2023-2024 Season Grades

[GOO]

Rico, love it. But I think there are actual “fans” that would embrace that truth! 

[bilsu]

You are right there. But I feel very confident this team will struggle without Kolek next year. Hope they make the tourney but unless Shaka lands some studs from portal, they are likely one and done

I am assuming Kolek and Oso are gone, what I am worrying about is what happens with Kam Jones.
With Kam we are back to the Markus Howard year, where one guard dominates the ball and scores 25 points a game.
Without Kam we will be glad we did not kick DePaul out of the Big East.
Of course this will change, if we actually bring in contributing players from the portal, but I will believe that when I see it.

[wisblue]

I have a number of comments to the OP but I won't quote the whole thing and will break my comments into separate posts.

First, on the player grades, I don't have much to say as long as it's understood that they are based on expectations for the player instead of some absolute scale.

I agree with those who have said that the freshmen don't deserve a B, much less a B+. I would give them a C or an incomplete. Maybe they did what they were asked to do, but I don't know if their minimal playing time was based on not being given an opportunity or not showing in practice they they earned and deserved more time. Norman and Lowery both had their good moments, but didn't show enough to know if they will be able to take on the greatly increased roles that have to be filled by somebody next year.

[wisblue]

I also want to comment about the "injury bug" that was alluded to in the comments about Shaka.

Expectations for this year were sky high based on last year's performance and everyone but OMax returning. But, we have to recognize that last year's team had exceptionally good luck with injuries and that that was not likely to be repeated.

I am reminded of this when the graphic pops up on TV that Purdue has had the same starting lineup in every game this year. That can be taken as a sign of stability, but it's also a sign of improbable good fortune.

MU had this kind of good fortune last year when Kolek, Mitchell, Oso, Omax, and Kam Jones started all 36 games. On top of that, Joplin, Gold, and Ross appeared in all 36 games, and Sean Jones played in 33, missing a few with the wrist injury that eventually led to his offseason surgery.

I don't think you can overstate how valuable that kind of continuity can be. But, the story has been quite different this year. Only 1 player (Joplin) started all 37 games, and only one other (Gold) appeared in all 37. The team had many more injuries that caused players to miss games and/or play at less than full strength even more than the usual wear and tear of a long season.

Some specifics:

Gold- Even though he played in every game, the shin splints that caused him to miss the games on the foreign trip and drills through much of the preseason likely slowed whatever progress he might have made this year.

Mitchell- Missed 4 games (including the Big East opener at Providence with the hamstring injury and was hampered by the wrist and shoulder injuries later in the season.

Kam Jones- Missed 2 games completely with the ankle injury (counting the Seton Hall game where he tried to go but obviously couldn't) and played reduced minutes for a few games after. There were times when it was apparent that the ankle still bothered him.

Ross- Essentially missed 6 full games (including the one in which he was injured) with the shoulder injury and was hampered in other games with the flu and a lower leg injury that was never fully disclosed. I think those things all were factors in him not taking as big a step forward as we had hoped. He was inconsistent but came up huge several times.

Sean Jones- He has no luck except for bad. Seemed poised to take on a bigger role before his season ended.

Kolek- Fought back from the ankle sprain to have a huge game at Illinois and his oblique injury obviously affected the team in the 6  6 games before the NCAA, but they still won some tough ones without him.

Oso- Just missed the one game with the flu but he did have some injury issues coming out of the BET. We'll never know how much his puzzling play in the NCAA was affected by those physical issues.

Maybe none of these things affected the disappointing loss to NC State. But when you factor in all of these disruptions that affect rotations and roles, the team's overall performance looks more impressive.

[Goose]

I agree with Dr. B. Shaka had an outstanding year this year and was a steady hand at the wheel.

[wisblue]

Finally, about Shaka.

I couldn't disagree more with the statement " wins in the NCAA are the most important metric of coaching success".

