Crean's coaching level

[4everwarriors]

For the record, I have no desire or need to have my ass kissed.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I've heard point blank some MU alumni say "he's not Midwestern enough".  To which I laughed...the guy is from Michigan, what the hell do you want.

At any rate, some people believe the coach in charge has to be from the state or a "MU" guy or whatever.  I see this all the time at UCLA and USC with some of their alumns.  Kentucky and IU were so guility of it as well.

It's only some people, but it's surprising.  Don't these people just want to win?  Who gives a crap if they grew up in the city and or are from another part of the country or talk a little faster.  Win, graduate your players, keep out of trouble with the NCAA and I'm a happy camper.

[The Lens]

Never heard the "not Midwestern enough" thing but I don't get off the farm much.  Seems ridulous to me though, my MU folks I know would take Pat Riley, Rick Pitino, Marc Jacobs or Joseph Abboud if it meant a winning program.

In my mind it boils down to so much has been given, so many obstacles have been removed, so why is it bad to expect things?  Why are excuses always made? (We lead the country in FLU mentions)

We had a great season this year but for what MU has invested in this program, shouldn't our best season in 5 years be more than a 2nd round appearance? 

Weren't we 5th in operating budget?  Why do we act like we're in the MCC and we're this struggling outpost.

Why are we looking up at Xavier?

[SoCalEagle]

Win, graduate your players, keep out of trouble with the NCAA and I'm a happy camper.

Amen, Chicos, amen.  I don't think a lot of folks know how difficult it is to do those three things simultaneously.  I couldn't be any more proud of our program.  Well, i guess I could be more proud if we go to the Final Four again, but ......

[Coobeys Oil Depot]

Never heard the "not Midwestern enough" thing but I don't get off the farm much.  Seems ridulous to me though, my MU folks I know would take Pat Riley, Rick Pitino, Marc Jacobs or Joseph Abboud if it meant a winning program.

In my mind it boils down to so much has been given, so many obstacles have been removed, so why is it bad to expect things?  Why are excuses always made? (We lead the country in FLU mentions)

We had a great season this year but for what MU has invested in this program, shouldn't our best season in 5 years be more than a 2nd round appearance? 

Weren't we 5th in operating budget?  Why do we act like we're in the MCC and we're this struggling outpost.

Why are we looking up at Xavier?

Looking up at Xavier.....haha.

If Marquette was playing in the Atlantic 10 (which they will be in its glorified version in 8 years) the uproar from folks would be deafening.

[MUSF]

Never heard the "not Midwestern enough" thing but I don't get off the farm much.  Seems ridulous to me though, my MU folks I know would take Pat Riley, Rick Pitino, Marc Jacobs or Joseph Abboud if it meant a winning program.

In my mind it boils down to so much has been given, so many obstacles have been removed, so why is it bad to expect things?  Why are excuses always made? (We lead the country in FLU mentions)

We had a great season this year but for what MU has invested in this program, shouldn't our best season in 5 years be more than a 2nd round appearance? 

Weren't we 5th in operating budget?  Why do we act like we're in the MCC and we're this struggling outpost.

Why are we looking up at Xavier?

What are your expectations? I've asked this before but I never get an answer. All I know is that TC isn't living up to your standards whatever they may be.

The tourney is a strange beast. Shouldn't GTown have beaten Belmont? Does anyone think Coach K is unsuccessful?

Do you really think we're looking up at Xavier from an overall program perspective? Yes, they are better than us this year. So is Butler and Washington State but that doesn't make them UCLA and Kansas.

Look, I'm disappointed to but I don't think our second round loss to a higher seeded team makes this season, TC, or our program a disappointment.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Never heard the "not Midwestern enough" thing but I don't get off the farm much.  Seems ridulous to me though, my MU folks I know would take Pat Riley, Rick Pitino, Marc Jacobs or Joseph Abboud if it meant a winning program.

In my mind it boils down to so much has been given, so many obstacles have been removed, so why is it bad to expect things?  Why are excuses always made? (We lead the country in FLU mentions)

We had a great season this year but for what MU has invested in this program, shouldn't our best season in 5 years be more than a 2nd round appearance? 

Weren't we 5th in operating budget?  Why do we act like we're in the MCC and we're this struggling outpost.

Why are we looking up at Xavier?

What are your expectations? I've asked this before but I never get an answer. All I know is that TC isn't living up to your standards whatever they may be.

The tourney is a strange beast. Shouldn't GTown have beaten Belmont? Does anyone think Coach K is unsuccessful?

