Hydroxychloroquinine updates (and other potential treatments)

[pacearrow02]

I think most reasonable people are right here with you.

What some were less keen about was an ignorant reality TV host screaming at press briefings mini-campaign rallies: "Go get this! What do you have to lose?"

I hate the bombastic rhetoric as well and I’m generally a supporter of the president but agree those press briefings did more harm then good half the time for him.

But almost 4 years into his presidency he’s obviously not going to change his messaging or how it’s delivered.  I try to ignore the day to day chaos with the media and focus on his actions/policies more then the constant carnival barking, which can be difficult at times for sure.

[MU82]

I hate the bombastic rhetoric as well and I’m generally a supporter of the president but agree those press briefings did more harm then good half the time for him.

But almost 4 years into his presidency he’s obviously not going to change his messaging or how it’s delivered.  I try to ignore the day to day chaos with the media and focus on his actions/policies more then the constant carnival barking, which can be difficult at times for sure.

Fair enough. We obviously disagree on the quality of his actions/policies, but neither of us has to discuss that here.

Many of those in his inner circle and his party are trying to get him to do fewer (or no) briefings, and for obvious reasons. His approval rating keeps sinking, and those have contributed to the decline.

[GooooMarquette]

Just a comment on remdesovir: I truly hope this drug turns out to be effective.

That said, I do NOT think FDA should rush to approve the Emergency Use Authorization before fully completed Phase III trials ultimately demonstrate the safety and and efficacy of the drug.

Why? Once the EUA is issued, any physician can give the drug for severe covid cases, so no patient is going to agree to participate in a randomized, placebo-controlled study. And once that happens, we will once again be in a position of working without complete data.

We should enroll patients in these trials as quickly as possible - and given current infection rates, that should not be a problem...as long as the EUA is not issued prematurely.

[Warriors4ever]

https://wbbm780.radio.com/articles/uptown-hospital-sees-success-in-covid-19-plasma-treatment

Weiss Hospital has a positive outcome from plasma treatment. Hopeful.

[muwarrior69]

The jury is not out. There are just a few posters determined to show that quack suggestions have merit.

So the Chinese and French clinicians are quacks?

[forgetful]

So the Chinese and French clinicians are quacks?

The French doctor pushing this was barred from publishing in some major journals for fraudulent research, and in this study he removed patients that didn't fit his model, he manipulated data, refused to share raw data, and many other issues.

https://forbetterscience.com/2020/03/26/chloroquine-genius-didier-raoult-to-save-the-world-from-covid-19/

The Chinese study was very preliminary. It warranted followup, properly done followups show no benefit.

The head of the French study also believes such things as, there is no such thing as drinking too much alcohol.

"In biology, the concept of threshold does not exist. This means that there is no amount of alcohol from which it becomes dangerous to drink it."

He doesn't believe in widespread vaccination in developed nations.

He believes sunscreen shouldn't be used by the average person, and that more sun is actually good to avoid serious skin cancers.

That there should be no concern about "antibiotic resistant bacteria" because we have antibiotics that kill all bacteria (we do not).

And, related to this, he thinks antibiotics should be prescribed for any flu (caused by a virus) that persists for more than 3 days (so all flus).

[Jockey]

So the Chinese and French clinicians are quacks?

I’m not going to argue about the drug any more. The only people defending it here are the trump/ Fox News people. Your only goal is to fawn over what they say.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

The French doctor pushing this was barred from publishing in some major journals for fraudulent research, and in this study he removed patients that didn't fit his model, he manipulated data, refused to share raw data, and many other issues.

https://forbetterscience.com/2020/03/26/chloroquine-genius-didier-raoult-to-save-the-world-from-covid-19/

And let's not forget that it was this flawed French study that was the source of Oz trotting out on Fox and extolling it as another one of his miracle cures. And because he was on Fox news, and because Oz had been "nice to him" (very important in Trump world), Trump latched on to this like a drowning man.