While this may be true for many fans and members of the media, I can pretty much guarantee that it is not the most important metric for Shaka's employer, who is who he should be most concerned about.

I would bet that if the next 10 years play out like the last 3, making the NCAA tournament every year and winning a conference title or two, Shaka will not be in any danger of being fired based on the team's performance in the tournament. The Buzz Williams era should remind everyone that the administration is equally, if not more, concerned that the coach and players represent the university well. Unless attendance falls significantly (and I don't think it would with a consistently competitive team) Shaka will be welcome.

As for the season ending with a bad taste in your mouth, like it or not, that is likely to happen every year except in the unlikely event that the team wins the NCAA title. Fans who say they would be satisfied just making the Elite 8 or the Final Four will prove themselves wrong when the team is eliminated.

People who have been MU fans since the 60's know what lean times are like. Having a competitive and entertaining team that leaves a sour taste with a disappointing NCAA loss is far preferable to apathy and no taste at all.

Just my opinion.

[MuggsyB]

I think people are overlooking the impact JTY could have had on this roster down the stretch.  Mainly on the defensive side, but I also thought he would have improved offensively.  He also had his moments with two thanks for playing shots.  The one thing he could do is move the defense with his zoomability downhill.  I wouldn't sleep on this young man or hold his stature against him.  I love the kid and believe he will come back stronger.  He's a better Peyton Siva imo. 

[Goose]

Muggsy

Now that the season is over, I will throw in my two cents about the future. I like Sean and I like Stevie a lot, but my dream team would have both of those guys as high level reserves, not starters.

 Before I get bashed on Stevie, I love everything about him as a person and a player. That said, I think he has been a benefactor of playing in an exciting offensive system. MU needs bigger, tougher, and faster guys moving forward. Again, I think Stevie has improved a great deal and is important player, but not a 30 minute guy.

As for Sean, he would not be dream PG for the next three seasons. I would love a taller more offensive skilled version of him running the show.

I might might crazy, but I envision the future of MU basketball to look like a Rick Pitino style of play and players. Not the bad part of Rick, but the type of player he has won with for 35+ years. IMO, Sean is the perfect backup PG in that system.

[willie warrior]

IMO they will struggle at times but come around at the end.

Love your call name. Where did you get it? Speaks of reason, clairavoyance, intelligence, and willingness to agree.

[willie warrior]

Muggsy

Now that the season is over, I will throw in my two cents about the future. I like Sean and I like Stevie a lot, but my dream team would have both of those guys as high level reserves, not starters.

 Before I get bashed on Stevie, I love everything about him as a person and a player. That said, I think he has been a benefactor of playing in an exciting offensive system. MU needs bigger, tougher, and faster guys moving forward. Again, I think Stevie has improved a great deal and is important player, but not a 30 minute guy.

As for Sean, he would not be dream PG for the next three seasons. I would love a taller more offensive skilled version of him running the show.

I might might crazy, but I envision the future of MU basketball to look like a Rick Pitino style of play and players. Not the bad part of Rick, but the type of player he has won with for 35+ years. IMO, Sean is the perfect backup PG in that system.

Agreed on most of this. Some things about Mitchell. I love the guy, but the love he gets here is overwhelming. He is a good defensive player, but not elite like many here think. Also he is not a scorer or a shooter. Saying that I would still take him on my team 100 times out of 100.
Regarding Pitino style, of course he is a good coach, but a slimeball, and not a character builder. I would like to see Shakas style more often, but he absolutely has to get his ass in the portal because almost all the elite teams are using it. I personally hate it, but Shaka has to adapt.

[Nukem2]

Finally, about Shaka.

I couldn't disagree more with the statement " wins in the NCAA are the most important metric of coaching success".

While this may be true for many fans and members of the media, I can pretty much guarantee that it is not the most important metric for Shaka's employer, who is who he should be most concerned about.

