Crean's coaching level

[only a warrior]

Yes, please.  Crean has taken this program to places I never thought possible after having to stomach Majerus and Dukiet.

Also, enough of the guess who I know in the Athletic Dept that you don't talk.  Jeez, lets cool the name dropping 

[LovinCrowder]

Warriorette...I think there are just a few here that have trouble with him.  Most realize the great job he's doing, the city is going to games like never before, we're getting good student athletes.....a lot of very good things going on right now and in the last 10 years.  It's a great time to be a fan.

And I certainly agree with you Chicos --

I understand that this is a message board and people are free to say what they want; however, if I were TC and read all this negativity and criticism, I would begin to wonder if I wouldn't be appreciated somewhere else.......

[The Lens]

I LOVE that we're now at 6 pages.  Every time I see a new page begin past the standard 2 or 3 pages that most threads have I think of this brilliant Onion article:

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/33930

[muwarrior87]

Chicos --
By the way, does Arizona claim they need to play a certain amount of home games against crappy non-conference opponents to meet their budget?

Concordia University, Northern Arizona, Missouri-Kansas City, Adams State College, Cal State Fullerton...
I'd say yes.

cal state fullerton is good though, they made the tourney.   

[tower912]

Just one guy, and everyone has been using him as a PRNata. (pinata)

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Twice in this thread PRN has been asked by other posters to produce evidence to back up his claims (Assistant coaching salaries & Crean's soccer donation press conference).

Evidence? Are you serious? Is there some burden of proof I need to meet?  Laughable. If I felt like humoring you, I'd dig up "evidence," but for now just be assured that you are wrong and I am right.

C'mon dude.

Respond to me directly.

I didn't ask for evidence, because I don't really have any either... I'm just asking for your realistic interpretation of the situation.

I'm not exactly sure how the whole donation thing plan was concocted, but my educated guess is that MU asked Coach Crean to be apart of the press conference to help promote his own generous donation as well as promote the campaign for more donations to the stadium.

I'm just not sure how you are coming to another conclusion as the one I'm talking about seems VERY, VERY likely.

Re-read my previous post, and just tell me what you think.

I'm not attacking you... I'm trying to give you a chance to offer up your solution. In the end we may not agree... but at least you can provide some actual perspective/insight rather than resorting to "believe what you want".

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I think one of the issues with the soccer thing is that it was sold to us by people in the know on the Scout board as a "Major Annoucement at the Al"...

I think people were thinking major name assistant, new home and home series, etc etc.  It just seemed oversold and mostly by the scout board folks.

2002alum, I appreciate you trying to further the debate, but PRN has no insight or perspective to offer. We all know his position on Crean, as he has stated it over and over again. He has the right to that opinion, but let's stop pretending he holds insightful commentary.

Twice in this thread PRN has been asked by other posters to produce evidence to back up his claims (Assistant coaching salaries & Crean's soccer donation press conference).

What has been his response ... Let's see ... He ignored Pakuni request regarding assistant coaching salaries and fired back with the "You guys are clueless" comment when ask to produce evidence that Crean was the one who called the donation press conference.

I agree, I'm just trying to offer up what I think is a rational explanation, and I'm interested why PRN (and or others) dismiss this explanation with no logical one to take it's place.

Honestly, I'm not trying to start a fight or harsh debate. The best part about this board is the free exchange of ideas and differing perspectives from fans/alumni.

I look forward to PRN's thoughts, and I hope it isn't just calling me clueless or saying that I can believe what I want.

you are interested in his thoughts?  It's like talking to a fundimentalist christian about evolution.  You can pound him on this message board and he'll ignore anything you say that has meaning and just tell you that you are wrong because of things you don't know but he does and you should believe him because he says so.  I assumed he was someone older than me based on his anger about stuff that happened in the 80's but i just have a hard time shaking the idea that some child did a bunch of research and gets mad about it... then again that would imply that prn has done research.

I know what you mean... but like I said, the best part of this board is the free exchange of ideas and thoughts.

Personally, I disagree with PRN 99% of the time, but that doesn't mean that we can't have an exchange of thoughts and theories in a respectful manner.

