Will we ever be happy?

[Its DJOver]

Question for Tower, if we have a 21 win season next year, are you going to be saying 100 wins over 4 seasons or are you going to be saying 119 wins over 5 season?

No right/wrong answer, just curious.

[tower912]

Pakuni, Point Warrior, do you want Shaka fired?  Do you think he is not the long term answer?  If so, say it, spell it out in small words for us dumb scoopers, and own it.

[tower912]

Question for Tower, if we have a 21 win season next year, are you going to be saying 100 wins over 4 seasons or are you going to be saying 119 wins over 5 season?

No right/wrong answer, just curious.

Both would be accurate.  And both would be acceptable to me.

[Pakuni]

A trend of making the tourney every year?

A trend of winning a game half the time?

A trend of S16 1/4 of the time?

I'm not understanding the point you're trying to make.

Yeah, you know exactly the point I'm making.
If you're happy with MU's tournament experience the past four years, that's OK. If Shaka's tournament history post-2011 is of no concern to you, that's totally fine. Fan however you want to fan.
But those wanting better tournament results or not liking the trend aren't wrong. 

Richard Pitino's name is being thrown around for the Nova job, should they disqualify him because 5 years ago he was 14-15 at Minnesota?

Yes, if I were a Nova fan, I would be very hesitant about hiring Richard Pitino given what happened at Minnesota. If Shaka were to leave tomorrow, would Richard be at the top of your replacement list, or might you have reservations about how things ended at his previous high-major gig?

[tower912]

Yeah, you know exactly the point I'm making.
If you're happy with MU's tournament experience the past four years, that's OK. If Shaka's tournament history post-2011 is of no concern to you, that's totally fine. Fan however you want to fan.
But those wanting better tournament results or not liking the trend aren't wrong. 

Yes, if I were a Nova fan, I would be very hesitant about hiring Richard Pitino given what happened at Minnesota. If Shaka were to leave tomorrow, would Richard be at the top of your replacement list, or might you have reservations about how things ended at his previous high-major gig?

I would take Pition Jr. Over the other candidates still out there.  The really good ones are already gone.  So, if it were a choice between Richard and, say, Wardle, I would take Jr.

[Its DJOver]

Yeah, you know exactly the point I'm making.
If you're happy with MU's tournament experience the past four years, that's OK. If Shaka's tournament history post-2011 is of no concern to you, that's totally fine. Fan however you want to fan.
But those wanting better tournament results or not liking the trend aren't wrong. 

Yes, if I were a Nova fan, I would be very hesitant about hiring Richard Pitino given what happened at Minnesota. If Shaka were to leave tomorrow, would Richard be at the top of your replacement list, or might you have reservations about how things ended at his previous high-major gig?

I honestly don't understand the point you're trying to make, I'm not intentionally being as @ss.  If there are 4 years of data for Shaka at MU, why would you not just look at that instead of throwing in one year at Texas. 

It would make more sense to me to either just look at MU, just look at Texas, or look at both of them together in their entirety. It just seems very overly cherry picked which is not normally your MO.

If you're concerned about Shaka or not convinced by him, that's fine, I'm just baffled by the fact that you needed to look at pre-MU data in order to get there.

[BM1090]

I honestly don't understand the point you're trying to make, I'm not intentionally being as @ss.  If there are 4 years of data for Shaka at MU, why would you not just look at that instead of throwing in one year at Texas. 

It would make more sense to me to either just look at MU, just look at Texas, or look at both of them together in their entirety. It just seems very overly cherry picked which is not normally your MO.

If you're concerned about Shaka or not convinced by him, that's fine, I'm just baffled by the fact that you needed to look at pre-MU data in order to get there.

Especially because his entire philosophy at Texas was different than it is at MU.

I'm a bit concerned about the lack of march success, but not terribly so. 2023 was overperformance to a ridiculous extent. It hurts because they were in the game, but rewatch that and MSU hit some tough ass shots. Made big plays. MU battled back from 15 down. Just couldn't close it.

2024 was a weird game that we probably win 8/10 times.

This year's team just wasn't good enough. As long as the norm is 2023/24 (in team construction, not seeding) then I'm not worried. If the norm is this year, then our ceiling is probably capped and I will start to get concerned. Time will tell.

