Buzz and MU's "Ceiling"

[Benny B]

Thanks for the clarification.  In my opinion, if you aren't trying to ease someone out, you don't make disparaging remarks to the local press.  You don't make it more difficult academically to recruit to MU than what other high major universities adhere to.  You don't put your freshman players in normal dorms where other freshman live - why?  Because other schools have posh, luxury "dorm rooms," way beyond what even Humphrey Hall offers.  Why make it less attractive to a potential recruit to attend MU, with regard to their living accommodations?  Just doesn't make a lot of sense to me...and I'd think to many.  No?

I don't believe that MU needs to put basketball players at the same level of services/amenities as the average, tuition-paying student, but I also don't think you need to sell-out the integrity of an institution to make a bunch of 18 year-old prima donnas happy.  What MU is doing (and was doing) doesn't touch either of the extremes, and frankly, if the only thing that is going to attract a particular recruit to campus is a posh dorm room, then that's not a player MU needs on the team.

Maybe... just maybe, if MU had the best MBB dorms, the easiest classes, and the lowest GPA standards, Trevor Mbakwe would still be here today.  If you're not going to have any standards, don't expect your recruits to either.

[Pakuni]

Ners

Buzz and MU can mutually decide to part ways and Buzz not be fired. From what I have heard several times that mutually parting of ways happened in the spring. MU has a year to put together a list of replacements and Buzz has a year to make a positive move, not a SMU type move. I believe MU avoided a PR nightmare by working out a deal with Buzz. Again, everything I have heard simply comes down to Buzz not being Fr. P's kind of guy. Like it or not but there are times when bosses do not like employees. It might just come down to them not thinking Buzz does it the right way....who knows.

Ummm .... hmmm.
How do you reconcile this with the fact that Buzz literally is traveling across the country (New Mexico, Florida, Tennessee) to recruit for a school for which he, practically speaking, no longer works, and to build a team he'll never coach. Buzz seems to be working pretty hard to recruit players for someone else, don't you think?

I suspect your source on this might be the same person who told you MU administration was eager to downsize the basketball program.

[NersEllenson]

You can either view these as ways to push Buzz out...or you could view them as changes they felt they had to make.  And if Buzz does leave, the new coach would have to live with them as well.

Now we could argue whether or not these changes make sense.  But I don't think they implemented them simply to push Buzz out the door.

I can agree with what you've written here - the changes, quotes to the Journal Sentinel, just don't seem to make a whole lot of sense with regard to trying to retain a coach who has done a hell of a job for the Athletic Department (and University's), most vital, visible and profitable tool.  It is naive to think that the changes that were made would have ANY impact or ability to curtail some of the off the court incidents.

As another coach said, one danger of being a college coach is that your livelihood, to an extent, depends on the decision-making of 18-22 year old men - many of whom come from very difficult backgrounds.  Nobody likes off court issues at any program, but it is extremely, extremely, optimistic to think that some policy changes can eliminate occasional behavior problems that can plague ALL 18-22 year old men, included the general student body with a much greater incidence.

[Goose]

Pakuni

If Buzz leaves the program is downsized overnight. Do you really think a recruiter ever stops recruiting? Most of these kids go because of coach and style of play. I woud think it would be quite difficult for even Buzz to make job change if he laid down and stopped recruiting. I would assume Buzz is selling himself to recruits and not the joys to be had at the Annex.

You can believe whatever you want and I respect that. Who knows you might be right. Seems like everybody is getting along swell these days.

[GGGG]

Pakuni

If Buzz leaves the program is downsized overnight.

Whoa...where did you get that idea?  I can understand that Buzz and LP don't really get along, but where did you get the impression that it would be downsized?

[NersEllenson]

Ummm .... hmmm.
How do you reconcile this with the fact that Buzz literally is traveling across the country (New Mexico, Florida, Tennessee) to recruit for a school for which he, practically speaking, no longer works, and to build a team he'll never coach. Buzz seems to be working pretty hard to recruit players for someone else, don't you think?

I suspect your source on this might be the same person who told you MU administration was eager to downsize the basketball program.

I tend to agree with what you've written, yet as we saw when Crean left, and many coaches leave, players are let out of their NLI and are free to go wherever they might like.  Players largely choose a school due to the coach - not at all conceivable Buzz could leave and ALL of the recruits leave with him...which would be the ultimate blow to Pilarz, Larry Williams, and effectively make it extremely difficult for the new coach to not face a major drop off and rebuilding job.

[Pakuni]

Pakuni

If Buzz leaves the program is downsized overnight. Do you really think a recruiter ever stops recruiting? Most of these kids go because of coach and style of play. I woud think it would be quite difficult for even Buzz to make job change if he laid down and stopped recruiting. I would assume Buzz is selling himself to recruits and not the joys to be had at the Annex.

