Syria = Impending S-Show

[JWags85]

I don't think many critics of Israel here - or in the West in general - argue that Hamas is good, moral or protective leaders of their people. 

"Hamas is bad, too" is little more than a deflection of the legitimate denunciation of Israel's actions here. Especially since we ought to be holding Israel to a higher standard than we would a terrorist organization.

I was purely replying to Jesu questioning if Hamas was shooting Palestinians. And it's not a deflection of "both sides are bad" but more a response to this continued idea of see of any time shots are fired in the area of civilians, it's automatically attributed to IDF cause "who else would be shooting" as if Hamas hasn't fired upon Palestinians countless times.

And while I think the "just release the hostages" knee jerk mantra is a bit tired and reductive, it also sort of muddles the very real fact that while Hamas may be defanged in terms of counter attacking Tel Aviv, they are still actively and violently sabotaging the lives of Gazans in unison with Israel, and giving Israel defenders plausible deniability for aggression. 

Honestly if Israel pulled back for 2 weeks and let the powers that be in Gaza, aka Hamas, deal with aid and the ongoing situation, it would be illuminating to some of that.  But the Likud lunatics would never allow it and the PR battle lines are probably too deeply dug at this point

[Scoop Snoop]

Where do you start the timeline in something that has been going on for countless decades?

Israel is our ally, they are on the side of good. If you are not our ally, you are on the side of bad.

Gazans, Palestinians, etc., would argue that their actions were in self defense.

That is the problem in these types of things, they are way more complex than many will admit. I just address the complexity of things.

Forgetful, please pardon my editing. It was a great post as it was, but I'm just trying to focus on a couple of your points.

I think that the proudly historically ignorant have become the majority today. When historical background is brought up in discussions it is not only ignored but often ridiculed. The "here and now" take today has become preferable, but maybe I am just being nostalgic, as this may have been the case all along. I expect this from uneducated people but like to think that a Marquette grad would be above this.

[Uncle Rico]

Forgetful, please pardon my editing. It was a great post as it was, but I'm just trying to focus on a couple of your points.

I think that the proudly historically ignorant have become the majority today. When historical background is brought up in discussions it is not only ignored but often ridiculed. The "here and now" take today has become preferable, but maybe I am just being nostalgic, as this may have been the case all along. I expect this from uneducated people but like to think that a Marquette grad would be above this.

Muggsy doesn't do complex or nuance.  Just attack and let god sort them out

[BM1090]

The IDF is not open firing on children in Gaza.  Maybe there have been evil individuals that have within the IDF, but that's not there policy.  Hamas wants dead children.  They build the headquarters and tunnels under hospitals abd schools.  Hamas via Iran is primarily responsible for this hell hole situation.

This is true if you ignore literally every single person that has been worked on the ground in Gaza.

[Scoop Snoop]

IF  If the Jewish population were to leave, and we set up a state/territory for them in the USA, Let's give them New Jersey. They would gain about 1/3 more square miles and territory without a desert. what exactly do you think would happen to that land or the Middle East as a whole?  Would it be gumdrop smiles?  Rivers of chocolate? What? Gumdrop smiles? Rivers of chocolate? Even for you, this is really weird.

[MuggsyB]

Muggsy doesn't do complex or nuance.  Just attack and let god sort them out

Wrong. 

[The Sultan]

Wrong. 

LOL, were you trying to prove him right or something?

[MuggsyB]

No I am correct. And either you don't have the ability to see that, or you are being intentionally obtuse.

Regardless, your continued deflections on this topic pretty much shows a lot about your priorities really.

No, you are incorrect.  And your "they are our ally" take is patently absurd.  We all know why Israel can't win in the media and are constantly vilified.  The sympathy for them lasted about 5 days after Hamas' ignominious act.  I'm not deflecting at all, I'm pointing out ridiculous hypocrisy.  The reason no one will answer my questions about their obsession over Gaza, vs other terrible tragedies, is because they don't have an answer. 

[The Sultan]

No, you are incorrect.  And your "they are our ally" take is patently absurd. 

Nope. It is 100% accurate. You have to be completely ignorant of history to see otherwise.

We all know why Israel can't win in the media and are constantly vilified.

Yes. Because they are committing genocide.

The sympathy for them lasted about 5 days after Hamas' ignominious act.

I know you are being intentionally hyperbolic here, but that is absolutely false. Israel most definitely was the sympathetic party. It was not until their response became ridiculously disproportionate that they lost that sympathy.

