Buzz and MU's "Ceiling"

[dbwarriors]

Buzz Williams- He gone...

[GGGG]

Think you give far too much credit to a "school" making it happen, as opposed to the coach at the school.  Granted, Wild and Cords were all in to support the men's basketball program - however, seems the current regime has a different philosophy.  If they run off the best coach the school has had since Al McGuire, over a few minor off court incidents - the same variety and kind that happen all over the country....this "school" will not make any consistent athletic success happen.

Buzz is not being "run off" for a few minor off court incidents.  In fact, he is not being "run off" at all.

Are you reading imaginary MUScoop again?

[Goose]

I do not think Buzz is being run off for the most part. If he does leave I think it will be a mutual decision based off philosophical issues. Off court stuff did not help anyone but think it comes down what the two parties few as future of the program. Buzz is not going to change his overall plan IMO and if that plan does not mesh with Fr. P's plan the two sides mutually part ways.

[TheTulsaWarrior]

Bilsu has it right, "I think Buzz's ceiling is higher than MU's."  If Buzz can get McKay and Embiid he has a national championship team.  Buzz's ethical standards are extremely high and if the Marquette Administration can't make it work there's a long list of other schools with high standards who would welcome Marquette's second coming of Al McGuire.

[GGGG]

I do not think Buzz is being run off for the most part. If he does leave I think it will be a mutual decision based off philosophical issues. Off court stuff did not help anyone but think it comes down what the two parties few as future of the program. Buzz is not going to change his overall plan IMO and if that plan does not mesh with Fr. P's plan the two sides mutually part ways.

This is correct.  If Buzz were being run off, the policy changes in place would exist only when Buzz is around.  But those changes are likely permanent.  And we could argue all day whether or not such changes are actually that big of a deal or not....

[dgies9156]

At the risk of starting a war on here, it's getting very depressing to see that almost every topic degenerates into "Can we keep Buzz?" We know that 50% or more of us are deeply worried about this given our past history. There's a second segment, probably a minority, that think, "what the heck, who cares!" I'm sure it's especially exacerbated by the fact that TV Tommy has a team (overrated, probably) thought to be among the best in the country.

Reality is this -- coaching is more mobile than it ever was in Al's days. Look at Calipari in Kentucky or Pintino in Loserville. They've been everywhere, or at least it seems like they had. In the 1970s, Wooden and Rupp were coaching at UCLA and Kentucky almost since Dr. Naismith nailed a peach basket on a board. The only big-time place Al ever coached was Marquette (Belmont Abbey doesn't count and we were a major step up).

Look, I had a tough time adjusting to Buzz, but I'm glad I did and I'm delighted he is our coach. If he leaves, OK, he leaves. TV Tommy left and we didn't shrivel up into being UWM. If he stays, I think we have a legit shot at being national champions again. In the meantime, quit worrying about it! As FDR once said, "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself!"

The season is a couple of weeks away and I'm hoping the talk on here turns even more heavily to Ohio State and how good we will be if Chris Otule is everything we saw last year before the injury and Vander/Todd/Junior become the flashy guards we need to run what I hope will be a wonderful offense. Oh, and Davante becomes the second coming of Shaq!

[Benny B]

So do other schools organize the dirty money or should I have take it upon myself to contact Looney and Stone and "see what they need?"

Unless you're syndicating annual commitments in the seven to eight-figure range, it would benefit all of us for you to not be going rogue without at least giving Broeker a call first.  In which case, he'll rightfully ask you to make a legitimate donation instead seeing as how MU can't even close the $1.1M scholarship gap (what the NCAA allows to be awarded in scholarship aid vs. what is actually raised on an annual basis).

[Tugg Speedman]

Unless you're syndicating annual commitments in the seven to eight-figure range, it would benefit all of us for you to not be going rogue without at least giving Broeker a call first.  In which case, he'll rightfully ask you to make a legitimate donation instead seeing as how MU can't even close the $1.1M scholarship gap (what the NCAA allows to be awarded in scholarship aid vs. what is actually raised on an annual basis).

But this thread is about dirty money making the program better.  Now you're back to begging for ethical money which everyone here says does not get us beyond MU's ceiling.

And by the way, no one is syndicating seven or eight figure numbers for MU donations.  That number only exists on Internet message boards.

[Benny B]

But this thread is about dirty money making the program better.  Now you're back to begging for ethical money which everyone here says does not get us beyond MU's ceiling.

And by the way, no one is syndicating seven or eight figure numbers for MU donations.  That number only exists on Internet message boards.

I don't interpret anyone as advocating for dirty money... my point is strictly that dirty money is the only way to break through the ceiling, and MU simply doesn't have the insurance coverage in the event that a thunderstorm starts while there's a hole in the roof.

Personally, I'm perfectly content with what MU has without having to go down the path that the "blue bloods" have.

[Warriors 79]

Many wonderfully imaginative ideas (MSU...Making Sh!t Up) exist on Internet Message Boards.