You can believe whatever you want and I respect that. Who knows you might be right. Seems like everybody is getting along swell these days.

And you may be right. But it just seems that, once again, the reality doesn't jibe with the rumor.

[Pakuni]

I tend to agree with what you've written, yet as we saw when Crean left, and many coaches leave, players are let out of their NLI and are free to go wherever they might like.  Players largely choose a school due to the coach - not at all conceivable Buzz could leave and ALL of the recruits leave with him...which would be the ultimate blow to Pilarz, Larry Williams, and effectively make it extremely difficult for the new coach to not face a major drop off and rebuilding job.

Well, let's assume there is a terrible hatred between Buzz and LW. And let's assume this causes Buzz to leave at season's end, flipping Larry the bird on his way out.
Under that circumstance, where would you place the odds that Marquette releases these recruits from their LOIs without a restriction saying they can't go sign with Buzz's new school?
I'd place the percentage at somewhere in the neighborhood of 0.

[Goose]

Sultan

If we allow one of the top coaches to leave it is definite downgrade overnight. In addition, if any bad bad blood does exist every coach in America will know about it. These guys all talk and their people talk. A possible replacement would definitely have to consider plenty before taking the job if rift caused departure.

Pakuni
What reality are you speaking about? I have never seen or heard talk about losing a coach in October unless there is some reality to it. Do you really think everything is all made up and things are the same as they were last October? I would think that any reasonable person would at least have a certain amount of doubt of Buzz's relationship with his superiors and a concern how that will play out. That's reality from my perspective.

[NersEllenson]

Well, let's assume there is a terrible hatred between Buzz and LW. And let's assume this causes Buzz to leave at season's end, flipping Larry the bird on his way out.
Under that circumstance, where would you place the odds that Marquette releases these recruits from their LOIs without a restriction saying they can't go sign with Buzz's new school?
I'd place the percentage at somewhere in the neighborhood of 0.

You don't see that kind of policy put in place when a coach leaves...only when a player chooses to transfer from a coach he committed to.  The PR Black Eye MU would get if it tried to implement such a policy would be a disaster...and you can't really force a kid to come to a school he's no longer interested in coming to - due to the coach he signed with being gone.

Sure hope it doesn't come to this, but it is a scary thought.  We land our best/2nd best recruiting class in the last 20 years and the coach leaves....not a good thought.  Think the biggest factor for Buzz staying is simply his relationship and fondness for the kids already in the program.

[GGGG]

Sultan

If we allow one of the top coaches to leave it is definite downgrade overnight. In addition, if any bad bad blood does exist every coach in America will know about it. These guys all talk and their people talk. A possible replacement would definitely have to consider plenty before taking the job if rift caused departure.

I interpreted it as not devoting as many resources...I understand your POV.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Nobody likes off court issues at any program, but it is extremely, extremely, optimistic to think that some policy changes can eliminate occasional behavior problems that can plague ALL 18-22 year old men, included the general student body with a much greater incidence.

To be fair to MU, it's not like there was only a single isolated off-the-court event that set the changes in motion.

We know about several issues and/or poor decision making, and there might are several others we don't know about. Hell, some of this might have been set in motion years ago.

I can't imagine that the MU admin. expects Basketball players to be perfect, but players need to be better than they have been.

Like it or not, if you want to play D1 hoops, you're going to have to keep your nose clean (for the most part), and keep a relatively low profile.

[NersEllenson]

To be fair to MU, it's not like there was only a single isolated off-the-court event that set the changes in motion.

We know about several issues and/or poor decision making, and there might are several others we don't know about. Hell, some of this might have been set in motion years ago.

I can't imagine that the MU admin. expects Basketball players to be perfect, but players need to be better than they have been.

Like it or not, if you want to play D1 hoops, you're going to have to keep your nose clean (for the most part), and keep a relatively low profile.

The sex assault allegation obviously are disturbing and alarming - yet they were allegations, neither of which led to charges being filed.  One incident involved a "couple" who had a previous sexual relationship, and were in the middle of having sex, when apparently* the girl changed her mind.  The biggest deal, is that because they were basketball players and high profile, it shone a light on a FAILED, longstanding university policy..and rightfully so..the university should be embarassed by its ridiculous policy on sex assault allegations.  Then again, considering the crap that takes place in the Catholic Church, and its protection of priests with a long history of molesting boys..it shouldn't come as a surprise that we had a flawed sex assault policy.

The whole 720 Club thing is Chicken Littles crap.  The fact that our underage guys weren't even drinking...says volumes about how they conduct themselves.  Seriously.  Someone instigates a fight with DJO..what's he supposed to do - go into the fetal position and let someone slug away, while his teammates stand around and watch??

