Syria = Impending S-Show

[Scoop Snoop]

nm-double post

[Pakuni]

Their enemy is Hamas, but how can one tell the difference between a Gazan and Hamas?

Lt. William Calley has joined the chat.

[MUBurrow]

nm

[MUBurrow]

With thinking like this the Nazis would still be running Germany and most of Europe. The Japanese warlords would control large swaths of the Asian Pacific. Perhaps we should have negotiated a peace in instead of declaring war on the Japanese after they attacked us. After all we don't want to over react and commit genocide despite losing 2000 sailors at Pearl Harbor.

Edit: nm.  This "fell asleep in my chair watching the History Channel, I ignore the lessons of any war between 1945 and now" stuff isn't worth engaging with.

[The Sultan]

I had started a post about this the other day and got sidetracked.  This discussion has gotten wild and absurd, but unless I'm mistaken, everyone in here supports Israel's right to exist and if a post-Bibi, non Likud dominated Israeli government ceased hostilities and aggression and worked toward a sustainable coexistence with the Palestinians, most of the negativity toward Israel as a state/entity would evaporate and dissipate.

Israel has a right to exist. Most serious people know this.

But we have Scoopers here who will turn a blind eye to whatever Israel has done, and even one who puts "Palestinians" in quotes for whatever reason.

Maybe its because we are trying to jusitfy why we caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in two countries in response to 9/11 or something, but we have lost all semblance of what a proportionate response should be. I guess because people who think that since we were successful in Japan that therefore that should be our response to everything?

Being attacked doesn't mean you have a blank check with your response. There are all sorts of ways why that not only just realistically doesn't work, but it is morally wrong.

[MuggsyB]

Israel has a right to exist. Most serious people know this.

But we have Scoopers here who will turn a blind eye to whatever Israel has done, and even one who puts "Palestinians" in quotes for whatever reason.

Maybe its because we are trying to jusitfy why we caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in two countries in response to 9/11 or something, but we have lost all semblance of what a proportionate response should be. I guess because people who think that since we were successful in Japan that therefore that should be our response to everything?

Being attacked doesn't mean you have a blank check with your response. There are all sorts of ways why that not only just realistically doesn't work, but it is morally wrong.

This is nonsense.  The primary problem is not the morality of how Israel is defending themselves after they were attacked.  It's the refusal for the vast majority of people to understand the nature of the conflict, which IS the existence of Israel. 

This is not a land issue at all.  Or an "occupation" or "apartheid" issue.  Israel is surrounded by enemies that have no interest whatsoever in peace.  Their goal is the extermination of every Jew there, perhaps every Jew in tbe world, and for Israel to be wiped off the map.  Period. 

There are like 2 million Arabs living and working in Israel.  Ask them if they'd rather live there or any other Arab country in the region.  Israel is dealing with a situation deeply rooted in religion and an evil, evil, ideology.  We and the West refuse to deal with this reality and are exacerbating vehement antisemitism all over the world. 

[Uncle Rico]

This is nonsense.  The primary problem is not the morality of how Israel is defending themselves after they were attacked.  It's the refusal for the vast majority of people to understand the nature of the conflict, which IS the existence of Israel. 

This is not a land issue at all.  Or an "occupation" or "apartheid" issue.  Israel is surrounded by enemies that have no interest whatsoever in peace.  Their goal is the extermination of every Jew there, perhaps every Jew in tbe world, and for Israel to be wiped off the map.  Period. 

There are like 2 million Arabs living and working in Israel.  Ask them if they'd rather live there or any other Arab country in the region.  Israel is dealing with a situation deeply rooted in religion and an evil, evil, ideology.  We and the West refuse to deal with this reality and are exacerbating vehement antisemitism all over the world. 

Just wait until America starts expelling Jews and treating them like second class citizens.  It'll take awhile.  Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs will be the first non-desirable religions targeted but they'll come for the Jews and Catholics a soon enough.

[muwarrior69]

Israel has a right to exist. Most serious people know this.

But we have Scoopers here who will turn a blind eye to whatever Israel has done, and even one who puts "Palestinians" in quotes for whatever reason.

Maybe its because we are trying to jusitfy why we caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in two countries in response to 9/11 or something, but we have lost all semblance of what a proportionate response should be. I guess because people who think that since we were successful in Japan that therefore that should be our response to everything?

Being attacked doesn't mean you have a blank check with your response. There are all sorts of ways why that not only just realistically doesn't work, but it is morally wrong.

Hamas are serious people and do not believe Israel has a right to exist. As long as Hamas and their mind set to eliminate Israel remains there will be no end to this conflict. That too is morally wrong.

[MuggsyB]

Just wait until America starts expelling Jews and treating them like second class citizens.  It'll take awhile.  Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs will be the first non-desirable religions targeted but they'll come for the Jews and Catholics a soon enough.

Deny the goal of Islsmists and their terrorists all you want.  The Caliphate and Sharia Law aren't imaginary goals. 