If PRN claims Crean isn't what he seems (specifically in this situation), then I'm interested in how he has come to this conclusion.

[Coobeys Oil Depot]

If PRN claims Crean isn't what he seems (specifically in this situation), then I'm interested in how he has come to this conclusion.

He just doesn't like Crean and uses any situation to spin it so Crean comes out looking like a) the bad guy, b) a douchebag, or, c) both. Of course, he feels anyone who doesn't agree with him does exactly the same spin except they a) think he walks on water, b) blindly believe everything he says/does, or, c) both.

This will go on for the next 6 months with a little sprinkle of how cool Bruce Pearl is from 4ever. L'chaim!!

[MUSF]

"Personally, I disagree with PRN 99% of the time, but that doesn't mean that we can't have an exchange of thoughts and theories in a respectful manner.

If PRN claims Crean isn't what he seems (specifically in this situation), then I'm interested in how he has come to this conclusion."

I think Crean is really a woman. Are you interested in how I came to that conclusion?

Exchange of thoughts and theories is fine when you are talking about what defense we should have run at the end of the Stanford game or what types of players we should recruit. When you basically call someone dishonest and a shameless self-promoter without providing any evidence other than your suspicious mind, people have the right to call you on it. An opinion is based on facts. When you have no facts to support your opinion, I don't have to respect it. I don't respect the opinions of people that think God punished New Orleans or that man once rode around in T-Rex taxi cabs and I don't respect PRNs opinion on TCs motivations for holding that press conference.

The key to your first sentence is, "in a respectful manner." There is nothing respectful about attacking someone's personality traits and integrity without any substantial evidence to back it up. PRN is a big boy and I'm sure he knows what he is doing. I think we don't need to keep the kid gloves on when he starts going after TC.

[drewm88]

It took me a few days to make my way back here after the loss...and I find this mammoth of a thread. Just in case anybody is still reading this, I'll throw in my thoughts.

Let me start by laying out my situation. I am a student at MU. I have followed the team only since the Deane days and not closely until Crean was here. I do consider myself much more knowledgeable about our history than the average 20 y/o, but obviously I can't judge it like all the older posters can. I consider myself a hardcore dedicated fan, but I have no insider connections to the team, program, athletic dept, etc. I don't sit within earshot of the bench, I don't hang out with the team, and I'm not the mascot like TT. I have no special knowledge.

I usually look forward to posts by PRN and DKCL and sometimes 4ever. They are some of the most prominent posters who hold the minority view on Crean (especially) and other aspects of the program. It's nice to hear from the other side like that. However PRN, I think your latest posts have been pointless because you are being completely dismissive of any alternative ideas without explaining why.

I agree that Crean is not the greatest game coach. The way we have defended big men, the way he has subbed, etc. have left something to be desired. On the other hand, I don't know the whole situation. Maybe his players aren't getting the message in the huddle or practice, maybe they just can't execute when the whistle blows. Maybe the refs of a bad shooting day negate his strategy.

I obviously would like more size on this team. Once again, there might be more issues. I'm sure a year ago he expected we'd get more production from Barro/Blackledge/Burke/Mbakwe/Hazel/Saunders than we ended up getting. We are getting solid recruits. You'd have to be a voter to know, but I'm guessing Taylor and Williams got solid consideration for McD's AA. We were in the final 3 for Shumpert. It seems to me we are rising through the recruiting ranks, and one would have to assume we'll continue that rise. And if I have to choose, I'll take our current front court shortcomings over an injury away from not having a point guard.

I can't judge anything about player development. I think you have to be present at practice to really get a feel for how players are developing and what aspects of that can be attributed to player/assistant/Crean.

I don't see a problem with our assistant situation. Yes it would be nicer if they stuck around, but I have no problem with those guys moving on to bigger and better things. Maybe one day we'll be able to look at a Crean coaching tree like there have been Knight or Izzo trees. (Calm down. I said maybe.)

I love the reputation Crean has given our program. We are known for exciting basketball, graduating our players, no NCAA violations/arrests, and classy players. I think this is HUGE. I would take what we have right now rather than perennial top 10's/sweet 16's and beyond if we had a team like UC did under Huggins. And yes I genuinely mean that. I'd pass up a title right now if it came with a reputation of dirty play, criminal behavior, and laughable academic rates. I believe this program should represent this school, and I believe ours does wonderfully.

