MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: MR.HAYWARD on May 27, 2008, 09:23:02 AM
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Such a joke...no one questioned the 'process" when MU hired Deane. no one questioned the 'process" when Mu hired a Coach in Crean that had never coached a game, yet some of the know it alls question the "process" so they can have an " i told you so" if Buzz fails. Well any coach can fail, no matter how "good" the "process". ::)
At this point with Buzz being 2 for 2 with top 75 recruits in the upcoming class i would say it was a good "process"!!
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would wilson make that 3? The new bigger version of the 3 amigos.
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Looked like a joke from the outside, but it sounds like the guy has a magnetic personality. Companies do often times hire quickly when they feel like they've found the perfect candidate.
At this point, I don't see how you can say the hiring was poor. Really, its remarkable that a guy with no coaching experience can land a top 75 recruit in two months. With Williams he had a previous relationship, but it sounds like Maymon was a relatively new target for MU.
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Such a joke...no one questioned the 'process" when MU hired Deane. no one questioned the 'process" when Mu hired a Coach in Crean that had never coached a game, yet some of the know it alls question the "process" so they can have an " i told you so" if Buzz fails. Well any coach can fail, no matter how "good" the "process". ::)
At this point with Buzz being 2 for 2 with top 75 recruits in the upcoming class i would say it was a good "process"!!
The hiring process doesn't change a thing, it remains flawed....remains risky. That doesn't mean it can't work nor did anyone say that it couldn't.
Now, if you also go look at almost everyone's posts that felt it was flawed, we all said to a man that he could succeed, hoped he would succeed, thought he could succeed but didn't think the risk was necessary.
Even saying all that....we'll know if he succeeded years from now (hell, there are idiots on this board that said Crean wasn't successful after 9 years....does this mean if Buzz does anything short of Crean he isn't successful?), not a 6 weeks after being hired because he got a verbal from a kid who still has to qualify....right?
Great get by Buzz. Hope like hell the kid can get it together on the grade side because he sounds like a special talent on the court.
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blah, blah, blah, Chicos stick to your guns!! "it was the process, by golly, it was the process".
like other posters have said...you have no idea, absolutely no idea waht the process was so to say it was flawed is lunacy!!
as esoteric... siad...
Companies do often times hire quickly when they feel like they've found the perfect candidate.
even our former coach said he would very soon be a "high, high, major coach very soon".
based on the first 40+ days days ...i like flawed processes!!!
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The hiring process was a joke and remains a joke. Everyone's anger was not about Buzz. What was he supposed to do, turn down the job? I believe Buzz is fearless and has nothing to lose. It might work out well for him and MU, but does not take away the fact the hiring process was incomplete and unprofessional.
Everyone that says those against the hire wanted to see Buzz fail is flat out wrong. His early success in recruiting is a reflection on him and not the admin. I believe Buzz is in great situation. He really has no expectations because no one thought he was prepared for the job.
If Buzz is successful he gets ALL of the credit in my opinion.
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Hayward you are starting all the fights here. No matter what buzz does the process of not interviewing anyone for the ad job and then having the ad not interview anyone for the hc job is funky.
Go buzz, and thank god our inept process has been blessed by a higher power and seems to be working.
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Rawdog and Hayward---The process can be flawed and still work. A problem with a flawed process is it opensyou to up criticism. If MU came across more professional in the hiring of Buzz there would have been far less people complaining. It was not the hire but how the hire was conducted.
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still flawed.
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gym - yep, that's what i'm saying.
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Rawdog and Hayward---The process can be flawed and still work. A problem with a flawed process is it opensyou to up criticism. If MU came across more professional in the hiring of Buzz there would have been far less people complaining. It was not the hire but how the hire was conducted.
Really, then the reverse could be true as well. We could have went through this overdone process and hired some coach that did great at the University of Whoville and everyone would be happy. Then he fails miserably.
So basically quit whining about the "process", so far we should be lauding the hire.
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process flawed? This is a very impressive result. Do we care about form or substance?
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eso - right you are!
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Are you going to post this every time Buzz does something good?
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Are you going to post this every time Buzz does something good?
We'll probably see it as often as we saw remarks like "so much for consistency" when Christopherson transferred and Nick Williams and Tyshwan Taylor were released from their commitments.
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For those who felt Buzz should be given a chance before he, and by extension the process, is judged, it is gratifying to see this result.
There are many miles to go before final judgement is in, but this first step does seem promising. It should be a reminder that the Buzz and the methodology by which he was employed by MU should be judged on actual results, good or bad, and not on perception.
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For those who felt Buzz should be given a chance before he, and by extension the process, is judged, it is gratifying to see this result.
There are many miles to go before final judgement is in, but this first step does seem promising. It should be a reminder that the Buzz and the methodology by which he was employed by MU should be judged on actual results, good or bad, and not on perception.
Exactly....so we really can't just this one then until he signs, stays eligible and produces...right? ;)
Again, great get by Buzz. We'll ultimately know how good Buzz is in a few years....but it's clear Hayward has already made his decision. I'll wait to see a few years from now before getting there. I"m sure Hayward thought Crean sucked after signing Merritt, Diener, Wade, Novak in the first few years.... :o
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Rawdog and Hayward---The process can be flawed and still work. A problem with a flawed process is it opensyou to up criticism. If MU came across more professional in the hiring of Buzz there would have been far less people complaining. It was not the hire but how the hire was conducted.
Shhhh....you're not allowed to have that logical opinion don't you know. Oh, and anything you hear from BOT members or folks that work in athletics or the university...you can't believe them either because, you know, you weren't there. ::)
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Really, then the reverse could be true as well. We could have went through this overdone process and hired some coach that did great at the University of Whoville and everyone would be happy. Then he fails miserably.
So basically quit whining about the "process", so far we should be lauding the hire.
Uhm, of course....and everyone has said that from day 1. All hires are risky....it's the element of risk you want to take on, but none are a slam dunk.
In fact, some would argue this signing of this kid is risky...no guarantees he signs in November, no guarantees he is academically eligible....guaranteeing a starting job to a junior in high school is a risk...but this is a risk the staff felt necessary to take. There are risks with everything
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the gym bar.... you can in no way deem the process flawed when you have no idea what the process entailed.
additionally, the focus should entirely be on results..in as much as any process that ultimately has a bad result could be deemed bad and vice versa.
therefore to this point the process is not flawed but has been wonderful!!
In as much as Buzz has now gotten a commitment and a recommitment from the two highest rated forwards to Mu in the last 10 years!! how flawed is that!!! we could have had capobianco!!!
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Hayward--Your comments are so shallow and continually avoid the facts. You can state the process was professional because you wee part of the process? Honestly after reading your posts I believe you might be part of the process. You just do not get it.
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Buzz has now gotten a commitment and a recommitment from the two highest rated forwards to Mu in the last 10 years!!
TC couldn't get within earshot of kids like Maymon or Williams. nice work by Buzz
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Erik Williams is Tom Crean's recruit. You can't claim Buzz "got him" because EW decided to honor his legally binding Letter of Intent, instead of breaking his word.
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Erik Williams is Tom Crean's recruit. You can't claim Buzz "got him" because EW decided to honor his legally binding Letter of Intent, instead of breaking his word.
The LOI is the exact reason why people claim EW as a Buzz recruit. He hasn't signed anything yet kept his commitment. They feel that rightfully claims him to Buzz and not Crean.
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Erik Williams is Tom Crean's recruit. You can't claim Buzz "got him" because EW decided to honor his legally binding Letter of Intent, instead of breaking his word.
EW doesn't have a LOI yet. He's not even eligible to sign one for a few more months. There was nothing to honor but a verbal commit.
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Really, then the reverse could be true as well. We could have went through this overdone process and hired some coach that did great at the University of Whoville and everyone would be happy. Then he fails miserably.
So basically quit whining about the "process", so far we should be lauding the hire.
also what i was saying. EXCEPT that no one was whining about the hire, if you look at this post it was started by hayward who was a buzz lover before crean even left.
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the gym bar.... you can in no way deem the process flawed when you have no idea what the process entailed.
additionally, the focus should entirely be on results..in as much as any process that ultimately has a bad result could be deemed bad and vice versa.
therefore to this point the process is not flawed but has been wonderful!!
In as much as Buzz has now gotten a commitment and a recommitment from the two highest rated forwards to Mu in the last 10 years!! how flawed is that!!! we could have had capobianco!!!
So for those of us that have spoken to a BOT member or two or three and have had other conversations with university folks, we have no idea what the process entailed....interesting.
And no, those are not the two highest rated forwards for MU in the last 10 years....nevertheless, great gets. Now we need to land a solid guard that can actually get the ball to them.
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Chico,
I'm one of those who maintains TC underachieved for the opportunity that was given to him. Specifically his limitations were with regard to: 1) consistent and appropriate recruiting, 2) in-game coaching and 3) inter personal relationships. What did he do well, motivate players and hype himself. Numbers 1 and 2 played a large part in his leaving ie., he could not cut it in the BE. I am very glad he was smart enough to see his limitations and leave MU.
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also what i was saying. EXCEPT that no one was whining about the hire, if you look at this post it was started by hayward who was a buzz lover before crean even left.
I guess I was referring to the sentiment on this board with previous posts.
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The LOI is the exact reason why people claim EW as a Buzz recruit. He hasn't signed anything yet kept his commitment. They feel that rightfully claims him to Buzz and not Crean.
I stand corrected. EW is Crean's recruit because he called Tom Crean and spoke to him, committed to Marquette, and he has decided to honor his verbal commitment, absent a written LOI.
Sorry, but EW was in the boat when Tom Crean was captain of the ship. Buzz gets credit for keeping him in the well, but not for getting him into the ship.
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I guess I was referring to the sentiment on this board with previous posts.
understood, but they have stopped bringing it up. I think the only people who bring it up are the ones who think that they need to change peoples minds
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EW and maymom are in fact the 2 highest rated recruits for Mu in the last 10 years show me an Mu forward rated in the top 60 ....not merrit, not lazar and Not trevor sorry chicos they are in fact the two highest rated forwards signed to Mu in the last 10 years which encompasses creans 9 years and buzz's 40 days on the job!!
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The hiring process doesn't change a thing, it remains flawed....remains risky. That doesn't mean it can't work nor did anyone say that it couldn't.
Now, if you also go look at almost everyone's posts that felt it was flawed, we all said to a man that he could succeed, hoped he would succeed, thought he could succeed but didn't think the risk was necessary.
Even saying all that....we'll know if he succeeded years from now (hell, there are idiots on this board that said Crean wasn't successful after 9 years....does this mean if Buzz does anything short of Crean he isn't successful?), not a 6 weeks after being hired because he got a verbal from a kid who still has to qualify....right?