Do you really think we're looking up at Xavier from an overall program perspective? Yes, they are better than us this year. So is Butler and Washington State but that doesn't make them UCLA and Kansas.

Look, I'm disappointed to but I don't think our second round loss to a higher seeded team makes this season, TC, or our program a disappointment.

+1

Because to use this logic we are "better" than these programs


Arizona
Kentucky
UCONN
Duke

Etc.   It's kind of silly.  Some people want to put 100% on the NCAA tournament.  To each their own.  I divide things into three.  Non conference, conference, post season.     

In other words, if we had a crappy non-conference and conference season but somehow won the Big East tournament and got to the second round, is that the same as what we did this year? Not even close, but some want to judge on NCAA tournament only.  Give me Wisconsin's NCAA opponents and we'd be in the Elite 8 as well.  Hell, give me Wisconsin's Big Ten Schedule and we would have a 3 seed also, but that's not how it works.

[The Lens]

Never heard the "not Midwestern enough" thing but I don't get off the farm much.  Seems ridulous to me though, my MU folks I know would take Pat Riley, Rick Pitino, Marc Jacobs or Joseph Abboud if it meant a winning program.

In my mind it boils down to so much has been given, so many obstacles have been removed, so why is it bad to expect things?  Why are excuses always made? (We lead the country in FLU mentions)

We had a great season this year but for what MU has invested in this program, shouldn't our best season in 5 years be more than a 2nd round appearance? 

Weren't we 5th in operating budget?  Why do we act like we're in the MCC and we're this struggling outpost.

Why are we looking up at Xavier?

What are your expectations? I've asked this before but I never get an answer. All I know is that TC isn't living up to your standards whatever they may be.

The tourney is a strange beast. Shouldn't GTown have beaten Belmont? Does anyone think Coach K is unsuccessful?

Do you really think we're looking up at Xavier from an overall program perspective? Yes, they are better than us this year. So is Butler and Washington State but that doesn't make them UCLA and Kansas.

Look, I'm disappointed to but I don't think our second round loss to a higher seeded team makes this season, TC, or our program a disappointment.

XU has been much more consistent than we have the past 8 years (when TC' started to get his own players).  Since 2001 they've been in 7 of 8 NCAAs, 3 2nd Rounds + a Sweet 16 + an Elite 8.  That's 5 seasons of progress in the NCAAs.   Just b/c we're in the Maui Invite or the GAS that doesn't mean we're better. 

Don't get me wrong, this was a pretty good year and the NCAA loss to me is a wash.  IMO once you get to the 2nd round it's all about match ups etc. We lost in OT to a really good team.  But look at the season, we ranked up our usual 8 wins vs cupcakes (I know everyone plays them but if you use the wins measurement these must be discounted) and then we had a slightly worst conf record (pct wise) than last year even though we returned every major contributor and all 5 starters.  We did make progress in the BET and the NCAA so that is really good to see.

But look to next year, why should we believe we'll finish any better than 6th again?  We're going to lose our best player (at least everyone on Scout concedes this) and we don't add a true PG.

What are my expectations...I guess Coach Crean has met them (be relevant) but my mission in life is the fans realize that we still could improve.  People act like this program is a national force just b/c we're in the Maui or the GAS.  I guess I'd trade that stuff for playing on the 2nd weekend of the Dance more than ONCE in 9 years.  It's great that Jay Bilas LOVES Tom Crean but rather than a glowing article in December I'd like to not get embarrassed on the road consectuatively @West Va, @UL & @UConn by a team that has nearly 200 starts in it's starting 5. 

Look. I'm rambling, I'll admit, I just think given all the resources MU Hoops now has, it can do better.  IMO Xavier is living proof of that.

[The Lens]

PS...I have West Va in my pool but just explained to my wife that I am sort of cheering for XU to support my MUscoop arguement..she reminded me how much of a dork I am now, taking a message board arguement over my own pool.  MUScoop is in my kitchen.  I need help.

[MUSF]

PS...I have West Va in my pool but just explained to my wife that I am sort of cheering for XU to support my MUscoop arguement..she reminded me how much of a dork I am now, taking a message board arguement over my own pool.  MUScoop is in my kitchen.  I need help.

That's funny. My wife won't say it, but she feels the same way.

[SoCalEagle]

DKCL, I think you are right that we can do better, and I think we will.  Right now we are a pretty good team, but I think we get even better during the next decade.  We got a huge monkey off our back this year and I think we'll build on that. 

How do you think we'll do in the coming years???   