I would bet that if the next 10 years play out like the last 3, making the NCAA tournament every year and winning a conference title or two, Shaka will not be in any danger of being fired based on the team's performance in the tournament. The Buzz Williams era should remind everyone that the administration is equally, if not more, concerned that the coach and players represent the university well. Unless attendance falls significantly (and I don't think it would with a consistently competitive team) Shaka will be welcome.

As for the season ending with a bad taste in your mouth, like it or not, that is likely to happen every year except in the unlikely event that the team wins the NCAA title. Fans who say they would be satisfied just making the Elite 8 or the Final Four will prove themselves wrong when the team is eliminated.

People who have been MU fans since the 60's know what lean times are like. Having a competitive and entertaining team that leaves a sour taste with a disappointing NCAA loss is far preferable to apathy and no taste at all.

Just my opinion.

+1. I’m an MU grad who has been around since the 60’s. The Shaka era is manna from heaven. Yep, it’s always disappointing to lose in the NCAAs, but the journey getting and being there is to be savored. In the end, every team but one has a disappointing end to the season.

[MuggsyB]

Muggsy

Now that the season is over, I will throw in my two cents about the future. I like Sean and I like Stevie a lot, but my dream team would have both of those guys as high level reserves, not starters.

My dream team wouldn't be Stevie and Sean but I think they're solid rotational players.  Mitchell has gotten better every year despite what happened Friday.  Sean's recovery is an unknown but I understand wanting a more proven commodity. 

 Before I get bashed on Stevie, I love everything about him as a person and a player. That said, I think he has been a benefactor of playing in an exciting offensive system. MU needs bigger, tougher, and faster guys moving forward. Again, I think Stevie has improved a great deal and is important player, but not a 30 minute guy.

As for Sean, he would not be dream PG for the next three seasons. I would love a taller more offensive skilled version of him running the show.

I might might crazy, but I envision the future of MU basketball to look like a Rick Pitino style of play and players. Not the bad part of Rick, but the type of player he has won with for 35+ years. IMO, Sean is the perfect backup PG in that system.

[Uncle Rico]

Agreed on most of this. Some things about Mitchell. I love the guy, but the love he gets here is overwhelming. He is a good defensive player, but not elite like many here think. Also he is not a scorer or a shooter. Saying that I would still take him on my team 100 times out of 100.
Regarding Pitino style, of course he is a good coach, but a slimeball, and not a character builder. I would like to see Shakas style more often, but he absolutely has to get his ass in the portal because almost all the elite teams are using it. I personally hate it, but Shaka has to adapt.

Billy Donovan has no character.  Mark Pope has no character.  Tony Delk has no character.  Peyton Siva has no character.

[Uncle Rico]

+1. I’m an MU grad who has been around since the 60’s. The Shaka era is manna from heaven. Yep, it’s always disappointing to lose in the NCAAs, but the journey getting and being there is to be savored. In the end, every team but one has a disappointing end to the season.

Blue is right on.  If this team makes the Final 4 and loses by 20 to Purdue, all the same type of posts are being made. 

If the team goes 19-14 and sneaks into the tourney next year in the play-in and makes an Elite 8, we’d have had an entire season of the usual suspects complaining about the state of the program, Shaka and the players.  And they’d still complain after making an Elite 8.

Some people are happier being miserable

[Goose]

Muggsy

You know I love you as a MU fan and the excitement you bring, but I always try to take emotion out of how I grade a player. I did fall into the trap of loving a player with TK and fortunately he proved that to be a good call. I have stating on here countless times that I think Ben Gold is an NBA player and on my dream team Ben Gold would be a 6th or 7th man. That is how championship teams are built. IMO, if Stevie was a 6th man and playing 20 minutes a game, you would have a helluva of team to be cheering for.

There is nothing not to love about Stevie and I am glad he is a very part of the program. My hopes for MU are bigger than many and I want to have the very best players they can get. I have argued with family and friends for years about taking emotions out of discussions on MU basketball. For 50+ years my favorite player every year has been the best player on the team because they give MU the best chance of winning.

