Will we ever be happy?

[Pakuni]

What in our entire basketball history outside of Al gives us the right to expect the last four years to be the floor? I've made it easy for you and put a summary of MUBB history in my signature

Marquette has everything it needs - including the coach - to create a program like Few has at Gonzaga or Wright did at Nova or John Thompson did at Georgetown.
Is that realistic? Maybe not. Should we aspire to it? Absolutely.
Nothing wrong with what Shaka's done the past four years - it's been mostly great, minus tourney flameouts - but I don't think the expectations need to capped by recent history.

[Galway Eagle]

Marquette has everything it needs - including the coach - to create a program like Few has at Gonzaga or Wright did at Nova or John Thompson did at Georgetown.
Is that realistic? Maybe not. Should we aspire to it? Absolutely.
Nothing wrong with what Shaka's done the past four years - it's been mostly great, minus tourney flameouts - but I don't think the expectations need to capped by recent history.

By this logic every program out there with zero precedent should have these unreasonable expectations.

Prior to 1955 should we have expected to be in the tournament every year? No, we hadn't made it before so when that happened the reach goal was make it every year but the benchmark would've been unreasonable.

Right now, there's no precedent for saying the last four years should be our floor we hadn't won the big east tournament before, we hadn't been a 2 seed before, and we've had 5 second weekend appearances since 2000. Spend another four or so consistently making the second weekend and you can say the benchmark has changed, spend another few years being a 2 seed or higher and you can say that's the new floor. Yes few wright Thompson Al etc can and should be the goal and I hope we get there but the past four years most certainly can't be reasonably called our floor unless we're saying that we've always been below our floor (including 02-13)

[Pakuni]

By this logic every program out there with zero precedent should have these unreasonable expectations.

By this logic, Marquette is just like any program with zero precedent.

Regardless, I wasn't talking a floor (setting expectations for a floor is pretty COLE), I was talking about expectations for a ceiling.
Again, we're not slaves to our history. The fact Marquette hasn't been a Gonzaga-like program the past 20 years doesn't mean the program shouldn't aspire to it, or that such aspirations are unrealistic. Aspiring to be what you've been is not so aspirational.

[Galway Eagle]

By this logic, Marquette is just like any program with zero precedent.

No really, let's take Kansas, they've been to every tournament in the 2000s, all but three they've won a game. That's a reasonable floor expectation. These programs set a precedent by achieving something year in and year out. During those 24 tournaments they've been lower than a 4 seed twice. It's a reasonable set expectation for their floor to be a 4 seed that wins a game.

Regardless, I wasn't talking a floor (setting expectations for a floor is pretty COLE),

 you quoted a response i had to a poster talking about the floor seen below. You'll forgive my confusion there. Additionally talking about a floor is absolutely not COLE. In any analysis you compare against a benchmark, determined by prior success. I work in marketing analytics, if my regional fast food chain said they wanted a 40% conversion rate or better on a campaign when we've only ever seen 20% that'd be absurd, there's no precedent for that expectation. Similar to MU fans thinking an 9, 2 (double champs) 2 (S16), 7 should be the floor. We don't have enough stretches like that to consider that the floor. It's an unreasonable minimum expectation.

Tower, come on. 23 wins, 18 wins...or whatever...it's about ncaa tournament wins. NCAA TOURNAMENT WINS, please. These past four years should be Marquette's floor. Do you claim the COLE acronym?

I was talking about expectations for a ceiling.
Again, we're not slaves to our history. The fact Marquette hasn't been a Gonzaga-like program the past 20 years doesn't mean the program shouldn't aspire to it, or that such aspirations are unrealistic. Aspiring to be what you've been is not so aspirational.

This is where we agree when I comes to ceiling. A reach goal is absolutely reasonable especially with a comparable school's success. It sounds like we MU's communicated because I was responding to vipers call out about minimum expectations and you replied with reach goals.

[HowardsWorld]

I think you can be happy and disappointed in the same breathe. I don't think anyone here is unhappy with the turnaround from where we were 5 years ago with Wojo. Like I had mentioned in a different thread.

 I am disappointed that we had 4 NBA players on the roster at the same time and lost to Michigan state when we had a clear path to the championship game. I am disappointed we had 3 NBA players on the roster and could only make the sweet 16 when we had a clear path to the final 4.

