Is the hiring process still flawed??

[RawdogDX]

Really, then the reverse could be true as well.  We could have went through this overdone process and hired some coach that did great at the University of Whoville and everyone would be happy.  Then he fails miserably. 

So basically quit whining about the "process", so far we should be lauding the hire.

also what i was saying.  EXCEPT that no one was whining about the hire, if you look at this post it was started by hayward who was a buzz lover before crean even left.

[ChicosBailBonds]

the gym bar.... you can in no way deem the process flawed when you have no idea what the process entailed. 

additionally, the focus should entirely be on results..in as much as any process that ultimately has a bad result could be deemed bad and vice versa.

therefore to this point the process is not flawed but has been wonderful!!

In as much as Buzz has now gotten a commitment and a recommitment from the two highest rated forwards to Mu in the last 10 years!!  how flawed is that!!!  we could have had capobianco!!!

So for those of us that have spoken to a BOT member or two or three and have had other conversations with university folks, we have no idea what the process entailed....interesting.  

And no, those are not the two highest rated forwards for MU in the last 10 years....nevertheless, great gets.  Now we need to land a solid guard that can actually get the ball to them.

[wampum77]

Chico,

I'm one of those who maintains TC underachieved for the opportunity that was given to him.  Specifically his limitations were with regard to: 1) consistent and appropriate recruiting, 2) in-game coaching and 3) inter personal relationships.  What did he do well, motivate players and hype himself.  Numbers 1 and 2 played a large part in his leaving ie., he could not cut it in the BE.  I am very glad he was smart enough to see his limitations and leave MU.

[esotericmindguy]

also what i was saying.  EXCEPT that no one was whining about the hire, if you look at this post it was started by hayward who was a buzz lover before crean even left.

I guess I was referring to the sentiment on this board with previous posts.

[mu_hilltopper]

The LOI is the exact reason why people claim EW as a Buzz recruit. He hasn't signed anything yet kept his commitment. They feel that rightfully claims him to Buzz and not Crean.

I stand corrected.   EW is Crean's recruit because he called Tom Crean and spoke to him, committed to Marquette, and he has decided to honor his verbal commitment, absent a written LOI. 

Sorry, but EW was in the boat when Tom Crean was captain of the ship.  Buzz gets credit for keeping him in the well, but not for getting him into the ship.

[RawdogDX]

I guess I was referring to the sentiment on this board with previous posts.

understood, but they have stopped bringing it up.  I think the only people who bring it up are the ones who think that they need to change peoples minds

[MR.HAYWARD]

EW and maymom are in fact the 2 highest rated recruits for Mu in the last 10 years show me an Mu forward rated in the top 60 ....not merrit, not lazar and Not trevor  sorry chicos they are in fact the two highest rated forwards signed to Mu in the last 10 years which encompasses creans 9 years and buzz's 40 days on the job!! 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

The hiring process doesn't change a thing, it remains flawed....remains risky.  That doesn't mean it can't work nor did anyone say that it couldn't.

Now, if you also go look at almost everyone's posts that felt it was flawed, we all said to a man that he could succeed, hoped he would succeed, thought he could succeed but didn't think the risk was necessary.

Even saying all that....we'll know if he succeeded years from now (hell, there are idiots on this board that said Crean wasn't successful after 9 years....does this mean if Buzz does anything short of Crean he isn't successful?), not a 6 weeks after being hired because he got a verbal from a kid who still has to qualify....right?

Great get by Buzz.  Hope like hell the kid can get it together on the grade side because he sounds like a special talent on the court.

This is an interesting debate.

Chicos, I agree with you on one-hand because from what I have read and gathered... MU didn't do a lot of interviewing before making the hire. That makes me nervous. There is a reason for process and procedure, it usually limits mistakes.

However, on the other hand, I am willing to admit that Steve Cottingham probably knows 1000 times more about hiring a coach than I do. I can admit that I love college hoops, but hiring coaches is outside of my area of expertise.

I'm a results driven guy, and so if Buzz gets results... then I will say the process was a success because it yielded a favorable result. It was a risky choice by MU, but could pay off HUGE.