[Pakuni]

You don't see that kind of policy put in place when a coach leaves...only when a player chooses to transfer from a coach he committed to.  The PR Black Eye MU would get if it tried to implement such a policy would be a disaster...and you can't really force a kid to come to a school he's no longer interested in coming to - due to the coach he signed with being gone.

That's not what I'm suggesting. And, in fact, schools frequently place restrictions on players when releasing them from LOIs. Most don't go as far as Bo Ryan, but it's not uncommon.
I'm suggesting MU would tell these recruits, "We really want you at Marquette and hope you would get to know (New Coach) before making any final decisions. But if you insist on a release, here's a list of 343 Division I programs you can chose from, and one you can't."
That's a far cry from forcing a kid to go to a school he's no longer interest in.
And I'm not even sure this would lead to much bad PR, if any. Buzz would take as much flak for trying to vulture his former employer.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

The sex assault allegation obviously are disturbing and alarming - yet they were allegations, neither of which led to charges being filed.  One incident involved a "couple" who had a previous sexual relationship, and were in the middle of having sex, when apparently* the girl changed her mind.  The biggest deal, is that because they were basketball players and high profile, it shone a light on a FAILED, longstanding university policy..and rightfully so..the university should be embarassed by its ridiculous policy on sex assault allegations.  Then again, considering the crap that takes place in the Catholic Church, and its protection of priests with a long history of molesting boys..it shouldn't come as a surprise that we had a flawed sex assault policy.

The whole 720 Club thing is Chicken Littles crap.  The fact that our underage guys weren't even drinking...says volumes about how they conduct themselves.  Seriously.  Someone instigates a fight with DJO..what's he supposed to do - go into the fetal position and let someone slug away, while his teammates stand around and watch??

What about Vander punching another student?

Listen, I'm not saying the players should burn in hell, but clearly their decision making ability isn't always perfect.

What should DJO do? Ummm, how about realize the team is in the club illegally?, and get the fr*ck out without getting into a confrontation. How about not going to the club at all? How about going, but keeping a low profile?

Again, I don't need the players to be saints, but I think there is room for improvement in their decision making. I think that's fair.

[Pakuni]

Without getting into what the players may or may not have done - because none of us know or ever will - can we at least admit that the administration is making its decisions with the benefit of FAR better information than we possess?
Their decisions may or may not be reasonable, but I would suggest that at a minimum the decisions are informed .... and it's obviously at least a bit misguided to call them rash or overreactions without having full knowledge of what they're reacting to.

[Rubie Q]

The sex assault allegation obviously are disturbing and alarming - yet they were allegations, neither of which led to charges being filed.  One incident involved a "couple" who had a previous sexual relationship, and were in the middle of having sex, when apparently* the girl changed her mind.  The biggest deal, is that because they were basketball players and high profile, it shone a light on a FAILED, longstanding university policy..and rightfully so..the university should be embarassed by its ridiculous policy on sex assault allegations.  Then again, considering the crap that takes place in the Catholic Church, and its protection of priests with a long history of molesting boys..it shouldn't come as a surprise that we had a flawed sex assault policy.

There's also the issue, w/r/t to the first sex assault allegation, of Buzz holding a team meeting the morning after the alleged incident (with one of the players apparently attempting to contact the alleged victim). Stuff like that shouldn't happen; Broeker acknowledged as much when Cottingham was fired "resigned."

[NersEllenson]

What about Vander punching another student?

Listen, I'm not saying the players should burn in hell, but clearly their decision making ability isn't always perfect.

What should DJO do? Ummm, how about realize the team is in the club illegally?, and get the fr*ck out without getting into a confrontation. How about not going to the club at all? How about going, but keeping a low profile?

Again, I don't need the players to be saints, but I think there is room for improvement in their decision making. I think that's fair.

Wow.  Your mindset is concerning, as it reeks of expectant of perfection...and if frightens me that our admin may see things the same way.  Find me a high major college basketball or football team in America that doesn't go to bars or clubs, and I'll give you $1,000.  Seriously.  So don't go to a club as an over 21 year old?  Keep a low profile?  Who says DJO wasn't keeping a low profile?  

How fun to be a college student and all you can do is be about basketball 7am - 10pm 5 days a week from October - March...and never go out and have fun.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Wow.  Your mindset is concerning, as it reeks of expectant of perfection...and if frightens me that our admin may see things the same way.  Find me a high major college basketball or football team in America that doesn't go to bars or clubs, and I'll give you $1,000.  Seriously.  So don't go to a club as an over 21 year old?  Keep a low profile?  Who says DJO wasn't keeping a low profile?  