[Viper]

Do you realize more regular season wins will eventually help lead to more tourney wins?

are you thinking more regular season wins leads to a higher tourney seeding thus a potential easier path, hence more tourney wins? Maybe so.
My point is, we need to start winning ncaa games. Shaka has won 3. A solid floor. Making the S16 last year was great. More of that. I guess I bring an optimism from a career in sales. Think big. Figure out how to get past the roadblocks. Game plan to win not 'hope' to win. Gonzaga, as Pakuni referred , comes to my mind often in these discussions...a program in small market Spokane wins a lot more than Marquette does in the postseason. Yeah, the BE is far superior to the WCC, but if it's all relative, we should be able to recruit to get tourney wins as they have. Obviously Few is better than Wojo, so they've had a solid foundation. But at this point, I just feel like these past 4 seasons should be the floor, the step to bigger. Admittedly, maybe I'm missing something or overly optimistic.

[Viper]

Marquette has everything it needs - including the coach - to create a program like Few has at Gonzaga or Wright did at Nova or John Thompson did at Georgetown.
Is that realistic? Maybe not. Should we aspire to it? Absolutely.
Nothing wrong with what Shaka's done the past four years - it's been mostly great, minus tourney flameouts - but I don't think the expectations need to capped by recent history.

yes, what you are saying, Pak. I agree

[Viper]

I think you can be happy and disappointed in the same breathe. I don't think anyone here is unhappy with the turnaround from where we were 5 years ago with Wojo. Like I had mentioned in a different thread.

 I am disappointed that we had 4 NBA players on the roster at the same time and lost to Michigan state when we had a clear path to the championship game. I am disappointed we had 3 NBA players on the roster and could only make the sweet 16 when we had a clear path to the final 4.

yes

[MuggsyB]

He doesn't realize sh1t.  He would have fired Jay Wright before he ever won anything...

Mugsy wants better players asap (hot take).

BC Hoopster thinks Shaka red shirted an impact big (for what reason?)...and called for a walk-on to impact a game for us this year (Shaka messed that up as well).

This board is nuts.  Bill Self had a hell of a year.  Pitino flamed out to a coach that hadn't had NCAA success at Kentucky for years.  UNC shouldn't have been in the tourney.  UW's at home.  UCONN can't win without Clinghan.  Baylor hasn't done sh1t lately.  The entire Big 10 hasn't won a championship in 25 years.  Sean Miller won a flippin' play-in game and he's bolting the BEAST for Texas. 

Shaka chooses to stay, wins at a level rarely seen at MU, and does so with class and kids who are loyal to MU.  The only thing I have to say is "Thank You" to Shaka, Kam, Stevie and Jop.  I love watching MU ball again, and I we couldn't ask for better coach.  Thankful he chooses to coach at MU.

In my defense Avid, I always want better players and for them to dominate ruthlessly with zero mercy.  I feel like we've missed a tremendous opportunity the last three years in the dance.  Especially 2023 and 2024.  I also believe strongly that we should be able to get a lights out sniper, a power big, along with a badass/switchable 4.  Patience isn't my strong point but I think it's fine to have a sense of urgency. 

[jesmu84]

Your problem isn't lack of patience.

It's lack of living in reality

[MuggsyB]

Your problem isn't lack of patience.

It's lack of living in reality

That's not true at all. I have high expectations and believe we can be elite. 

[Viper]

Your problem isn't lack of patience.

It's lack of living in reality

not realistic? Why? Marquette can't get the kind of talent to win ncaat games(plural)? If that is what you are implying, aren't you short selling MU?  What doesn't Marquette have (unless it's NIL) to get the kind of talent needed to make deep tournament runs? Those last 4 or 5 yrs Jay Wright had at 'nova. Not realistic for MU? What am I missing?

[MU82]

This board is nuts.  Bill Self had a hell of a year.  Pitino flamed out to a coach that hadn't had NCAA success at Kentucky for years.  UNC shouldn't have been in the tourney.  UW's at home.  UCONN can't win without Clinghan.  Baylor hasn't done sh1t lately.  The entire Big 10 hasn't won a championship in 25 years.  Sean Miller won a flippin' play-in game and he's bolting the BEAST for Texas. 

Shaka chooses to stay, wins at a level rarely seen at MU, and does so with class and kids who are loyal to MU.  The only thing I have to say is "Thank You" to Shaka, Kam, Stevie and Jop.  I love watching MU ball again, and I we couldn't ask for better coach.  Thankful he chooses to coach at MU.

All true.