[Pakuni]

I honestly don't understand the point you're trying to make, I'm not intentionally being as @ss.  If there are 4 years of data for Shaka at MU, why would you not just look at that instead of throwing in one year at Texas. 

Because Shaka didn't morph into a different person when he left Austin and I thought five years was a fair number to identify a trend.
If you'd prefer 10 or his entire Texas tenure, that's OK. The trend doesn't get better. Shaka made the tournament two other times at Texas and his team didn't win a game in either, losing to 11 and 7 seeds, respectively.
So, between Texas and Marquette, Shaka has seven tournament appearances. Those have led to:
Three wins - twice over 15 seeds, once over a (underseeded, IMO) 10 seed
Seven losses - to two 7 seeds, an 8 seed, a 10 seed, two 11 seeds and a 14 seed.

If you're concerned about Shaka or not convinced by him, that's fine, I'm just baffled by the fact that you needed to look at pre-MU data in order to get there.

I've said several times I think Shaka has done a great job overall. But his tournament results to date are lacking. I don't see that as a controversial thing to say and I honestly don't understand why me making that objectively true statement bothers people here so much.

[BrewCity83]

Someone earlier (MU82 maybe?) pointed out that Greg "Just-Gets-It-Done" Gard has won exactly 3 NCAA tournament games--total--in the LAST EIGHT YEARS, and hasn't gone to the Sweet 16 since eight years ago, yet nobody is calling for his head.  He's being talked about as a coach of the year candidate.  Look at everyone's Hall of Famer Rick Pitino's recent NCAAT results too.

Not saying that anyone is calling for Shaka's head, just trying to add perspective to the discussion.

[BM1090]

Because Shaka didn't morph into a different person when he left Austin and I thought five years was a fair number to identify a trend.
If you'd prefer 10 or his entire Texas tenure, that's OK. The trend doesn't get better. Shaka made the tournament two other times at Texas and his team didn't win a game in either, losing to 11 and 7 seeds, respectively.
So, between Texas and Marquette, Shaka has seven tournament appearances. Those have led to:
Three wins - twice over 15 seeds, once over a (underseeded, IMO) 10 seed
Seven losses - to two 7 seeds, an 8 seed, a 10 seed, two 11 seeds and a 14 seed.

I've said several times I think Shaka has done a great job overall. But his tournament results to date are lacking. I don't see that as a controversial thing to say and I honestly don't understand why me making that objectively true statement bothers people here so much.

Sure. But his results at TX were 6 years, 0 tournament wins. The results at MU (3 wins in 4 years) are significantly better. And he did change his philosophy completely, so I think it's worth noting that his results have been a lot better here both in the regular season and the tournament.

Does he need to get better in the tournament? Absolutely. But you could easily make a case he's trending upwards doing things his way at MU.

[Its DJOver]

Because Shaka didn't morph into a different person when he left Austin and I thought five years was a fair number to identify a trend.
If you'd prefer 10 or his entire Texas tenure, that's OK. The trend doesn't get better. Shaka made the tournament two other times at Texas and his team didn't win a game in either, losing to 11 and 7 seeds, respectively.
So, between Texas and Marquette, Shaka has seven tournament appearances. Those have led to:
Three wins - twice over 15 seeds, once over a (underseeded, IMO) 10 seed
Seven losses - to two 7 seeds, an 8 seed, a 10 seed, two 11 seeds and a 14 seed.

I've said several times I think Shaka has done a great job overall. But his tournament results to date are lacking. I don't see that as a controversial thing to say and I honestly don't understand why me making that objectively true statement bothers people here so much.

As was pointed out above, his philosophy changed dramatically once he got here. I wouldn't judge him based on his Texas days or his VCU days, he has a large enough sample size at MU to judge him on that and not cherry pick other data.

He's 3-4 with a 100% appearance rate and 1 S16 in 4 years. I certainly don't think that's "lifetime extension" worthy like has been brought up previously, but I'm not overly concerned. I'd even give him a pass if we don't make it next year (although I expect us to). You maintain an appearance rate over 80% and throw in at least one second weekend per recruiting cycle with a shot to go even further, and I'm not sure we can realistically ask for much more.