[MUSF]

Never heard the "not Midwestern enough" thing but I don't get off the farm much.  Seems ridulous to me though, my MU folks I know would take Pat Riley, Rick Pitino, Marc Jacobs or Joseph Abboud if it meant a winning program.

In my mind it boils down to so much has been given, so many obstacles have been removed, so why is it bad to expect things?  Why are excuses always made? (We lead the country in FLU mentions)

We had a great season this year but for what MU has invested in this program, shouldn't our best season in 5 years be more than a 2nd round appearance? 

Weren't we 5th in operating budget?  Why do we act like we're in the MCC and we're this struggling outpost.

Why are we looking up at Xavier?

What are your expectations? I've asked this before but I never get an answer. All I know is that TC isn't living up to your standards whatever they may be.

The tourney is a strange beast. Shouldn't GTown have beaten Belmont? Does anyone think Coach K is unsuccessful?

Do you really think we're looking up at Xavier from an overall program perspective? Yes, they are better than us this year. So is Butler and Washington State but that doesn't make them UCLA and Kansas.

Look, I'm disappointed to but I don't think our second round loss to a higher seeded team makes this season, TC, or our program a disappointment.

XU has been much more consistent than we have the past 8 years (when TC' started to get his own players).  Since 2001 they've been in 7 of 8 NCAAs, 3 2nd Rounds + a Sweet 16 + an Elite 8.  That's 5 seasons of progress in the NCAAs.   Just b/c we're in the Maui Invite or the GAS that doesn't mean we're better. 

Don't get me wrong, this was a pretty good year and the NCAA loss to me is a wash.  IMO once you get to the 2nd round it's all about match ups etc. We lost in OT to a really good team.  But look at the season, we ranked up our usual 8 wins vs cupcakes (I know everyone plays them but if you use the wins measurement these must be discounted) and then we had a slightly worst conf record (pct wise) than last year even though we returned every major contributor and all 5 starters.  We did make progress in the BET and the NCAA so that is really good to see.

But look to next year, why should we believe we'll finish any better than 6th again?  We're going to lose our best player (at least everyone on Scout concedes this) and we don't add a true PG.

What are my expectations...I guess Coach Crean has met them (be relevant) but my mission in life is the fans realize that we still could improve.  People act like this program is a national force just b/c we're in the Maui or the GAS.  I guess I'd trade that stuff for playing on the 2nd weekend of the Dance more than ONCE in 9 years.  It's great that Jay Bilas LOVES Tom Crean but rather than a glowing article in December I'd like to not get embarrassed on the road consectuatively @West Va, @UL & @UConn by a team that has nearly 200 starts in it's starting 5. 

Look. I'm rambling, I'll admit, I just think given all the resources MU Hoops now has, it can do better.  IMO Xavier is living proof of that.

I see your point on Xavier and it is valid, but I still don't think we are looking up at them. If you use the NCAAs as your only criteria, then a lot of powerhouse programs are looking up at Xavier. It just doesn't pass the smell test. You said it yourself, once you get past the 2nd round it is all about matchups. That is not to diminish the performance of Xavier. They are a legit top 25 program. I just think, all things considered, there program is not overall better than ours. Am I biased? Yes, but I am sure there are many others who would agree with me.

I also agree that we can get better. I don't think anyone here is content with never advancing past the second round again. I am just trying to stay realistic and I thing if we keep doing what we are doing, those tourney wins will come. It matters that TC got us to a final four once and that we have now made the tourney 3 straight years. I think he is continuing to improve as a coach and our program is also improving. Now, as I have said before, if he plateaus and it is clear that we are not able to take the next step, then we may want to look for a new coach. I think we are a long way from that point.

[The Lens]

I'm not in any way looking for a new coach...I just hope our current one understand he can do better.   Hiring an old sage type asst might help. 

XU is more than just a NCAA tourney cinderella their SOS was 4 spots behind us.  Their recent regular seasons have out shown us.

And, look at their opponent, West Va: 2 Sweet 16s, Elite 8 & NIT Champ.  Why can these schools with seemingly less resources, less tradition and worse recruiting areas be out doing us?

I agree the 3 NCAAs is fantastic, a huge huge milestone, I just hope we can build on it. 

Bottomline is everyone perceives XU as worst off than us but with 7 of 8 NCAAs, two Elite 8s and 3 more 2nd Rds, ho has had the better decade?  We seem to get caught up in the PR of glowing Jay Bilas articles and fawning praise from Seth Davis. 

BTW, 60% of me is only arguing to get this to 8 pages.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

XU has two significant advantages over MU.  Their own new on campus arena.  A softer conference in which to get a great seed in the NCAA tournament.

