If we must...

[ATWizJr]

nope. Its not self defense when you start stalking people while armed with a firearm. If I'm being stalked by someone with a gun, I think I'm the one that has a right to self defense - not him.

If I know someone is following me w/ a weapon, I am comfortable with the idea that I should be able to shoot them in self defense, arent you? If so, you have a major philosophical issue here. You can't have a shootout where both people are legal and legitimate in their use of deadly force as self defense.

  I guess we'll see what the actual evidence shows. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Maybe I've missed it, but has there ever been any report that Zimmerman tried to apprehend Martin?  Not being sarcastic -- honest question.

I don't know that, and you're right, I don' think we can assume that.


Moving on to a more general question (i.e., not intended to specifically relate to Zimmerman/Martin):  twice in this thread you've indicated that it would be OK for a private citizen to call the cops and try to keep an eye on someone:


So, given the fact that you seem to think that it would be OK for a private citizen to call the cops and try to follow and keep an eye on a person, why do you think that a person doing exactly that should not be able to defend himself if the person he is trying to observe places him in fear for his life?

I'm asking a general question that, admittedly, is coming in a thread about a very specific situation.  I'll take no opinion on whether or not my question applies to the Zimmerman/Martin case.  I was just curious how you moved from saying that it was OK to call the cops and try to follow and keep an eye on someone, to later say that you're not comfortable if that person defends himself.

Fair points. For me it comes down to the use of a firearm by a untrained private citizen who inserted himself into a situation.

#1 Neighborhood watch? Great idea. Go in pairs, wear neon clothing, flashlights, etc. Make sure everybody sees you and knows what you are doing.

#2 Observe and Report from a distance. Good idea. Keep a safe distance. Don't engage. Don't put yourself in harms way. Stay in your car, or your home if you see something suspicious. Call your neighbors and have then watch as well.

#3 Get gun and secretly follow people around your neighborhood? I just don't like it. Too many things can go wrong. What if the bullet missed and hit a bystander? Is that still covered under self defense?

[ATWizJr]

Fair points. For me it comes down to the use of a firearm by a untrained private citizen who inserted himself into a situation.

#1 Neighborhood watch? Great idea. Go in pairs, wear neon clothing, flashlights, etc. Make sure everybody sees you and knows what you are doing.

#2 Observe and Report from a distance. Good idea. Keep a safe distance. Don't engage. Don't put yourself in harms way. Stay in your car, or your home if you see something suspicious. Call your neighbors and have then watch as well.

#3 Get gun and secretly follow people around your neighborhood? I just don't like it. Too many things can go wrong. What if the bullet missed and hit a bystander? Is that still covered under self defense?

  Is there are any responsibility on Martin in your opinion?

[reinko]

  Is there are any responsibility on Martin in your opinion?

Better question, what responsibility do you think falls on Martin in this case?

[ATWizJr]

Better question, what responsibility do you think falls on Martin in this case?

  Impossible to know until all the facts are made public.  Clearly, he may bear responsibility.

[Henry Sugar]

Impossible to know until all the facts are made public.  Clearly, he may bear responsibility.

chicken

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

  Is there are any responsibility on Martin in your opinion?

Well, we don't know exactly what happened, so it's speculative:

- If he did "attack" Zimmerman, then certainly he holds some responsibility for a physical altercation. If he were alive, the authorities could determine who started it, how it started, and what it was about. It might be Martin's fault, unfortunately he's not here to answer the question.

Ultimately, it's hard for me to justify deadly force used by a private citizen following an unarmed teenager at 7pm at night.

I know not everybody will agree with me on that, and that's fine.

[ATWizJr]

Well, we don't know exactly what happened, so it's speculative:

- If he did "attack" Zimmerman, then certainly he holds some responsibility for a physical altercation. If he were alive, the authorities could determine who started it, how it started, and what it was about. It might be Martin's fault, unfortunately he's not here to answer the question.