[Uncle Rico]

Deny the goal of Ismaists and their terrorists all you want.  The Caliphate and Sharia Law aren't imaginary goals. 

Neither is a pure America.  That's not an imaginary goal either

[MuggsyB]

Neither is a pure America.  That's not an imaginary goal either

My 5 point plan covers them as well. 

[Uncle Rico]

My 5 point plan covers them as well. 

Too late.

[The Sultan]

Hamas are serious people and do not believe Israel has a right to exist. As long as Hamas and their mind set to eliminate Israel remains there will be no end to this conflict. That too is morally wrong.

No kidding.

[The Sultan]

This is nonsense.  The primary problem is not the morality of how Israel is defending themselves after they were attacked.  It's the refusal for the vast majority of people to understand the nature of the conflict, which IS the existence of Israel. 

This is not a land issue at all.  Or an "occupation" or "apartheid" issue.  Israel is surrounded by enemies that have no interest whatsoever in peace.  Their goal is the extermination of every Jew there, perhaps every Jew in tbe world, and for Israel to be wiped off the map.  Period.   

Actually it is you who has no understanding of the nature of this conflict. From the very beginning this was about Iran and its proxies attacking Israel, knowing they would get this response, because they were on the verge of signing a peace treaty with Saudi Arabia.  And SA is way more of a rival to Iran than Israel is.

It's not 1975 any longer. Israel has a peace treaty with Egypt. They by and large get along with Jordan. As I said, they were on the verge of a historic treaty with Saudi Arabia. One that is now impossible due to this response. So I suggest that you actually do a little research and gain a little understanding of how we got here, because your mindset is about fifty years out of date.

And yes, a huge part of this is the morality of Israel's actions.

[MuggsyB]

Actually it is you who has no understanding of the nature of this conflict. From the very beginning this was about Iran and its proxies attacking Israel, knowing they would get this response, because they were on the verge of signing a peace treaty with Saudi Arabia.  And SA is way more of a rival to Iran than Israel is.

It's not 1975 any longer. Israel has a peace treaty with Egypt. They by and large get along with Jordan. As I said, they were on the verge of a historic treaty with Saudi Arabia. One that is now impossible due to this response. So I suggest that you actually do a little research and gain a little understanding of how we got here, because your mindset is about fifty years out of date.

And yes, a huge part of this is the morality of Israel's actions.

Your hypocrisy is on full display once again.  Israel is still trying to get hostages out and dealing with terrorists embedded in Gaza. It's an extremely difficult operation and the most scrutinized war ever.  No one seemed to give a s how many innocent Libyans, Iraqis, or Syrians we've killed in the last 15 years.  No one seems to give a s about how many totally innocent Afghanis we've murdered in drone strikes. 

This isn't about proportionality, it's a totally ridiculous narrative.   Were we obsessed with German civilian deaths in WW2?  Was our response in Dresden propotional?  Was it genocidal?  Neither?  Was our response to Peatl Harbor proportional? 

Now, you can argue whether we should have fire bombed Dresden, nuked Japan, or cluster bombed the fk out of countries in the middle east.  You can discuss whether that was the best option and even the morality.  The difference is the entire freaking world isn't labeling us (or the UK) as a genocidal state like they have with Israel.  The difference is we agree that the Nazis were evil, wrong, and no one was hyperventilating over the innocent Germans slaughtered.  The difference is no one was sympathetic to the Nazis once they were getting their asses handed to them and losing millions of civilian lives.  You wanna know the difference between the Nazis and Hamas morally?  The Nazis hid their atrocities while Hamas boasts abouts them and calls their mommy's who are proud of their sons.  Fk all of them. 

[Uncle Rico]

Your hypocrisy is on full display once again.  Israel is still trying to get hostages out and dealing with terrorists embedded in Gaza. It's an extremely difficult operation and the most scrutinized war ever.  No one seemed to give a s how many innocent Libyans, Iraqis, or Syrians we've killed in the last 15 years.  No one seems to give a s about how many totally innocent Afghanis we've murdered in drone strikes. 

This isn't about proportionality, it's a totally ridiculous narrative.   Were we obsessed with German civilian deaths in WW2?  Was our response in Dresden propotional?  Was it genocidal?  Neither?  Was our response to Peatl Harbor proportional? 

Now, you can argue whether we should have fire bombed Dresden, nuked Japan, or cluster bombed the fk out of countries in the middle east.  You can discuss whether that was the best option and even the morality.  The difference is the entire freaking world isn't labeling us (or the UK) as a genocidal state like they have with Israel.  The difference is we agree that the Nazis were evil, wrong, and no one was hyperventilating over the innocent Germans slaughtered.  The difference is no one was sympathetic to the Nazis once they were getting their asses handed to them and losing millions of civilian lives.  You wanna know the difference between the Nazis and Hamas morally?  The Nazis hid their atrocities while Hamas boasts abouts them and calls their mommy's who are proud of their sons.  Fk all of them. 

