IDF targets and kills food aid workers

[lawdog77]

Like forgetful, I respect what you have to say on this difficult situation. But I do think you might be guilty of some false equivalence here. Only one side acted horrifically on Oct. 7, setting everything else in motion.

Sure, you can say that Israel did some bad things before then, and I'd agree. And I could say that Hamas and similar bad actors have been doing their thing - and not only to Israel - for decades and decades and decades, and I think you'd agree.

Again, I have no solution, and I haven't seen a viable solution from anyone else here, or from any of the politicians, diplomats or bureaucrats. Which is why it's been a quadmire forever.

Seconded

[Pakuni]

Like forgetful, I respect what you have to say on this difficult situation. But I do think you might be guilty of some false equivalence here. Only one side acted horrifically on Oct. 7, setting everything else in motion.

Do you honestly believe all this was set in motion Oct. 7?

[Pakuni]

You wrote not defending Hamas, BUT---. So you are defending Hamas's request to release dead and alive  hostages because you think its their only bargaining chip. It's not. Hamas still has Israeli soldiers and reservists, as well as a peace accord if Israel dies not follow through (which will be backed by the UN)

This is a bad faith argument.

So shoudl Hamas be required to immediately release the hostages once an agreement is released, or not?

Hamas should release the hostages immediately with or without an agreement.
You're conflating - intentionally, I suspect (see: bad faith argument) - what I personally believe is right with what is strategically logical for Hamas. I don't support what Hamas is doing, but only the truly naive would be surprised by it.

There are not 900 women and children being held. Al Jazeera says 210 (still alot). Hamas wants 30 back for every 1 hostage. So basically in 2 weeks all of the women and children are returned, but the hostages are still there. After the women and chidren, Hamas wants additional prisoners released in Phase One. 

Could I see that Al Jazeera story?

[Hards Alumni]

Like forgetful, I respect what you have to say on this difficult situation. But I do think you might be guilty of some false equivalence here. Only one side acted horrifically on Oct. 7, setting everything else in motion.

Sure, you can say that Israel did some bad things before then, and I'd agree. And I could say that Hamas and similar bad actors have been doing their thing - and not only to Israel - for decades and decades and decades, and I think you'd agree.

Again, I have no solution, and I haven't seen a viable solution from anyone else here, or from any of the politicians, diplomats or bureaucrats. Which is why it's been a quadmire forever.

I assure you, I am not creating a false equivalence.  As you've mentioned, this conflict didn't start on 10/7, but it was escalated that day with a terrible attack aimed at civilians.

I'm saying both sides are bad actors.  They've both killed civilians.  There will never be an equivalence, but there are a few too many people... especially older Americans, who seem to excuse everything Israel does as, "Well that's just war".  If the war is/was justifiable, that position becomes harder to defend every day.  Tens of thousands of civilians have been murdered by the Israeli government at this point, and if Rafah is fully invaded that number will increase significantly.  What happens then?  I promise you, another excuse will be made for further military action... and it will continue and continue as long as the Israeli citizen's allow it to happen.  Just like the American citizenry allowed the Iraq and Afghanistan wars to become forever wars.  The US needs to stop sending Israel bombs and weapons and reduce aid.  They don't need our money to destroy Hamas.  They have the 11th highest GDP per capita in the world.   

The war, at this point, is just Bibi's attempt to hold on to power. 

[4everwarriors]

#fromtherivertotheseaandpalestinewillbefree, hey?


#neveragain

[21Jumpstreet]

Macklemore coming out spitting fire. Haven't really heard a popular artist take such a stance in support of Palestine. I'm sure I've missed some.  Making no comment on the content only my surprise that he put it out.

[Hards Alumni]

https://youtu.be/QvGkKKemIDk?t=143

This is exactly why Israel will continue to lose support worldwide for any further offensive.  Piers is by no means a lefty either.

[lawdog77]

This is a bad faith argument.


Hamas should release the hostages immediately with or without an agreement.
You're conflating - intentionally, I suspect (see: bad faith argument) - what I personally believe is right with what is strategically logical for Hamas. I don't support what Hamas is doing, but only the truly naive would be surprised by it.

Could I see that Al Jazeera story?

Wasn't a bad faith argument at all. When ones uses but, instead of AND, it is a defense.
Here's the Al Jazeera article: It's 280, not 210
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/17/palestinian-prisoners-day-how-many-palestinians-are-in-israeli-jails

It doesn't state what they are being held for. Again, my position is that an impartial third party organization (UN maybe) should look at those files

[MU82]

I assure you, I am not creating a false equivalence.  As you've mentioned, this conflict didn't start on 10/7, but it was escalated that day with a terrible attack aimed at civilians.

I'm saying both sides are bad actors.  They've both killed civilians.  There will never be an equivalence, but there are a few too many people... especially older Americans, who seem to excuse everything Israel does as, "Well that's just war".  If the war is/was justifiable, that position becomes harder to defend every day.  Tens of thousands of civilians have been murdered by the Israeli government at this point, and if Rafah is fully invaded that number will increase significantly.  What happens then?  I promise you, another excuse will be made for further military action... and it will continue and continue as long as the Israeli citizen's allow it to happen.  Just like the American citizenry allowed the Iraq and Afghanistan wars to become forever wars.  The US needs to stop sending Israel bombs and weapons and reduce aid.  They don't need our money to destroy Hamas.  They have the 11th highest GDP per capita in the world.   

The war, at this point, is just Bibi's attempt to hold on to power.

Thanks for your response. Once again, we agree on much but disagree on some key points.

