sometime after that, say around April of 2008?

The hypocrisy this whole thing has exposed is ridiculous.

Quote from: Marquette84 on July 07, 2010, 01:07:37 PM
What I do know is that if they DID still have those doubts, they damn well shouldn't have signed him to an LOI.

Is anyone really disagreeing with this?  We're all talking ourselves blue in the face, or at least typing until our fingers tips are numb, about the minor details, but I bet 95% of the people here can agree with that.  Unless something changed after the signing, but that's just one of those details.

Now you guys are arguing "do you put the cart before the horse"?????

Should we get stuck a player down perennially because we are waiting on a recruit to decide....

How many times as that happenned and we ended up with the 300th player from a JC that no one has heard from....(remember Crean's desperation end of the bench....out of time recruits)

Going to MU on a basketball scholarship is an achievement that "should"  be guaranteed to a select few of the top 100 basketball HS seniors in the country....

I have no problem with Buzz's methods.....Neither does the NCAA.....If you have a problem.....Give up your season tickets!

Your other methods have led to a level of unintended "NCAA violations".....Brad your a stupid fool.....At least read the rules before you do stupid S__T!.....You are at least.....Not a "friend" of the program.....PS.....You may want to get a lawyer......

The victim role played well for Newbill until he was told he was violating NCAA rules!

We will never know the full story.....Because MU is probably pretty versed in conducting themselves professionally.....As some of you gentlemen have showed that you are not!

And this is assuming that Buzz did everything you accuse him of.....I am of the opinion he did the least and this "story" is pretty much completely contrived by the Newbill camp.....

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on July 07, 2010, 01:20:54 PM
So if they came to realize that signing him (or any other player) to the NLI was a mistake (and I am not necessarily saying that's what happened), your position is that they should bring him into MU anyway, even though they have concerns that he is not going to make it? That is doing the right thing in your odd little basketball world? You'd rather have them not admit to a mistake, regardless of the timing, then do what they think is best for both MU and the player involved?  

Using that logic, both Damian Saunders and Brett Roseboro would have been better off coming to MU and wasting a year (two once they sit out), before they washed out.  Yep, they definitely would have been better served doing that.

Then again, using your words where Saunders is concerned, is it too much to expect that our coaching staff address those doubts before they extend a scholarship? They damn well shouldn't have signed him to an LOI.

Were you this upset back then, or did your mistake-free standard go into place at MU sometime after that, say around April of 2008?

The hypocrisy this whole thing has exposed is ridiculous.

Ding,ding,ding. Old winner denied admission.(al a Damian Saunders) New winner.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on July 07, 2010, 01:20:54 PM
So if they came to realize that signing him (or any other player) to the NLI was a mistake (and I am not necessarily saying that's what happened), your position is that they should bring him into MU anyway, even though they have concerns that he is not going to make it? That is doing the right thing in your odd little basketball world? You'd rather have them not admit to a mistake, regardless of the timing, then do what they think is best for both MU and the player involved? 

Using that logic, both Damian Saunders and Brett Roseboro would have been better off coming to MU and wasting a year (two once they sit out), before they washed out.  Yep, they definitely would have been better served doing that.

Then again, using your words where Saunders is concerned, is it too much to expect that our coaching staff address those doubts before they extend a scholarship? They damn well shouldn't have signed him to an LOI.

Were you this upset back then, or did your mistake-free standard go into place at MU sometime after that, say around April of 2008?

The hypocrisy this whole thing has exposed is ridiculous.

Yes, I would have preferred that Crean not take a risk on a player he didn't think was qualified.  Sorry that I disappoint you--I know you'd be happier if I maintained the same attitude of deciding who the coach is before I decide if something is right or wrong.  Crean shouldn't have taken a chance. I'm not going to say he was right and Buzz was wrong.

But once he did, I think it would have been wrong for HIM to try and kick the player out--I think he was more honorable in that he didn't run Saunders off before Saunders had a chance to apply and qualify. Crean gave Saunders every chance and as much time as necessary to qualify.

I know you and I are going to disagree on the independence of the admissions office.  All I can tell you is that I've never met anyone from the MU admissions office that feels compelled to take orders from the AD office.  Coaches have long complained about the admissions office not taking their orders and rubber stamping them--from Majerus to Dukiet to Deane. 

Finally, yes, I do believe it would be in the best interest of the sport that both schools and players stay committed to each other for the one year period.   Too many players are asking out of their LOI, and I hope that Buzz is not starting a trend where schools sign players that they kick out before giving them every opportunity to prove themselves academically worthy. 