In one of the many transfer portal discussions, a Scooper mentioned Greg Gard as an example of a coach who achieved success using the portal. Well, Gard has won 3 NCAAT games in his last 8 years, including 1 total these last two seasons when he went to the portal for a star player to save him. The same Scooper, in thread after thread, has been criticizing Shaka's poor NCAAT results as Marquette's coach. That's a real interesting combination of takes.

As we all know, Shaka has won 3 NCAAT games in 4 years as MU coach. Every Scooper wishes there had been a heck of a lot more wins, and we're disappointed there weren't.

Nevertheless, over that span, Shaka has as many NCAAT wins as (or more than) ...

Greg Gard
Rick & Richard Pitino - combined
John Calipari (even with his 2 wins this year)
Kevin Willard (even with his 2 wins this year)
Buzz Williams
Porter Moser
Dana Altman
Sean Miller
Tony Bennett and Ron Sanchez and Ryan Odom - combined
Dennis Gates
Randy Bennett

Most of those guys have used the portal quite a bit, a few have used it a ton. Rick Pitino has been lauded here as an example of what today's coaches need to do to win ... but many of those same Scoopers have said that an early NCAAT exit means a season is a "failure." So which is it for Pitino, who was embarrassed by 10-seed last week and has won a grand total of 1 NCAAT game in 5 years?

I have criticized Shaka when I've felt it's been warranted, including his time-out strategy and our too-often inability to inbound the basketball. Each of the last two seasons, I wished he used the transfer portal to get a rotation big who could get some rebounds, block shots and commit hard fouls. In other words, I hardly think Shaka is infallible or beyond criticism - no coach is.

I also think it does no good to defend him by saying he's done better than Wojo. I would sure as hell hope so!

But to rip him constantly, to act as if he's done anything but help our program significantly, to act as if he and his assistants haven't been instrumental in the development of some really good players, to say he has "failed," to even suggest he should be fired as a few (thankfully very few) have ... it's all so ridiculous.

Shaka hasn't been perfect - in other words, he's no Greg Gard. But he's been a heck of a coach and program-builder, and he has earned my admiration, respect and trust.

[Scoop Snoop]

That's not true at all. Oh yes it is!  I have high expectations fantasies and believe we can be elite if I am in charge. 

FIFY.

So your unhinged rant in post #3 in this thread followed up by "It's a moral imperative"    and, when asked how many ballers you wanted for next year, you replied 4- all this is rational?

Perhaps a contingent of scoopers should address the team. And Shaka, of course. 

[MuggsyB]

FIFY.

So your unhinged rant in post #3 in this thread followed up by "It's a moral imperative"    and, when asked how many ballers you wanted for next year, you replied 4- all this is rational?

Perhaps a contingent of scoopers should address the team. And Shaka, of course. 

You struggle greatly with reading between the lines and why I emphasize certain things.  Our expectations should be sky high for the MU hoops program moving forward.  If you believe otherwise you're the one who isn't rational. 

[rocky_warrior]

All true.

Similar to FF, AI condensed that to:  A critic praised Gard's portal success while condemning Shaka's, despite Shaka's superior recent NCAA tournament record compared to many portal-using coaches.

[jesmu84]

not realistic? Why? Marquette can't get the kind of talent to win ncaat games(plural)? If that is what you are implying, aren't you short selling MU?  What doesn't Marquette have (unless it's NIL) to get the kind of talent needed to make deep tournament runs? Those last 4 or 5 yrs Jay Wright had at 'nova. Not realistic for MU? What am I missing?

Bruh. Have you read Muggsy's posts around here? And I don't just mean in the last week regarding our team. I'm talking generally his entire post history.

Living in reality is not his strong suit.

Optimistic and passionate though? Sure.

[willie warrior]

In my defense Avid, I always want better players and for them to dominate ruthlessly with zero mercy.  I feel like we've missed a tremendous opportunity the last three years in the dance.  Especially 2023 and 2024.  I also believe strongly that we should be able to get a lights out sniper, a power big, along with a badass/switchable 4.  Patience isn't my strong point but I think it's fine to have a sense of urgency. 

We have been patient and Shaka did well up to this year. We need more of those players mentioned, but we don't have them, and that is on Shaka. Which contributed directly to this year's flameout. And sadly, next year looks even less than this year. One has to question about the direction since those past years.

