Video Summary Of Marquette's Newbill Recruitment

[NavinRJohnson]

But there should be no doubt that this was a bad decision.

Ohh, I doubt that plenty. The way the 'Newbill camp' has conductyed themselves in the days leading up to and following this, I can't conclude that this is anything but a good decision. Until someone can articulate a tangible negative impact of what went down on MU or the basketball program, in reputation or performance, I see no reason to change that opinion. As I said yesterday, aside from a few people who are choosing to be upset by this, nobody knows, let alone cares.

[3Mer]

As I said yesterday, aside from a few people who are choosing to be upset by this, nobody knows, let alone cares.

That's really the point, isn't it?  $crewing this kid over isn't measured by any standard of decency or ethics, but rather by the intensity of public reaction.  Ring out ahoya.

[NersEllenson]

This from a guy who thinks Forester joined sometime in the last few months to do some kind of conspiracy on MU?    How does the tinfoil fit?

Actually Ners, if you read my posts, I said the truth is probably in the middle.....pretty much what you just said, all it takes is a little reading.   But the idea that we have to buy Buzz's account 100% is ludicrous and only paints people as complete lap dogs and blind to common sense.

Chicos - I was well aware Brad joined MUScoop well prior to posting his first video on DJ...and I stated that in an earlier post.  My point was that Brad's videos and posts increased and coincided with Phillly Coach appearing on MUScoop.  I don't have a beef with Brad..but do think he very likely is being used by the Newbill camp to advance their agenda/propoganda.  As you said, the truth lies in the middle..so why continue to belabor this issue?  Just let it go...you aren't going to change the minds of those who believe differently than you...

[burger]

Looks like the Newbilll camp was "atleast" third in the "chow" line and was told that "prep" school was the only way he was going to make it to Marquette.....

What you hear....and what "you choose" to believe are where the grey area exists!

Wilson was Plan 1.....

Here is Plan 2.....

Transfer forward Rudd to sign with USF today
It'll be a year before he can play for the Bulls, but small forward Victor Rudd, a 6-foot-8 transfer from Arizona State, will sign with USF today.

"I felt like it was the best fit for me," said Rudd, who visited USF's campus last week. "They play up-and-down basketball, which I love, and they'll let me play the 3 (small forward). I like that I'll be playing in the best conference in college basketball."

Rudd said he chose the Bulls over Marquette, St. John's, Miami and San Diego State, and he will sit out the 2010-11 season and will then have three years of eligibility

Was there a Plan 3 or 4.....

Buzz had even said so for months that one of the recruits would definetly be going to Prep school.....

Pretty funny a kid tried to storm the gates to get into a school of his choosing......

New strategy....That is for sure....

[Canadian Dimes]

I do recall this quite well - it was an opportunity to call into question Buzz, thus Chico's took it..just as he is doing with the Newbill scholarship revocation.  I think everyone here agrees that we don't like what transpired....BUT....to continue to belabor and make Buzz/MU the bad guy by one of our own Alumni - Chicos - makes this start to feel more like a personal agenda and axe to grind, than it does to debate the actual event.  And, the actual event has been way, way over-debated at this point already.  The truth lies somewhere in the middle between what the Newbill Camp alledges, and what the IWB account is..there is no reason to discount IWB's version 100% and to believe Newbill's version 100%.  Let it go Chicos..we all know how you feel on the matter.

The answer is quite simple...chicos does not like Buzz cutting but he is OK with Creaning.  using my definitions...  Chicos would be Ok with it if a 800th player in the class , whom i might add Crean was great at signing, got run off for a player of equal or lesser talent.   This apparently OK with chico but when a player gets buzz cut for a top 100 player this is not Ok.

personally I am ok with Buzz cutting.  the old Creaning, ie Bell for Berkowitz, etc. etc. etc got old and was pathetic

[chapman]

Ohh, I doubt that plenty. The way the 'Newbill camp' has conductyed themselves in the days leading up to and following this, I can't conclude that this is anything but a good decision. Until someone can articulate a tangible negative impact of what went down on MU or the basketball program, in reputation or performance, I see no reason to change that opinion. As I said yesterday, aside from a few people who are choosing to be upset by this, nobody knows, let alone cares.