And as soon as Trump started promoting it, Fox News had to jump on board and endlessly proclaim it as the game-changing miracle cure. And when doctors and scientists said, "hey, hold on, shouldn't we actually test this to see if it, you know, actually works?", Fox turned it into the latest partisan wedge issue by saying those "elites" and "intellectuals"--things their viewers have been taught are bad--were trying to bring down the President.

So by all means there should be continued Phase III trials so long as the evidence supports it, but in the meantime I am going to discount trials from anti-evidence anti-vaxxers who make their members vow not to serve Medicare and Medicare patients and believe guns result in fewer deaths.

[MU82]

And speaking of quacks ...

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article242210931.html?

The board chairman of Gaston County’s largest health care system has shared political coronavirus posts on social media including one calling stay-at-home orders “tyranny” and another speculating whether the pandemic was caused by “a secret Chinese bio-warfare weapon.”

The posts from Donnie Loftis, chairman of CaroMont Health’s board and former Gaston County commissioners chairman, came after Gaston — and many others in the state — adopted local restrictions on businesses and public activity. Gov. Roy Cooper issued a statewide stay-at-home order on March 27 that is scheduled to last through May 8, and North Carolina has closed all public schools through the end of the school year.

 This story is a subscriber exclusive
CaroMont Health restricted visitors to its facilities, and urged the public to stay home and practice social distancing efforts. In a statement on the hospital’s website on April 15, officials said PPE for health care workers was in short supply — “That’s why it is absolutely imperative people who can stay home, stay home.”

Three days later, Loftis shared on his Facebook page a picture that reads: “Quarantine is when you restrict the movement of sick people. Tyranny is when you restrict the movement of healthy people.”

Yep, you gotta love it when the folks in charge of "science" go off the rails.

[Hards Alumni]

And speaking of quacks ...

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article242210931.html?

The board chairman of Gaston County’s largest health care system has shared political coronavirus posts on social media including one calling stay-at-home orders “tyranny” and another speculating whether the pandemic was caused by “a secret Chinese bio-warfare weapon.”

The posts from Donnie Loftis, chairman of CaroMont Health’s board and former Gaston County commissioners chairman, came after Gaston — and many others in the state — adopted local restrictions on businesses and public activity. Gov. Roy Cooper issued a statewide stay-at-home order on March 27 that is scheduled to last through May 8, and North Carolina has closed all public schools through the end of the school year.

 This story is a subscriber exclusive
CaroMont Health restricted visitors to its facilities, and urged the public to stay home and practice social distancing efforts. In a statement on the hospital’s website on April 15, officials said PPE for health care workers was in short supply — “That’s why it is absolutely imperative people who can stay home, stay home.”

Three days later, Loftis shared on his Facebook page a picture that reads: “Quarantine is when you restrict the movement of sick people. Tyranny is when you restrict the movement of healthy people.”

Yep, you gotta love it when the folks in charge of "science" go off the rails.

The idea behind bioweapons is the same as all weapons, you don't want them to go off in your face.  You want to be able to control what happens.  A highly contagious virus would be a terrible bioweapon.

[GooooMarquette]

A pretty grim view in today's NYTimes about how long it really takes to produce a totally new vaccine.

How Long Will a Vaccine Really Take?

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/30/opinion/coronavirus-covid-vaccine.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage&action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

Some interesting numbers: The varicella (chickenpox) and FluMist vaccines took 28 years to produce; the HPV and rotavirus vaccines took 15. The article describes the usual timelines and what it might take to shorten them. It also allows you to click buttons to see how certain "shortcuts" would accelerate the process.

I would love to see something in the next year or two, but this demonstrates the kind of odds we are up against....

[pacearrow02]

A pretty grim view in today's NYTimes about how long it really takes to produce a totally new vaccine.

How Long Will a Vaccine Really Take?

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/30/opinion/coronavirus-covid-vaccine.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage&action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

Some interesting numbers: The varicella (chickenpox) and FluMist vaccines took 28 years to produce; the HPV and rotavirus vaccines took 15. The article describes the usual timelines and what it might take to shorten them. It also allows you to click buttons to see how certain "shortcuts" would accelerate the process.

I would love to see something in the next year or two, but this demonstrates the kind of odds we are up against....

