Is the hiring process still flawed??

[mviale]

Chicos - call off the search engines and just be happy Marquette hired Buzz and that he signed a great recruit today.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos - call off the search engines and just be happy Marquette hired Buzz and that he signed a great recruit today.

I'm thrilled Buzz did. This kid is a stud player, there is no doubt about that.  Let's hope he can get the grades up and some of the off court issues (rumors of a suspension in high school for 'running with the wrong crowd') are a thing of the past.

I actually found it, too, (the reference of Maymon wanting to be a Badger early on).  It was an email not on a site.  I knew I had read it somewhere.  I'll not reveal who sent it unless that person wishes to do so, he can here (he is a frequent poster).   Essentially says he grew up wanting to play at Wisconsin and a few other places (typical locations kids grow up wanting to play...the national favorites).  However, does not like Bo's style (there's hope for this kid  ) and in addition to that, originally the father said a two for one with the other son to Bo.  Of course Bo said no thanks, as he should have.

Went on to say he would never ever play for Wisconsin as long as Ryan's system was in place.  They were keeping an eye on him on the recruiting front but no offers nor did they (Maymons) expect any.

[Marquette84]

So far, so good but let's put it into context.

MU won Maymon because Wisconsin didn't go after him.  The kid flat out stated UW-madison was his NUMBER ONE choice.  UW-Madison didn't recruit the kid because of grades and a few other reasons....so I'm not sure that one counts.

What about Baylor, Iowa State, Kentucky, Minnesota, USC, Indiana, Providence, Washington State & UWGB?  Did the kid flat out state that MU was #2 all along, and he was holding everyone off just waiting for MU to come calling?  

Interesting that the National Coach of the Year couldn't get Maymon to hold off on making a commitment to MU today, despite PC's obvious interest and need.

Come on--everyone knows that Wisconsin wasn't the competition here.  That doesn't mean its a cakewalk for MU.

Second, is Jimmy Butler a better player then Nick Williams?  I don't think anyone can say that yet.

Certainly not me.  Your response, however, is written in a way that suggests that I did say that.  Sorry, but this is a fabrication.  I never said that Butler was better than Nick Williams.  What I *DID* say was that Butler plugged an immediate hole in the roster that was created when Williams left.  

Now, to quote someone from this board:
I'll wait for your apology

The process remains and always will be flawed.  It was a risky hire...let's hope it works out...so far...so good...especially if our stud recruit today is academically eligible.

What flaws?  Because we didn't prioritize a known bench coach rather than a know recruiter?


BTW, your stock answer of "Buzz would have been there a week later" is not necessarily true.  

Here's one very conceivable scenario:  You interview Brownell, and for whatever reason, you ignore concerns over fit with the current administration, continuity with current team, and proven recruiting ability because you believe the Colonial Conference coach of the year is the man to take Marquette to the next level.

If you hire Brownell, then Buzz isn't around a week later.  

Neither is Fulce.   Neither is Otule.   Neither is Jimmy Butler.   Neither is Erik Williams.  Neither is Jeronne Maymon.  I don't know if both James and McNeal would leave--but I'd put the odds at 50/50 each, so let's say we only lose one of them.

Now, I don't know about you, but I would call the process that would cause the likely roster loss of Fulce, Otule, Butler, Williams Maymon and either James or McNeall as "flawed"--perhaps even more flawed than promoting an assistant with proven recruiting chops.

[mviale]

Guys - Its Marquette.

[ChicosBailBonds]

84...Well then, anyone we would have recruited would have filled the hole that Nick Williams left...Mother Teresa would have filled the hole if you're going down that path.  Yes, a body does fill that hole.

I interpreted your comments as Nick Williams was gone but Jimmy Butler is here to fill the hole he left.  I'll man up, something Hayward can't do....I apologize if that wasn't your intention.