I think we need to look at the decision that was made before calling it good or bad, since some have seemingly forgot what it even was.  The decision wasn't "do I screw over the kid or not?"  The decision was whether or not to accept Jamil Wilson.  Buzz could have chosen to tell him to look elsewhere, or he could accept him and take  the scholarship from Newbill.  

Similarly, this isn't at all a "lesson on oversigning".  How often do 4-star, top 100 transfers become available in late June?  I don't know if the actual decision above was correct, though I agree that Newbill's "publicists" are having the opposite effect from what was intended and making it seem like it wasn't as difficult a decision as originally thought.  I disagree completely that it's a good idea to leave a scholarship open for transfers or Noreen-esque stragglers in late June.  Maybe in late April, but not late June.  A player like Wilson coming in is rare, and in every other year you're forced to bank a scholarship or left with whatever is at the very bottom of the barrel, effectively self-imposing a one scholarship penalty on the program.  So I guess I'm not clear on what the "lessons learned" are...what exactly do you do differently to prevent this from happening again?  You either turn down the late commit or transfer or you go into most seasons a player short because you wanted to be prepared just in case another Wilson wants to come.

[Canadian Dimes]

interesting news on the Victor Rudd situation.  makes sense we need a forward more than we need a 5th 2 guard.  I remeber we recruited Rudd out of HS...pretty big time recruit if i recall...got kicked off his HS team tho and that seems to be a warning sign to me. 


OBTW...if chicos is sooo annoying and he is incredibly annoying just use the ignore button and the board get 100x less viotrolic towards MU, Buzz , and Mu basketball...sort of like a Mu fan board should be. 

[TJ]

Buzz had even said so for months that one of the recruits would definetly be going to Prep school.....

Pretty funny a kid tried to storm the gates to get into a school of his choosing......

New strategy....That is for sure....

I was trying really hard to stay out of this thread, but...

How is there any way you could possibly believe what you typed there?  DJ has complied with MU's wishes 100% in this case.  He was understandably upset and he let some of that out; it's not like he's trying to hold them to the fire to accept his NLI or anything.  He said he would sign a request for release when asked.  He's moving on looking for another home.  All the talk around here is by people completely unrelated to DJ - you can't possibly attribute their words to him.  Where in the world are you getting "tried to storm the gates to get into a school of his choosing." 

I would add that by signing the NLI, MU said they were "choosing" DJ too, but that obviously makes no difference to some.  Either way, I don't get the villainization of DJ.

[TJ]

That's really the point, isn't it?  $crewing this kid over isn't measured by any standard of decency or ethics, but rather by the intensity of public reaction.  Ring out ahoya.

+1

[GGGG]

Ohh, I doubt that plenty. The way the 'Newbill camp' has conductyed themselves in the days leading up to and following this, I can't conclude that this is anything but a good decision. Until someone can articulate a tangible negative impact of what went down on MU or the basketball program, in reputation or performance, I see no reason to change that opinion. As I said yesterday, aside from a few people who are choosing to be upset by this, nobody knows, let alone cares.

Even if you believe that the whole prep school thing was above board, signing the kid to a NLI, and then asking him for a release later, was a bad decision.

If no other reason than the negative reaction that it has caused.

[Marquette84]

Yeah, Chico's, I clearly remember your outrage over Damian Saunders being shown the door the same week classes began, a move that oh-so-conveniently solved Marquette's oversigning problem. How fortunate Marquette was to discover at about the last possible moment that a full qualified kid didn't meet their arbitrary (and, apparently, shifting) standards
Phew, we lucked out that time. If not for the last-minute discovery of Saunders' academic issues, someone might have accused Marquette of doing something "damn sad." I don't know about you, but I've heard that after June, every possible opportunity out there for a kid is trash.