Great get by Buzz. Hope like hell the kid can get it together on the grade side because he sounds like a special talent on the court.
This is an interesting debate.
Chicos, I agree with you on one-hand because from what I have read and gathered... MU didn't do a lot of interviewing before making the hire. That makes me nervous. There is a reason for process and procedure, it usually limits mistakes.
However, on the other hand, I am willing to admit that Steve Cottingham probably knows 1000 times more about hiring a coach than I do. I can admit that I love college hoops, but hiring coaches is outside of my area of expertise.
I'm a results driven guy, and so if Buzz gets results... then I will say the process was a success because it yielded a favorable result. It was a risky choice by MU, but could pay off HUGE.
Let's look at another scenario:
- Cottingham loves Buzz, but still feels the pressure to bring in a coach with more experience. MU hires Keno Davis after a thorough search (which everybody applauds)
- Keno Davis has a average 5 year run similar to Deane's (early success, but program going downhill each year)
- Buzz moves onto another school... and eventually moves up to head coach somewhere and becomes a huge success.
Now, I realize this is all conjecture, and hindsight is always 20/20... but if this happened, I would consider the process a failure.
MU had Buzz in house, didn't recognize his talents, and let him get away. Davis was experienced, and appeared like a good hire, but didn't live up to expectations. In this case, the process led MU down the wrong path. Therefore, it's a failure.
I guess what I'm trying to say is: The process argument is interesting, but let's all just admit that the goal of the process is to yield results. I'm all for structure and thoroughness, but I also recognize that sometimes the "right" decision won't be popular for a number of years (see Mike McCarthy), and sometimes the right decision needs to be made without 1000 people's input.
If Cottingham and his inner circle think Buzz is the guy... then more power to them. If Buzz fails miserably, I'll be the first to say it was a bad hire. If he succeeds... then Cottingham will look like a genius.
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2002mualum---Buzz can win six coach of the year awards and nine national championships and it still will not be because of Cottingham. The hire was risky and hopefully Buzz wins nine trophies for us. Buzz controls his destiny and that is great. Cottingham should stick with the girls programs.
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Sorry, but EW was in the boat when Tom Crean was captain of the ship. Buzz gets credit for keeping him in the well, but not for getting him into the ship.
If not for Buzz, EW not only wouldn't have got into the ship, he would not have heard from the ship or even considered the ship. He would have boarded another ship without giving the Marquette ship a passing glance.
Williams will be at MU because of Buzz Williams. It's really not even debatable.
Your Crean argument might hold a drop of water if TC were still coach here. But when Crean left, EW could have re-opened his recruitment and gone anywhere he wanted without any LOI issues, etc. He chose to stay at MU for the same reason he picked MU in the first place: Buzz Williams.
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If not for Buzz, EW not only wouldn't have got into the ship, he would not have heard from the ship or even considered the ship. He would have boarded another ship without giving the Marquette ship a passing glance.
Williams will be at MU because of Buzz Williams. It's really not even debatable.
Your Crean argument might hold a drop of water if TC were still coach here. But when Crean left, EW could have re-opened his recruitment and gone anywhere he wanted without any LOI issues, etc. He chose to stay at MU for the same reason he picked MU in the first place: Buzz Williams.
Yup, he probably wouldn't be at MU if not for Buzz. You can say that about 100's of kids each year as usually it's the relationship with the assistant coach that gets the kid their to begin with. But they play for the head coach, to deny that or sluff it off is not accurate.
I forgot, who hired Buzz at MU? Who pushed the BOT and the university to hire Buzz as head coach. I'll hang up and listen
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EW and maymom are in fact the 2 highest rated recruits for Mu in the last 10 years show me an Mu forward rated in the top 60 ....not merrit, not lazar and Not trevor sorry chicos they are in fact the two highest rated forwards signed to Mu in the last 10 years which encompasses creans 9 years and buzz's 40 days on the job!!
Sigh....well here are the facts....I'll sit back and listen to you spin. Note, I think these two gets are TERRIFIC, but in fact they are not the 2 highest rated recruits for MU in the last ten years.
Steve Novak...a FORWARD...was ranked 30th by Prep Stars...link below
http://home.nc.rr.com/rsci/RSCI_100_Fall_2002.htm
I stopped looking after Novak (the first player I looked up)...I'm sure there are others but since the point has already been made, why bother.
The rankings change, the final rankings on these kids isn't even done yet....just as Novak dropped for the final rating by Prep Stars later that year (from 30 to 45...mostly because he signed with Marquette and that makes players drop in the ratings...very few move up after signing with MU. Many of these "experts" like to wait and see who signs with UNC, UCLA, Duke, etc and suddenly their ratings for those players improve while players they had very strong seem to drop slightly when they sign with a Gonzaga, Marquette, etc....it's all BS, but it happens. It's about the hype.).
Compare APPLES TO APPLES. Wait until the final rankings are done....until then, you remain factually WRONG! There are many recruiting services out there and you're always going to find large spreads. Hell, Nick Williams was as high as 35 and as low as 165.
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Chico,
I'm one of those who maintains TC underachieved for the opportunity that was given to him. Specifically his limitations were with regard to: 1) consistent and appropriate recruiting, 2) in-game coaching and 3) inter personal relationships. What did he do well, motivate players and hype himself. Numbers 1 and 2 played a large part in his leaving ie., he could not cut it in the BE. I am very glad he was smart enough to see his limitations and leave MU.
He was a horse's ass, but he took a program on a losing trajectory, crappy attendance, etc and put them in the top 15 in attendance, top 25 the last three years on the court, etc, etc.
He remains a horse's ass, but he did a lot of good things for Marquette. I'll ask again, if Crean wasn't a success then why is he at Indiana? Secondly, if he wasn't a success does this mean anything short of 5 NCAA appearances in the next 7 years and a Final Four appearance would be what then....considering Crean didn't do anything? I'm just asking
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pakuni is dead on correct. When crean left it gave Williams an opportunity to leave, in fact eric Williams coach evn stated Crean called him to recruit him to Indiana, there is some speculation as to whether he let EW or his current players know he was moving on first.
regardless, as only a verbal he could have reopend his recruitment seeing as how "he verballed to Crean" but for some reason he made glowing comments about buzz and that he wanted to stay at Mu for those reasons. Yet for some reason certain people want to still lable the EW verbal as "all Crean", funny that it is the same people that continue to state it "was a flawed process"
I love flawed processes!!
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looks like our flawed process just might land us the best Mu recruitng class in yraers
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It will be all Buzz when he gets the kid. Right now the kid can change his mind and that could happen. His stock will rise quickly and others will jump in and try and get him. He close to Buzz's but not there yet.
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2002mualum---Buzz can win six coach of the year awards and nine national championships and it still will not be because of Cottingham. The hire was risky and hopefully Buzz wins nine trophies for us. Buzz controls his destiny and that is great. Cottingham should stick with the girls programs.
COMPLETELY DISAGREE!
If Buzz is a huge success... then give Cottingham credit for making a tough/unpopular decision, but hiring the great candidate.
You may not be "in love" with the process... but give credit where credit is due.
Again, sometimes we need to admit that somebody (Cottingham) may know more about hiring a coach than we do.
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I forgot, who hired Buzz at MU? Who pushed the BOT and the university to hire Buzz as head coach. I'll hang up and listen
Now you're getting silly.
Lessee ... Dwyane Wade came to Marquette to play for Tom Crean.
But wait, Bill Cords hired Tom Crean, so maybe Bill Cords should get the credit for Dwyane Wade.
But wait, the Rev. John Raynor hired Bill Cords.
So there you have it. John Raynor, who died in 1997, brought Dwyane Wade to Marquette three years after his passing. ;)
Let's keep this simple.
Erik Williams is coming to Marquette because of Buzz Williams.
If he wanted to play for Tom Crean, I'm pretty sure there would be a scholarship waiting for him in Bloomington. He chose instead to play at Marquette for Buzz Williams. Not because he had a commitment. Not because he was legally bound to it. Not because it would have been a hassle to go elsewhere.
He wants to play for Buzz Williams.
Why are you trying so hard to minimize that fact? Are you that eager to be right about the all-important process that you'll give Buzz credit only begrudgingly?
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2002mualum---If it was a tough/potentially unpopular hire that was conducted like a top 20 program I would agree with you. This hire and the process was an inexperienced dimwit that knows nothing about running a top program.
He would have hired Buzz on the Saturday of FF but was talked out of making that decision. Would he had been smarter if he hired Buzz on Saturday vs. Tuesday. He is an AD in over his head and made a knee jerk hire. No credit for any success.
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2002mualum---If it was a tough/potentially unpopular hire that was conducted like a top 20 program I would agree with you. This hire and the process was an inexperienced dimwit that knows nothing about running a top program.
He would have hired Buzz on the Saturday of FF but was talked out of making that decision. Would he had been smarter if he hired Buzz on Saturday vs. Tuesday. He is an AD in over his head and made a knee jerk hire. No credit for any success.
What makes you qualified?
It's easy to post criticism on the internet... it's much harder to be an AD.
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2002mualum----I'm not qualified and did not apply for the job. Cottingham is not qualified and did not apply for the job either. To defend Cottingham or the hire you either have to be Cottingham, a family member or someone involved in hiring the dimwit.
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looks like our flawed process just might land us the best Mu recruitng class in yraers
Could be...good thing the previous coaching administration got MU to where it was to help in that process. We are in the best shape we've been in probably in 25 years....Buzz needs to take advantage of that. So far he has. Keep it going.
EDIT: For Tony Reeder...the term "we" means Marquette University and the Athletic Department. As an alumnus I felt compelled to use the term "we".
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Now you're getting silly.
Lessee ... Dwyane Wade came to Marquette to play for Tom Crean.
But wait, Bill Cords hired Tom Crean, so maybe Bill Cords should get the credit for Dwyane Wade.
But wait, the Rev. John Raynor hired Bill Cords.
So there you have it. John Raynor, who died in 1997, brought Dwyane Wade to Marquette three years after his passing. ;)
Let's keep this simple.
Erik Williams is coming to Marquette because of Buzz Williams.
If he wanted to play for Tom Crean, I'm pretty sure there would be a scholarship waiting for him in Bloomington. He chose instead to play at Marquette for Buzz Williams. Not because he had a commitment. Not because he was legally bound to it. Not because it would have been a hassle to go elsewhere.
He wants to play for Buzz Williams.
Why are you trying so hard to minimize that fact? Are you that eager to be right about the all-important process that you'll give Buzz credit only begrudgingly?
So just for clarity, if Crean was still here and Buzz say got the head coaching job at Tulsa next year....by your logic Erik would transfer to Tulsa since he came here only for Buzz...is that correct?