On the Wisconsin thing....again, if I'm misinterpreting, then by all means I apologize.  I took your comments to mean we got "big" from the state of Wisconsin, something we haven't been able to do in a long time in winning over a recruit from the Badger state.  Only problem with that is the last 4 recruits we've lost have all been to the Wisconsin Badgers.  The Badgers were not giving an offer to Maymon so the shine of winning this big seems a bit different then the others we have lost to UW-Madison in the past....simply because UW-Madison wasn't a player involved in the recruitment.

On your last point...I'd be curious exactly where Buzz was going to be other then at Marquette or Indiana (as an assistant...which wasn't going to happen because Crean was pushing for Buzz to take the MU job which is why he didn't take him to begin with)....or more importantly, what head coaching job was he going to be at other then Marquette?

You do realize that Crean wanted Buzz to get this gig...right?  MU went after Miller and Bennett and in the background was Buzz as the next option with Crean pushing hard.  Buzz wasn't going anywhere...absolutely not going anywhere if MU wanted to wait another week.  NOWHERE!

[ATWizJr]

MU 84 - +1

Chico's- I understand the concerns that you and others have about the process.  But, even though it is early, ya' gotta' be impressed with the initial results.  The best is yet to come.  Plenty of time to criticize if things don't work out in the future.  For now, I am going to enjoy the commitment from Maymon and be excited about our future!

[Pakuni]

I'm thrilled Buzz did. This kid is a stud player, there is no doubt about that.  Let's hope he can get the grades up and some of the off court issues (rumors of a suspension in high school for 'running with the wrong crowd') are a thing of the past.

I actually found it, too, (the reference of Maymon wanting to be a Badger early on).  It was an email not on a site.  I knew I had read it somewhere.  I'll not reveal who sent it unless that person wishes to do so, he can here (he is a frequent poster).   Essentially says he grew up wanting to play at Wisconsin and a few other places (typical locations kids grow up wanting to play...the national favorites).  However, does not like Bo's style (there's hope for this kid  ) and in addition to that, originally the father said a two for one with the other son to Bo.  Of course Bo said no thanks, as he should have.

So, your story has gone from "the kid flat out stated UW-madison was his NUMBER ONE choice" to an anoymous guy on a message board sending you an e-mail claiming a kid from Madison grew up wanting to play for the hometown team and a few other places but later concluded that he didn't want to play at UW.

Hmmm. That's a bit different from what you first said, which obviously was a not-so-subtle dig at Buzz, claiming he was feeding off of Bo Ryan's table scraps.

I don't doubt that the kid was interested in UW. I'd say that places him with about 99 percent of the rest of the kids growing up playing basketball in the state, especially if they live north of Milwaukee and west of Waukesha. But that and what you said are not the same thing.

FWIW, I also have received e-mails/PMs from people on this and other message boards claiming inside information they didn't want to share with the entire board. I won't say what those claims were or who made them to save those people the embarrassment, but more often than not those claims have been proven false. Suffice to say we have  people cruising these boards who (gasp!) don't have a clue yet love to claim they have access to information the rest of us do not.

[MR.HAYWARD]

Guys that is simply how Chicos works.  For two full years he posted thousands of times in defense of Mike Deane despite his indefensible willingness to let what oneil had built slide.  deane's absolute inability to recruit and the w/l slide was clear to all.  Many fans applauded Cords for stepping in early and making the change.  Chicken little i guess would have rather waited another year or two to have things completely implode.  Well crean got the brunt of what Deane created in his first two years.  nevertheless, while may were applauding MU's move Cicos made thousands of posts defending deane and fearing how this would negatively effect MU, that is in between name dropping.  Classic chicken little that hedges every staement and every bet, classic bill clintion in that every statement is hedged with an out and an "I never said that"  or a 'it's actually in an email i cannot divulge".  Classic politician to be on whatever side looks best down the road.  Anyone want to take bets on how long it is until we get a post that chicos was just in a meeting with buzz wiliams and they are best buddies now?  the classic name dropper will get his name dropped here in about a week when i am in Milwaukee.