Ultimately, it's hard for me to justify deadly force used by a private citizen following an unarmed teenager at 7pm at night.

I know not everybody will agree with me on that, and that's fine.

unarmed is a subjective term.  at my age any 17 year old male is bigger, stronger and poses a significant threat.  if jumped I would certainly do everything in my power to defend myself.  especially if I had been knocked down, had my nose broken and was being wailed on.  so would you.  your problem seems to be less with a person defending themselves and more with possessing a firearm.

[Stringer Bellenson]

The main thing here that seems to be going unmentioned, is that the NRA writes crappy laws.  Maybe Zimmerman will be justified when all is said and done.  Maybe he could prove self-defense in any of the other 48 or so states that have longstanding self-defense laws based on the facts in this particular case.  However, this is a backward and terrible law and will lead to more avoidable nonsense like this.  In almost any other state, Zimmerman would be sitting in jail right now awaiting trial and his lawyers would be working on proving that he had a legitimate reason to kill this kid, then he should be set free if the facts indicate he acted in self-defense; that's how it should work.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  Under this law "stand your ground" law, it can be difficult to determine which party is standing their ground.

Am I the only one that could see this Zimmerman guy taking karate classes with a bunch of little kids and dressing up like spiderman in his mom's basement practicing his kicks?  If you're going to be a 28 year old adult in the business of making citizens arrests, I would hope you would either know how to fight or choose your battles more wisely. This goofball was walking around like Billy the Kid, and caught a beating by a kid 11 years younger.  (Yeah, I've seen the pictures of the kid, he may be 6'2'' and act hard on facebook, but I've also seen the pictures of Zimmerman, a fat creep, who also likes to act hard, and clearly outweighs Martin.)  Kids who looks like Martin walk by my place every day and it really doesn't bother me.  You know what would bother me?  A guy who looks like Zimmerman following me around like a pedophile.

[ATWizJr]

The main thing here that seems to be going unmentioned, is that the NRA writes crappy laws.  Maybe Zimmerman will be justified when all is said and done.  Maybe he could prove self-defense in any of the other 48 or so states that have longstanding self-defense laws based on the facts in this particular case.  However, this is a backward and terrible law and will lead to more avoidable nonsense like this.  In almost any other state, Zimmerman would be sitting in jail right now awaiting trial and his lawyers would be working on proving that he had a legitimate reason to kill this kid, then he should be set free if the facts indicate he acted in self-defense; that's how it should work.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  Under this law "stand your ground" law, it can be difficult to determine which party is standing their ground.

Am I the only one that could see this Zimmerman guy taking karate classes with a bunch of little kids and dressing up like spiderman in his mom's basement practicing his kicks?  If you're going to be a 28 year old adult in the business of making citizens arrests, I would hope you would either know how to fight or choose your battles more wisely. This goofball was walking around like Billy the Kid, and caught a beating by a kid 11 years younger.  (Yeah, I've seen the pictures of the kid, he may be 6'2'' and act hard on facebook, but I've also seen the pictures of Zimmerman, a fat creep, who also likes to act hard, and clearly outweighs Martin.)  Kids who looks like Martin walk by my place every day and it really doesn't bother me.  You know what would bother me?  A guy who looks like Zimmerman following me around like a pedophile.
 

You're prepubescent?

[GGGG]

unarmed is a subjective term.  at my age any 17 year old male is bigger, stronger and poses a significant threat.  if jumped I would certainly do everything in my power to defend myself.  especially if I had been knocked down, had my nose broken and was being wailed on.  so would you.  your problem seems to be less with a person defending themselves and more with possessing a firearm.

I don't have a problem with firearms in the least, but I do think that when the Police tell you to stop following someone, and that you still follow that person, that the burden falls on you should that person attack you.  You have been warned to stay away from a potentially dangerous situation...and you chose not to.

If Martin would have jumped Zimmerman when he was just walking down the street minding his own business, I would feel differently - but even then I have a problem with a deadly force response.  