You're the one being silly....of course he wants to play for Marquette under Buzz....but he also signed on to play for Marquetet when Crean when he was here. He decided to stay.
At the end of the day, to suggest this kid wasn't committed to MU by Crean while head coach is one of the silliest things I've read on this board. He verballed to MU while Crean was head coach. Crean hired Buzz to get recruits...Buzz got them. That's what Buzz was paid to do...he did it well. Williams (Erik) then decided after Crean left he would only play at IU or MU...he decided to stay at MU and even mentioned the Jesuit connection (perhaps we should credit Ignatius Loyola as well?). It's terrific that Williams is still here and recommitted to MU....the key component..."re-committed".....he had ALREADY committed to MU and the previous head coach. It seems some (not you Pakuni) believe that we ignore some of these signings which is utterly ridiculous.
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2002mualum----I'm not qualified and did not apply for the job. Cottingham is not qualified and did not apply for the job either. To defend Cottingham or the hire you either have to be Cottingham, a family member or someone involved in hiring the dimwit.
Nope.
I'm none of those things.
I am however a person that can admit that there are people out there who are smarter than I am.
I'm not involved in MU athletics (other than being a fan). There are a lot of things that go on in that department that I don't know about.
Forgive me for having some faith that some smart(er) people are making some decisions.
Also, calling Cottingham a dimwit, even if MU is successful is silly. If MU is successful, Cottingham should get some credit. I don't know why that is so hard to admit for you.
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Calling Cottingham a dimwit is an understatement. He was not qualified nor prepared to conduct the search. Buzz being successful will all be Buzz's doing. Give credit where credit is due.
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At the end of the day, to suggest this kid wasn't committed to MU by Crean while head coach is one of the silliest things I've read on this board. He verballed to MU while Crean was head coach. Crean hired Buzz to get recruits...Buzz got them. That's what Buzz was paid to do...he did it well.
Nobody .. and definitely not I ... is making that suggestion.
What we're pointing out though is that it is accurate and fair to call Erik Williams a Buzz Williams recruit.
He was contacted and recruited by Marquette because of Buzz Williams.
He verbally committed to Marquette because of Buzz Williams.
He re-affirmed that commitment to Marquette because of Buzz Williams.
This wasn't a simple case of an assistant doing to leg work and the head coach closing the deal. Nor is it a case of a new coach taking over and inheriting the former coach's recruits (a la Crean and Krunti Hester).
BW did the work on EW. Tom Crean just happened to he the head coach when EW gave his verbal.
As I've pointed out, if EW felt his commitment was to Tom Crean, or was coming to Marquette to play for Tom Crean, he had every opportunity to bail on his verbal and go to Indiana or anywhere else.
He didn't. He's sticking with Marquette.
And we know why.
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Calling Cottingham a dimwit is an understatement. He was not qualified nor prepared to conduct the search. Buzz being successful will all be Buzz's doing. Give credit where credit is due.
Are you saying that if Buzz is successful that Cottingham just got lucky?
Why doesn't he deserve credit for hiring Buzz?
In the business world, the smartest people are the ones who can identify talent and utilize those people.
Doesn't that apply to Cottingham?
If he's going to get the blame if MU athletics tanks... he should at least get SOME credit if they do well.
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Could be...good thing the previous coaching administration got MU to where it was to help in that process. We are in the best shape we've been in probably in 25 years....Buzz needs to take advantage of that. So far he has. Keep it going.
EDIT: For Tony Reeder...the term "we" means Marquette University and the Athletic Department. As an alumnus I felt compelled to use the term "we".
I'm afraid to answer because you might have a moderator send me an e-mail at work again. You continue to refer to the Marquette basketball team and coaches as "we" as much as you want, continue to respond to your own posts, refer to the women at work as "gals", and post 3000 times on message board. I'll leave you alone. I come here occasionally to get news on the basketball program-that's all I need.
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Are you saying that if Buzz is successful that Cottingham just got lucky?
Why doesn't he deserve credit for hiring Buzz?
In the business world, the smartest people are the ones who can identify talent and utilize those people.
Doesn't that apply to Cottingham?
If he's going to get the blame if MU athletics tanks... he should at least get SOME credit if they do well.
I'm with 2002mualum on this one. Just like Mike McCarthy's success is making Ted Thompson look really smart, Buzz's success should reflect positively on Cottingham, process be damned.
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Pakuni...I said you weren't one of them....but "nobody"...hardly. Read again some of the other messages here. A few people are suggesting as if this kid never even verballed to us when Crean was the head coach...of course he did. Why they are, I have no idea other then the correlation of hating Crean is a perfect 1:1 ratio so that's the only thing I can think of.
I see Reeder has responded but since I have Ignore User on, I can read it. What a fabulous feature of this site. Thank you Scoop.
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I'm with 2002mualum on this one. Just like Mike McCarthy's success is making Ted Thompson look really smart, Buzz's success should reflect positively on Cottingham, process be damned.
Could we maybe wait until a few years from now to deem anyone a success on this front? We got a verbal from a great player today...that's terrific. Let's hope he's eligible, let's hope he's that good, let's hope we can get a guard that can get the ball to him and that our coach is ready to go in the coaching rigors of the Big East as well. Until then, grade incomplete for the next couple of years. So far, so good but a long way to go. And again, I'd remind how many of those here thought the last guy wasn't a success...if that's the barometer, then Buzz has a lot to achieve before he can be considered a success.
The McCarthy comparison is an interesting one, especially since I read elsewhere how poor of a hire he was in year one, how great he was in year two, and maybe year three he goes back to not being a great hire...who knows. I suppose it depends on how the team does. ;)
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IF EW indeed comes then Buzz deserves credit for getting him here. Until that point EW is TC's recruit.
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Pakuni...I said you weren't one of them....but "nobody"...hardly. Read again some of the other messages here. A few people are suggesting as if this kid never even verballed to us when Crean was the head coach...of course he did. Why they are, I have no idea other then the correlation of hating Crean is a perfect 1:1 ratio so that's the only thing I can think of.
I see Reeder has responded but since I have Ignore User on, I can read it. What a fabulous feature of this site. Thank you Scoop.
I think you meant to say, "I can't read it." I'm sure that was just a slip though.
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Could we maybe wait until a few years from now to deem anyone a success on this front?
I agree with this 100%... and if you follow my logic through all of my posts.. .that is my point.
"the process" is certainly an interesting topic to discuss... but let's just be honest and say that the ends justify the means.
If Buzz is great, well, then I will say the "process" was successful. Again, I realize hindsight is always 20/20, but really I can't judge anything about the hiring until I see more.
You can have any process or business practices you want, but if the results aren't good... then the process won't matter too much.
MU hoops is in the results business... not the process business... and ultimately that is how the coach and AD will be judged.
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Chicos states....
Williams (Erik) then decided after Crean left he would only play at IU or MU...he decided to stay at MU and even mentioned the Jesuit connection
only from chicos...this is not only laughable it is an outright fabrication. I am calling you out Chicos as an absolute fabricator. Show me one article ..one single quote where eric Willimas ever said he was or would consider IU. absolutely made up by you. What he did say was Iu called him and he was not interested. again i am calling you out and your constant twisting of the truth/lying to defend your diarrhea of the keyboard and pompous attitude.
Pakuni is correct...
EW knew of Mu because of Buzz, considered Mu becuase of Buzz, verballed to Mu beacuse of BUzz, and never wavered on his Mu commitment because of Buzz despite what Chicos might fabricate.
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EW's coach said that he and Erik discussed it, and it was either Indiana or MU. In an article that Rosiak did right after he reaffirmed his commitment.
"Interestingly, had MU not hired Williams to replace Crean, Williams might very well have wound up at Indiana with Crean. He and his coach at Cypress Springs, John Harmatuk, decided to wait MU's hiring process out before ultimately making a decision.
"The reason we weren't in a hurry is because it was going to be Indiana or Marquette".
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EW's coach said that he and Erik discussed it, and it was either Indiana or MU. In an article that Rosiak did right after he reaffirmed his commitment.
"Interestingly, had MU not hired Williams to replace Crean, Williams might very well have wound up at Indiana with Crean. He and his coach at Cypress Springs, John Harmatuk, decided to wait MU's hiring process out before ultimately making a decision.
"The reason we weren't in a hurry is because it was going to be Indiana or Marquette".
Correct. And therein lies the rub.
Williams could have gone to Indiana and played for Tom Crean. Instead, he re-affirmed his verbal to Marquette in order to play for Buzz Williams.
Given those known facts, I don't see how anyone could argue that he's not a Buzz Williams recruit, but rather a Tom Crean recruit. For Pete's sake, when given the option, he chose Buzz.
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Correct. And therein lies the rub.
Williams could have gone to Indiana and played for Tom Crean. Instead, he re-affirmed his verbal to Marquette in order to play for Buzz Williams.
Given those known facts, I don't see how anyone could argue that he's not a Buzz Williams recruit, but rather a Tom Crean recruit. For Pete's sake, when given the option, he chose Buzz.
The Erik Williams argument is a stupid one.
He is a Buzz recruit. Period.
Trying to argue otherwise is playing with semantics. Let's give Buzz credit where it's due.
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I think the unspoken reason some are reluctant to credit Buzz with Erik Williams' recruitment is that it undermines the whole "process was flawed" line of thought.
Buzz was hired largely because of his recruiting ability. He's completely living up to that reputation.
He won the commitment of Erik Williams over a reported offer from Indiana.
He landed Jimmy Butler, shoring up a hole created with the absence of Nick Williams.
He landed one of the top players in Wisconsin--the type that has eluded MU for much of the past five years.
Seems to me that Buzz is doing exactly what is expected of him. He wasn't hired because his years of experience coaching a mid-major. He was hired to land the type of players we need to win in the Big East.
Now that he's accomplishing that, somehow the process was still "flawed."
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exactly, maybe he considered Indiana for a few days but only insomuch as Buzz might go there, for chico's to attempt to twist that to mean he was considering following Crean only there is a pure fabrication. note the eery silence from the never silent one. As was posted before the only ones saying EW is not a 100% total Buzz recruit and recommit are those still hanging on the "process" lunacy!! if the EW recommitment, stealing jimmy Butler from miss. State and Kentucky to Mu, campus unseen, and now the JM verbal are not proof positive that Mu maybe made a good hire than they cannot possibly even be fans. Reminds me of Chicos defending Deane for about two years and blathering on about how it would reflect bad on MU!! that was a laffer too, then he jumps on the bandwagon...big back slapper. i will be sure to let Buzz know jaime has been a huge detractor to the point of ad nauseum.
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Chicos states....