Maybe Crean is a self-promoter/full of himself. So what? As stated by others, what top level coach isn't? I don't care if he called the press conference himself to announce his soccer donation. It makes sense because the attention he draws is very valuable for that campaign. Just like the attention he draws to Al's Run. I'm not saying that's all him, but he does not hurt it at all. Also PRN you didn't quite answer Chico's question. What if you knew Crean had no input in the calling of that press conference? Is there anything negative about his actions in that case? I can't see how there could be.

To sum it all up, I am a very big fan of Crean. I love what he has done for our school and program. I love the idea of a long long term coach becoming a staple at Marquette and consistently building our program up. I think he has shown he has the potential to take our program to a championship level. I think he is improving each year. I think his shortcomings pale in comparison to the wonderful things he has done and continues to do.

I disagree that we'd be fine if he left. We are stable enough because we're in the BE and have that reputation, but we could easily be reduced to a USF/St. John's/DePaul level within a couple of years. I don't want to take a chance that we'd snag an ideal coach. I don't even know what coach we would look to as a step up from Crean who would see this place as a destination, not a stepping stone. I am happy to see that nobody is calling for him to leave. If all we have is 3 people saying they wouldn't mind if he left, I think I feel good about this board and our fan base.

[MilTown]

I think some people resent when the media tends to focus more on Crean than the team and university as a whole. Often it appears that we are the Crean Golden Eagles vs the Marquette Golden Eagles. For some reason the media has a fascination with Tom Crean and the Izzo/Harbaugh connections. They love his antics on the sidelines, his practices, his knowledge of the game, and his "legendary" preparation, you name it. Personally, I don't have an issue with Crean being an equal opportunity promoter of himself and our program. If he continues to have success, it shouldn't be an issue.

In the end, it comes down to basketball philosophy. I don't agree with his brand of basketball. It's that simple. Now, that's not to say that he isn't successful. Obviously, Crean's system works as or W/L record shows over the past 8 years, but for me, it's not the kind of basketball I tend to favor. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

In the end, it comes down to basketball philosophy. I don't agree with his brand of basketball. It's that simple. Now, that's not to say that he isn't successful. Obviously, Crean's system works as or W/L record shows over the past 8 years, but for me, it's not the kind of basketball I tend to favor. 

That's a pretty fair statement.

I feel the same way about Bo Ryan. I fully realize he is a very good coach... but his teams just don't do anything for me.

[MilTown]

Yeah, I think some people are taking issue with Crean on a personal level and I think it's very unfair unless you really know him personally. I have met crean once and I don't think that qualifies me to speak about his character. However, the only real beef I have with Crean is that he showed up to the Chicago Tip off luncheon looking like he just stepped out of practice. I'm not saying wear a suit, but at least toss on a collared shirt.

In the end, the positives Crean brings to our program and his accomplishments are something that cannot be overlooked. That goes a long way today where perception is sometimes greater than reality. At this point, I can't think of anyone who is better for our program. Even if he was to leave, our program has a solid foundation for a new coach to come in and continue the success.

[The Lens]

However, the only real beef I have with Crean is that he showed up to the Chicago Tip off luncheon looking like he just stepped out of practice. I'm not saying wear a suit, but at least toss on a collared shirt.

And while he was late for that, at least he made it, he was a no-show at the B&G Outing which caused a little scene.

[Pakuni]

However, the only real beef I have with Crean is that he showed up to the Chicago Tip off luncheon looking like he just stepped out of practice. I'm not saying wear a suit, but at least toss on a collared shirt.

And while he was late for that, at least he made it, he was a no-show at the B&G Outing which caused a little scene.

These last two posts only confirm my long-running suspicion that most of those unhappy with Tom Crean's tenure feel that way because he's failed to properly kiss their rear ends.
By nearly all accounts, Crean has been a fantastic ambassador for MU. I have no personal experiences with the man, but I've read dozens of accounts here about him going well out of his way to make team/university supports feel welcome. If he misses a function now and again because he's doing his real job or dresses like a - gasp! - basketball coach on occasion, big freakin' deal.