Fauci said today there should be one available with millions of doses by the end of the year. 

[GooooMarquette]

Fauci said today there should be one available with millions of doses by the end of the year.

He actually said he believes it’s “in the realm of possibility” that they might be available “if things fall in the right place.” Plenty of hedging there.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/495412-fauci-hundreds-of-millions-of-coronavirus-vaccine-doses-may-be-ready-by

Color me skeptical...

[forgetful]

I will believe it when I see it, but given who is boss is, I am skeptical. Boss man said we would have plenty of tests available by now, and we’re still waiting....

I think we will get one by then. Simply because they have to. It might not be that effective, but as long as it is safe and offers some protection, they are going to put one out there.

[pacearrow02]

I will believe it when I see it, but given who is boss is, I am skeptical. Boss man said we would have plenty of tests available by now, and we’re still waiting....

Haha, ok.  You want to place a wager on the over under of a vaccine being available by 12/31/20?

[GooooMarquette]

Haha, ok.  You want to place a wager on the over under of a vaccine being available by 12/31/20?

Read my edited response above. You didn’t even represent his comments correctly.

[pacearrow02]

Read my edited response above. You didn’t even represent his comments correctly.

So how bout a wager?

[JWags85]

Read my edited response above. You didn’t even represent his comments correctly.

He didn’t use the “realm of possibility” comment, that was Savannah Guthrie. He said it’s doable. And I don’t think the caveat about the right things falling into place is a hedge, as much as he’s not one to talk in absolutes when many things are in flux. I think that’s a very encouraging stance from him

[GooooMarquette]

So how bout a wager?

Lol. I don’t bet with people who can’t understand the difference between “should” and “in the realm of possibility.”

Too sloppy.

[GooooMarquette]

He didn’t use the “realm of possibility” comment, that was Savannah Guthrie. He said it’s doable. And I don’t think the caveat about the right things falling into place is a hedge, as much as he’s not one to talk in absolutes when many things are in flux. I think that’s a very encouraging stance from him

Correct. He said “I do” when she asked if it was in the realm of possibility.”

And that’s very different from “should.”

Look, I would be as happy as anyone to get an effective vaccine because I am as susceptible as any of you. I just don’t see it happening. I hope I am wrong.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

So how bout a wager?

Betting on a rona vaccine is a bit...much, aina?

[Lennys Tap]

Betting on a rona vaccine is a bit...much, aina?

It is awful, Ziggy - but not as bad as the guys who wanted to bet the “over” on total deaths estimated by August on the U of Washington website.

[GooooMarquette]

It is awful, Ziggy - but not as bad as the guys who wanted to bet the “over” on total deaths estimated by August on the U of Washington website.

Agreed.

I hope any discussion of ‘betting’ isn’t literal, because I truly hope we all want the same endpoints (fewer deaths, less suffering, and less overall damage to the economy).

If I ever say ‘I bet this’ or ‘I bet that’ on a grave subject like this, it would really mean ‘I think this’ or ‘I fear that‘...not that I’m willing to wager money on it.

[Jockey]

It is awful, Ziggy - but not as bad as the guys who wanted to bet the “over” on total deaths estimated by August on the U of Washington website.

Were there odds on the site or a place to make a wager?

Or were they using the informal version of bet, meaning that they "think" it is true?

[Lennys Tap]

Were there odds on the site or a place to make a wager?

Or were they using the informal version of bet, meaning that they "think" it is true?

I don’t have the energy to try and find it. My recollection is that estimates on the U Wash model were maybe 67,000 by August and the numbers were approaching 60,000. One poster for sure (maybe more) opined they’d like to go to Vegas and take the over. Ghoulish.

Edit: I’m old, not proficient on copy/pasting. Page 188 of the covid thread:

MU 82 reports that the IHME is projecting 74,073 covid deaths by July 15.

pbiflyer responds: If Vegas reopens I’m taking the over on those numbers. We’ll be at 67000 in less than a week and over 74000 by mid May....

GOOO Marquette: Yep. Wonder if the casino will take bets on that.