Williams (Erik) then decided after Crean left he would only play at IU or MU...he decided to stay at MU and even mentioned the Jesuit connection
only from chicos...this is not only laughable it is an outright fabrication. I am calling you out Chicos as an absolute fabricator. Show me one article ..one single quote where eric Willimas ever said he was or would consider IU. absolutely made up by you. What he did say was Iu called him and he was not interested. again i am calling you out and your constant twisting of the truth/lying to defend your diarrhea of the keyboard and pompous attitude.
Pakuni is correct...
EW knew of Mu because of Buzz, considered Mu becuase of Buzz, verballed to Mu beacuse of BUzz, and never wavered on his Mu commitment because of Buzz despite what Chicos might fabricate.
Wow...it's like stealing candy from a baby.
A fabricator you say...well, please call his High School basketball coach a fabricator too then. Good grief you're a piece of work. You continue to post things that are untrue, I correct you and then you move on to another. Any other recruiting ratings you want to throw out there that are in absolute error as you have been 100% of the time the last month plus? Please...it's been entertaining.
And I also said that of course Buzz got Williams to MU...but you make it sound like he didn't sign to play for Crean and Marquette. That is a joke on every level possible.
So, back to your request. Here is what John Harmatuk, head coach at Cypress Springs said.
"The reason we weren't in a hurry is because it was going to be Indiana or Marquette," said Harmatuk. "He was never going to open it up to anybody else."
Pretty simple. He signed with Marquette and to play for Crean. Crean left. He then considered IU or MU, those were the only two he would consider and he decided to stay with MU once Buzz got the job. If Buzz didn't get the job, he might very well have gone to IU. As his coach and Williams said, they trusted two people..CREAN and BUZZ. That's it.
"If you're going to do recruiting right, you're going to do it on relationships because you're going to spend 24 hours a day, seven days a week with these guys for four years, and that's what it was all about. Erik had a good relationship with two people -- Coach Buzz and Coach Crean."
"There was that four- or five-day period when no head coach was named. As soon as Coach Buzz was named...it was easy."
“Despite everything that has gone on, I remain strongly committed to Marquette University,” Erik Williams said. “Coach Crean is a great person and coach, but the more I thought about it, I committed to Marquette because of everything that it stands for and has to offer. In the south, everything is football. At Marquette, basketball is the main focus.”
So you can say I'm a fabricator all you want or you can continue to post ratings on players and say untruthful things about them, that's fine. It seems pretty clear by Erik's head high school coach that there were only two schools he would consider...INDIANA and MARQUETTE. Once Buzz got the MU job, he stayed with MU. I'd love to know what I fabricated.
I'll wait for your apology ::)
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EW's coach said that he and Erik discussed it, and it was either Indiana or MU. In an article that Rosiak did right after he reaffirmed his commitment.
"Interestingly, had MU not hired Williams to replace Crean, Williams might very well have wound up at Indiana with Crean. He and his coach at Cypress Springs, John Harmatuk, decided to wait MU's hiring process out before ultimately making a decision.
"The reason we weren't in a hurry is because it was going to be Indiana or Marquette".
Thanks BMA....but I'm just a fabricator you know. I appreciate the assist, I'm sure Hayward will admit he's wrong again like he has so much of late.
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exactly, maybe he considered Indiana for a few days but only insomuch as Buzz might go there, for chico's to attempt to twist that to mean he was considering following Crean only there is a pure fabrication. note the eery silence from the never silent one. As was posted before the only ones saying EW is not a 100% total Buzz recruit and recommit are those still hanging on the "process" lunacy!! if the EW recommitment, stealing jimmy Butler from miss. State and Kentucky to Mu, campus unseen, and now the JM verbal are not proof positive that Mu maybe made a good hire than they cannot possibly even be fans. Reminds me of Chicos defending Deane for about two years and blathering on about how it would reflect bad on MU!! that was a laffer too, then he jumps on the bandwagon...big back slapper. i will be sure to let Buzz know jaime has been a huge detractor to the point of ad nauseum.
I didn't fabricate a damn thing...gave you direct quotes...you were just flat f'ing wrong again...maybe someday you'll have the stones to admit it. Unlikely.
PS I miss your other usernames...you should bring them back from year's gone past. LOL
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I think the unspoken reason some are reluctant to credit Buzz with Erik Williams' recruitment is that it undermines the whole "process was flawed" line of thought.
Buzz was hired largely because of his recruiting ability. He's completely living up to that reputation.
He won the commitment of Erik Williams over a reported offer from Indiana.
He landed Jimmy Butler, shoring up a hole created with the absence of Nick Williams.
He landed one of the top players in Wisconsin--the type that has eluded MU for much of the past five years.
Seems to me that Buzz is doing exactly what is expected of him. He wasn't hired because his years of experience coaching a mid-major. He was hired to land the type of players we need to win in the Big East.
Now that he's accomplishing that, somehow the process was still "flawed."
So far, so good but let's put it into context.
MU won Maymon because Wisconsin didn't go after him. The kid flat out stated UW-madison was his NUMBER ONE choice. UW-Madison didn't recruit the kid because of grades and a few other reasons....so I'm not sure that one counts.
Second, is Jimmy Butler a better player then Nick Williams? I don't think anyone can say that yet.
The process remains and always will be flawed. It was a risky hire...let's hope it works out...so far...so good...especially if our stud recruit today is academically eligible.
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MU won Maymon because Wisconsin didn't go after him. The kid flat out stated UW-madison was his NUMBER ONE choice.
Really?
When did Jeronne flat-out state that (or shout it)?
I mean, I don't want to call you a fabricator or anything, but this is news to me.
Source? Link? Anything?
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Buzz is the one that initially recruited Erik Williams out of Texas. Definitely deserves most, if not all of the credit for bringing Williams to Marquette. The posters that are worrying about the process in which we hired Coach Williams by saying it was risky........no kidding. The simple fact is whenever you hire any coach, even a seasoned veteran brings about a great deal of risk. There is no perfect way of doing things. Give it a break!
I'm pleased with with Buzz, and I'm looking forward to the future with him as our coach.
Maymon said UW didn't recruit him, but he also said he didn't like their style of play because it didn't match his strengths.
Lastly, add a good point guard and Wilson and we will be set for many years to come. (Wishful thinking at this point)
GO MU!
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Really?
When did Jeronne flat-out state that (or shout it)?
I mean, I don't want to call you a fabricator or anything, but this is news to me.
Source? Link? Anything?
I believe I read it on WisSports. Can't find the link...perhaps Mark Miller can assist if Maymon's top desire was Madison but since they didn't show the love it wasn't going to happen for him.
Best I can do is give you his father's quote from Friday's paper.
"He has been very interested in UW, but UW is not interested in him,'' Tim Maymon said. ``If they ever have to face him, they'll see why the should have got him.
I'll continue to look for you Pakuni and will provide it when I find it. Essentially it was to the effect that he always wanted to play in his hometown for Wisconsin but they weren't recruiting him. Hopefully I can find it soon, I'd hate to be called a fabricator. :D Or worse, I'd hate for you to be considered in the same breath as Mr. Hayward...you're better than that.
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I believe I read it on WisSports. Can't find the link...perhaps Mark Miller can assist if Maymon's top desire was Madison but since they didn't show the love it wasn't going to happen for him.
Best I can do is give you his father's quote from Friday's paper.
"He has been very interested in UW, but UW is not interested in him,'' Tim Maymon said. ``If they ever have to face him, they'll see why the should have got him.
I'll continue to look for you Pakuni and will provide it when I find it. Essentially it was to the effect that he always wanted to play in his hometown for Wisconsin but they weren't recruiting him. Hopefully I can find it soon, I'd hate to be called a fabricator. :D
So we've gone from Jeronne saying "flat-out" UW was his NUMBER ONE choice to his dad saying he was interested?
Suffice to say, there's a pretty big difference there both in the source and the content. Happy searching.
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So we've gone from Jeronne saying "flat-out" UW was his NUMBER ONE choice to his dad saying he was interested?
Suffice to say, there's a pretty big difference there both in the source and the content. Happy searching.
Nope, I've not changed what I said at all...I said this is what I found thus far. I can't remember where I read it but when I find it I'll post it. Fair enough? And perhaps Mark or some others that talk to these kids all the time can verify what I read.
Have a nice evening.
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Chicos - call off the search engines and just be happy Marquette hired Buzz and that he signed a great recruit today.
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Chicos - call off the search engines and just be happy Marquette hired Buzz and that he signed a great recruit today.
I'm thrilled Buzz did. This kid is a stud player, there is no doubt about that. Let's hope he can get the grades up and some of the off court issues (rumors of a suspension in high school for 'running with the wrong crowd') are a thing of the past.
I actually found it, too, (the reference of Maymon wanting to be a Badger early on). It was an email not on a site. I knew I had read it somewhere. I'll not reveal who sent it unless that person wishes to do so, he can here (he is a frequent poster). Essentially says he grew up wanting to play at Wisconsin and a few other places (typical locations kids grow up wanting to play...the national favorites). However, does not like Bo's style (there's hope for this kid ;) ) and in addition to that, originally the father said a two for one with the other son to Bo. Of course Bo said no thanks, as he should have.
Went on to say he would never ever play for Wisconsin as long as Ryan's system was in place. They were keeping an eye on him on the recruiting front but no offers nor did they (Maymons) expect any.
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So far, so good but let's put it into context.
MU won Maymon because Wisconsin didn't go after him. The kid flat out stated UW-madison was his NUMBER ONE choice. UW-Madison didn't recruit the kid because of grades and a few other reasons....so I'm not sure that one counts.
What about Baylor, Iowa State, Kentucky, Minnesota, USC, Indiana, Providence, Washington State & UWGB? Did the kid flat out state that MU was #2 all along, and he was holding everyone off just waiting for MU to come calling?
Interesting that the National Coach of the Year couldn't get Maymon to hold off on making a commitment to MU today, despite PC's obvious interest and need.
Come on--everyone knows that Wisconsin wasn't the competition here. That doesn't mean its a cakewalk for MU.
Second, is Jimmy Butler a better player then Nick Williams? I don't think anyone can say that yet.
Certainly not me. Your response, however, is written in a way that suggests that I did say that. Sorry, but this is a fabrication. I never said that Butler was better than Nick Williams. What I *DID* say was that Butler plugged an immediate hole in the roster that was created when Williams left.
Now, to quote someone from this board:
I'll wait for your apology
The process remains and always will be flawed. It was a risky hire...let's hope it works out...so far...so good...especially if our stud recruit today is academically eligible.
What flaws? Because we didn't prioritize a known bench coach rather than a know recruiter?
BTW, your stock answer of "Buzz would have been there a week later" is not necessarily true.