[Galway Eagle]

Because Shaka didn't morph into a different person when he left Austin

No but his entire recruiting strategy shifted back to closer to VCU. It'd be a better point to use VCU and MU together as they're more similar strategies. Unless you know about a bunch of 5 star sure top prospects that have been coming through MU's door that I dont

[MUDPT]

I'm curious how this thread would go if their KP luck factor was around 150 instead of 242...

[BM1090]

I'm curious how this thread would go if their KP luck factor was around 150 instead of 242...

I do think the luck factor matters. Some years team just get unlucky. It didn't feel like that this year with MU. We struggled to close games all year. Even the ones that we won. That'll bring the luck factor down.

[tower912]

Actually, as many others have said, Shaka did change his recruiting philosophy when he came to MU.  He has also evolved away from the VCU havoc-style defense. He only had Nevada for his final season at Texas and his role was different, so I am not sure how much of his offense was implemented.  Finally, Shaka went all in on culture upon his arrival.


Other than that, though, Pakuni, I agree with you. Same guy.

[Pakuni]

I'm curious how this thread would go if their KP luck factor was around 150 instead of 242...

Duke -.020 (236th)
Marquette -.021 (242nd)
Illinois - .022 (248th)
UConn - .027 (255th)
Maryland -.027 (257th)
Texas Tech -.036 (261st)
Arizona -.039 (280th)
Wisconsin -.047 (294th)
Iowa State -.508 (308th)
Gonzaga  -.082 (346th)

[Pakuni]

No but his entire recruiting strategy shifted back to closer to VCU. It'd be a better point to use VCU and MU together as they're more similar strategies. Unless you know about a bunch of 5 star sure top prospects that have been coming through MU's door that I dont

Not sure what you're trying to say here.
Shaka not recruiting good enough players to win in March?

[Pakuni]

Pakuni, Point Warrior, do you want Shaka fired?  Do you think he is not rhe long term answer?  If so, say it, spell it out in small words for us dumb scoopers, and own it.

Are you kidding right now?

[tower912]

No.

[Pakuni]

No.

I left some clues in this thread.
Like when I wrote:

"It's OK to acknowledge that Shaka didn't do his best work this year. He admitted as much himself. Doesn't mean you want him fired (I don't)."

or

"Marquette has everything it needs - including the coach - to create a program like Few has at Gonzaga or Wright did at Nova or John Thompson did at Georgetown."

or

"The overall body of Shaka's work at MU has been terrific. I don't think his seat is anything but ice cold, nor should it be."

or

"I've said several times I think Shaka has done a great job overall."

Thought all those were pretty clear.

[tower912]

Cool. 

[MU82]

Cool. 

Yeah, Pakuni has clearly said he supports Shaka even though he isn't satisfied with the March results and with some of the roster construction.

Point Warrior has found his schtick - call anybody who isn't going berserk about Shaka's abject failure part of the "CoS."

It doesn't matter if you have occasionally criticized Shaka when warranted or if you have repeatedly said you were disappointed in the way this year finished. As the leader of the Hate on Shaka Cult, he considers you part of the CoS.

He hasn't really said what he expects or whether he'll quit being a Marquette fan if his expectations aren't met. That's not part of his HoSC schtick.

[Scoop Snoop]

Yeah, Pakuni has clearly said he supports Shaka even though he isn't satisfied with the March results and with some of the roster construction.

Point Warrior has found his schtick - call anybody who isn't going berserk about Shaka's abject failure part of the "CoS."

It doesn't matter if you have occasionally criticized Shaka when warranted or if you have repeatedly said you were disappointed in the way this year finished. As the leader of the Hate on Shaka Cult, he considers you part of the CoS.

He hasn't really said what he expects or whether he'll quit being a Marquette fan if his expectations aren't met. That's not part of his HoSC schtick.

Hey, at least he did not start the "Grace Period is over" thread (GB Warrior). 

Kudos to 1SE for coining C of S. He had a rough one game season (has made it clear it is ALL about the tourney) finishing 0-1.

[tower912]

Shaka-resistant?

[MuggsyB]

I get that I'm not the poster child for relaxing, but everyone needs to calm the H down.