[MR.HAYWARD]

oh by the way....  was this the article that stated Williams was going to follow Crean to IU?  Or was the only snaow balls chance in hell of Willimas considering Iu was if Buzz went there. 

Q. Was MU in on these kids before Buzz Williams joined the Marquette staff?

A. I doubt very seriously that Marquette was anything more than Dwyane Wade's old school before Buzz arrived. Actually, after the results of Karon Bradley (from the same HS as Erik Williams), it was a very long shot for you guys to land another kid from that very same high school, especially an underclassman. That just simply proves the impact of pre-existing relationships in recruiting

[ChicosBailBonds]

MU 84 - +1

Chico's- I understand the concerns that you and others have about the process.  But, even though it is early, ya' gotta' be impressed with the initial results.  The best is yet to come.  Plenty of time to criticize if things don't work out in the future.  For now, I am going to enjoy the commitment from Maymon and be excited about our future!

Yup, and I've said so far so good.....on numerous occasions. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

I see Hayward is not capable of apologizing when I gave you the direct quotes from his high school coach.  Typical in how you operate.

What's next, another proclamation on a recruit being the best ever when it takes 10 seconds to find other recruits that were rated higher?

[ChicosBailBonds]

So, your story has gone from "the kid flat out stated UW-madison was his NUMBER ONE choice" to an anoymous guy on a message board sending you an e-mail claiming a kid from Madison grew up wanting to play for the hometown team and a few other places but later concluded that he didn't want to play at UW.

Hmmm. That's a bit different from what you first said, which obviously was a not-so-subtle dig at Buzz, claiming he was feeding off of Bo Ryan's table scraps.

I don't doubt that the kid was interested in UW. I'd say that places him with about 99 percent of the rest of the kids growing up playing basketball in the state, especially if they live north of Milwaukee and west of Waukesha. But that and what you said are not the same thing.

FWIW, I also have received e-mails/PMs from people on this and other message boards claiming inside information they didn't want to share with the entire board. I won't say what those claims were or who made them to save those people the embarrassment, but more often than not those claims have been proven false. Suffice to say we have  people cruising these boards who (gasp!) don't have a clue yet love to claim they have access to information the rest of us do not.

Sigh....if this person would like to state it publicly, he can.  He's a well respected poster with good information. 

And no, I was not taking a swipe at Buzz....what are you is grandmother?  Watching her cubs?  The kid grew up wanting to play for Wisconsin, Wisconsin didn't recruit him in a meaningful way....does that make it easier to get a recruit?  Any answer less than yes would be amazing.  Is that a shot at Buzz?  No.  It's reality.  When MU beats Wisconsin head to head for a recruit they both want, then that will be something.  This is a great get by Buzz, but one made a lot easier with Wisconsin not coming to the table.  How that is a shot at Buzz I don't know.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Guys that is simply how Chicos works.  For two full years he posted thousands of times in defense of Mike Deane despite his indefensible willingness to let what oneil had built slide.  deane's absolute inability to recruit and the w/l slide was clear to all.  Many fans applauded Cords for stepping in early and making the change.  Chicken little i guess would have rather waited another year or two to have things completely implode.  Well crean got the brunt of what Deane created in his first two years.  nevertheless, while may were applauding MU's move Cicos made thousands of posts defending deane and fearing how this would negatively effect MU, that is in between name dropping.  Classic chicken little that hedges every staement and every bet, classic bill clintion in that every statement is hedged with an out and an "I never said that"  or a 'it's actually in an email i cannot divulge".  Classic politician to be on whatever side looks best down the road.  Anyone want to take bets on how long it is until we get a post that chicos was just in a meeting with buzz wiliams and they are best buddies now?  the classic name dropper will get his name dropped here in about a week when i am in Milwaukee.

Never met Buzz Williams but seems like a nice guy.  Here again, I will admit what I said, something you continue to be incapable of doing.  Yes, I was upset about Deane being fired....believed he should have been given another year.  Deane was great to me and my family so that meant something to me.  I also said, which you don't include, that I was 100% behind Crean once the decision was made.  Look, you didn't like Crean which is fine.  I didn't like Crean either, but he was doing a great job for Marquette so the benefit of the doubt was going to be given.