By the way, have we set the record for longest MU Scoop thread yet?

[ChicosBailBonds]

However, the only real beef I have with Crean is that he showed up to the Chicago Tip off luncheon looking like he just stepped out of practice. I'm not saying wear a suit, but at least toss on a collared shirt.

And while he was late for that, at least he made it, he was a no-show at the B&G Outing which caused a little scene.

These last two posts only confirm my long-running suspicion that most of those unhappy with Tom Crean's tenure feel that way because he's failed to properly kiss their rear ends.
By nearly all accounts, Crean has been a fantastic ambassador for MU. I have no personal experiences with the man, but I've read dozens of accounts here about him going well out of his way to make team/university supports feel welcome. If he misses a function now and again because he's doing his real job or dresses like a - gasp! - basketball coach on occasion, big freakin' deal.

By the way, have we set the record for longest MU Scoop thread yet?

Ding ding ding ding.  Or didn't have a beer with them at Turners after the game like Mike Deane did.

Part of it is a "Milwaukee thing" where they expect their coaches to be in the Doug Moe, Mike Deane...one of the guys mold.  Crean is a bit more polished then what some of Milwaukeans are used to so they call it "fake", but he's no different then many coaches in bigger cities who are used to having to deal with all the nonsense.

The group from previous teams in the 1970's is another issue.  Kiss they ring or feel their wrath.  Do it how it used to be done or be questioned on it.  At MU it's not only hard to follow a legend, it's hard to follow a legend 30 years later.

Meanwhile in addition to the New Mexico assistant making $250K and O'Neill making $375K I've since found a few more without much trouble on Google. 

[DegenerateDish]

I think Mbakwe's thread was at least 7, if not 8 pages long.

[MilTown]

But for me, it's not personal and my comments were somewhat tongue and cheek. If you read my comments I was trying to make the point that I don't have any basis to judge crean on a personal level, other than I thought he should have been on time and wore proper attire to an event like the Tip Off luncheon. I guess he was recruiting Shumpert that day and as we all know traffic on the Eisenhower is awful, so he was late. But that's not the issue for me. I don't feel slighted personally. For me its all about hoops. All the outside things don't really matter. First and foremost, he's a coach. I'm just at odds with the Crean system for the most part for a number of reasons. But like I said, I can't argue with his success. He gets through to the kids and they produce on the floor. 

[The Lens]

Isn't the official Blue & Gold Golf Outing or the annual Chicago Luncheon sort of important for the Basketball coach?  

It's not the Whitefish Bay Rotary club, it's a collection of two major donor groups.  

No one is asking for butt kissing but rather the courtesy of showing up period, relatively on time (Chicago traffic) and with some impression that you'd like to be there.  These are both summer events planned by the University.  They can (or should) be planned around recruiting black out periods, camps etc.

As for the Turners comment, while many loved the fact our coach would close the bar with us, we were all smart enough to know that the long-term effects of that practice were not too good.  We may be dumb, hick Milwaukeeans or Chicagoans, but we're not that dumb.  We are hicks though...we love rumpled Doug Moe...he's so real!!

[🏀]

However, the only real beef I have with Crean is that he showed up to the Chicago Tip off luncheon looking like he just stepped out of practice. I'm not saying wear a suit, but at least toss on a collared shirt.

And while he was late for that, at least he made it, he was a no-show at the B&G Outing which caused a little scene.

These last two posts only confirm my long-running suspicion that most of those unhappy with Tom Crean's tenure feel that way because he's failed to properly kiss their rear ends.
By nearly all accounts, Crean has been a fantastic ambassador for MU. I have no personal experiences with the man, but I've read dozens of accounts here about him going well out of his way to make team/university supports feel welcome. If he misses a function now and again because he's doing his real job or dresses like a - gasp! - basketball coach on occasion, big freakin' deal.

By the way, have we set the record for longest MU Scoop thread yet?

Ding ding ding ding.  Or didn't have a beer with them at Turners after the game like Mike Deane did.

Part of it is a "Milwaukee thing" where they expect their coaches to be in the Doug Moe, Mike Deane...one of the guys mold.  Crean is a bit more polished then what some of Milwaukeans are used to so they call it "fake", but he's no different then many coaches in bigger cities who are used to having to deal with all the nonsense.