They get 2 or 3 conference losses and end up with 3 seeds.  My guess is they finish with 6 or 7 losses in the Big East and would get about a 5 or 6 seed.

[4everwarriors]

Please don't use the argument that Xavier's soft conference allows them to advance further in the Tourney. This just makes us sound like a bunch of pissers and moaners. BTW, if I recall correctly MU was a 3 seed in 2003 having played in that kitten Conference USA.

Facts are Xavier is having a terrific season and have had a better NCAA record than MU as of late. Give them their due. They also have this year's version of "coach du jour." Sorry if Sean Miller has stolen TC's thunder.

And, yes we are looking up at them because the last time I looked, the Musketeers are playing again on Saturday and Tom's team will be busy washing out their jockstraps.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Please don't use the argument that Xavier's soft conference allows them to advance further in the Tourney. This just makes us sound like a bunch of pissers and moaners. BTW, if I recall correctly MU was a 3 seed in 2003 having played in that kitten Conference USA.

Facts are Xavier is having a terrific season and have had a better NCAA record than MU as of late. Give them their due. They also have this year's version of "coach du jour." Sorry if Sean Miller has stolen TC's thunder.

And, yes we are looking up at them because the last time I looked, the Musketeers are playing again on Saturday and Tom's team will be busy washing out their jockstraps.

That's right....and when MU was a 3 how far did they go?  Odds are, if you are a 1-4 seed, you're going to go farther than if you're 5-9 (and don't say it's only because they are better teams...that's not always true...MU in the Big Ten or A-10 this year would have done just as well at Wisconsin-madison or Xavier).  Seeding and matchups are EVERYTHING in the NCAA tournament.  Absolutely everything.  You get a breeze game in round 1 and get to play a team that had to fight in round 2.  It means everything (but for the record, I do think Xavier is ahead of us).

I'm just glad Duke, Kentucky, Gonzaga, Vanderbilt, USC, Indiana, BYU, Notre Dame, UNLV and others are looking up to us since they were washing their jockstraps while we were still playing. 

[MUSF]

Please don't use the argument that Xavier's soft conference allows them to advance further in the Tourney. This just makes us sound like a bunch of pissers and moaners. BTW, if I recall correctly MU was a 3 seed in 2003 having played in that kitten Conference USA.

Facts are Xavier is having a terrific season and have had a better NCAA record than MU as of late. Give them their due. They also have this year's version of "coach du jour." Sorry if Sean Miller has stolen TC's thunder.

And, yes we are looking up at them because the last time I looked, the Musketeers are playing again on Saturday and Tom's team will be busy washing out their jockstraps.

MU was in that kitten Conference USA in 2003 which probably gave us a few more wins in conf. than we would have had in the BE which allowed us to get a higher seed. You are making Chico's point.

No one said Xavier isn't having a great season.

Finally, if the only reason we are looking up at them is because they are playing and we are not, then we are also looking up at Western Kentucky, Davidson, and Washington State. And guess what. Duke, UCONN, Arizona, and GTown are looking up at them too.

[4everwarriors]

College basketball success can be judged in different ways. For me, winning in March, aka the post season , is the standard of success I prefer to use.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Never heard the "not Midwestern enough" thing but I don't get off the farm much.  Seems ridulous to me though, my MU folks I know would take Pat Riley, Rick Pitino, Marc Jacobs or Joseph Abboud if it meant a winning program.

In my mind it boils down to so much has been given, so many obstacles have been removed, so why is it bad to expect things?  Why are excuses always made? (We lead the country in FLU mentions)

We had a great season this year but for what MU has invested in this program, shouldn't our best season in 5 years be more than a 2nd round appearance? 

Weren't we 5th in operating budget?  Why do we act like we're in the MCC and we're this struggling outpost.

Why are we looking up at Xavier?

What are your expectations? I've asked this before but I never get an answer. All I know is that TC isn't living up to your standards whatever they may be.

The tourney is a strange beast. Shouldn't GTown have beaten Belmont? Does anyone think Coach K is unsuccessful?

Do you really think we're looking up at Xavier from an overall program perspective? Yes, they are better than us this year. So is Butler and Washington State but that doesn't make them UCLA and Kansas.

Look, I'm disappointed to but I don't think our second round loss to a higher seeded team makes this season, TC, or our program a disappointment.