Here's one very conceivable scenario: You interview Brownell, and for whatever reason, you ignore concerns over fit with the current administration, continuity with current team, and proven recruiting ability because you believe the Colonial Conference coach of the year is the man to take Marquette to the next level.
If you hire Brownell, then Buzz isn't around a week later.
Neither is Fulce. Neither is Otule. Neither is Jimmy Butler. Neither is Erik Williams. Neither is Jeronne Maymon. I don't know if both James and McNeal would leave--but I'd put the odds at 50/50 each, so let's say we only lose one of them.
Now, I don't know about you, but I would call the process that would cause the likely roster loss of Fulce, Otule, Butler, Williams Maymon and either James or McNeall as "flawed"--perhaps even more flawed than promoting an assistant with proven recruiting chops.
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Guys - Its Marquette.
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84...Well then, anyone we would have recruited would have filled the hole that Nick Williams left...Mother Teresa would have filled the hole if you're going down that path. Yes, a body does fill that hole.
I interpreted your comments as Nick Williams was gone but Jimmy Butler is here to fill the hole he left. I'll man up, something Hayward can't do....I apologize if that wasn't your intention.
On the Wisconsin thing....again, if I'm misinterpreting, then by all means I apologize. I took your comments to mean we got "big" from the state of Wisconsin, something we haven't been able to do in a long time in winning over a recruit from the Badger state. Only problem with that is the last 4 recruits we've lost have all been to the Wisconsin Badgers. The Badgers were not giving an offer to Maymon so the shine of winning this big seems a bit different then the others we have lost to UW-Madison in the past....simply because UW-Madison wasn't a player involved in the recruitment.
On your last point...I'd be curious exactly where Buzz was going to be other then at Marquette or Indiana (as an assistant...which wasn't going to happen because Crean was pushing for Buzz to take the MU job which is why he didn't take him to begin with)....or more importantly, what head coaching job was he going to be at other then Marquette?
You do realize that Crean wanted Buzz to get this gig...right? MU went after Miller and Bennett and in the background was Buzz as the next option with Crean pushing hard. Buzz wasn't going anywhere...absolutely not going anywhere if MU wanted to wait another week. NOWHERE!
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MU 84 - +1
Chico's- I understand the concerns that you and others have about the process. But, even though it is early, ya' gotta' be impressed with the initial results. The best is yet to come. Plenty of time to criticize if things don't work out in the future. For now, I am going to enjoy the commitment from Maymon and be excited about our future!
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I'm thrilled Buzz did. This kid is a stud player, there is no doubt about that. Let's hope he can get the grades up and some of the off court issues (rumors of a suspension in high school for 'running with the wrong crowd') are a thing of the past.
I actually found it, too, (the reference of Maymon wanting to be a Badger early on). It was an email not on a site. I knew I had read it somewhere. I'll not reveal who sent it unless that person wishes to do so, he can here (he is a frequent poster). Essentially says he grew up wanting to play at Wisconsin and a few other places (typical locations kids grow up wanting to play...the national favorites). However, does not like Bo's style (there's hope for this kid ;) ) and in addition to that, originally the father said a two for one with the other son to Bo. Of course Bo said no thanks, as he should have.
So, your story has gone from "the kid flat out stated UW-madison was his NUMBER ONE choice" to an anoymous guy on a message board sending you an e-mail claiming a kid from Madison grew up wanting to play for the hometown team and a few other places but later concluded that he didn't want to play at UW.
Hmmm. That's a bit different from what you first said, which obviously was a not-so-subtle dig at Buzz, claiming he was feeding off of Bo Ryan's table scraps.
I don't doubt that the kid was interested in UW. I'd say that places him with about 99 percent of the rest of the kids growing up playing basketball in the state, especially if they live north of Milwaukee and west of Waukesha. But that and what you said are not the same thing.
FWIW, I also have received e-mails/PMs from people on this and other message boards claiming inside information they didn't want to share with the entire board. I won't say what those claims were or who made them to save those people the embarrassment, but more often than not those claims have been proven false. Suffice to say we have people cruising these boards who (gasp!) don't have a clue yet love to claim they have access to information the rest of us do not.
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Guys that is simply how Chicos works. For two full years he posted thousands of times in defense of Mike Deane despite his indefensible willingness to let what oneil had built slide. deane's absolute inability to recruit and the w/l slide was clear to all. Many fans applauded Cords for stepping in early and making the change. Chicken little i guess would have rather waited another year or two to have things completely implode. Well crean got the brunt of what Deane created in his first two years. nevertheless, while may were applauding MU's move Cicos made thousands of posts defending deane and fearing how this would negatively effect MU, that is in between name dropping. Classic chicken little that hedges every staement and every bet, classic bill clintion in that every statement is hedged with an out and an "I never said that" or a 'it's actually in an email i cannot divulge". Classic politician to be on whatever side looks best down the road. Anyone want to take bets on how long it is until we get a post that chicos was just in a meeting with buzz wiliams and they are best buddies now? the classic name dropper will get his name dropped here in about a week when i am in Milwaukee.
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oh by the way.... was this the article that stated Williams was going to follow Crean to IU? Or was the only snaow balls chance in hell of Willimas considering Iu was if Buzz went there.
Q. Was MU in on these kids before Buzz Williams joined the Marquette staff?
A. I doubt very seriously that Marquette was anything more than Dwyane Wade's old school before Buzz arrived. Actually, after the results of Karon Bradley (from the same HS as Erik Williams), it was a very long shot for you guys to land another kid from that very same high school, especially an underclassman. That just simply proves the impact of pre-existing relationships in recruiting
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MU 84 - +1
Chico's- I understand the concerns that you and others have about the process. But, even though it is early, ya' gotta' be impressed with the initial results. The best is yet to come. Plenty of time to criticize if things don't work out in the future. For now, I am going to enjoy the commitment from Maymon and be excited about our future!
Yup, and I've said so far so good.....on numerous occasions.
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I see Hayward is not capable of apologizing when I gave you the direct quotes from his high school coach. Typical in how you operate.
What's next, another proclamation on a recruit being the best ever when it takes 10 seconds to find other recruits that were rated higher?
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So, your story has gone from "the kid flat out stated UW-madison was his NUMBER ONE choice" to an anoymous guy on a message board sending you an e-mail claiming a kid from Madison grew up wanting to play for the hometown team and a few other places but later concluded that he didn't want to play at UW.
Hmmm. That's a bit different from what you first said, which obviously was a not-so-subtle dig at Buzz, claiming he was feeding off of Bo Ryan's table scraps.
I don't doubt that the kid was interested in UW. I'd say that places him with about 99 percent of the rest of the kids growing up playing basketball in the state, especially if they live north of Milwaukee and west of Waukesha. But that and what you said are not the same thing.
FWIW, I also have received e-mails/PMs from people on this and other message boards claiming inside information they didn't want to share with the entire board. I won't say what those claims were or who made them to save those people the embarrassment, but more often than not those claims have been proven false. Suffice to say we have people cruising these boards who (gasp!) don't have a clue yet love to claim they have access to information the rest of us do not.
Sigh....if this person would like to state it publicly, he can. He's a well respected poster with good information.
And no, I was not taking a swipe at Buzz....what are you is grandmother? Watching her cubs? The kid grew up wanting to play for Wisconsin, Wisconsin didn't recruit him in a meaningful way....does that make it easier to get a recruit? Any answer less than yes would be amazing. Is that a shot at Buzz? No. It's reality. When MU beats Wisconsin head to head for a recruit they both want, then that will be something. This is a great get by Buzz, but one made a lot easier with Wisconsin not coming to the table. How that is a shot at Buzz I don't know.
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Guys that is simply how Chicos works. For two full years he posted thousands of times in defense of Mike Deane despite his indefensible willingness to let what oneil had built slide. deane's absolute inability to recruit and the w/l slide was clear to all. Many fans applauded Cords for stepping in early and making the change. Chicken little i guess would have rather waited another year or two to have things completely implode. Well crean got the brunt of what Deane created in his first two years. nevertheless, while may were applauding MU's move Cicos made thousands of posts defending deane and fearing how this would negatively effect MU, that is in between name dropping. Classic chicken little that hedges every staement and every bet, classic bill clintion in that every statement is hedged with an out and an "I never said that" or a 'it's actually in an email i cannot divulge". Classic politician to be on whatever side looks best down the road. Anyone want to take bets on how long it is until we get a post that chicos was just in a meeting with buzz wiliams and they are best buddies now? the classic name dropper will get his name dropped here in about a week when i am in Milwaukee.
Never met Buzz Williams but seems like a nice guy. Here again, I will admit what I said, something you continue to be incapable of doing. Yes, I was upset about Deane being fired....believed he should have been given another year. Deane was great to me and my family so that meant something to me. I also said, which you don't include, that I was 100% behind Crean once the decision was made. Look, you didn't like Crean which is fine. I didn't like Crean either, but he was doing a great job for Marquette so the benefit of the doubt was going to be given.
Hell, I like Buzz Williams...seems like a terrific guy. Don't know about coaching or anything else, but seems like a terrific guy. Want very much for him to succeed. Still think the hiring was risky and will never change that opinion. Just as I think the signing of Maymon is very risky. High risk = high reward...or high failure. We shall see what happens.
Now....who is that 4th starter you talk of and where's the apology....or are you incapable of it?
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Sigh....if this person would like to state it publicly, he can. He's a well respected poster with good information.
Great. But it's entirely irrelevant.
Even if this so-called insider is 100 percent accurate, what he's telling you is a far, far cry from what you claimed initially.
Let's look at your two statements:
9:59 p.m. -- "MU won Maymon because Wisconsin didn't go after him. The kid flat out stated UW-madison was his NUMBER ONE choice. "
10:57 p.m. -- "Essentially says he grew up wanting to play at Wisconsin and a few other places (typical locations kids grow up wanting to play...the national favorites). However, does not like Bo's style (there's hope for this kid ) and in addition to that, originally the father said a two for one with the other son to Bo."
These two statements are nothing alike. In fact, the second contradicts the first. On the one hand, you have Jeronne saying unequivocally that UW was his first choice. Less than an hour later, you've got someone else telling you (aka hearsay, aka not Jeronne himself) that Jeronne at one time wanted to play for Bucky, among others, but was turned off by the style of play they use now and into the foreseeable future.
Why do you bother to defend yourself on this?
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this reminds me of the Clinton impeachment...
Chicos...what "is" your definition of "is"....
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Great. But it's entirely irrelevant.
Even if this so-called insider is 100 percent accurate, what he's telling you is a far, far cry from what you claimed initially.
Let's look at your two statements:
9:59 p.m. -- "MU won Maymon because Wisconsin didn't go after him. The kid flat out stated UW-madison was his NUMBER ONE choice. "
10:57 p.m. -- "Essentially says he grew up wanting to play at Wisconsin and a few other places (typical locations kids grow up wanting to play...the national favorites). However, does not like Bo's style (there's hope for this kid ) and in addition to that, originally the father said a two for one with the other son to Bo."