That is so ridiculous, but so true. Ah, Milwaukee can't handle the class!

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Isn't the official Blue & Gold Golf Outing or the annual Chicago Luncheon sort of important for the Basketball coach? 

No one is asking for butt kissing but rather the courtesy of showing up period, relatively on time (Chicago traffic) and with some impression that you'd like to be there.  These are both summer events planned by the University.  They can (or should) be planned around recruiting black out periods, camps etc.

I'm inclined to agree... however I've never worked in the athletic department or walked a mile in a coach's shoes. I can only imagine that EVERYBODY is wants him everywhere all of the time.

PLUS: Let's say he sacrifices a recruiting trip to a 7'5" stud to make sure he is on time for a luncheon. If we miss out on a recruit, people will BLAST him for not landing a big man.

I'm just saying, a coach is damned either way most of the time.

[MUSF]

So it sounds like TC goes out of his way to reach out to the average joe fan but doesn't pander to the important alumni donors.

Wow, what an ass. Sounds fake to me.

[The Lens]

Isn't the official Blue & Gold Golf Outing or the annual Chicago Luncheon sort of important for the Basketball coach? 

No one is asking for butt kissing but rather the courtesy of showing up period, relatively on time (Chicago traffic) and with some impression that you'd like to be there.  These are both summer events planned by the University.  They can (or should) be planned around recruiting black out periods, camps etc.

I'm inclined to agree... however I've never worked in the athletic department or walked a mile in a coaches shoes. I can only imagine that EVERYBODY is wants him everywhere all of the time.

PLUS: Let's say he sacrifices a recruiting trip to a 7'5" stud to make sure he is on time for a luncheon. If we miss out on a recruit, people will BLAST him for not landing a big man.

I'm just saying, a coach is damned either way most of the time.

Why would these two events be planned within recruiting periods? 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Isn't the official Blue & Gold Golf Outing or the annual Chicago Luncheon sort of important for the Basketball coach? 

No one is asking for butt kissing but rather the courtesy of showing up period, relatively on time (Chicago traffic) and with some impression that you'd like to be there.  These are both summer events planned by the University.  They can (or should) be planned around recruiting black out periods, camps etc.

I'm inclined to agree... however I've never worked in the athletic department or walked a mile in a coaches shoes. I can only imagine that EVERYBODY is wants him everywhere all of the time.

PLUS: Let's say he sacrifices a recruiting trip to a 7'5" stud to make sure he is on time for a luncheon. If we miss out on a recruit, people will BLAST him for not landing a big man.

I'm just saying, a coach is damned either way most of the time.

Why would these two events be planned within recruiting periods? 

My guess (and Chico's can probably speak to this better) is that there really isn't an "offseason" for coaches anymore. I would bet the calender is pretty full.

These events are probably planned on those particular weekends because it works for MU, Fr. Wild, the venue, Crean, etc. Trying to balance all of the schedules is a challenge, I'm sure.

I'm not saying what you are proposing is impossible (certainly anything is possible), it's just my best guess that Coach Crean is on the run the majority of the year... so logistical challenges/issues are always going to come up.

[Pakuni]

Isn't the official Blue & Gold Golf Outing or the annual Chicago Luncheon sort of important for the Basketball coach?  

Of course they're important, and I suspect Tom Crean believes they're important. That's why - to my knowledge - his absence at one particular event, or lateness at another, are exceptions to the rule. I'm not aware of him skipping out on these events regularly, but then again, I don't often rub elbows with the "major donors," so maybe I'm wrong. Am I?

Assuming otherwise though, I'm not going to rip the guy for missing a single event when I don't even know why he missed it. For all I know, he had a darned good reason. If I were to learn that he skipped it because he scored seats behind the dugout at Wrigley, then I'd question it (especially because it may be an indicator of Cubs loyalty ... yuck). But otherwise, if it's not a recurring problem and he presumably had a good reason to miss it, I don't think it's a big deal. A college head coach has many important responsibilities and sucking up to donors - while not entirely trivial - shouldn't rank too high on the list.