Let's look at another scenario:

- Cottingham loves Buzz, but still feels the pressure to bring in a coach with more experience. MU hires Keno Davis after a thorough search (which everybody applauds)

- Keno Davis has a average 5 year run similar to Deane's (early success, but program going downhill each year)

- Buzz moves onto another school... and eventually moves up to head coach somewhere and becomes a huge success.

Now, I realize this is all conjecture, and hindsight is always 20/20... but if this happened, I would consider the process a failure.

MU had Buzz in house, didn't recognize his talents, and let him get away. Davis was experienced, and appeared like a good hire, but didn't live up to expectations. In this case, the process led MU down the wrong path. Therefore, it's a failure.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: The process argument is interesting, but let's all just admit that the goal of the process is to yield results. I'm all for structure and thoroughness, but I also recognize that sometimes the "right" decision won't be popular for a number of years (see Mike McCarthy), and sometimes the right decision needs to be made without 1000 people's input.

If Cottingham and his inner circle think Buzz is the guy... then more power to them. If Buzz fails miserably, I'll be the first to say it was a bad hire. If he succeeds... then Cottingham will look like a genius.

[THEGYMBAR]

2002mualum---Buzz can win six coach of the year awards and nine national championships and it still will not be because of Cottingham. The hire was risky and hopefully Buzz wins nine trophies for us. Buzz controls his destiny and that is great. Cottingham should stick with the girls programs.

[Pakuni]

Sorry, but EW was in the boat when Tom Crean was captain of the ship.  Buzz gets credit for keeping him in the well, but not for getting him into the ship.

If not for Buzz, EW not only wouldn't have got into the ship, he would not have heard from the ship or even considered the ship. He would have boarded another ship without giving the Marquette ship a passing glance.
Williams will be at MU because of Buzz Williams. It's really not even debatable.

Your Crean argument might hold a drop of water if TC were still coach here. But when Crean left, EW could have re-opened his recruitment and gone anywhere he wanted without any LOI issues, etc. He chose to stay at MU for the same reason he picked MU in the first place: Buzz Williams.

[ChicosBailBonds]

If not for Buzz, EW not only wouldn't have got into the ship, he would not have heard from the ship or even considered the ship. He would have boarded another ship without giving the Marquette ship a passing glance.
Williams will be at MU because of Buzz Williams. It's really not even debatable.

Your Crean argument might hold a drop of water if TC were still coach here. But when Crean left, EW could have re-opened his recruitment and gone anywhere he wanted without any LOI issues, etc. He chose to stay at MU for the same reason he picked MU in the first place: Buzz Williams.

Yup, he probably wouldn't be at MU if not for Buzz.  You can say that about 100's of kids each year as usually it's the relationship with the assistant coach that gets the kid their to begin with.  But they play for the head coach, to deny that or sluff it off is not accurate. 

I forgot, who hired Buzz at MU?  Who pushed the BOT and the university to hire Buzz as head coach.  I'll hang up and listen

[ChicosBailBonds]

EW and maymom are in fact the 2 highest rated recruits for Mu in the last 10 years show me an Mu forward rated in the top 60 ....not merrit, not lazar and Not trevor  sorry chicos they are in fact the two highest rated forwards signed to Mu in the last 10 years which encompasses creans 9 years and buzz's 40 days on the job!! 

Sigh....well here are the facts....I'll sit back and listen to you spin.  Note, I think these two gets are TERRIFIC, but in fact they are not the 2 highest rated recruits for MU in the last ten years.

Steve Novak...a FORWARD...was ranked 30th by Prep Stars...link below

http://home.nc.rr.com/rsci/RSCI_100_Fall_2002.htm

I stopped looking after Novak (the first player I looked up)...I'm sure there are others but since the point has already been made, why bother.

The rankings change, the final rankings on these kids isn't even done yet....just as Novak dropped for the final rating by Prep Stars later that year (from 30 to 45...mostly because he signed with Marquette and that makes players drop in the ratings...very few move up after signing with MU.  Many of these "experts" like to wait and see who signs with UNC, UCLA, Duke, etc and suddenly their ratings for those players improve while players they had very strong seem to drop slightly when they sign with a Gonzaga, Marquette, etc....it's all BS, but it happens.  It's about the hype.). 