After one year, its fair game.  The NLI is for one year--scholarships are one-year renewable.  THAT is the escape that both sides have.  It is wrong for a school to issue a letter under a process than implies that both sides are committed to each other for a year, but then hides behind legal technicalities to get out of their end of the agreement.

I reject the notion that we can conclude that it was better for Roseboro or Saunders to go elsewhere.  I firmly believe we have better facilities and better coaching than Duquesne or St. Bonneventure--nobody knows how they would respond under MU had they been given a chance.  Amal McCaskill and Chris Crawford didn't look like great players when they first arrived either. 

Was the  NLI always just good for one year. It was only in the last couple of years that I became aware of this one year rule. Perhaps it was always this way, but coaches lived with their mistakes. I really do not see how teams can cut a player and then the player has to sit out a year at another school. I can understand it, if the player wants to leave but not if the school wants him to leave.

It's bizarre, and clearly disingenuous, how some continue to defend the Creaning of Damian Saunders with such nonsense as "they were waiting to see if he qualified."

Damian Saunders was fully qualified to participate at Marquette or any other school. If they were waiting to see if he qualified, then the answer would have kept him at MU.

"They were waiting for his final SAT scores"

Wrong again. The final SAT test that year was June 2. According to collegeboard.com, score are available on average in about 19 days. In other words. Marquette could have had the scores in hand as much as two months before deciding Saudners didn't meet their standards.

"But wait ... Marquette has super special, tougher standards."
Bull----. Marquette under the pprevious coach allowed in a non-qualifier, not to mentionkids who had significant clearinghouse issues. And yet a fully qualified kid was just too risky for Marquette's standards? Give me a break.

Why can't some simply admit the obvious? Damian Saunders was cut loose at the last minute, despite having fully qualified and signing a NLI, because Marquette signed too many players. Apparently this is acceptable. Just dont cut a kid loose two months later to sign another player.

As Saunders' coach at Duquense said:

"He got caught in a numbers game. They (Marquette) signed one too many players. He was the odd-man out."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07323/835119-135.stm

And as Chico's and Brad Forester can attest, Pennsylvania baksteball coaches are never wrong when it comes to these things.

Quote from: Pakuni on July 07, 2010, 10:42:24 PM
It's bizarre, and clearly disingenuous, how some continue to defend the Creaning of Damian Saunders with such nonsense as "they were waiting to see if he qualified."

Damian Saunders was fully qualified to participate at Marquette or any other school. If they were waiting to see if he qualified, then the answer would have kept him at MU.

"They were waiting for his final SAT scores"

Wrong again. The final SAT test that year was June 2. According to collegeboard.com, score are available on average in about 19 days. In other words. Marquette could have had the scores in hand as much as two months before deciding Saudners didn't meet their standards.

"But wait ... Marquette has super special, tougher standards."
Bull----. Marquette under the pprevious coach allowed in a non-qualifier, not to mentionkids who had significant clearinghouse issues. And yet a fully qualified kid was just too risky for Marquette's standards? Give me a break.

Why can't some simply admit the obvious? Damian Saunders was cut loose at the last minute, despite having fully qualified and signing a NLI, because Marquette signed too many players. Apparently this is acceptable. Just dont cut a kid loose two months later to sign another player.

As Saunders' coach at Duquense said:

"He got caught in a numbers game. They (Marquette) signed one too many players. He was the odd-man out."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07323/835119-135.stm

And as Chico's and Brad Forester can attest, Pennsylvania baksteball coaches are never wrong when it comes to these things.

I don't defend the move.  Saunders' NLI should have been honored.

I feel  there is a slight difference in the situations worth pointing out though.  With Saunders, I believe the oversigning was done with an expectation that a spot would open up with James' departure.  I agree that doing so was a mistake and poor judgment, and shouldn't have been handled that way.

With DJ, it seems that Buzz never stopped recruiting for the spot and let DJ go when a better player came along.  That's not a mistake, that's a decision.  I don't appreciate that decision, and I think most here agree to some extent.  Don't extend and sign a NLI that you don't fully intend to honor.  It's simple as that.

Quote from: Canadian Dimes on July 07, 2010, 09:19:46 AM
interesting news on the Victor Rudd situation.  makes sense we need a forward more than we need a 5th 2 guard.  I remember we recruited Rudd out of HS...pretty big time recruit if i recall...got kicked off his HS team tho and that seems to be a warning sign to me.