How fun to be a college student and all you can do is be about basketball 7am - 10pm 5 days a week from October - March...and never go out and have fun.

I think we are getting off track.

I'm only asking them to use better judgement. Not perfection. Just better judgement. My guess is that is what the admin. wants as well. I guess we'll see.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Without getting into what the players may or may not have done - because none of us know or ever will - can we at least admit that the administration is making its decisions with the benefit of FAR better information than we possess?
Their decisions may or may not be reasonable, but I would suggest that at a minimum the decisions are informed .... and it's obviously at least a bit misguided to call them rash or overreactions without having full knowledge of what they're reacting to.

Perfectly stated.

[RJax55]

There's also the issue, w/r/t to the first sex assault allegation, of Buzz holding a team meeting the morning after the alleged incident (with one of the players apparently attempting to contact the alleged victim). Stuff like that shouldn't happen; Broeker acknowledged as much when Cottingham was fired "resigned."

Next to the whole reporting fiasco, this in my mind was the biggest issue with alleged incident. Perhaps, the reason why a strong personality like Larry Williams was brought in and given so much authority.

[Rubie Q]

Next to the whole reporting fiasco, this in my mind was the biggest issue with alleged incident. Perhaps, the reason why a strong personality like Larry Williams was brought in and given so much authority.

At the very least, it's the reason why the athletic director reports directly to Fr. Pilarz now.

[Pakuni]

Pakuni
What reality are you speaking about? I have never seen or heard talk about losing a coach in October unless there is some reality to it. Do you really think everything is all made up and things are the same as they were last October? I would think that any reasonable person would at least have a certain amount of doubt of Buzz's relationship with his superiors and a concern how that will play out. That's reality from my perspective.

Rumor: MU administration is downsizing the program.
Reality: MU administration allows Buzz to make huge financial offer to lure Issac Chew from Illinois; hire a former head coach to run "basketball operations;" makes repeated statements about not downsizing the program

Rumor: Multiple players being shown the door over heightened academics standards
Reality: No players leave for academic reasons

Rumor: Buzz being told he can't recruit JUCOs
Reality: JUCO Jameel McKay commits to MU in June

Rumor: Suspension of Todd Mayo imposed on Buzz by administration
Reality: Buzz and Todd say it was Buzz's call, not related to academics

Rumor: Todd Mayo leaves program, not coming back
Reality: Todd Mayo is back

[RJax55]

At the very least, it's the reason why the athletic director reports directly to Fr. Pilarz now.

Yep. Honestly, the incident couldn't have come at worst time for Buzz. Right during the transition to a new regime. I'm 100% positive this was the last thing Fr. Pilarz wanted to deal with. And when they took a look at what happened, they were mortified by what was found. Changes were inevitable.

[HelixAir6]

Pakuni

If Buzz leaves the program is downsized overnight. Do you really think a recruiter ever stops recruiting? Most of these kids go because of coach and style of play. I woud think it would be quite difficult for even Buzz to make job change if he laid down and stopped recruiting. I would assume Buzz is selling himself to recruits and not the joys to be had at the Annex.

You can believe whatever you want and I respect that. Who knows you might be right. Seems like everybody is getting along swell these days.

Goose, I think Pakuni's point is why would Marquette (whether it is LW, SP, or the board) let Buzz utilize MU's resources (private plane and the expenses that entail) to go out and recruit players to a program that neither MU nor Buzz plan on being a part of...  If I were them and knew that Buzz was on his way out based on this "agreement" you mention, I would not give him the keys to the jet...  I would let him buy his own commercial flights...  I realize a recruiter never stops recruiting, but he can only do so much based on what his bosses allow him to do...

Coming from somebody with no "insiders" or "sources," I agree with Ners and see (perhaps naively) Buzz staying for these recruits and the returning players... If there is one thing that most people agree on with Buzz it's that he will speak his mind/tell the truth.  Once we see a decline in recruiting success and/or hear of indifference from Buzz on the recruiting trail (which probably won't happen), then I will really start to worry (not that you all don't have me worried enough).  I understand he won't ever let up, and he can't, but if at some point he is unable to sustain the recruiting success that he has had over the last 5 years, that, to me, would be a sign that he can't promise those players that he will be at Marquette in the near future and could be on his way out.  

I just don't see Buzz blatantly misleading these recruits under Goose's scenario.  I know coaches leave recruits/returning players every year, but if your rumor is true, this is different because Buzz would already know that he is on his way out, whereas most departures come from a coach being recruited following a job opening during/after the season.  

Again, I may just be naive since I don't have those "insiders" or "sources."  But the 2013 class' twitter feed keeps my hopes up... they all seem pretty pumped to be a part of MU, and it seems Buzz's involvement is a big part of that...