Compare APPLES TO APPLES.  Wait until the final rankings are done....until then, you remain factually WRONG!  There are many recruiting services out there and you're always going to find large spreads.  Hell, Nick Williams was as high as 35 and as low as 165. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chico,

I'm one of those who maintains TC underachieved for the opportunity that was given to him.  Specifically his limitations were with regard to: 1) consistent and appropriate recruiting, 2) in-game coaching and 3) inter personal relationships.  What did he do well, motivate players and hype himself.  Numbers 1 and 2 played a large part in his leaving ie., he could not cut it in the BE.  I am very glad he was smart enough to see his limitations and leave MU.

He was a horse's ass, but he took a program on a losing trajectory, crappy attendance, etc and put them in the top 15 in attendance, top 25 the last three years on the court, etc, etc.

He remains a horse's ass, but he did a lot of good things for Marquette.  I'll ask again, if Crean wasn't a success then why is he at Indiana?  Secondly, if he wasn't a success does this mean anything short of 5 NCAA appearances in the next 7 years and a Final Four appearance would be what then....considering Crean didn't do anything? I'm just asking

[MR.HAYWARD]

pakuni is dead on correct.  When crean left it gave Williams an opportunity to leave, in fact eric Williams coach evn stated Crean called him to recruit him to Indiana, there is some speculation as to whether he let EW or his current players know he was moving on first. 
regardless, as only a verbal he could have reopend his recruitment seeing as how "he verballed to Crean"  but for some reason he made glowing comments about buzz and that he wanted to stay at Mu for those reasons.  Yet for some reason certain people want to still lable the EW verbal as "all Crean", funny that it is the same people that continue to state it "was a flawed process"

I love flawed processes!!

[MR.HAYWARD]

looks like our flawed process just might land us the best Mu recruitng class in yraers

[THEGYMBAR]

It will be all Buzz when he gets the kid. Right now the kid can change his mind and that could happen. His stock will rise quickly and others will jump in and try and get him. He close to Buzz's but not there yet.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

2002mualum---Buzz can win six coach of the year awards and nine national championships and it still will not be because of Cottingham. The hire was risky and hopefully Buzz wins nine trophies for us. Buzz controls his destiny and that is great. Cottingham should stick with the girls programs.

COMPLETELY DISAGREE!

If Buzz is a huge success... then give Cottingham credit for making a tough/unpopular decision, but hiring the great candidate.

You may not be "in love" with the process... but give credit where credit is due.

Again, sometimes we need to admit that somebody (Cottingham) may know more about hiring a coach than we do.

[Pakuni]

I forgot, who hired Buzz at MU?  Who pushed the BOT and the university to hire Buzz as head coach.  I'll hang up and listen

Now you're getting silly.
Lessee ... Dwyane Wade came to Marquette to play for Tom Crean.
But wait, Bill Cords hired Tom Crean, so maybe Bill Cords should get the credit for Dwyane Wade.
But wait, the Rev. John Raynor hired Bill Cords.
So there you have it. John Raynor, who died in 1997, brought Dwyane Wade to Marquette three years after his passing.  

Let's keep this simple.
Erik Williams is coming to Marquette because of Buzz Williams.
If he wanted to play for Tom Crean, I'm pretty sure there would be a scholarship waiting for him in Bloomington. He chose instead to play at Marquette for Buzz Williams. Not because he had a commitment. Not because he was legally bound to it. Not because it would have been a hassle to go elsewhere.
He wants to play for Buzz Williams.

Why are you trying so hard to minimize that fact? Are you that eager to be right about the all-important process that you'll give Buzz credit only begrudgingly?

[THEGYMBAR]

2002mualum---If it was a tough/potentially unpopular hire that was conducted like a top 20 program I would agree with you. This hire and the process was an inexperienced dimwit that knows nothing about running a top program.