Victor Rudd got kicked off the Findlay Prep team here in Henderson, NV for fighting in the locker room with a teammate.  He failed to comply with the conditions to return to the team.  He is trouble with a capital T!

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/mar/04/rudd-leaves-findlay-prep/

Quote from: TJ on July 07, 2010, 11:15:04 PM
With DJ, it seems that Buzz never stopped recruiting for the spot and let DJ go when a better player came along.  That's not a mistake, that's a decision.  I don't appreciate that decision, and I think most here agree to some extent.  Don't extend and sign a NLI that you don't fully intend to honor.  It's simple as that.

I don't disagree. Regardless of whether DJ Newbill's place at Marquette was somehow conditional or not - and I won't pretend to know the answer - that's a bad way of handling business, and I've stated my opinion on that many times over the last week.

I raise the Saunders matter mostly to point of the hypocrisy of those who defended Crean's actions then, and continue to do so today, while portraying Williams as some kind of con man and charlatan.

For the record, IMO, oversigning is a bad idea and signing players to NLIs without a 100 percent intent to bring that player to MU also is a bad idea.

Quote from: Pakuni on July 07, 2010, 10:42:24 PM
It's bizarre, and clearly disingenuous, how some continue to defend the Creaning of Damian Saunders with such nonsense as "they were waiting to see if he qualified."

Damian Saunders was fully qualified to participate at Marquette or any other school. If they were waiting to see if he qualified, then the answer would have kept him at MU.

"They were waiting for his final SAT scores"

Wrong again. The final SAT test that year was June 2. According to collegeboard.com, score are available on average in about 19 days. In other words. Marquette could have had the scores in hand as much as two months before deciding Saudners didn't meet their standards.

And the final ACT test date was June 14th, and the the writing test could take 5 to 8 weeks to report. 8 weeks from June 14th would be August 9th.  

Add some time to evaluate--plus the fact that we only know when Crean made the announcement--not when the admissions office made the decision--and we find that there is a plausible timeline.

Do I know for sure that's what happened?  No.  

Do you know for sure it didn't?  No.

You simply don't have enough evidence to say I'm wrong--in fact, if you were honest with yourself, you have to admit that yes, this is a reasonable possibility.

Your personal opinion of its likelihood is irrelevant--you confuse your opinion with actual fact.

Quote from: Pakuni on July 07, 2010, 10:42:24 PM

"But wait ... Marquette has super special, tougher standards."
Bull----. Marquette under the pprevious coach allowed in a non-qualifier, not to mentionkids who had significant clearinghouse issues. And yet a fully qualified kid was just too risky for Marquette's standards? Give me a break.

You're the one that seems to be picky about having proof and evidence before throwing out accusations.

Do you know for a fact whether or not Marquette has standards above the NCAA minimums?  Do you know for a fact whether or not they weight recent performance more heavily than HS freshman year?   Of course you don't.  Once again, we have you projecting your opinion as proven fact.

It IS possible for MU to have more stringent guidelines than the NCAA, and it IS possible for MU to give more credece to a HS junior's or senior's performance than his freshman year.  Again, whether or not you think its likely is completely irrelevant.

I've given you a reasonable explanation on Wade consistent with the facts--he struggled early in HS, but by his senior year he was an honor role student.  Therefore, its easy to make the case that he was less risky than a marginal student that may have had a consistent (but low) GPA.  

Meanwhile Saunders didn't qualify as a HS senior--had to go to prep school for a year.  

So accepting Wade and rejecting Saunders is consistent with the known facts about both kids--if we accept that MU has different standards and weights latter performance more heavily.

So now I get to ask your opinion:  Which would be a better risk--a guy with a low GPA his freshman year but improved 3.0 (and honor role) his senior year? Or a guy who got through 5 years of HS (4 and year of prep) without showing such improvement but just barely getting a qualifying score?  

Under NCAA rules the former would be a partial qualifier, but the latter is fully qualified.  That is the fact.  You don't need to repeat them again.

But which do YOU think would represent a less risky choice?  And do you think its possible that the MU admissions office might reach the conclusion that a guy who made huge progress in HS is a better risk than a guy that didn't?    Bet you won't address these questions--because you KNOW the answers.  