These two statements are nothing alike. In fact, the second contradicts the first. On the one hand, you have Jeronne saying unequivocally that UW was his first choice. Less than an hour later, you've got someone else telling you (aka hearsay, aka not Jeronne himself) that Jeronne at one time wanted to play for Bucky, among others, but was turned off by the style of play they use now and into the foreseeable future.
Why do you bother to defend yourself on this?
And no, I was not taking a swipe at Buzz....what are you is grandmother? Watching her cubs? The kid grew up wanting to play for Wisconsin, Wisconsin didn't recruit him in a meaningful way....does that make it easier to get a recruit? Any answer less than yes would be amazing. Is that a shot at Buzz? No. It's reality. When MU beats Wisconsin head to head for a recruit they both want, then that will be something. This is a great get by Buzz, but one made a lot easier with Wisconsin not coming to the table. How that is a shot at Buzz I don't know.
The email I got did say the kid wanted to play at Wisconsin and told his JMM coaches and classmates this. I'd call that a statement...but since the no one was there with a microphone it didn't happen..right? Sigh
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this reminds me of the Clinton impeachment...
Chicos...what "is" your definition of "is"....
Of the 5 or 6 usernames that you were banned under at rivals, etc...which one was your favorite?
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If you hit on 19 because the dealer is showing a ten it is a bad move even if the next card is a two.
If you have 0 interviews for an AD and that AD then barley preforms a search and hires a head coach internally it is a bad move even if the guy is the next john wooden.
If someone from another school walked up to you and said that they interviewed no one for their ad job and that ad interviewed no one for the hc job and promoted a guy internally partially because of the recommendation of the past head coach you'd say: "Wow, good luck with that."
That said we seem to have had good luck and selecting a coach can't be reduced basic math like black jack can. We probably got the best coach available, buzz is probably going to be very successful. (yeah! lets all be happy) A process that was more involved may have swayed the decision to a bad choice so perhaps not searching for an AD who would have put in sometime pursuing other avenues was a good thing. ($h!t happens to smart, thorough, people to)
Buzz looks like he might be the real deal and people seem to think that his success/failior will show that the process was 'good or bad'. But he's a individual case and the people who have problems with the process are speaking in general.
Nothing anyone can say or anything buzz can do will ever convince me that the best hiring process for ANY organization is to not interview qualified candidates and assume that they already know the best person for the job. IN general that is insane. IN this specific case it seems to have (at least we hope) worked out.
The majority of people agree with that last paragraph on some level. The vast majority of us are sick of this topic. If hayward and others would stop bringing it up this place would be better for it.
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And no, I was not taking a swipe at Buzz....what are you is grandmother? Watching her cubs? The kid grew up wanting to play for Wisconsin, Wisconsin didn't recruit him in a meaningful way....does that make it easier to get a recruit? Any answer less than yes would be amazing. Is that a shot at Buzz? No. It's reality. When MU beats Wisconsin head to head for a recruit they both want, then that will be something. This is a great get by Buzz, but one made a lot easier with Wisconsin not coming to the table. How that is a shot at Buzz I don't know.
The email I got did say the kid wanted to play at Wisconsin and told his JMM coaches and classmates this. I'd call that a statement...but since the no one was there with a microphone it didn't happen..right? Sigh
Hee hee. Great line about the grandmother. Mind if I borrow that some time? Giving you full credit, of course.
Most NFL cornerbacks can't backpedal this fast.
You started this discussion by claiming that the reason Maymon verballed to MU is because UW didn't recruit him. You stated that Jeronne has "flat out" said that UW was his NUMBER ONE choice.
When you couldn't back up that story, you moved on to one about someone telling you that Jeronne grew up hoping to play for UW but apparently changed his mind because he didn't like their style of play. A complete contradiction of story #1.
Now when that gets questioned, it's on to story #3: it's just that UW's lack of interest made it "easier." And that someone anonymous privately e-mailed you a story that claims he heard a story about Jeronne telling someone else he wanted to play at UW. Hearsay times four, and a complete contradiction of stories #1 and #2.
And yes, you were taking a shot at Buzz, part of your ongoing effort to minimize everything positive (i.e. Erik Williams isn't really a Buzz recruit, Maymon only came to MU because UW didn't offer, we should ignore any good things said about Buzz by Gillispie, etc.) while exaggerating everything negative (he had - gasp! - a 13-17 season while trying to rebuild a hurricane-ravaged program, Mike DeCourcy said MU's administration panicked [ though he gave the decision a 'B'], incessantly lamenting the super important process, etc.).
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The majority of people agree with that last paragraph on some level. The vast majority of us are sick of this topic. If hayward and others would stop bringing it up this place would be better for it.
Upon that, we can agree. The horse is dead and has been for a while.
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Nothing anyone can say or anything buzz can do will ever convince me that the best hiring process for ANY organization is to not interview qualified candidates and assume that they already know the best person for the job. IN general that is insane. IN this specific case it seems to have (at least we hope) worked out.
The majority of people agree with that last paragraph on some level. The vast majority of us are sick of this topic. If hayward and others would stop bringing it up this place would be better for it.
I agree 100%.
I don't think the process sounds very good... but I'm not on the inside to know the specifics of it... so I can't judge.
Also, MU is in the results business... not the process business.
If Buzz is the real deal... then "F" the process. Hire him and let's get some results.
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Hee hee. Great line about the grandmother. Mind if I borrow that some time? Giving you full credit, of course.
Most NFL cornerbacks can't backpedal this fast.
You started this discussion by claiming that the reason Maymon verballed to MU is because UW didn't recruit him. You stated that Jeronne has "flat out" said that UW was his NUMBER ONE choice.
When you couldn't back up that story, you moved on to one about someone telling you that Jeronne grew up hoping to play for UW but apparently changed his mind because he didn't like their style of play. A complete contradiction of story #1.
Now when that gets questioned, it's on to story #3: it's just that UW's lack of interest made it "easier." And that someone anonymous privately e-mailed you a story that claims he heard a story about Jeronne telling someone else he wanted to play at UW. Hearsay times four, and a complete contradiction of stories #1 and #2.
And yes, you were taking a shot at Buzz, part of your ongoing effort to minimize everything positive (i.e. Erik Williams isn't really a Buzz recruit, Maymon only came to MU because UW didn't offer, we should ignore any good things said about Buzz by Gillispie, etc.) while exaggerating everything negative (he had - gasp! - a 13-17 season while trying to rebuild a hurricane-ravaged program, Mike DeCourcy said MU's administration panicked [ though he gave the decision a 'B'], incessantly lamenting the super important process, etc.).
Pakuni, I did back up that story...sorry it didn't suit your needs, but I'm not going to reveal the poster's name unless he wants to.
But there you go playing psychiatrist again...oh wait, I mean psychologist. One requires a medical degree and you're just using yours as a hobby. No shot at Buzz at all.
It's a simple question Pakuni, is it easier to get a kid from Wisconsin if Wisconsin doesn't offer. Yes or No? I await your answer.
Funny you bring up DeCourcy since your intreptation of his article then (when you were playing psychologist that day) was wrong too....just ask Mike directly.
But keep up with the psycho babble of interpreting what people's intentions are Pakuni. A simple Yes or No on the question would be great...is it easier to get a kid when the best program in the state (currently...can't be debated) isn't offering? I'd say Yes. Most people would say Yes. You interpret it as a shot at Buzz...wow. I'd interpret it as a good opportunity that Buzz seized on and made the most of it (I suppose that's a shot at Buzz too). ::)
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Chicos states....
Williams (Erik) then decided after Crean left he would only play at IU or MU...he decided to stay at MU and even mentioned the Jesuit connection
only from chicos...this is not only laughable it is an outright fabrication. I am calling you out Chicos as an absolute fabricator. Show me one article ..one single quote where eric Willimas ever said he was or would consider IU. absolutely made up by you. What he did say was Iu called him and he was not interested. again i am calling you out and your constant twisting of the truth/lying to defend your diarrhea of the keyboard and pompous attitude.
Pakuni is correct...
EW knew of Mu because of Buzz, considered Mu becuase of Buzz, verballed to Mu beacuse of BUzz, and never wavered on his Mu commitment because of Buzz despite what Chicos might fabricate.
Showed you two articles....several quotes...Indiana and MU were the only considerations...still waiting for you to be a man. Apologies aren't hard...except from you.
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Chicos,
Regarding best program in the state, do you think they will beat us this year at home? Despite the recent changes to our program, I just don't see it.
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Why on earth would I apologize, Williams and his coach made it abundantly clear he would only consider MU or whatever school Buzz went to if he did not get the MU. you turn this into "he was a Crean guy and that is backed up by the fact that he considered IU" Pure twist of words...no different than your post of "another embarrasing headline" or whatever it was last week on the article about Buzz and then backpedalled all day about how you really did not say that. It's Murf like the innuendos and the twisting, it is childish and it is pathetic. rationalize away I at this point could care less your intent is not only blatant it has been repeated so much it is boring. dont you have to serve coffe at some meeting with Peyton? Buzz will know what backslappers not to trust.
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This argument is awful, guys.
Too many quotes and too many personal attacks.
Give it a rest.
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n181/sholmes_05/hamster-pancake.jpg)
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This argument is awful, guys.
Too many quotes and too many personal attacks.
Give it a rest.
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n181/sholmes_05/hamster-pancake.jpg)
What he said...
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Chicos,
Regarding best program in the state, do you think they will beat us this year at home? Despite the recent changes to our program, I just don't see it.
I think Marquette will beat Wisconsin in Milwaukee this year. Senior leadership, in Milwaukee = MU win.
Wisconsin is the best program currently in the state....10 straight NCAAs, multiple conference titles (even though their conference is weaker then the Big East), multiple conference tourney titles, etc. I think their brand of hoops blows, it's boring, very little creativity for individual players, if they get behind by a large margin they're cooked, etc. But their program is the best in the state right now, in my opinion.
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Why on earth would I apologize, Williams and his coach made it abundantly clear he would only consider MU or whatever school Buzz went to if he did not get the MU.
Exactly...and that was Indiana. Just as his coach said. You asked for the quotes and stories, I provided them. And now your own words confirm what I said which was that there were two schools...IU and MU. Direct quote which you just ignore.
Of course the irony or ironies is that Buzz is at MU right now because of Crean hiring him initially and then Crean pushing hard that MU hire him as the head coach. Will you hold that against Buzz? ;D Since Crean engineered it does that hurt your man crush?