[brewcity77]

Bilsu has it right, "I think Buzz's ceiling is higher than MU's."  If Buzz can get McKay and Embiid he has a national championship team.  Buzz's ethical standards are extremely high and if the Marquette Administration can't make it work there's a long list of other schools with high standards who would welcome Marquette's second coming of Al McGuire.

I loved that comment, though I feel it is both true and untrue at the same time. I think individually, Buzz's ceiling is higher than Marquette's. But with Buzz here, Marquette's ceiling goes up and matches his level, it just takes longer than it might elsewhere.

If Buzz went to Kentucky (or Duke or UNC or Kansas or UCLA) today, I have every confidence he would be challenging for Final Fours and national titles within 2-3 years of his arrival. As it stands, we are currently looking at the 2013-14 through 2015-16 as our years to potentially break through to that level, which stands to be 6-8 years after his arrival.

If our current strong crop along with Milwaukee's Best can break through to the Final Four or even higher, I fully believe we will see an improvement in the quality of players we get here. I still don't think we will get the top-10 types, but instead of attracting primarily 50-150 players in the rankings, I think we'll see 25-75 ranked players coming in. Instead of getting the occasional top-50, we'll get the occasional top-20. And I fully believe that with Buzz's ability to identify quality players that will use their full eligibility, he could routinely assemble a roster capable of competing at a level on par with Louisville and Florida, where we aren't necessarily a title contender each year, but the Elite Eight is a regularly attainable goal.

If Buzz sticks around and can get to the final weekend and have some success there within the next 3-4 years, I think Marquette can make the jump to being a top-10 program. We will never be one of the true top-5 blue bloods, but we can get to that next tier, provided we have a coach with the drive and loyalty to get us there. I do believe Buzz is one of the few people that could be that guy.

[NersEllenson]

This is correct.  If Buzz were being run off, the policy changes in place would exist only when Buzz is around.  But those changes are likely permanent.  And we could argue all day whether or not such changes are actually that big of a deal or not....

I'm not surprised you don't understand the value of interpersonal relationships and their role in a highly coveted employee's decision making process.  Buzz has tons of options - he doesn't need to remain at Marquette and deal with idiocy above him.  By disparaging your coach in the local newspaper, you aren't exactly laying down the welcome mat. 

[GGGG]

I'm not surprised you don't understand the value of interpersonal relationships and their role in a highly coveted employee's decision making process.

LOL...

Buzz has tons of options - he doesn't need to remain at Marquette and deal with idiocy above him.  By disparaging your coach in the local newspaper, you aren't exactly laying down the welcome mat.  

Not sure what this has to do with your assertion that they are running him off.  I think LW and SP would be thrilled to have Buzz stay, but they have changed some of the operating rules.  And they don't necessarily believe their primary POV is to not "mess with his happy."  (To coin that lame phrase.)

And if that is important enough to him, then he can exercise his options.

[Goose]

Sultan
 
I strongly disagree that Fr.P would be thrilled if Buzz was our coach after this season. From what I have heard of late there is no love loss between the two. Not saying things cannot change but relationship building was not the theme of the off season. LW is the least of the pro Buzz supporters problems IMO.

[TheTulsaWarrior]

You can achieve changes and "not mess with happy" if you approach change with respect and some level of a sense of PR.  That is where the problem is.  There's a strong perception of arrogance from the AD rather than a united message.  Buzz is a deeply religious and ethical man.  He has earned respect.  Marquette's Jesuit tradition reflects the same religious and ethical fundamental principles.  It should work if change is based on humanity and respect.

LW has had lose lips in public and while he is clearly bright his sense of public relations and HR principle gets a failing grade.

[Goose]

Tulsa

LW has had loose lips for months now. Do you really think he is saying his thoughts or thoughts of someone higher up? Most people on here thinks he has sounded arrogant or disrespectful towards Buzz since WV game. If he was talking out of school don't you think his boss would have told him to lower the comments down a bit? LW is talking the corporate line or his boss has no idea what he is saying.

[Benny B]

I wonder how many people would have this mindset that there's some sort of rift (or chasm) between Buzz and LW/Pilarz if the MU Athletic Department had a competent PR specialist, or for that matter, any PR staffers.

Regardless of whether or not it's true, and if so how overblown it may or may not be, the "trouble in paradise" perception is not something that sits well with donors and alumni who are genuinely concerned about the direction in which the university is going (on various levels).  If it's complete BS, it needs to be smoked out.  If the admin wants Buzz gone, they should do it already.  If it's something in between, then someone should speak up and tell the university stakeholders what the heck is going on.  Personally, my thought is that something very minor that didn't need to be resolved occurred, and the outsider-insiders to the program who think it should have been resolved are making it out to be a much bigger deal than it actually is, not to mention are spinning it to whatever tune suits their taste (or gets them the most attention).  I'll be happy to be wrong on this, just so long as we can put the issue to rest -- if that means Buzz is released, so be it.  If that means that MUScoop just got punk'd, spectacular.  If LW and Buzz have to do the jig of conciliation on Wisconsin Ave, I just hope someone stops traffic.