Quote from: Pakuni on July 07, 2010, 10:42:24 PM
Why can't some simply admit the obvious? Damian Saunders was cut loose at the last minute, despite having fully qualified and signing a NLI, because Marquette signed too many players. Apparently this is acceptable. Just dont cut a kid loose two months later to sign another player.

Because its not obvious at all.  In fact, its obvious that Saunders would NOT have been the first choice to reach the scholarship limit. What is obvious to me is that Saunders would have been a tremendous addition to the team--on an undersized team, gaining a 6'7" 4 star recruit with 22 point/11 rebound HS stats from a state championship team (followed by double-digit rebounding on the national prep championship team) was clearly needed, and would have been a significant upgrade over Trend Blackldege or Pat Hazel to name two.

The obvious decision to me would have been to have Trend Blackledge leave the team to focus on his academics (much the same way that Buzz tried to do with Acker).  Blackledge had his shot and wound up missing half of the previous season due to academics, so this decision would be clearly justified and represent the best interests of both the player and the team.  Furthermore, both MU and Blackledge had fulfilled their mutual obligations under the NLI.

If an incoming player was going to be let go, it was obvious to me that it would have been Pat Hazel--clearly the least talented of the 4 incoming recruits that year (sort of like Roseboro last year or Newbill this year).  Second after Hazel would be Scott Christopherson--given our depth at guard.  Third would be Saunders, with only Mbakwe ahead of him among the incoming recruits.

Furthermore, if it was obvious that Saunders was the one that was going to go in order to reach the scholarship limit, his arrest would have been an easy justification--On June 30th we knew that James wasn't going to declare for the NBA draft, and that no other player was going to transfer--thus the arrest reported that day would have been a perfect opportunity IF it was obvious that Saunders was going to go to meet the scholarship limit.

What you want us to believe is that Saunders was otherwise a good academic fit with MU, that we really saw more talent and potential in Pat Hazel and Trend Blackledge, and that the admissions office was willing to lie about not having the grades, even though they were willing to overlook the drug arrest?

Time for YOU to give ME a break.

Quote from: Pakuni on July 07, 2010, 10:42:24 PM

As Saunders' coach at Duquense said:

Do you think that Marquette's admissions office shared their reasoning with the Duquesne coach?  

Let's look at motivations--the Duquesne coach could admit that his school's academics were lower than Marquette's and that's how Saunders became available.  Or he could protect his own school's reputation by pretending that it was a simply numbers game.

He chose the latter.  No big surprise there.

Quote from: Marquette84 on July 08, 2010, 09:17:31 AM
The obvious decision to me would have been to have Trend Blackledge leave the team to focus on his academics (much the same way that Buzz tried to do with Acker).

I thought you were actually making some sense until I hit that part.

For two relatively similar situations in which you acknowledge that none of us know the facts, you sure are spending a lot of time thinking up every possible hypothetical that makes MU look good for Saunders and bad for Newbill.

To quote one of our esteemed moderators...

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on July 06, 2010, 01:56:34 PM
The extent to which people are bending, twisting, and outright maligning, to fulfill their own prejudices is really stunning.

Quote from: Litehouse on July 08, 2010, 10:29:44 AM
I thought you were actually making some sense until I hit that part.

Perhaps you could explain what didn't make sense.

Chances are good that I can explain it.

Quote from: Litehouse on July 08, 2010, 10:29:44 AM
For two relatively similar situations

I don't think the situations are similar--there is one significant difference: One kid failed to gain admission after applying (Saunders), and another was asked to go away before he even had the chance (Newbill).

Perhaps I'm the only person here who has some belief in the fundamental independence of the admissions office, but if you believe MU's admissions office is independent from the coaching staff, then every other statement I made is consistent with other known facts.

Quote from: Litehouse on July 08, 2010, 10:29:44 AM
in which you acknowledge that none of us know the facts, you sure are spending a lot of time thinking up every possible hypothetical that makes MU look good for Saunders and bad for Newbill.

To quote one of our esteemed moderators...

I'm not the one who maligned the MU admission office by implying that they lied when they said Saunders didn't qualify due to his academics. 

I'm not the one who incorrectly suggested that there was no possibility for new data on Saunder's academics to come to light following the spring signing period.

I'm not the one who then misrepresented the last possible date for receiving scores by using the earlier SAT date (not the later ACT) and then excluding the timeframe for reporting the results of the writing test, which may have been requested.

I'm not the one who keeps suggesting that that Saunders was the only obvious option available to Crean in order to meet the scholarship limit as "proof" that the only reason we let Saunders go was to meet the scholarship limit.