Oh wait, I don't remember your outrage after all. Cause there was none.
Hmmm ... I wonder why that is.

There was no outrage because this was not a player that we gave up on before he even arrived on campus.

You don't have a scintilla of evidence to suggest that Marquette wanted Damian Saunders off the team.   You don't have any evidence that MU was giving him every opportunity to qualify, waiting until every possible test date had passed.

Maybe Saunders didn't formally submit his application until August.
Maybe MU was waiting for the final SAT scores to come in.

Unless you KNOW these two things to be false, they are just as plausible (if not more plausible) than your accusations.

[GGGG]

Pretty funny a kid tried to storm the gates to get into a school of his choosing......

Yeah...."stormed the gates" by signing the NLI that was offered to him.  

[Marquette84]

DJ self repoted the offer to Rosiak when he originally committed. You (or anyone who cares to) can look it up.

And Rosiak independently confirmed it, hence its reported as fact without attribution or quote.  

As you said, everyone knows players will invent offers that don't exist---why do you think Rosiak would be so incompetent as to accept a player's word and not confirm independently?

[ChicosBailBonds]

That's really the point, isn't it?  $crewing this kid over isn't measured by any standard of decency or ethics, but rather by the intensity of public reaction.  Ring out ahoya.

Ding ding ding....well said.  The entire concept of what the right thing to do is has been totally lost for some people.  I honestly never thought I'd see this from the MU fan base.  Kentucky, Memphis, USC...yes.  Badger football fans...yes.  MU, nope.

And the trashing of an 18 year old kid, his family, posters that are questioning our motives, is beyond the pale.  Nothing worse than seeing people trash 18 year old kids and calling them liars (directly or indirectly) along with their families.  It's not right.

[ChicosBailBonds]

And Rosiak independently confirmed it, hence its reported as fact without attribution or quote.  

As you said, everyone knows players will invent offers that don't exist---why do you think Rosiak would be so incompetent as to accept a player's word and not confirm independently?

Plus multiple recruiting sites saying the same thing.  Ho hum....remember, you are not to believe the recruiting sites in THIS instance, but other instances it's ok...when others tell you so.   

[NavinRJohnson]

Ding ding ding....well said.  The entire concept of what the right thing to do is has been totally lost for some people.  

I agree, as some would argue that accepting a kid into a program where he is likely to be in over his head, not play, have a high likelihood of transferring, etc., be it for grades, athletics, or what have you, is not doing the right thing.

Do you know if the MU staff had any doubts about his academic ability? No you don't.
Do you know if the MU staff had any doubts about his athletic ability? No you don't.
Do you know if the MU staff had any doubts about his commitment to do the work? No you don't.
Do you know if any of the above were realized after the NLI was signed? No you don't.
Do you know if they did/did not make him fully aware that this was a possibility? No you don't.

You have made the decision to give the benefit of the doubt to a couple guys with an internet connection and a video camera over Buzz Williams, so let's just call it what it actually is...You see it in black and white that Buzz Williams screwed this kid over, messed up his life, etc. (lets be more dramatic), because the coach involved was Buzz Williams, a hire you opposed at the time, and now you are looking for whatever you can to justify that position, as he represents the University in impeccable fashion and recruits circles around your hero who had the job before him. That's it. You defended the previous guy for similar things, but now it is not the Marquette way. Gimmie and effing break!