I get the whole idea of "if I respond to it once, I have to respond to it every time," but Buzz needs to go off-course this once, if for no other reason to explain that he shouldn't ever need to be in a position where he has to explain something.

[Lennys Tap]

If everything is really peachy, where did Goodman get the idea that Buzz and LW were at odds? I assume he has sources other than MU Scoop.

[ATL MU Warrior]

If everything is really peachy, where did Goodman get the idea that Buzz and LW were at odds? I assume he has sources other than MU Scoop.

Don't know.  Where did he get the idea that the PG's from Iona, College of Charleston, Loyola Marymount, Indiana State, Belmont, South Dakota State, etc. etc. are better than the PGs from Duke & Florida?

[NersEllenson]

LOL...


Not sure what this has to do with your assertion that they are running him off.  I think LW and SP would be thrilled to have Buzz stay, but they have changed some of the operating rules.  And they don't necessarily believe their primary POV is to not "mess with his happy."  (To coin that lame phrase.)

And if that is important enough to him, then he can exercise his options.

So which operating rules have they changed Sultan?  You seem to be making the point that this is all about policy issues and operating rules - so do you just discount the interpersonal relationship between Buzz and LW/Pilarz?  Does that not matter? 

Pilarz and LW in no way can fire Buzz Williams - if they did - the PR debacle they would face would be off the charts - particularly if the replacement coach gets mediocre results...which would likely be the case.  So what else can Pilarz/LW do??  Basically, they can be dicks and create a hostile work environment...and make disparaging remarks in the local newspaper.

[GGGG]

So which operating rules have they changed Sultan?  You seem to be making the point that this is all about policy issues and operating rules - so do you just discount the interpersonal relationship between Buzz and LW/Pilarz?  Does that not matter? 

Pilarz and LW in no way can fire Buzz Williams - if they did - the PR debacle they would face would be off the charts - particularly if the replacement coach gets mediocre results...which would likely be the case.  So what else can Pilarz/LW do??  Basically, they can be dicks and create a hostile work environment...and make disparaging remarks in the local newspaper.

As stated here, they have changed rules for GPA requirements for continuing players and residence halls where freshmen players live.  There are apparently other items where in the past the administration made exceptions for athletes, but now isn't the case.

But again, on your point regarding interpersonal relationships, Buzz may not get along with LW or SP....but that doesn't mean that they are trying to run him off.

[Pakuni]

If everything is really peachy, where did Goodman get the idea that Buzz and LW were at odds? I assume he has sources other than MU Scoop.

Maybe from the same place he got the idea that the Thunder was trading James Harden to Charlotte before the draft.

Could you point out where anyone has suggested "everything is really peachy?" I think those of us not building fallout shelters have merely suggested that we have no idea what the Buzz-LW relationship is like (unlike those of you with whom Buzz shares his most intimate thoughts), and that perhaps some of the more dire tales of impending doom and gloom might be a tad hyperbolic ... as has proven true in each and every case so far.
Maybe I'm just missing the peachy posts.

[NersEllenson]

As stated here, they have changed rules for GPA requirements for continuing players and residence halls where freshmen players live.  There are apparently other items where in the past the administration made exceptions for athletes, but now isn't the case.

But again, on your point regarding interpersonal relationships, Buzz may not get along with LW or SP....but that doesn't mean that they are trying to run him off.

Thanks for the clarification.  In my opinion, if you aren't trying to ease someone out, you don't make disparaging remarks to the local press.  You don't make it more difficult academically to recruit to MU than what other high major universities adhere to.  You don't put your freshman players in normal dorms where other freshman live - why?  Because other schools have posh, luxury "dorm rooms," way beyond what even Humphrey Hall offers.  Why make it less attractive to a potential recruit to attend MU, with regard to their living accommodations?  Just doesn't make a lot of sense to me...and I'd think to many.  No?

[Goose]

Ners

Buzz and MU can mutually decide to part ways and Buzz not be fired. From what I have heard several times that mutually parting of ways happened in the spring. MU has a year to put together a list of replacements and Buzz has a year to make a positive move, not a SMU type move. I believe MU avoided a PR nightmare by working out a deal with Buzz. Again, everything I have heard simply comes down to Buzz not being Fr. P's kind of guy. Like it or not but there are times when bosses do not like employees. It might just come down to them not thinking Buzz does it the right way....who knows.

[GGGG]

Thanks for the clarification.  In my opinion, if you aren't trying to ease someone out, you don't make disparaging remarks to the local press.  You don't make it more difficult academically to recruit to MU than what other high major universities adhere to.  You don't put your freshman players in normal dorms where other freshman live - why?  Because other schools have posh, luxury "dorm rooms," way beyond what even Humphrey Hall offers.  Why make it less attractive to a potential recruit to attend MU, with regard to their living accommodations?  Just doesn't make a lot of sense to me...and I'd think to many.  No?

You can either view these as ways to push Buzz out...or you could view them as changes they felt they had to make.  And if Buzz does leave, the new coach would have to live with them as well.

Now we could argue whether or not these changes make sense.  But I don't think they implemented them simply to push Buzz out the door.