I'm not the one who glosses over the substantial and documented differences between Wade's and Saunders' academic situations coming out of HS in order to "prove" that the MU admissions office doesn't really consider academic potential.

I'm not the one who claims we were "lucky" or "fortunate" to lose a quality big on a team that was short on such players.

Quote from: Litehouse on July 08, 2010, 10:29:44 AM
you sure are spending a lot of time thinking up every possible hypothetical that makes MU look good for Saunders and bad for Newbill.

And I'm responding to those who spend a lot of time trying to gloss over the differences in order to claim they're comparable. The fact of the matter is that one kid failed to gain admission after applying, and another was asked to go away before he even had the chance.

Now, Pakuni has every right to believe that MU lied about the reason we denied Saunders admission.  But he's not merely stating his case as a disagreement of opinion--he's stating that his opinion is fact. 

Pakuni

MU should not over sign players, PERIOD.  Over signing sucks.  It's a practice that MU started under Crean and is still in very much full effect under Buzz.  Some schools are still winning at very high levels without playing this game with recruits. It's unfortunate that MU is doing this, a bad practice that is allowed by the Big East conference.  Not all conferences allow it.  Even some conferences that do, elite teams are finding ways to win year in and year out without going down this practice.

It's very possible at the time of the Saunders incident I didn't say a thing, it's possible I defended the move, I don't recall.  I'm sure it's in the search function and Ners can pull it up.  After doing this now for several years, my opinion is we should not be doing this any longer.  It's not worth the stigma.

The ONLY reason to do it is when you sign marginally academic players who you think might not qualify academically so you're hedging a bet, OR, it's because you plan on buzz cutting \ Creaning someone off the team.

It's not something we have to do to be competitive.  It's not something "EVERYONE DOES" as I read here from time to time and no one can provide any meaningful examples to support the practice.

The question is....will Marquette continue this practice?  Why or why not? 

Quote from: Marquette84 on July 08, 2010, 12:02:49 PM
Perhaps you could explain what didn't make sense.

Chances are good that I can explain it.

Are you implying that Blackledge had the same off-the-court interests as Acker and could have been asked to "focus on his studies" because of that?  If you are, then I guess you have a point.  Or are you implying that Buzz was trying to get rid of Acker last year to make room for someone else?

Quote from: Marquette84 on July 08, 2010, 12:02:49 PM
The fact of the matter is that one kid failed to gain admission after applying, and another was asked to go away before he even had the chance.

Now, Pakuni has every right to believe that MU lied about the reason we denied Saunders admission.  But he's not merely stating his case as a disagreement of opinion--he's stating that his opinion is fact. 

Saying Newbill didn't even have the chance to get his application in sure sounds like stating your opinion as fact to me.  Newbill's oral commitment was reported on Jan. 30th, so he had 5 months to get the application in if he wanted to.

You've gone to great lengths to explain why the Saunders situation was acceptable while acknowledging that none of us really know the facts.  That's great and I applaud you for standing up for the honor of the MU admissions department.  But why do you think the Newbill situation doesn't have an equally acceptable explanation since none of us really know the facts there either?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 08, 2010, 12:11:42 PM
Pakuni

MU should not over sign players, PERIOD.  Over signing sucks.  It's a practice that MU started under Crean and is still in very much full effect under Buzz.  Some schools are still winning at very high levels without playing this game with recruits. It's unfortunate that MU is doing this, a bad practice that is allowed by the Big East conference.  Not all conferences allow it.  Even some conferences that do, elite teams are finding ways to win year in and year out without going down this practice.

I agree.  Stop the oversinging.  You end up with situations like Newbill and Saunders.

Quote from: MarquetteDano on July 08, 2010, 03:48:55 PM
I agree.  Stop the oversinging.  You end up with situations like Newbill and Saunders.

As a future non-football league (as many assume the Big East may be), oversigning may be here to stay.

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on July 08, 2010, 03:53:05 PM
As a future non-football league (as many assume the Big East may be), oversigning may be here to stay.

I think the Big East schools should turn the hoops world upside down, and declare that they are no longer going to recruit players.  Instead, they will invite the top hoops players in the US to the newly formed Big East Basketball Draft, and each school will take turns picking their players to fill 13 roster spots.   ;D

Quote from: Litehouse on July 08, 2010, 02:45:58 PM
Are you implying that Blackledge had the same off-the-court interests as Acker and could have been asked to "focus on his studies" because of that?  If you are, then I guess you have a point.  Or are you implying that Buzz was trying to get rid of Acker last year to make room for someone else?