I'm not deflecting at all, I'm pointing out ridiculous hypocrisy.  The reason no one will answer my questions about their obsession over Gaza, vs other terrible tragedies, is because they don't have an answer. 

I've answered it multiple times. You have either ignored my response or simply can't comprehend it.

[MuggsyB]

Nope. It is 100% accurate. You have to be completely ignorant of history to see otherwise.


Yes. Because they are committing genocide.


I know you are being intentionally hyperbolic here, but that is absolutely false. Israel most definitely was the sympathetic party. It was not until their response became ridiculously disproportionate that they lost that sympathy.


I've answered it multiple times. You have either ignored my response or simply can't comprehend it.

Ya, and your answer is utter garbage/ a bold faced lie. 

[MUBurrow]

The reason no one will answer my questions about their obsession over Gaza, vs other terrible tragedies, is because they don't have an answer. 

Lots of people have answered your questions, Muggs.  Our "obsession" is about our identification and connection with Israel. Some of us are more focused on the tangible political and economic connections, some on our professed shared values, hell some maybe even based on our shared Judeo-Christian history.  At the end of the day, we care because when Israel acts like the bad guys, it hurts our cause, however narrowly or broadly we define that.

We expect the bad guys to act like bad guys.  We don't protest bad guys because they have shown protest doesn't matter to them.  That's part of what makes them bad guys - if you're a good guy, a certain critical mass of protest matters to you.  Its actually far more anti-semitic for you to say "Hamas is bad so the Jews should blast Gazans to hell" than it is to hold Israel to account. 

[The Sultan]

Ya, and your answer is utter garbage/ a bold faced lie. 

It is neither, but you don't have the capacity to counter it in a meaningful way.

Which is your usual Scoop behavior, whether here or on the MUBB forum, so I don't know why I would expect any different now.

[Hards Alumni]

Ya, and your answer is utter garbage/ a bold faced lie. 

Have you considered that you're wholly ignorant on the topic and everyone else might be right?

[Scoop Snoop]

Have you considered that you're wholly ignorant on the topic and everyone else might be right?

He is totally incapable of admitting this.

With the disclaimer that I have absolutely no professional qualifications in psychotherapy, my layman's guess is that he may have a Messiah Complex. A few characteristics gathered from the internet are:

grandiose delusions

inflated sense of self-importance

desire for praise, power, or self-worth

demand of obedience from others

belief of being the "chosen one" responsible for saving others

[MU82]

He is totally incapable of admitting this.

With the disclaimer that I have absolutely no professional qualifications in psychotherapy, my layman's guess is that he may have a Messiah Complex. A few characteristics gathered from the internet are:

grandiose delusions

inflated sense of self-importance

desire for praise, power, or self-worth

demand of obedience from others

belief of being the "chosen one" responsible for saving others

Muggsy 2028!!

[muwarrior69]

Lots of people have answered your questions, Muggs.  Our "obsession" is about our identification and connection with Israel. Some of us are more focused on the tangible political and economic connections, some on our professed shared values, hell some maybe even based on our shared Judeo-Christian history.  At the end of the day, we care because when Israel acts like the bad guys, it hurts our cause, however narrowly or broadly we define that.

We expect the bad guys to act like bad guys.  We don't protest bad guys because they have shown protest doesn't matter to them.  That's part of what makes them bad guys - if you're a good guy, a certain critical mass of protest matters to you.  Its actually far more anti-semitic for you to say "Hamas is bad so the Jews should blast Gazans to hell" than it is to hold Israel to account. 

With thinking like this the Nazis would still be running Germany and most of Europe. The Japanese warlords would control large swaths of the Asian Pacific. Perhaps we should have negotiated a peace in instead of declaring war on the Japanese after they attacked us. After all we don't want to over react and commit genocide despite losing 2000 sailors at Pearl Harbor.

Instead we fought a terrible war we did not ask for. We fought it until our enemy could no longer make war and if that meant bombing their cities to the ground we did it. Now historians can debate the morality of it but I am glad they did what they did as I doubt my dad would have survived an invasion of Japan. You see that war affected me personally. I am sure the Israelis take this war personally and want their enemy eliminated.

Their enemy is Hamas, but how can one tell the difference between a Gazan and Hamas? In fact I don't see any Gazans fighting Hamas to end the hostilities so their wives and children can be fed.

As you can tell after October 7 I have lost all sympathy for the Gazans and "Palestinians". Just my opinion and you are all welcome to yours. Regardless the Israelis will do what is best for them and nothing that is discussed here will change that.