Hope you're this angry when the white nationalists running this country target Jews

[The Sultan]

Your hypocrisy is on full display once again.  Israel is still trying to get hostages out and dealing with terrorists embedded in Gaza. It's an extremely difficult operation and the most scrutinized war ever.  No one seemed to give a s how many innocent Libyans, Iraqis, or Syrians we've killed in the last 15 years.  No one seems to give a s about how many totally innocent Afghanis we've murdered in drone strikes. 

This isn't about proportionality, it's a totally ridiculous narrative.   Were we obsessed with German civilian deaths in WW2?  Was our response in Dresden propotional?  Was it genocidal?  Neither?  Was our response to Peatl Harbor proportional? 

Now, you can argue whether we should have fire bombed Dresden, nuked Japan, or cluster bombed the fk out of countries in the middle east.  You can discuss whether that was the best option and even the morality.  The difference is the entire freaking world isn't labeling us (or the UK) as a genocidal state like they have with Israel.  The difference is we agree that the Nazis were evil, wrong, and no one was hyperventilating over the innocent Germans slaughtered.  The difference is no one was sympathetic to the Nazis once they were getting their asses handed to them and losing millions of civilian lives.  You wanna know the difference between the Nazis and Hamas morally?  The Nazis hid their atrocities while Hamas boasts abouts them and calls their mommy's who are proud of their sons.  Fk all of them. 

Deflect, deflect, deflect. That's all you got.

[jesmu84]

Muggs, or anyone else -

What evidence would have to be presented to you, or who would the messenger have to be, for you to admit Israel is committing a genocide/ethnic cleansing?

[MU82]

Hope you're this angry when the white nationalists running this country target Jews

"Blood and soil! Jews will not replace us!" - some very fine people, Charlottesville, 2017

[MuggsyB]

Muggs, or anyone else -

What evidence would have to be presented to you, or who would the messenger have to be, for you to admit Israel is committing a genocide/ethnic cleansing?

Genocide and ethnic cleansing are two different things.  Genocide is the attempt to exterminate an entire ethnic group or race.  Ethnic cleansing is murdering an ethnic group (or you can argue religious group) for the purpose of power within a region.  Why do 2 million Palestinians live in Israel and work under their laws with the same freedoms as Jews?  Why do they live better and are treated better than Arabs in all the other countries in the Middle East?  If Israel is a " genocidal" state or engaging in "ethic cleansing" why aren't they massacring all the Palestinians within Israel?  Or the West Bank?  Or Arabs all over the Middle East for that matter?

[tower912]

"Blood and soil! Jews will not replace us!" - some very fine people, Charlottesville, 2017

They will be shipped to Stalag-ator Alcatraz first.

[MuggsyB]

Deflect, deflect, deflect. That's all you got.

Not a deflection at all, you refuse to answer the question.  It's called a fking war.  War sucks, it isn't humanitarian and has never been.  Your obsession over Israel as opposed to other wars and conflicts, wars that we have been involved with and the West, wars where countless innocent children die and civilians, all over the freaking world, is frankly mendacious and embarrassing.  I simply do not believe you care more about Palestinian lives vs Sudanese lives, Libyan lives, Afghani lives, etc, etc, etc.  And if you do actually care more about Palestinians, your explanation is utter horse excrement.  Your "Israel is our ally", ergo they're genocidal, is a complete load of crap Fluffy.

[MuggsyB]

Hope you're this angry when the white nationalists running this country target Jews

I'm already angry. 

[The Sultan]

Not a deflection at all, you refuse to answer the question.  It's called a fking war.  War sucks, it isn't humanitarian and has never been.  Your obsession over Israel as opposed to other wars and conflicts, wars that we have been involved with and the West, wars where countless innocent children die and civilians, all over the freaking world, is frankly mendacious and embarrassing.  I simply do not believe you care more about Palestinian lives vs Sudanese lives, Libyan lives, Afghani lives, etc, etc, etc.  And if you do actually care more about Palestinians, your explanation is utter horse excrement.  Your "Israel is our ally", ergo they're genocidal, is a complete load of crap Fluffy.

For the millionth time, you don't have to express outrage over EVERY injustice to be concerned about a SPECIFIC injustice.

And this, once again, is a mere deflection because you (apparently) don't have the ability to actually defend your point of view.

Everyone: This is bad
Muggsy: There are a lot of bad things. You are a hypocrite because you are not talking about these other bad things.

See how dumb that is?

[MuggsyB]

For the millionth time, you don't have to express outrage over EVERY injustice to be concerned about a SPECIFIC injustice.

And this, once again, is a mere deflection because you (apparently) don't have the ability to actually defend your point of view.

Everyone: This is bad
Muggsy: There are a lot of bad things. You are a hypocrite because you are not talking about these other bad things.

See how dumb that is?

You've missed the point completely.  You're a hypocrite because of your obsession over Israel and talking about it constantly .  You wouldn't be a hypocrite if you gave it thr exact same attention you and the vast majority of people give other "bad things".   Which is essentially not discussing them at all.  And your reasoning for doing so is again, a pile of excrement.