Hell, I like Buzz Williams...seems like a terrific guy.  Don't know about coaching or anything else, but seems like a terrific guy.  Want very much for him to succeed.  Still think the hiring was risky and will never change that opinion.  Just as I think the signing of Maymon is very risky.  High risk = high reward...or high failure.  We shall see what happens.

Now....who is that 4th starter you talk of and where's the apology....or are you incapable of it? 

[Pakuni]

Sigh....if this person would like to state it publicly, he can.  He's a well respected poster with good information. 

Great. But it's entirely irrelevant.
Even if this so-called insider is 100 percent accurate, what he's telling you is a far, far cry from what you claimed initially.

Let's look at your two statements:

 9:59 p.m. -- "MU won Maymon because Wisconsin didn't go after him.  The kid flat out stated UW-madison was his NUMBER ONE choice. "

10:57 p.m. -- "Essentially says he grew up wanting to play at Wisconsin and a few other places (typical locations kids grow up wanting to play...the national favorites).  However, does not like Bo's style (there's hope for this kid   ) and in addition to that, originally the father said a two for one with the other son to Bo."

These two statements are nothing alike. In fact, the second contradicts the first. On the one hand, you have Jeronne saying unequivocally that UW was his first choice. Less than an hour later, you've got someone else telling you (aka hearsay, aka not Jeronne himself) that Jeronne at one time wanted to play for Bucky, among others, but was turned off by the style of play they use now and into the foreseeable future.

Why do you bother to defend yourself on this?

[MR.HAYWARD]

this reminds me of the Clinton impeachment...

Chicos...what "is" your definition of "is"....

[ChicosBailBonds]

Great. But it's entirely irrelevant.
Even if this so-called insider is 100 percent accurate, what he's telling you is a far, far cry from what you claimed initially.

Let's look at your two statements:

 9:59 p.m. -- "MU won Maymon because Wisconsin didn't go after him.  The kid flat out stated UW-madison was his NUMBER ONE choice. "

10:57 p.m. -- "Essentially says he grew up wanting to play at Wisconsin and a few other places (typical locations kids grow up wanting to play...the national favorites).  However, does not like Bo's style (there's hope for this kid   ) and in addition to that, originally the father said a two for one with the other son to Bo."

These two statements are nothing alike. In fact, the second contradicts the first. On the one hand, you have Jeronne saying unequivocally that UW was his first choice. Less than an hour later, you've got someone else telling you (aka hearsay, aka not Jeronne himself) that Jeronne at one time wanted to play for Bucky, among others, but was turned off by the style of play they use now and into the foreseeable future.

Why do you bother to defend yourself on this?

And no, I was not taking a swipe at Buzz....what are you is grandmother?  Watching her cubs?  The kid grew up wanting to play for Wisconsin, Wisconsin didn't recruit him in a meaningful way....does that make it easier to get a recruit?  Any answer less than yes would be amazing.  Is that a shot at Buzz?  No.  It's reality.  When MU beats Wisconsin head to head for a recruit they both want, then that will be something.  This is a great get by Buzz, but one made a lot easier with Wisconsin not coming to the table.  How that is a shot at Buzz I don't know.


The email I got did say the kid wanted to play at Wisconsin and told his JMM coaches and classmates this.  I'd call that a statement...but since the no one was there with a microphone it didn't happen..right?  Sigh

[ChicosBailBonds]

this reminds me of the Clinton impeachment...

Chicos...what "is" your definition of "is"....

Of the 5 or 6 usernames that you were banned under at rivals, etc...which one was your favorite?

[RawdogDX]

If you hit on 19 because the dealer is showing a ten it is a bad move even if the next card is a two.

If you have 0 interviews for an AD and that AD then barley preforms a search and hires a head coach internally it is a bad move even if the guy is the next john wooden.  