[Hards Alumni]

What some of you guys don't seem to understand is that sometimes, despite talent you just lose.  Last year we were a two seed and we lost in the sweet 16 because we shot 4/31 from 3.  That isn't Shaka's fault.  That isn't 'recruiting' or 'portal' or whatever foolishness the "blame du jour" is.

Sometimes you can have really really good players and still lose a game.  That's called reality.  There will never be a guaranteed win because Marquette has a "lights out sniper, a power big, along with a badass/switchable 4".  Those type of players are in high demand for every program anyway, and even then you cannot guarantee perfect play every game.

Sometimes humans are human and have bad games.  And in a lose one game and you're out scenario one bad game is the end of the season.  It's why it is exciting and why we watch.

[MuggsyB]

What some of you guys don't seem to understand is that sometimes, despite talent you just lose.  Last year we were a two seed and we lost in the sweet 16 because we shot 4/31 from 3.  That isn't Shaka's fault.  That isn't 'recruiting' or 'portal' or whatever foolishness the "blame du jour" is.

Sometimes you can have really really good players and still lose a game.  That's called reality.  There will never be a guaranteed win because Marquette has a "lights out sniper, a power big, along with a badass/switchable 4".  Those type of players are in high demand for every program anyway, and even then you cannot guarantee perfect play every game.

Sometimes humans are human and have bad games.  And in a lose one game and you're out scenario one bad game is the end of the season.  It's why it is exciting and why we watch.

That's correct Hands and a good point.  There are no guarantees.  However, if you add these types of players to the roster, your margin for error changes. Your chances for a deep run increases exponentially.  The first goal is a top 4 protected seed.  Next is a deep run and ultimately subjugation of those in our path to a natty.  If you ask Shaka this is the goal of MU hoops. 

[tower912]

Yes, victory is one of Shaka's pillars.  And, in his estimation, it flows from relationships and growth.

[Hards Alumni]

However, if you add these types of players to the roster, your margin for error changes.

Sure, but there are only so many of these guys on the planet and getting them is easier said than done.  There is only so much money, and so much playing time, not to mention the desire of every player to be the GUY.  Competition for great players is always high.

The first goal is a top 4 protected seed.  Next is a deep run and ultimately subjugation of those in our path to a natty.  If you ask Shaka this is the goal of MU hoops. 

Yep, totally agree.  But after that there is no guarantee of success.  The best team doesn't always win the tournament.

[MuggsyB]

Sure, but there are only so many of these guys on the planet and getting them is easier said than done.  There is only so much money, and so much playing time, not to mention the desire of every player to be the GUY.  Competition for great players is always high.


Yep, totally agree.  But after that there is no guarantee of success.  The best team doesn't always win the tournament.

Agreed.  I also think while this tournament has been chalky, that doesn't mean Cinderella is dead moving forward. 

[MU82]

What some of you guys don't seem to understand is that sometimes, despite talent you just lose.  Last year we were a two seed and we lost in the sweet 16 because we shot 4/31 from 3.  That isn't Shaka's fault.  That isn't 'recruiting' or 'portal' or whatever foolishness the "blame du jour" is.

Sometimes you can have really really good players and still lose a game.  That's called reality.  There will never be a guaranteed win because Marquette has a "lights out sniper, a power big, along with a badass/switchable 4".  Those type of players are in high demand for every program anyway, and even then you cannot guarantee perfect play every game.

Sometimes humans are human and have bad games.  And in a lose one game and you're out scenario one bad game is the end of the season.  It's why it is exciting and why we watch.

Yep.

A Hall of Fame coach whom lots of folks were falling all over themselves to praise for his awesome use of the transfer portal just got humiliated by a 10-seed coached by a rival he hates. He even benched his #1 portal stud for the final 5 minutes for playing like sh!t and pouting.

That doesn't mean transfers are bad or the guy suddenly forgot how to coach or any other "trend." It just means sh!t happens even to great coaches, highly regarded teams and star players.

[Pakuni]

What some of you guys don't seem to understand is that sometimes, despite talent you just lose.  Last year we were a two seed and we lost in the sweet 16 because we shot 4/31 from 3.  That isn't Shaka's fault.  That isn't 'recruiting' or 'portal' or whatever foolishness the "blame du jour" is.

You're not entirely wrong. These things can and do occur with any team or coach. The questions arise when these things keep happening to the same team or coach.
Getting upset by a double digit seed happens to every coach once in a while. Getting upset by a double digit seed three times in five years is a little harder to write off as bad luck.