[wisblue]

I also want to comment on the statement that reaching the Sweet 16 “should be almost automatic for a 2 seed”.

In fact, in the last 10 tournaments before this year, 23 of the 40 2 seeds reached the Sweet 16. I don’t consider something that happens 57.5% of the time to be “almost automatic”. So, even though the loss Friday was extremely disappointing, I think Shaka and the team do deserve some extra credit for winning two tournament games.

Only 16 of those 23 teams reached the Elite 8, so a 2 seed winning 3 games in the tournament has been less than a 50-50 proposition.

[MuggsyB]

Muggsy

You know I love you as a MU fan and the excitement you bring, but I always try to take emotion out of how I grade a player. I did fall into the trap of loving a player with TK and fortunately he proved that to be a good call. I have stating on here countless times that I think Ben Gold is an NBA player and on my dream team Ben Gold would be a 6th or 7th man. That is how championship teams are built. IMO, if Stevie was a 6th man and playing 20 minutes a game, you would have a helluva of team to be cheering for.

There is nothing not to love about Stevie and I am glad he is a very part of the program. My hopes for MU are bigger than many and I want to have the very best players they can get. I have argued with family and friends for years about taking emotions out of discussions on MU basketball. For 50+ years my favorite player every year has been the best player on the team because they give MU the best chance of winning.

That's fair Goose. 

[CountryRoads]

A: Shaka, Kolek, Oso, Kam, Mitchell
B: Joplin, Gold, Ross, Sean
C: Norman, Lowery
Inc: Al

[bilsu]

It is very hard to grade the freshmen, because their lack of playing time may be a reflection more of having experience players ahead of them then a lack or readiness. However, they barely got playing time even with injuries to Mitchell, Ross, Sean Jones and Tyler Kolek. When was the last time we got so little contributions from a freshmen class? Maybe they take a huge jump, but you cannot base this year's ratings on future potential.

I thought Lowery was the best of the freshmen.  However, if the two incoming freshmen are as good as I hope they are, I am not sure how much playing Lowery will get next year.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

OSO bombed the final so I cannot give him a A. And I share your concern ,Goose, that Sean at PG is a worry. I didn’t see much success when he went to the rim. Seemed that he was rejected on most efforts and I saw too much dribbling around.

[willie warrior]

A: Shaka, Kolek, Oso, Kam, Mitchell
B: Joplin, Gold, Ross, Sean
C: Norman, Lowery
Inc: Al

A: Kolek
B+: Kam, Shaka
C:Oso, Mitchell, Jolp, Ross,GoooollllldBrick
Grading by college grades, not through Blue and Gold lenses

[Vander Blue Man Group]

A: Kolek
B+: Kam, Shaka
C:Oso, Mitchell, Jolp, Ross,GoooollllldBrick
Grading by college grades, not through Blue and Gold lenses

Pretty impressive to be in top 10 most of the season and get a 2 seed with only 2 above average players. 

[Uncle Rico]

Pretty impressive to be in top 10 most of the season and get a 2 seed with only 2 above average players.

Imagine giving Oso and Mitchell C’s

😂

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Imagine giving Oso and Mitchell C’s

😂

Exactly.  Mitchell deserved a D for Dung.

[BLWarrior91]

As for the season ending with a bad taste in your mouth, like it or not, that is likely to happen every year except in the unlikely event that the team wins the NCAA title. Fans who say they would be satisfied just making the Elite 8 or the Final Four will prove themselves wrong when the team is eliminated.

People who have been MU fans since the 60's know what lean times are like. Having a competitive and entertaining team that leaves a sour taste with a disappointing NCAA loss is far preferable to apathy and no taste at all.

Just my opinion.

Great post, wisblue.  Having a team with high expectations that doesn’t win it all is far preferable to the alternative.  I went to MU and saw one NIT game in four years (and we lost).