If someone from another school walked up to you and said that they interviewed no one for their ad job and that ad interviewed no one for the hc job and promoted a guy internally partially because of the recommendation of the past head coach you'd say: "Wow, good luck with that."  

That said we seem to have had good luck and selecting a coach can't be reduced basic math like black jack can.  We probably got the best coach available, buzz is probably going to  be very successful.  (yeah! lets all be happy)  A process that was more involved may have swayed the decision to a bad choice so perhaps not searching for an AD who would have put in sometime pursuing other avenues was a good thing.  ($h!t happens to smart, thorough, people to)

Buzz looks like he might be the real deal and people seem to think that his success/failior will show that the process was 'good or bad'.  But he's a individual case and the people who have problems with the process are speaking in general.  

Nothing anyone can say or anything buzz can do will ever convince me that the best hiring process for ANY organization is to not interview qualified candidates and assume that they already know the best person for the job. IN general that is insane. IN this specific case it seems to have (at least we hope) worked out.

The majority of people agree with that last paragraph on some level.  The vast majority of us are sick of this topic.  If hayward and others would stop bringing it up this place would be better for it. 

[Pakuni]

And no, I was not taking a swipe at Buzz....what are you is grandmother?  Watching her cubs?  The kid grew up wanting to play for Wisconsin, Wisconsin didn't recruit him in a meaningful way....does that make it easier to get a recruit?  Any answer less than yes would be amazing.  Is that a shot at Buzz?  No.  It's reality.  When MU beats Wisconsin head to head for a recruit they both want, then that will be something.  This is a great get by Buzz, but one made a lot easier with Wisconsin not coming to the table.  How that is a shot at Buzz I don't know.


The email I got did say the kid wanted to play at Wisconsin and told his JMM coaches and classmates this.  I'd call that a statement...but since the no one was there with a microphone it didn't happen..right?  Sigh

Hee hee. Great line about the grandmother. Mind if I borrow that some time? Giving you full credit, of course.

Most NFL cornerbacks can't backpedal this fast.

You started this discussion by claiming that the reason Maymon verballed to MU is because UW didn't recruit him. You stated that Jeronne has "flat out" said that UW was his NUMBER ONE choice.

When you couldn't back up that story, you moved on to one about someone telling you that Jeronne grew up hoping to play for UW but apparently changed his mind because he didn't like their style of play. A complete contradiction of story #1.

Now when that gets questioned, it's on to story #3: it's just that UW's lack of interest made it "easier." And that someone anonymous privately e-mailed you a story that claims he heard a story about Jeronne telling someone else he wanted to play at UW. Hearsay times four, and a complete contradiction of stories #1 and #2.

And yes, you were taking a shot at Buzz, part of your ongoing effort to minimize everything positive (i.e. Erik Williams isn't really a Buzz recruit, Maymon only came to MU because UW didn't offer, we should ignore any good things said about Buzz by Gillispie, etc.) while exaggerating everything negative (he had - gasp! - a 13-17 season while trying to rebuild a hurricane-ravaged program, Mike DeCourcy said MU's administration panicked [ though he gave the decision a 'B'], incessantly lamenting the super important process, etc.).

[Pakuni]

The majority of people agree with that last paragraph on some level.  The vast majority of us are sick of this topic.  If hayward and others would stop bringing it up this place would be better for it. 

Upon that, we can agree. The horse is dead and has been for a while.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Nothing anyone can say or anything buzz can do will ever convince me that the best hiring process for ANY organization is to not interview qualified candidates and assume that they already know the best person for the job. IN general that is insane. IN this specific case it seems to have (at least we hope) worked out.

The majority of people agree with that last paragraph on some level.  The vast majority of us are sick of this topic.  If hayward and others would stop bringing it up this place would be better for it. 

I agree 100%.

I don't think the process sounds very good... but I'm not on the inside to know the specifics of it... so I can't judge.

Also, MU is in the results business... not the process business.