[Pakuni]

Wasn't a bad faith argument at all. When ones uses but, instead of AND, it is a defense.
Here's the Al Jazeera article: It's 280, not 210
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/17/palestinian-prisoners-day-how-many-palestinians-are-in-israeli-jails

It doesn't state what they are being held for. Again, my position is that an impartial third party organization (UN maybe) should look at those files

Sorry, but when you suggest that anyone here is endorsing or supporting anything Hamas does, it's a bad faith argument. Some here are too dumb to know better. You don't strike me as one of them.

[forgetful]

Wasn't a bad faith argument at all. When ones uses but, instead of AND, it is a defense.
Here's the Al Jazeera article: It's 280, not 210
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/17/palestinian-prisoners-day-how-many-palestinians-are-in-israeli-jails

It doesn't state what they are being held for. Again, my position is that an impartial third party organization (UN maybe) should look at those files

Your article references 280 prisoners. Those are ones charged with crimes. It does not include women and children being held without any charges or without being accused of a crime. Those are held in Administrative detention.

80% of the individuals that Israel has agreed to consider releasing are those held in Administrative detention, without charge.

The UN says there are at least 615 women and children being held (400 of them children).

https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/g24/032/34/pdf/g2403234.pdf?token=gtiv5Dj2JvUE3WsDIG&fe=true

I don't think the real numbers are fully known, because aid groups have not been allowed access to these facilities. And I don't think any of those numbers include individuals taken by the IDF from Gaza.

[lawdog77]

Your article references 280 prisoners. Those are ones charged with crimes. It does not include women and children being held without any charges or without being accused of a crime. Those are held in Administrative detention.

80% of the individuals that Israel has agreed to consider releasing are those held in Administrative detention, without charge.

The UN says there are at least 615 women and children being held (400 of them children).

https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/g24/032/34/pdf/g2403234.pdf?token=gtiv5Dj2JvUE3WsDIG&fe=true

I don't think the real numbers are fully known, because aid groups have not been allowed access to these facilities. And I don't think any of those numbers include individuals taken by the IDF from Gaza.

This article  states 41 minor and 12 women administrative detainees

[forgetful]

This article  states 41 minor and 12 women administrative detainees

The source they cite is from the organization that wrote the UN document I linked, which says 400 children and 215 women are being held. Not sure what else to say, besides maybe Al Jazeera wrote a bad article.

**It looks like Al Jazeera just grabbed numbers off a graphic on the website of their source, not their actual written documents to the UN. Looks like sloppy journalism.

[jesmu84]

Any coincidence in the timing of:

-delay of US report on Israeli Gaza war conduct (and possible subsequent application of Leahy law)

-israel backing out of ceasefire agreement

-announcement of Rafah invasion

[lawdog77]

As far as I understand...

Ceasefire deal that stated Hamas releases all hostages and Israel stops the fighting.

Hamas agreed. Israel did not.

You dont understand. There are over 100 hostages. Phase 1 was only going to release the women, elderly, and sick/dead.

[Pakuni]

You dont understand. There are over 100 hostages. Phase 1 was only going to release the women, elderly, and sick/dead.

Jesmu84 didn't say anything about only Phase 1.
He is correct that the agreement calls for the release of all hostages.

[rocket surgeon]

Any coincidence in the timing of:

-delay of US report on Israeli Gaza war conduct (and possible subsequent application of Leahy law)

-israel backing out of ceasefire agreement

-announcement of Rafah invasion

  you forgot to add, weekend at bernie's withholding weapons to win an elect...I mean if they invade rafah...damn that sounds kinda familiar. 

   someone help me out here?


backing out of what ceasefire exactly?

[jesmu84]

You dont understand. There are over 100 hostages. Phase 1 was only going to release the women, elderly, and sick/dead.

Nm. Pakuni beat me to it

[MuggsyB]

  you forgot to add, weekend at bernie's withholding weapons to win an elect...I mean if they invade rafah...damn that sounds kinda familiar. 

   someone help me out here?



backing out of what ceasefire exactly?

Aren't these precision weapons 🚀?  That are designed to limit civilian casualties?  WTF???  As far as I know there are 4 large Hamas Battalions in Rafah. 

[rocket surgeon]

Aren't these precision weapons 🚀?  That are designed to limit civilian casualties?  WTF???  As far as I know there are 4 large Hamas Battalions in Rafah.

  if they have to rely on weekend to help them win a war to save their existence??  he couldn't even withdraw from one safely...God help us all. 

[Uncle Rico]

  if they have to rely on weekend to help them win a war to save their existence??  he couldn't even withdraw from one safely...God help us all.

5.5 out of 10

[lawdog77]

Nm. Pakuni beat me to it

Israel didn't agree to the length of time it would take to release these, as well as they were not informed some were dead. Also, there was no agreement to what sustainable calm was.

[rocket surgeon]

5.5 out of 10

what?  no bell curve??

so you think he's pretty good at withdrawing from wars? 

now we see weekend is pro hamas-this ain't good.  Israel has always been our best ally in middle east.  this kinda pushes us onto iran's side.  they gotta be loving all this.  now it makes sense why we dropped those pallets of cash into Iran in middle of the night

[Hards Alumni]

what?  no bell curve??

so you think he's pretty good at withdrawing from wars? 

now we see weekend is pro hamas-this ain't good.  Israel has always been our best ally in middle east.  this kinda pushes us onto iran's side.  they gotta be loving all this.  now it makes sense why we dropped those pallets of cash into Iran in middle of the night

I see the 5am misfire is right on schedule

[The Sultan]

I see the 5am misfire is right on schedule

Yeah he tends to be particularly unhinged first thing in the morning.

I'm not going to comment on why I think that's the case.