[Uncle Rico]

With thinking like this the Nazis would still be running Germany and most of Europe. The Japanese warlords would control large swaths of the Asian Pacific. Perhaps we should have negotiated a peace in instead of declaring war on the Japanese after they attacked us. After all we don't want to over react and commit genocide despite losing 2000 sailors at Pearl Harbor.

Instead we fought a terrible war we did not ask for. We fought it until our enemy could no longer make war and if that meant bombing their cities to the ground we did it. Now historians can debate the morality of it but I am glad they did what they did as I doubt my dad would have survived an invasion of Japan. You see that war affected me personally. I am sure the Israelis take this war personally and want their enemy eliminated.

Their enemy is Hamas, but how can one tell the difference between a Gazan and Hamas? In fact I don't see any Gazans fighting Hamas to end the hostilities so their wives and children can be fed.

As you can tell after October 7 I have lost all sympathy for the Gazans and "Palestinians". Just my opinion and you are all welcome to yours. Regardless the Israelis will do what is best for them and nothing that is discussed here will change that.

Including genocide

[The Sultan]

As you can tell after October 7 I have lost all sympathy for the Gazans and "Palestinians". Just my opinion and you are all welcome to yours. Regardless the Israelis will do what is best for them and nothing that is discussed here will change that.

On the one hand, this user has a history of complaining that Marquette is no longer Catholic enough.

On the other, he takes a decidedly unchristian point-of-view regarding the victims of war.

[Hards Alumni]

With thinking like this the Nazis would still be running Germany and most of Europe. The Japanese warlords would control large swaths of the Asian Pacific. Perhaps we should have negotiated a peace in instead of declaring war on the Japanese after they attacked us. After all we don't want to over react and commit genocide despite losing 2000 sailors at Pearl Harbor.

Instead we fought a terrible war we did not ask for. We fought it until our enemy could no longer make war and if that meant bombing their cities to the ground we did it. Now historians can debate the morality of it but I am glad they did what they did as I doubt my dad would have survived an invasion of Japan. You see that war affected me personally. I am sure the Israelis take this war personally and want their enemy eliminated.

Their enemy is Hamas, but how can one tell the difference between a Gazan and Hamas? In fact I don't see any Gazans fighting Hamas to end the hostilities so their wives and children can be fed.

As you can tell after October 7 I have lost all sympathy for the Gazans and "Palestinians". Just my opinion and you are all welcome to yours. Regardless the Israelis will do what is best for them and nothing that is discussed here will change that.

Congrats, you went from being anti-genocide to pro-genocide in a couple of paragraphs.

The innocent civilians you're excusing death and destruction of are largely children who obviously have no chance of fighting back against Hamas.

Surely, your father would be proud that you're backing the destruction of innocent people.

Truly remarkable stuff.

[Uncle Rico]

On the one hand, this user has a history of complaining that Marquette is no longer Catholic enough.

On the other, he takes a decidedly unchristian point-of-view regarding the victims of war.

To be fair, Catholic history is mixed on genocide.  Was both a victim and willing participant in it.  It's kind of confusing

[Shaka Shart]

With thinking like this the Nazis would still be running Germany and most of Europe. The Japanese warlords would control large swaths of the Asian Pacific. Perhaps we should have negotiated a peace in instead of declaring war on the Japanese after they attacked us. After all we don't want to over react and commit genocide despite losing 2000 sailors at Pearl Harbor.

Instead we fought a terrible war we did not ask for. We fought it until our enemy could no longer make war and if that meant bombing their cities to the ground we did it. Now historians can debate the morality of it but I am glad they did what they did as I doubt my dad would have survived an invasion of Japan. You see that war affected me personally. I am sure the Israelis take this war personally and want their enemy eliminated.

Their enemy is Hamas, but how can one tell the difference between a Gazan and Hamas? In fact I don't see any Gazans fighting Hamas to end the hostilities so their wives and children can be fed.

As you can tell after October 7 I have lost all sympathy for the Gazans and "Palestinians". Just my opinion and you are all welcome to yours. Regardless the Israelis will do what is best for them and nothing that is discussed here will change that.

Empathy is dead

[Shaka Shart]

Congrats, you went from being anti-genocide to pro-genocide in a couple of paragraphs.

The innocent civilians you're excusing death and destruction of are largely children who obviously have no chance of fighting back against Hamas.

Surely, your father would be proud that you're backing the destruction of innocent people.

Truly remarkable stuff.

They should have earned their safety by being born somewhere else to different parents

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Empathy is dead

I'd post a pic of Republican Jesus but rocky and topper would give me a vacation.