He would have hired Buzz on the Saturday of FF but was talked out of making that decision. Would he had been smarter if he hired Buzz on Saturday vs. Tuesday. He is an AD in over his head and made a knee jerk hire. No credit for any success.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

2002mualum---If it was a tough/potentially unpopular hire that was conducted like a top 20 program I would agree with you. This hire and the process was an inexperienced dimwit that knows nothing about running a top program.

He would have hired Buzz on the Saturday of FF but was talked out of making that decision. Would he had been smarter if he hired Buzz on Saturday vs. Tuesday. He is an AD in over his head and made a knee jerk hire. No credit for any success.

What makes you qualified?

It's easy to post criticism on the internet... it's much harder to be an AD.
 

[THEGYMBAR]

2002mualum----I'm not qualified and did not apply for the job. Cottingham is not qualified and did not apply for the job either. To defend Cottingham or the hire you either have to be Cottingham, a family member or someone involved in hiring the dimwit.

[ChicosBailBonds]

looks like our flawed process just might land us the best Mu recruitng class in yraers

Could be...good thing the previous coaching administration got MU to where it was to help in that process.  We are in the best shape we've been in probably in 25 years....Buzz needs to take advantage of that.  So far he has.  Keep it going.


EDIT:  For Tony Reeder...the term "we" means Marquette University and the Athletic Department.  As an alumnus I felt compelled to use the term "we". 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Now you're getting silly.
Lessee ... Dwyane Wade came to Marquette to play for Tom Crean.
But wait, Bill Cords hired Tom Crean, so maybe Bill Cords should get the credit for Dwyane Wade.
But wait, the Rev. John Raynor hired Bill Cords.
So there you have it. John Raynor, who died in 1997, brought Dwyane Wade to Marquette three years after his passing.  

Let's keep this simple.
Erik Williams is coming to Marquette because of Buzz Williams.
If he wanted to play for Tom Crean, I'm pretty sure there would be a scholarship waiting for him in Bloomington. He chose instead to play at Marquette for Buzz Williams. Not because he had a commitment. Not because he was legally bound to it. Not because it would have been a hassle to go elsewhere.
He wants to play for Buzz Williams.

Why are you trying so hard to minimize that fact? Are you that eager to be right about the all-important process that you'll give Buzz credit only begrudgingly?

So just for clarity, if Crean was still here and Buzz say got the head coaching job at Tulsa next year....by your logic Erik would transfer to Tulsa since he came here only for Buzz...is that correct?

You're the one being silly....of course he wants to play for Marquette under Buzz....but he also signed on to play for Marquetet when Crean when he was here.  He decided to stay. 

At the end of the day, to suggest this kid wasn't committed to MU by Crean while head coach is one of the silliest things I've read on this board.  He verballed to MU while Crean was head coach.  Crean hired Buzz to get recruits...Buzz got them.  That's what Buzz was paid to do...he did it well.  Williams (Erik) then decided after Crean left he would only play at IU or MU...he decided to stay at MU and even mentioned the Jesuit connection (perhaps we should credit Ignatius Loyola as well?).  It's terrific that Williams is still here and recommitted to MU....the key component..."re-committed".....he had ALREADY committed to MU and the previous head coach.  It seems some (not you Pakuni) believe that we ignore some of these signings which is utterly ridiculous.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

2002mualum----I'm not qualified and did not apply for the job. Cottingham is not qualified and did not apply for the job either. To defend Cottingham or the hire you either have to be Cottingham, a family member or someone involved in hiring the dimwit.

Nope.

I'm none of those things.

I am however a person that can admit that there are people out there who are smarter than I am.

I'm not involved in MU athletics (other than being a fan). There are a lot of things that go on in that department that I don't know about.

Forgive me for having some faith that some smart(er) people are making some decisions.

Also, calling Cottingham a dimwit, even if MU is successful is silly. If MU is successful, Cottingham should get some credit. I don't know why that is so hard to admit for you.

[THEGYMBAR]

Calling Cottingham a dimwit is an understatement. He was not qualified nor prepared to conduct the search. Buzz being successful will all be Buzz's doing. Give credit where credit is due.