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As I recall Mark Few was an assistant hired without looking anywhere else. Is that a bad hire too because the process was supposedly flawed? Heck, I think there were posters who wanted MU to take a run at him, even though he'd never leave GU or Spokane for MU.
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As I recall Mark Few was an assistant hired without looking anywhere else. Is that a bad hire too because the process was supposedly flawed? Heck, I think there were posters who wanted MU to take a run at him, even though he'd never leave GU or Spokane for MU.
great metaphore! ::)
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As I recall Mark Few was an assistant hired without looking anywhere else. Is that a bad hire too because the process was supposedly flawed? Heck, I think there were posters who wanted MU to take a run at him, even though he'd never leave GU or Spokane for MU.
Have you spoken to a GU fan of late...many want him out. Feel they have underachieved at GU. But as we've said ad nauseum there are examples of it working and examples of it not working. Examples of coaches at midmajors working and examples of midmajor head coaches not working. The argument can go on forever.
MU went after Miller and Bennett....Crean pushed his guy hard.....his guy was hired and so far he's doing well. Let's hope it continues. We'll know in a few years.
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Have you spoken to a GU fan of late...many want him out. Feel they have underachieved at GU. But as we've said ad nauseum there are examples of it working and examples of it not working. Examples of coaches at midmajors working and examples of midmajor head coaches not working. The argument can go on forever.
MU went after Miller and Bennett....Crean pushed his guy hard.....his guy was hired and so far he's doing well. Let's hope it continues. We'll know in a few years.
Mission accomplished
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84...Well then, anyone we would have recruited would have filled the hole that Nick Williams left...Mother Teresa would have filled the hole if you're going down that path. Yes, a body does fill that hole.
What's with the stupid all-or-nothing analogies. First you try to imply that I stated that Butler was better than Nick Wiliams. Then you tried to suggest that he's no better than a 80 year old woman who's been dead for 11 years.
Instead of some convoluted attempt at eggagerating my statement, how about taking my comment in proper context (which I assumed you were intelligent enough to assume without my spelling it out). MU had a hole. Buzz signed a guy who by all reports is a Big-East calibre player. Buzz signed that player over an offer from the #2 team in the SEC, who originally signed him out of HS. Buzz did so in the first week of being named Head Coach. I think that qualifies as a recruiting success.
The national coach of the year didn't land anybody close to Butler's ability in his first week on the job at Providence.
On the Wisconsin thing....again, if I'm misinterpreting, then by all means I apologize. I took your comments to mean we got "big" from the state of Wisconsin, something we haven't been able to do in a long time in winning over a recruit from the Badger state. Only problem with that is the last 4 recruits we've lost have all been to the Wisconsin Badgers. The Badgers were not giving an offer to Maymon so the shine of winning this big seems a bit different then the others we have lost to UW-Madison in the past....simply because UW-Madison wasn't a player involved in the recruitment.
You seem smart. I'm not going to spell it out any further.
It's absurd for you to argue that landing Maymon doesn't count as a recruiting win.
On your last point...I'd be curious exactly where Buzz was going to be other then at Marquette or Indiana (as an assistant...which wasn't going to happen because Crean was pushing for Buzz to take the MU job which is why he didn't take him to begin with)....or more importantly, what head coaching job was he going to be at other then Marquette?
Let's look at this very simply:
Scenario 1: Crean leaves Buzz behind to go for the MU head coach job. MU hires Buzz.
Scenario 2: Crean leaves Buzz behind to go for the MU head coach job. MU waits a week and interviews others, and hires one of them over Buzz. Buzz rejoins Crean at Indiana. Buzz is most definitely NOT still at MU after a week.
In Scenario 2, MU loses Fulce, Otule, Butler, Maymon, E. Williams and either McNeal or James.
You do realize that Crean wanted Buzz to get this gig...right? MU went after Miller and Bennett and in the background was Buzz as the next option with Crean pushing hard. Buzz wasn't going anywhere...absolutely not going anywhere if MU wanted to wait another week. NOWHERE!
I'm sorry if I misunderstood--I thought you wanted MU to actually interview other coaches and give them due consideration during that that extra week.
Now, perhaps I'm confused by this whole "interview other candidates" thing that you wanted MU to do, but it seems to me that one possible outcome when you "interview" someone is that you might wind up offering THEM the job, rather than the guy you already interviewed.
Or did you just want a sham delay in the process, where no other candidates would be considered.
Again, I thought my post was pretty clear--one of the possible outcomes of waiting a week to interview others is that you hire one of them instead of Buzz. And in that case, if MU actually hires someone other than Buzz, it throws cold water on your statement that Buzz wasn't going anywhere. I think even you would admit that if Brad Brownell were hired, then Buzz almost certainly would have gone somehere--almost certainly to Indiana.
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Crean did not want Buzz at IU he wanted Buzz at MU because he felt he could beat Buzz easier. Strong bought into the TC support and the rest is history. In my opinion allowing TC any say in the hire is what really makes the process flawed.
If we lose players without the Buzz hire who cares? Every new coach loses players, sometimes on purpose. The only guy that was returning that we could lose was Mbakwe. Everyone else had nowhere to go.
In regards to recruits for next year, you cannot speculate on who comes or not. New coach maybe would hate Maymon or love him more than Buzz. Every coach recruits players for different reasons.
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Have you spoken to a GU fan of late...many want him out. Feel they have underachieved at GU. But as we've said ad nauseum there are examples of it working and examples of it not working. Examples of coaches at midmajors working and examples of midmajor head coaches not working. The argument can go on forever.
MU went after Miller and Bennett....Crean pushed his guy hard.....his guy was hired and so far he's doing well. Let's hope it continues. We'll know in a few years.
In fact I have spoken to many, having served on a Board at GU. As you know, success in many seasons brings expectations for greater success in all seasons. So, there are always some who immediately want a coach out when in one season the expectations aren't met. I predict Few will be there as long as he wants, that he will continue to have success at a mid major university that has developed a strong national reputation. He recruits pretty well. Finally, I think the vast majority of GU students, alum and faculty are BIG supporters of Few.
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This is some good entertainment now that the reruns are starting on TV. Let's face it, for the biggest Buzz supporters like myself, he was, at best, our 4th choice. I liked Buzz as he can recruit--and I feel he can recruit at a high level. But, let's look at progress so far:
>>He can get high recruits to commit to him and MU as a head coach.
>>His staff looks to be better than the optimists here thought based on the offers and mentions.
>>Every one of Buzz's recommits or recruits mentioned religion. Buzz has adopted this as a sell point about MU. "It's Gesu, it's Gesu"
>>Buzz is VERY organized. He took care of business first--hiring, recruiting, retaining, preparing--vs. alumni, fan relations. Good to have a basketball coach again. His Krause interview showed that.
>>The quick hire helped us in recruiting.
So far so good as I hoped. Top shelf job by the Buzz Man!
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Gymbar...you can not honestly fully beleive what you typed here....
"Crean did not want Buzz at IU he wanted Buzz at MU because he felt he could beat Buzz easier. Strong bought into the TC support and the rest is history. In my opinion allowing TC any say in the hire is what really makes the process flawed. "
I mean seriously beat Buzz? When will he ever play Buzz and if you mean on the recruiting trail Buzz will be only 1 of many other suitors for kids we are both going up against. Why would he hire Buzz if he thought he was so incompitent, and you really think he hired Buzz as part of a master plan so that when he got a job somewhere else he could recommend Buzz and then go steal all the guys Buzz recruited in future years? Boy that is really a stretch...pretty poorly thought out.
Let me give you my version...Crean like him or not and i never have...hired him becuase he new he was a very very very well regarded young coach that could recruit like a amdman which is critical in a BCS conference, or any conference for that matter. Then upon leaving he supposedly gave Mu a recommendation of Buzz, we then have no idea of what weight Mu put on that Buzz's hiring could be completely exclusive of that Cottingham could have been on top of crean's master conspiracy of identifying Buzz as some loser that he could put in his place when he moved on. But nevertheless, it is in buzz's best interest to remain friends with Crean. Similar to dean Smith recommending jim Boylan to Mu becuase he was out of schollies would it not make sense for crean to recommend a kid that wanted to go to IU to a school like Mu because he though Buzz would do a good job with him and Buzz was his friend over that same kid going to a illinois or a Purdue? If IU and Mu both identify the same kid and recruit him along with say a MSU, and a Purdue and then IU takes a verbal from another kid filling them up on schollies it is only in Creans best interest to call that kid and say sorry junior but we just took a verball from so and so but i really like you and your game and I think Mu would be a tremendous place you really should consider MU. Not only does it help a friend but more importantly for Crean it keeps him out of the Big Ten.
I have never really liked Crean but buzz having a relationship with crean is good for Buzz and good for Mu therefore. Just like dean smith not wanting boylan at a Maryland and also having a realitonship with Al was good for al and good for Mu.
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Mr. Hayward---My point is actually right on target, trust me. Never said TC hired Buzz as some master plan. As thing unfolded TC pushed hard for Buzz for two reasons:
1. He felt he could outrecruit Buzz, which in theory he did by getting NW and others.
2. Felt Buzz would go backwards, thus making his legacy appear that much better.
You can believe or not believe me. But, this is not just some crazy theory. TC pushed Strong hard for Buzz and he got it done. It was not out of loyalty to Buzz because there was no long relationship between the two.
Judging by Buzz's recruiting, especially of players I happen to love, TC might have shot himself in the foot. Time will tell. If you thought I meant IU would beat MU on the court my apologies. I assumed my point of beating MU in recruiting would be understood. TC wants nothing more than Buzz to fail.
FYI---I am beginning to believe that Buzz is slippery in a good way. He might be using TC and will end up beating him. I think Buzz knows how to close a deal.
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Mr. Hayward---My point is actually right on target, trust me. Never said TC hired Buzz as some master plan. As thing unfolded TC pushed hard for Buzz for two reasons:
1. He felt he could outrecruit Buzz, which in theory he did by getting NW and others.
2. Felt Buzz would go backwards, thus making his legacy appear that much better.
You can believe or not believe me. But, this is not just some crazy theory. TC pushed Strong hard for Buzz and he got it done. It was not out of loyalty to Buzz because there was no long relationship between the two.
Judging by Buzz's recruiting, especially of players I happen to love, TC might have shot himself in the foot. Time will tell. If you thought I meant IU would beat MU on the court my apologies. I assumed my point of beating MU in recruiting would be understood. TC wants nothing more than Buzz to fail.
FYI---I am beginning to believe that Buzz is slippery in a good way. He might be using TC and will end up beating him. I think Buzz knows how to close a deal.
So you think TC is smart enough and shrewd enough to pull off a plan to get Buzz into place at MU (with an expectation that he will be able to beat Buzz)... but TC isn't smart enough to know that Buzz might actually be a good coach?