[JWags85]

Lots of people have answered your questions, Muggs.  Our "obsession" is about our identification and connection with Israel. Some of us are more focused on the tangible political and economic connections, some on our professed shared values, hell some maybe even based on our shared Judeo-Christian history.  At the end of the day, we care because when Israel acts like the bad guys, it hurts our cause, however narrowly or broadly we define that.

I had started a post about this the other day and got sidetracked.  This discussion has gotten wild and absurd, but unless I'm mistaken, everyone in here supports Israel's right to exist and if a post-Bibi, non Likud dominated Israeli government ceased hostilities and aggression and worked toward a sustainable coexistence with the Palestinians, most of the negativity toward Israel as a state/entity would evaporate and dissipate.

While nowhere near Muggsy's stance, I'm probably more sympathetic/favorable to Israel than most here.  But my thing is, in the land of extremes, my frustations lie between the "ISRAEL IS THE NEW NAZIS WITH THIS GENOCIDE" and "RELEASE THE HOSTAGES, ALL PALESTINIANS ARE HAMAS". 

I don't want to argue the definitions or semantics of "genocide", but even if you want to contend its not a genocide and more the ugly business of war, my issue with Israel is they have no semblance of a plan anymore, IMO.  I don't think they (outside of some boisterous dopes in Likud) want to completely eradicate Gazans and turn it into an Israel resort destination, but I don't know what they are trying to accomplish anymore either.  And equally as bad, they have completely given up or abandoned any source of positive optics.  It doesn't have to be selecting "Israel Good Hamas Bad" or vice versa, both groups are guilty of heinous crap over the last year, but Israel as the more powerful and more responsible party, has allowed whatever Hamas narratives they want to run wild with their recklessness in this campaign.  Hamas and their PR arm live in plausible deniability and Israel doesn't.  As I said in my post replying to earlier to Jesu, Hamas has shot plenty of Palestinians, but because of a variety of factors and sloppy nonsense, the burden of proof is firmly on the IDF.  And every time they do something, malicious, accidental, as CYA, or otherwise to "non combatants", they take 5 steps backwards and automatically assume all blame for anything until explicitly proven otherwise...in a situation where explicit proof is hard to come by.

Back to my first paragraph in the post, outside of actual born Palestinian activists or commentators, I'm so baffled by the "the only way to solve/end this is must be the dismantling/dissolution of Israel as a state/nation" viewpoint as anything other than an overly emotional and fanciful ideological stance or argument.  I've seen a disturbing amount of posts/blogs/articles by Middle East experts or supposed geopolitical commentators calling for this and it seems so detached from reality or factual analysis.  People make comparisons to apartheid South Africa and the success there.  But the ANC was seeking equal rights and treatment and an end to state sponsored discrimination, not the destruction of South Africa the country (not to mention it was done on behalf of majority population against an empowered minority).  Same with other colonial rebellions, the majority population pushing back on an empowered minority, who also had a place of origin be it France, England, Portugal where the power sat, to depart to.

This would be a minority, demanding that their opposition who is both larger in number and infinitely more powerful, be disbanded and cease to exist.  Like instead of Quebec just pushing for independence, demanding that Canada be destroyed and dissolved so Quebec can stretch from sea to sea.  And of course, the only way that could ever happen was convincing the world to forcefully come and make Israel, militarily.  It sounds good in when screeching about the "settler colonialist project" but its just nonsensical, and like other things, just muddles and deflects from more realistic paths forward.

[Scoop Snoop]

With thinking like this the Nazis would still be running Germany and most of Europe. The Japanese warlords would control large swaths of the Asian Pacific.

As you can tell after October 7 I have lost all sympathy for the Gazans and "Palestinians".

Comparing the importance of defeating Germany and Japan in WWII to the current war in the Mideast makes no sense to me at all. Hamas has no massive, highly equipped army with tanks and advanced weaponry like Germany had that easily overran Europe, no battleships or submarines, no air force with thousands of planes. Hamas is a threat to Israel, not the entire world. A better analogy-but far from a great one as we did not share a border-would be Vietnam where we fought a guerilla war as well as a conventional one.

Hamas is severely weakened but will not lack for recruits among young males with a fierce hatred of Israel to rebuild their ranks. There will be new tunnels, new ways to attack. I wonder if there is widespread support for Hamas among Gazans, but Israel's campaign of suppression may shift Gazans towards accepting Hamas as their best bet to stop Israeli attacks.