[ATWizJr]

I don't have a problem with firearms in the least, but I do think that when the Police tell you to stop following someone, and that you still follow that person, that the burden falls on you should that person attack you.  You have been warned to stay away from a potentially dangerous situation...and you chose not to.

If Martin would have jumped Zimmerman when he was just walking down the street minding his own business, I would feel differently - but even then I have a problem with a deadly force response.  

  Following a person is not a crime and does not justify an attack whether you are warned or not.  I agree it could be dangerous, however but only if the person you are following has malicious intent.  Are you saying Martin had such intent?  If so, that would tend to justify Zimmerman's concerns about him being in the neighborhood and would make it a good idea to watch him.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

unarmed is a subjective term.  at my age any 17 year old male is bigger, stronger and poses a significant threat.  if jumped I would certainly do everything in my power to defend myself.  especially if I had been knocked down, had my nose broken and was being wailed on.  so would you.  your problem seems to be less with a person defending themselves and more with possessing a firearm.

Yes, the firearm and use the deadly force the issue for me.

I own a 1911. I love shooting it a the range. I own several rifles and shotguns as well (most inherited). I'm not against firearms, or even hand guns specifically.

I'm against private, untrained citizens following/stalking other citizens and discharging said firearm and calling it self defense.

Police are trained to use the appropriate amount of force. There are protocols. They often patrol in pairs, they are in uniform, they have clearly marked squad cars, etc. Everybody knows who they are, and knows what they are doing.  

Zimmerman was not a cop, and I have trouble taking his word that using his gun was his only option.

[Stringer Bellenson]

You're prepubescent?

Sorry, just don't like strange dudes with cheesy mustaches following me around.  Not when I was prepubescent, not when I was 17, not now.

[ATWizJr]

Yes, the firearm and use the deadly force the issue for me.

I own a 1911. I love shooting it a the range. I own several rifles and shotguns as well (most inherited). I'm not against firearms, or even hand guns specifically.

I'm against private, untrained citizens following/stalking other citizens and discharging said firearm and calling it self defense.

Police are trained to use the appropriate amount of force. There are protocols. They often patrol in pairs, they are in uniform, they have clearly marked squad cars, etc. Everybody knows who they are, and knows what they are doing.  

Zimmerman was not a cop, and I have trouble taking his word that using his gun was his only option.

No one wants poorly trained folks carrying any more than they want 8 year olds driving 4,000 lb. vehicles.  Point is, you don't know about his level of training and you certainly don't know whether or not it was self defense.

[MUBurrow]

  Following a person is not a crime and does not justify an attack whether you are warned or not.  I agree it could be dangerous, however but only if the person you are following has malicious intent.  Are you saying Martin had such intent?  If so, that would tend to justify Zimmerman's concerns about him being in the neighborhood and would make it a good idea to watch him.

Why is having person A following person B while packing heat only dangerous if person B has malicious intent? He's not the one chasing people around with guns. It seems person A's intent is already far more malicious than person B's.

[GGGG]

 Following a person is not a crime and does not justify an attack whether you are warned or not.  I agree it could be dangerous, however but only if the person you are following has malicious intent.  Are you saying Martin had such intent?  If so, that would tend to justify Zimmerman's concerns about him being in the neighborhood and would make it a good idea to watch him.

I never said following someone "is a crime."  I said that when Police warn you to stay out of a *potentially* dangerous situation, and you choose to enter that situation, the burden of responsibility for what occurs during that situation switches more toward you.  

And it very well may be what Zimmerman did was justified, again not all of the details are out.  I am just saying that it sounds like Zimmerman needs to address a few things...why did he ignore the police?  Why did he respond at a level of violence higher than what Martin was engaged in?  And if he cannot adequately address these, he deserved punishment because a life was lost.

[ATWizJr]

I never said following someone "is a crime."  I said that when Police warn you to stay out of a *potentially* dangerous situation, and you choose to enter that situation, the burden of responsibility for what occurs during that situation switches more toward you.  