[Litehouse]

Even if Newbill did have an offer from WVU, that doesn't mean it was an unconditional offer, or that it was even better than any conditions MU may have had on their offer, or that WVU would even accept a verbal from Newbill.  We just don't know.  Schools always have way more offers out there than spots available, and Crean is one of the more prolific with this practice.  But they're often conditional on other events, like if the school's first choice goes elsewhere, if someone transfers, if someone enters the draft early, or if it's between 2 players and whoever commits first gets the spot, etc.  Conditional offers are extremely common and they all just get reported as "offers" by the players and the recruiting services.  However, all "offers" aren't equal.  I have no idea what type of offer Newbill had from WVU, none of us do, but we can't just assume that Newbill would be in Morgantown right now if he wouldn't have signed with MU.

[Marquette84]

Do you know if the MU staff had any doubts about his academic ability? No you don't.
Do you know if the MU staff had any doubts about his athletic ability? No you don't.
Do you know if the MU staff had any doubts about his commitment to do the work? No you don't.
Do you know if any of the above were realized after the NLI was signed? No you don't.
Do you know if they did/did not make him fully aware that this was a possibility? No you don't.

Is it too much to expect that our coaching staff address those doubts before they extend a scholarship?

I don't know with certainty if the MU staff had the doubts you raise--nor do you.

What I do know is that if they DID still have those doubts, they damn well shouldn't have signed him to an LOI.

[mu_hilltopper]

Is it too much to expect that our coaching staff address those doubts before they extend a scholarship?

I don't know with certainty if the MU staff had the doubts you raise--nor do you.

What I do know is that if they DID still have those doubts, they damn well shouldn't have signed him to an LOI.

Ding ding ding.  Winner.

[NavinRJohnson]

Is it too much to expect that our coaching staff address those doubts before they extend a scholarship?

I don't know with certainty if the MU staff had the doubts you raise--nor do you.

What I do know is that if they DID still have those doubts, they damn well shouldn't have signed him to an LOI.

So if they came to realize that signing him (or any other player) to the NLI was a mistake (and I am not necessarily saying that's what happened), your position is that they should bring him into MU anyway, even though they have concerns that he is not going to make it? That is doing the right thing in your odd little basketball world? You'd rather have them not admit to a mistake, regardless of the timing, then do what they think is best for both MU and the player involved? 

Using that logic, both Damian Saunders and Brett Roseboro would have been better off coming to MU and wasting a year (two once they sit out), before they washed out.  Yep, they definitely would have been better served doing that.

Then again, using your words where Saunders is concerned, is it too much to expect that our coaching staff address those doubts before they extend a scholarship? They damn well shouldn't have signed him to an LOI.

Were you this upset back then, or did your mistake-free standard go into place at MU sometime after that, say around April of 2008?

The hypocrisy this whole thing has exposed is ridiculous.

[Litehouse]

What I do know is that if they DID still have those doubts, they damn well shouldn't have signed him to an LOI.

Is anyone really disagreeing with this?  We're all talking ourselves blue in the face, or at least typing until our fingers tips are numb, about the minor details, but I bet 95% of the people here can agree with that.  Unless something changed after the signing, but that's just one of those details.

[burger]

Now you guys are arguing "do you put the cart before the horse"?????

Should we get stuck a player down perennially because we are waiting on a recruit to decide....

How many times as that happenned and we ended up with the 300th player from a JC that no one has heard from....(remember Crean's desperation end of the bench....out of time recruits)

Going to MU on a basketball scholarship is an achievement that "should"  be guaranteed to a select few of the top 100 basketball HS seniors in the country....

I have no problem with Buzz's methods.....Neither does the NCAA.....If you have a problem.....Give up your season tickets!

Your other methods have led to a level of unintended "NCAA violations".....Brad your a stupid fool.....At least read the rules before you do stupid S__T!.....You are at least.....Not a "friend" of the program.....PS.....You may want to get a lawyer......

The victim role played well for Newbill until he was told he was violating NCAA rules!

We will never know the full story.....Because MU is probably pretty versed in conducting themselves professionally.....As some of you gentlemen have showed that you are not!

And this is assuming that Buzz did everything you accuse him of.....I am of the opinion he did the least and this "story" is pretty much completely contrived by the Newbill camp.....