XU has been much more consistent than we have the past 8 years (when TC' started to get his own players).  Since 2001 they've been in 7 of 8 NCAAs, 3 2nd Rounds + a Sweet 16 + an Elite 8.  That's 5 seasons of progress in the NCAAs.   Just b/c we're in the Maui Invite or the GAS that doesn't mean we're better. 

Don't get me wrong, this was a pretty good year and the NCAA loss to me is a wash.  IMO once you get to the 2nd round it's all about match ups etc. We lost in OT to a really good team.  But look at the season, we ranked up our usual 8 wins vs cupcakes (I know everyone plays them but if you use the wins measurement these must be discounted) and then we had a slightly worst conf record (pct wise) than last year even though we returned every major contributor and all 5 starters.  We did make progress in the BET and the NCAA so that is really good to see.

But look to next year, why should we believe we'll finish any better than 6th again?  We're going to lose our best player (at least everyone on Scout concedes this) and we don't add a true PG.

What are my expectations...I guess Coach Crean has met them (be relevant) but my mission in life is the fans realize that we still could improve.  People act like this program is a national force just b/c we're in the Maui or the GAS.  I guess I'd trade that stuff for playing on the 2nd weekend of the Dance more than ONCE in 9 years.  It's great that Jay Bilas LOVES Tom Crean but rather than a glowing article in December I'd like to not get embarrassed on the road consectuatively @West Va, @UL & @UConn by a team that has nearly 200 starts in it's starting 5. 

Look. I'm rambling, I'll admit, I just think given all the resources MU Hoops now has, it can do better.  IMO Xavier is living proof of that.

In this case, I think I agree with you.

I'd say my expectations are rising... by I'm still patient because I like the direction of the program.

Given what I have seen from MU, I still think the program is getting better. If MU had just lost the stanford game with a roster loaded with seniors and a sub-par recruiting class coming in, I'd be much more upset.

But, given MU's current roster, and relatively short renaissance (still have only been in the BEAST for 3 seasons), I would say that the program is still gaining momentum. MU might not get better EVERY season... but the overall performance levels are still on the rise. I think H. Sugar had a great post about this in a previous thread.



PS Everybody, when you have your cereal tomorrow morning, please check your milk cartons for Puertoricannightmare's picture.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

College basketball success can be judged in different ways. For me, winning in March, aka the post season , is the standard of success I prefer to use.

Nothing really wrong with that... but let's be honest... you are going to be disappointed almost every season, no matter what school you are a fan of.

There is only 1 champ.

 

[IAmMarquette]

BTW, 60% of me is only arguing to get this to 8 pages.   

Trevor Mbakwe knows where you sleep.

[The Lens]

XU has two significant advantages over MU.  Their own new on campus arena.  A softer conference in which to get a great seed in the NCAA tournament.

They get 2 or 3 conference losses and end up with 3 seeds.  My guess is they finish with 6 or 7 losses in the Big East and would get about a 5 or 6 seed.

SOS MU #20, XU #24...seems to be like we played essentially the same schedule.  Out of 319 some schools, that's statistically even.

And I didn't cite XU b/c they were in the Sweet 16 (now the Elite 8) this season, I cited them b/c they have been in 7 of the last 8 tourney's, have won at least a game 5 times and are Jesuit in an undesirable Midwestern city. 

Finally, I thought the Big East was a value not a burden?  Shouldn't XU's recruiting be hurt by their lower profile, weaker conf? 

[ChicosBailBonds]

XU has two significant advantages over MU.  Their own new on campus arena.  A softer conference in which to get a great seed in the NCAA tournament.

They get 2 or 3 conference losses and end up with 3 seeds.  My guess is they finish with 6 or 7 losses in the Big East and would get about a 5 or 6 seed.

SOS MU #20, XU #24...seems to be like we played essentially the same schedule.  Out of 319 some schools, that's statistically even.

And I didn't cite XU b/c they were in the Sweet 16 (now the Elite 8) this season, I cited them b/c they have been in 7 of the last 8 tourney's, have won at least a game 5 times and are Jesuit in an undesirable Midwestern city. 

Finally, I thought the Big East was a value not a burden?  Shouldn't XU's recruiting be hurt by their lower profile, weaker conf? 

Big East is a value to get into the tournament, a burden to get a top seed.

Xavier's non-conference SOS was 15.  MU's was 134.  Xavier, thus, cleaned up in their league and in the last 15 games because of their schedule while MU was having to slug it out with 6 top 30 teams...Xavier had to play NONE.

[Chili]

i just want post in this thread

[The Lens]

Good work Chili...we'll get 8 pages with help like yours.  Heck I may start argueing against myself if it gets us to 8 pages.