Just not sure that makes a lot of sense.
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2002mualum---Buzz might end being a crappy coach. While excited about signing of Maymon I am not yet suggesting we retire the # '09 in honor of Buzz's first year. Time will tell if TC was right. But I can say this, TC and 6 billion other people on the planet would not have hired Buzz at MU. So, yes TC is shrewd enough to get Buzz hired.
If you were TC and needed kids would you rather have Buzz announced as new coach or an established coach. Come on and think things out. In TC's mind the worst thing that could happen is Buzz continues what he established. If I were him that would be a risk I would take anyday of the week. Hopefully Buzz outsmarts him. If he keeps promising starting jobs he will get players.
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I'm in no way saying that Buzz is a great coach (still TBD).
However, in your previous post you implied that you thought Buzz was going to be successful.
I'm just saying:
You think Buzz will be succesful.
You think Crean was smart enough and powerful enough to put Buzz in that position.
But, Crean didn't know how good Buzz could be?
I'm not saying that Buzz is a known commodity... but if Crean is smart enough to try and get Buzz hired (in an effort to limit competition), don't you think Crean could/would realize Buzz might be really good?
I realize the alternative might have been Keno Davis or somebody... but if Crean is smart enough to figure out a way to name his replacement (as you are convinced of) then he should be smart enough to know if Buzz would be better or worse than the other names out there.
I guess my point is, I don't think Crean is as smart or shrewd as you think. I don't think he is the one who got Buzz hired in an effort to make himself look better.
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gymbar...you state....
"Mr. Hayward---My point is actually right on target, trust me. Never said TC hired Buzz as some master plan. As thing unfolded TC pushed hard for Buzz for two reasons:
1. He felt he could outrecruit Buzz, which in theory he did by getting NW and others.
2. Felt Buzz would go backwards, thus making his legacy appear that much better.
You can believe or not believe me. But, this is not just some crazy theory. TC pushed Strong hard for Buzz and he got it done. "
How in the heck could you have any knowledge of this?
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I'm in no way saying that Buzz is a great coach (still TBD).
However, in your previous post you implied that you thought Buzz was going to be successful.
I'm just saying:
You think Buzz will be succesful.
You think Crean was smart enough and powerful enough to put Buzz in that position.
But, Crean didn't know how good Buzz could be?
I'm not saying that Buzz is a known commodity... but if Crean is smart enough to try and get Buzz hired (in an effort to limit competition), don't you think Crean could/would realize Buzz might be really good?
I realize the alternative might have been Keno Davis or somebody... but if Crean is smart enough to figure out a way to name his replacement (as you are convinced of) then he should be smart enough to know if Buzz would be better or worse than the other names out there.
I guess my point is, I don't think Crean is as smart or shrewd as you think. I don't think he is the one who got Buzz hired in an effort to make himself look better.
This is like those people who say 9/11 was a Bush conspiracy and in the next breath say he is a moron who can't get out of his own way.
You can't be selectively smart
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This is like those people who say 9/11 was a Bush conspiracy and in the next breath say he is a moron who can't get out of his own way.
You can't be selectively smart
DING DING DING DING. I was going to say the same thing yesterday but afraid that it would be construed as political. Exactly right. The same people that say the greatest most elaborate crime in human history would be pulled of by this guy are the same people that say he can't tie his shoes. Uhm, ok.
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2002---I hope Buzz is successful. Actually I might be the only person on here that has the opinion that Buzz might be slippery enough to be good. I think Buzz might do almost anything to get players. I love that kind of recruiting. To me grades and good behavior is for the rest of the student body that does not play ball. We are not Duke, lets recruit basketball players then students. When MU gives out academic scholarships they do not look at the kids potential influence in intramural ball so why hold ball players to different standards.
TC might have under estimated Buzz. TC took a risk and we will See how it plays out.
Hayward---You think I would tell you how I know?
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TC might have under estimated Buzz. TC took a risk and we will See how it plays out.
Hayward---You think I would tell you how I know?
Again, TC is smart enough and shrewd enough to get Buzz hired, but didn't realize Buzz might actually be a good coach?
TC worked with Buzz for a year... if TC is smart enough to manipulate Strong and MU, he is certainly smart enough to know what Buzz is capable of.
I subscribe to Occam's Razor... and this doesn't fit.
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I agree with the others and think that gymbar's argument are boderline delusional. Maybe just maybe Crean left MU in a good manner, what if that had happened would his recommendation of Buzz still be construe by gymbar as a conspiracy? Or even crazier still maybe crean although he left Mu still has trmendous feelings for Mu and wants them to hire the best possible coach and felt it was Buzz for the same reasons he hired him in the first place? just a thought. Seems more logical that the grassy knoll theories coming form gymbar
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2002--Why are you so convinced that Buzz will prove TC wrong and actually be good? I am hoping he is but the jury is still out. Odds are still big time in the camp that Buzz fails and gets canned.
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2002--Why are you so convinced that Buzz will prove TC wrong and actually be good? I am hoping he is but the jury is still out. Odds are still big time in the camp that Buzz fails and gets canned.
Point to a shred of evidence since Buzz became the head coach at Marquette that points to his likelihood of failing????
So far has he only done good. That doesn't mean he can't fail, as we have seen him coach, make in-game adjustments, etc. but to date no evidence has surfaced that says he can't succeed.
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2002--Why are you so convinced that Buzz will prove TC wrong and actually be good? I am hoping he is but the jury is still out. Odds are still big time in the camp that Buzz fails and gets canned.
I'm actually not convinced at all (still TBD on Buzz)
I'm using your statements about buzz... you yourself are the one stating that Buzz could be successful and that Crean may have underestimated him.
Again, I'm not sure how Crean could be super duper smart, and super duper dumb at the same time.
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2002mu alum---TC took a calculated rish. He nothing to lose if Buzz was a success and a lot to gain if he failed. If Buzz was so frickin' good TC would have taken him to IU and had him there building that program. He did not care if Buzz came to IU, isn't that a warning sign to you?
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2002mu alum---TC took a calculated rish. He nothing to lose if Buzz was a success and a lot to gain if he failed. If Buzz was so frickin' good TC would have taken him to IU and had him there building that program. He did not care if Buzz came to IU, isn't that a warning sign to you?
Buzz was headed to IU if he didn't get the head coaching job at Marquette.
For obvious reasons (several hundred thousand of them, I would imagine) Buzz chose to be the head coach at MU instead of an assistant at IU.
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"Judging by Buzz's recruiting, especially of players I happen to love, TC might have shot himself in the foot. Time will tell. If you thought I meant IU would beat MU on the court my apologies. I assumed my point of beating MU in recruiting would be understood. TC wants nothing more than Buzz to fail.
FYI---I am beginning to believe that Buzz is slippery in a good way. He might be using TC and will end up beating him. I think Buzz knows how to close a deal."
I don't know if Buzz will be successful. I'll say it again, I don't know if Buzz will be successful.
I'm using your previous posts. You seem to think Buzz is going to do well (see above), but you also seem to think TC put Buzz in place to beat him.
My question is still, how can Crean be so smart and so dumb at the same time. Smart enough to manipulate MU, but dumb enough to put a guy in place who might do well.
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2002mu alum---TC took a calculated rish. He nothing to lose if Buzz was a success and a lot to gain if he failed. If Buzz was so frickin' good TC would have taken him to IU and had him there building that program. He did not care if Buzz came to IU, isn't that a warning sign to you?
I believe from folks I have spoken to that Crean would have been quite pleased to have Buzz go to IU with him, but Buzz stayed around from the get go and with Crean's urging so he could be in position to take the MU job. Crean backed that play and the administration bought into it.
Just as KO suggested Mike Deane for the MU job when KO left. There's a little bit of history on this with MU in the last 15 years.
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Chico's---Of course TC would have taken Buzz if MU was not suckered into the hire. But, that does not make the process any less flawed. You are 100% correct on KO recommended Deane and the saps falling for it. The whole idea behind both KO and TC's motives are the same. They did not want MU to succeed after they left.
BTW, I agree 100% on I hated how KO treated Martha and it does tarnish his image to me. TC and KO have a done of similarities. Biggest one to me is they both did an unreal job at restoring credibility to MU.
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TC and KO have a done of similarities. Biggest one to me is they both did an unreal job at restoring credibility to MU.
+1
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Maybe after MU's best recruitng class in 25 years our AD should actaully receive a little credit from the chicken littles. Gymbar, chicos, Nola...who would like to be the first?
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Hayward, you've brought this up on 3 different topics! Enough already, we get it!!
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How pathetic.
I can take a three man waterballoon launcher to a used car lot, fire it, and buy the car it hits. If it hits an awesome car that lasts years and is priced a few grand under blue book that doesn't mean it's a good 'process'.
Not interviewing for a GM, CEO, AD, ect spot and then having that person not interview for the coach, VP, manager, sales rep, ect spot will never be a good 'process'.
That DOESN"T mean buzz isn't a future HOFer, it just means we got lucky if he is.
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Hayward----Two different topics. Had this debate too long. Buzz can win 6 NCAA championships and the hiring process still was EXTREMELY flawed.
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Maybe after MU's best recruitng class in 25 years our AD should actaully receive a little credit from the chicken littles. Gymbar, chicos, Nola...who would like to be the first?
There you go with incorrect facts again Blackswan / Ahoyahballscout.
This is NOT our best recruiting class in 25 years. It's a nice class, I'm thrilled for Buzz and MU. It is NOT the best class in 25 years, it's not even the best class in the last 5 years. Your hyperbole knows no bounds.
Congrats to Buzz....yes, the hiring process was flawed and if you read back what Nola, myself and many others said....we hope like hell MU got it right. Maybe they did. The Summer before his first season is not the timeline to determine that....is it?
Your hatred for Crean is clinical. Crean Derangement Syndrome.
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actaully it is...better and deeper than 2004, better deeper and more athletic than 1990.
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actaully it is...better and deeper than 2004, better deeper and more athletic than 1990.
Not according to the recruiting rankings...which are subjective, but at least people that are paid to do them. Now, if you think it's the best recruiting class in 25 years, well have at it.
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There you go with incorrect facts again Blackswan / Ahoyahballscout.
This is NOT our best recruiting class in 25 years. It's a nice class, I'm thrilled for Buzz and MU. It is NOT the best class in 25 years, it's not even the best class in the last 5 years. Your hyperbole knows no bounds.
Congrats to Buzz....yes, the hiring process was flawed and if you read back what Nola, myself and many others said....we hope like hell MU got it right. Maybe they did. The Summer before his first season is not the timeline to determine that....is it?
Your hatred for Crean is clinical. Crean Derangement Syndrome.
Anew acronym for the board: CDS