[Lennys Tap]

So if they came to realize that signing him (or any other player) to the NLI was a mistake (and I am not necessarily saying that's what happened), your position is that they should bring him into MU anyway, even though they have concerns that he is not going to make it? That is doing the right thing in your odd little basketball world? You'd rather have them not admit to a mistake, regardless of the timing, then do what they think is best for both MU and the player involved?  

Using that logic, both Damian Saunders and Brett Roseboro would have been better off coming to MU and wasting a year (two once they sit out), before they washed out.  Yep, they definitely would have been better served doing that.

Then again, using your words where Saunders is concerned, is it too much to expect that our coaching staff address those doubts before they extend a scholarship? They damn well shouldn't have signed him to an LOI.

Were you this upset back then, or did your mistake-free standard go into place at MU sometime after that, say around April of 2008?

The hypocrisy this whole thing has exposed is ridiculous.

Ding,ding,ding. Old winner denied admission.(al a Damian Saunders) New winner.

[Marquette84]

So if they came to realize that signing him (or any other player) to the NLI was a mistake (and I am not necessarily saying that's what happened), your position is that they should bring him into MU anyway, even though they have concerns that he is not going to make it? That is doing the right thing in your odd little basketball world? You'd rather have them not admit to a mistake, regardless of the timing, then do what they think is best for both MU and the player involved? 

Using that logic, both Damian Saunders and Brett Roseboro would have been better off coming to MU and wasting a year (two once they sit out), before they washed out.  Yep, they definitely would have been better served doing that.

Then again, using your words where Saunders is concerned, is it too much to expect that our coaching staff address those doubts before they extend a scholarship? They damn well shouldn't have signed him to an LOI.

Were you this upset back then, or did your mistake-free standard go into place at MU sometime after that, say around April of 2008?

The hypocrisy this whole thing has exposed is ridiculous.

Yes, I would have preferred that Crean not take a risk on a player he didn't think was qualified.  Sorry that I disappoint you--I know you'd be happier if I maintained the same attitude of deciding who the coach is before I decide if something is right or wrong.  Crean shouldn't have taken a chance. I'm not going to say he was right and Buzz was wrong.

But once he did, I think it would have been wrong for HIM to try and kick the player out--I think he was more honorable in that he didn't run Saunders off before Saunders had a chance to apply and qualify. Crean gave Saunders every chance and as much time as necessary to qualify.

I know you and I are going to disagree on the independence of the admissions office.  All I can tell you is that I've never met anyone from the MU admissions office that feels compelled to take orders from the AD office.  Coaches have long complained about the admissions office not taking their orders and rubber stamping them--from Majerus to Dukiet to Deane. 

Finally, yes, I do believe it would be in the best interest of the sport that both schools and players stay committed to each other for the one year period.   Too many players are asking out of their LOI, and I hope that Buzz is not starting a trend where schools sign players that they kick out before giving them every opportunity to prove themselves academically worthy. 

After one year, its fair game.  The NLI is for one year--scholarships are one-year renewable.  THAT is the escape that both sides have.  It is wrong for a school to issue a letter under a process than implies that both sides are committed to each other for a year, but then hides behind legal technicalities to get out of their end of the agreement.

I reject the notion that we can conclude that it was better for Roseboro or Saunders to go elsewhere.  I firmly believe we have better facilities and better coaching than Duquesne or St. Bonneventure--nobody knows how they would respond under MU had they been given a chance.  Amal McCaskill and Chris Crawford didn't look like great players when they first arrived either. 

[bilsu]

Was the  NLI always just good for one year. It was only in the last couple of years that I became aware of this one year rule. Perhaps it was always this way, but coaches lived with their mistakes. I really do not see how teams can cut a player and then the player has to sit out a year at another school. I can understand it, if the player wants to leave but not if the school wants him to leave.