No, that was not my intent, and I apologize for not making it more clear.

My intent was to show that both Acker and Blackledge were returning players no longer covered by an NLI.  I can go back through the years--I know there were other players who left the team but continued their studies--If I recall a number of Bob Dukiet's recruits fell into this category.

Quote from: Litehouse on July 08, 2010, 02:45:58 PM
Saying Newbill didn't even have the chance to get his application in sure sounds like stating your opinion as fact to me. 

This is a known fact.

Both sides made comments in the media that said the app was not submitted yet.  Couple this with the NLI which states that the application isn't yet due, and I don't think one can deny that Newbill never had the chance to have his application considered by the admissions office.

Quote from: Litehouse on July 08, 2010, 02:45:58 PM
Newbill's oral commitment was reported on Jan. 30th, so he had 5 months to get the application in if he wanted to.

Yes, he did have five months he could have done it. 
We also know that his application wasn't due yet.

Quote from: Litehouse on July 08, 2010, 02:45:58 PM
You've gone to great lengths to explain why the Saunders situation was acceptable while acknowledging that none of us really know the facts. 

There are some facts we know and some facts we don't. 

One fact we know about Saunders is that the admissions office reviewed his application
One fact we know about Newbill is that the admissions office did not review his application.

That makes these situations different.

Quote from: Litehouse on July 08, 2010, 02:45:58 PM
That's great and I applaud you for standing up for the honor of the MU admissions department.  But why do you think the Newbill situation doesn't have an equally acceptable explanation since none of us really know the facts there either?

Lots of people have offered explanations that are inconsistent with known fact.  One frequently cited one is that "Newbill knew he had a side arrangement to go to Prep School for a year".  Yet this statement is inconsistent with the known fact that the NLI explicitly prohibits such side deals. 

Do those people think the "no side deal" rule doesn't really apply to Marquette?  Do they think that MU could get away with it because we're different than all the other schools?  Do they think it's commonly ignored by all schools?  Do they just not realize that clause is part of the document?  I don't know.

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on July 08, 2010, 03:53:05 PM
As a future non-football league (as many assume the Big East may be), oversigning may be here to stay.

The irony is that oversigning started as a football technique, not a basketball technique.

MU can remain very very good without having to resort to it.

Chico thank you for your opinion on the subject for the 1000th time.

Quote from: NCMUFan on July 08, 2010, 10:25:47 PM
Chico thank you for your opinion on the subject for the 1000th time.

(http://site.despair.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/ignore.jpg)

Any stats on the winner of most frequently ignored?  I know who I would place my money on.

Quote from: NCMUFan on July 09, 2010, 08:36:36 AM
Any stats on the winner of most frequently ignored?  I know who I would place my money on.

I'd have to put my money on Marquette 84 simply due to the always lengthy replies.  I've never seen someone execute the multi quote rebuttal as well as 84.  My A.D.D usually kicks in after about the 3rd quoted statement of another poster...and most of his posts tend to dissect another poster's statement with 4-7 different quotes and subsequent lengthy rebuttals.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 08, 2010, 06:40:46 PM
The irony is that oversigning started as a football technique, not a basketball technique.

MU can remain very very good without having to resort to it.

I haven't read this thread since like 3 pages ago so I don't know if this has been argued, but the thing with oversigning is sometimes it isn't oversigning. It could just look like oversigning to those of us who aren't in the program. Maybe they know of someone transferring already, but it just hasn't been announced, so they sign someone to take that person's spot but at the moment to the public, that spot isn't open yet.

Quote from: NCMUFan on July 09, 2010, 08:36:36 AM
Any stats on the winner of most frequently ignored?  I know who I would place my money on.

Oh Valiant, you're so cute sometimes.

The winner was Canadian Dimes by a country mile, of course when he changes his username 5 times, there's no telling what the cumulative number is.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 09, 2010, 04:27:50 PM
Oh Valiant, you're so cute sometimes.

The winner was Canadian Dimes by a country mile, of course when he changes his username 5 times, there's no telling what the cumulative number is.

Hayward was going strong as undisputed top ignored..with you and me coming in a somewhat distant 2nd and 3rd respectively...I think my high point was 7 Scoopers Ignoring me...actually wish we could still view that data about someone...thought it was relevant and fun.

Chicos do you have the time to save clip art and photos for every occassion?