If Buzz is the real deal... then "F" the process. Hire him and let's get some results.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Hee hee. Great line about the grandmother. Mind if I borrow that some time? Giving you full credit, of course.

Most NFL cornerbacks can't backpedal this fast.

You started this discussion by claiming that the reason Maymon verballed to MU is because UW didn't recruit him. You stated that Jeronne has "flat out" said that UW was his NUMBER ONE choice.

When you couldn't back up that story, you moved on to one about someone telling you that Jeronne grew up hoping to play for UW but apparently changed his mind because he didn't like their style of play. A complete contradiction of story #1.

Now when that gets questioned, it's on to story #3: it's just that UW's lack of interest made it "easier." And that someone anonymous privately e-mailed you a story that claims he heard a story about Jeronne telling someone else he wanted to play at UW. Hearsay times four, and a complete contradiction of stories #1 and #2.

And yes, you were taking a shot at Buzz, part of your ongoing effort to minimize everything positive (i.e. Erik Williams isn't really a Buzz recruit, Maymon only came to MU because UW didn't offer, we should ignore any good things said about Buzz by Gillispie, etc.) while exaggerating everything negative (he had - gasp! - a 13-17 season while trying to rebuild a hurricane-ravaged program, Mike DeCourcy said MU's administration panicked [ though he gave the decision a 'B'], incessantly lamenting the super important process, etc.).

Pakuni, I did back up that story...sorry it didn't suit your needs, but I'm not going to reveal the poster's name unless he wants to. 

But there you go playing psychiatrist again...oh wait, I mean psychologist.  One requires a medical degree and you're just using yours as a hobby.  No shot at Buzz at all.

It's a simple question Pakuni, is it easier to get a kid from Wisconsin if Wisconsin doesn't offer.  Yes or No?  I await your answer.

Funny you bring up DeCourcy since your intreptation of his article then (when you were playing psychologist that day) was wrong too....just ask Mike directly.

But keep up with the psycho babble of interpreting what people's intentions are Pakuni.  A simple Yes or No on the question would be great...is it easier to get a kid when the best program in the state (currently...can't be debated) isn't offering?  I'd say Yes.  Most people would say Yes.  You interpret it as a shot at Buzz...wow.  I'd interpret it as a good opportunity that Buzz seized on and made the most of it (I suppose that's a shot at Buzz too).   

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos states....

Williams (Erik) then decided after Crean left he would only play at IU or MU...he decided to stay at MU and even mentioned the Jesuit connection

only from chicos...this is not only laughable it is an outright fabrication.    I am calling you out Chicos as an absolute fabricator.  Show me one article ..one single quote where eric Willimas ever said he was or would consider IU.  absolutely made up by you.  What he did say was Iu called him and he was not interested.  again i am calling you out and your constant twisting of the truth/lying to defend your diarrhea of the keyboard and pompous attitude. 
Pakuni is correct...
EW knew of Mu because of Buzz, considered Mu becuase of Buzz, verballed to Mu beacuse of BUzz, and never wavered on his Mu commitment because of Buzz despite what Chicos might fabricate.

Showed you two articles....several quotes...Indiana and MU were the only considerations...still waiting for you to be a man.  Apologies aren't hard...except from you.

[1990Warrior]

Chicos,
Regarding best program in the state, do you think they will beat us this year at home?  Despite the recent changes to our program, I just don't see it.

[MR.HAYWARD]

Why on earth would I apologize,  Williams and his coach made it abundantly clear he would only consider MU or whatever school Buzz went to if he did not get the MU.  you turn this into "he was a Crean guy and that is backed up by the fact that he considered IU"  Pure twist of words...no different than your post of  "another embarrasing headline" or whatever it was last week on the article about Buzz and then backpedalled all day about how you really did not say that.  It's Murf like the innuendos and the twisting, it is childish and it is pathetic.  rationalize away I at this point could care less your intent is not only blatant it has been repeated so much it is boring.  dont you have to serve coffe at some meeting with Peyton?  Buzz will know what backslappers not to trust.