And it very well may be what Zimmerman did was justified, again not all of the details are out.  I am just saying that it sounds like Zimmerman needs to address a few things...why did he ignore the police?  Why did he respond at a level of violence higher than what Martin was engaged in?  And if he cannot adequately address these, he deserved punishment because a life was lost.

  Oh, the responsibility switches "more" to him.  Why did he respond at a level of violence higher than what Martin was engaged in?  He probably felt as thought Martin was engaged in a level of violence that was life threatening and he responded in kind.   

[reinko]

  Oh, the responsibility switches "more" to him.  Why did he respond at a level of violence higher than what Martin was engaged in?  He probably felt as thought Martin was engaged in a level of violence that was life threatening and he responded in kind.   

Impossible to know until all the facts are made public.

[GGGG]

  Oh, the responsibility switches "more" to him.  Why did he respond at a level of violence higher than what Martin was engaged in?  He probably felt as thought Martin was engaged in a level of violence that was life threatening and he responded in kind.   

Possibly...that is why I said it may have been justified.

[ATWizJr]

Why is having person A following person B while packing heat only dangerous if person B has malicious intent? He's not the one chasing people around with guns. It seems person A's intent is already far more malicious than person B's.

 Point is, that when following a person can become a dangerous situation to the follower if the followee has malicious intent.  Following, in and of itself, is not a crime and does not justify an attack.  And no one has said that anyone was chasing someone with a gun.  Chasing implies that zimmerman was running after martin waving a gun around.  these facts do not currently exist in evidence.

[wyzgy]

For a dude who claims he isn't racist, you are trying real hard not to prove it.

if i knew how to add reinko's quote, i would, but his is taken into account here along with southie's

what the he** is the matter with you guys.  you both are just dying to find something racist here.  talk about trolling. medication check?   do your prisms see anything but race in everything??  if you would have read my earlier comments, i am a content of ones character guy-period.  i see white dudes walking around with hoodies and tatted all up and they look like fools to me, however, they might be great people.  same goes for blacks, asian, martian, indonesian, what ever the f they are.  you guys are the problem with our society-you can't even discuss this schmit without race and then you get the beat down.  giving reinko a little benefit of the doubt, he sounds confused and just wants verification- just to be clear reinko, no, i'm not talking about just blacks.  i'm talking about people who make bad decisions

[tower912]

What if the followed felt threatened, chose to stand his ground against the follower by turning and confronting the follower, who in turn felt threatened because his underlying assumptions were buttressed, and chose to shoot the followed?    

[GGGG]

if i knew how to add reinko's quote, i would, but his is taken into account here along with southie's

what the he** is the matter with you guys.  you both are just dying to find something racist here.  talk about trolling.

This is what you said:

"i get it though; in their element, that is what is in and if they don't get with the "program" they get chastised for being "white"  or acting white. or being in a different gang...  like studying hard, working hard, getting good grades.  it ruins it for the rest of them. "

And you think *I* am the one that sees race in everything?  I want you to find one post where I brought up race.  Just one.

[Lennys Tap]

I mostly agree with 2002 here - armed private citizens cruising the streets (well meaning or not) are an accident waiting to happen. This tragedy is proof of that. And no matter how this plays out people will feel that justice has not been served - and they'll have a point.

That said, I'm troubled by more than the horrible personal tragedy here. Not by hustlers like Al Sharpton leading rallies and encouraging the kind of rush to judgement he favors with an African American victim but rails against when an African American stands accused. Not by the simplistic musings of Geraldo Rivera, essentially blaming Trayvon because of his choice of clothing. That kind of stuff is noise and old news. The big "back story" here is NBC news splicing tapes to intentionally misconstrue what happened that night. That's downright chilling to me, and I assume to all regardless of political stripe. Their attempt to excuse it as an "accident" is especially cynical. I don't consider myself naive, and am well aware that opinion often creeps into "hard news" on the left and right, but this is beyond the pale.