MU/Butler Game Thread

[MuggsyB]

It was unacceptable

At the time it was but I and others overreacted. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

We had a dud game Reeko.  It happens.  No reason to dwell on it.

Someone, please bookmark this for the next time we lose. My guess is Muggsy is going to need a reminder

[brewcity77]

No. I refuse to criticize the refs because it's a loser's lament. They didn't have an impact on this game at all. And they hardly ever do.

Whether it impacted the outcome or not, the game was very poorly officiated, and it creates dangerous situations when they won't do their job, which is to call fouls that are right in front of them.

Posh used his knee to trip Chase, very obviously a foul, and they called it a travel. Tyler got shoved in the back out of bounds, and it was a no call while Jason Benetti said "and Butler has numbers again" which, I mean, yeah, you'll have a numerical advantage on offense when you are allowed to shove players to the ground on one end of the court and everyone else is running back (which happened multiple times). They finally called the Telfort hook and hold, which could've given us another shoulder injury, but he wouldn't even try something so blatantly dangerous if the refs were doing their jobs.

Bad officiating is bad officiating. It creates a lower quality of play, reduces fan confidence on both sides, and increases the odds of injuries. There are zero positives to a game being officiated like last night was. If something is a foul, call it a foul. That did not happen last night.

[JakeBarnes]

Whether it impacted the outcome or not, the game was very poorly officiated, and it creates dangerous situations when they won't do their job, which is to call fouls that are right in front of them.

Posh used his knee to trip Chase, very obviously a foul, and they called it a travel. Tyler got shoved in the back out of bounds, and it was a no call while Jason Benetti said "and Butler has numbers again" which, I mean, yeah, you'll have a numerical advantage on offense when you are allowed to shove players to the ground on one end of the court and everyone else is running back (which happened multiple times). They finally called the Telfort hook and hold, which could've given us another shoulder injury, but he wouldn't even try something so blatantly dangerous if the refs were doing their jobs.

Bad officiating is bad officiating. It creates a lower quality of play, reduces fan confidence on both sides, and increases the odds of injuries. There are zero positives to a game being officiated like last night was. If something is a foul, call it a foul. That did not happen last night.

This is my feeling. The Telfort one got me mad. it was dangerous and should been an f1

[HowardsWorld]

Whether it impacted the outcome or not, the game was very poorly officiated, and it creates dangerous situations when they won't do their job, which is to call fouls that are right in front of them.

Posh used his knee to trip Chase, very obviously a foul, and they called it a travel. Tyler got shoved in the back out of bounds, and it was a no call while Jason Benetti said "and Butler has numbers again" which, I mean, yeah, you'll have a numerical advantage on offense when you are allowed to shove players to the ground on one end of the court and everyone else is running back (which happened multiple times). They finally called the Telfort hook and hold, which could've given us another shoulder injury, but he wouldn't even try something so blatantly dangerous if the refs were doing their jobs.

Bad officiating is bad officiating. It creates a lower quality of play, reduces fan confidence on both sides, and increases the odds of injuries. There are zero positives to a game being officiated like last night was. If something is a foul, call it a foul. That did not happen last night.

The reffing had been so bad to this point I honestly thought they were going to call OSO for a moving screen.

[brewcity77]

Last night, someone compared the officiating in this game to soccer officiating. In soccer, they often only call a foul if it creates an advantage for the other team. Many calls behind or away from the play go uncalled even though they would clearly be fouls in different circumstances.

That's not how it's supposed to work in basketball. A foul is a foul regardless of location or circumstance. And when you don't call fouls that are fouls (the Oso touch foul in Hawaii 40 feet from the basket comes to mind) you end up with dangerous plays and looking the other way when advantages are created (Tyler getting shoved out of bounds to create a 5-on-4 break).

Just officiate the basketball game like a basketball game.

[MuggsyB]

Last night, someone compared the officiating in this game to soccer officiating. In soccer, they often only call a foul if it creates an advantage for the other team. Many calls behind or away from the play go uncalled even though they would clearly be fouls in different circumstances.

That's not how it's supposed to work in basketball. A foul is a foul regardless of location or circumstance. And when you don't call fouls that are fouls (the Oso touch foul in Hawaii 40 feet from the basket comes to mind) you end up with dangerous plays and looking the other way when advantages are created (Tyler getting shoved out of bounds to create a 5-on-4 break).

Just officiate the basketball game like a basketball game.

There's definitely a line between allowing some physicality vs creating a dangerous environment.  Other than Fluffy I think the vast, vast, vast majority of scoopers were not pleased with the officiating yesterday. 

[The Sultan]

Whether it impacted the outcome or not, the game was very poorly officiated, and it creates dangerous situations when they won't do their job, which is to call fouls that are right in front of them.

Posh used his knee to trip Chase, very obviously a foul, and they called it a travel. Tyler got shoved in the back out of bounds, and it was a no call while Jason Benetti said "and Butler has numbers again" which, I mean, yeah, you'll have a numerical advantage on offense when you are allowed to shove players to the ground on one end of the court and everyone else is running back (which happened multiple times). They finally called the Telfort hook and hold, which could've given us another shoulder injury, but he wouldn't even try something so blatantly dangerous if the refs were doing their jobs.

Bad officiating is bad officiating. It creates a lower quality of play, reduces fan confidence on both sides, and increases the odds of injuries. There are zero positives to a game being officiated like last night was. If something is a foul, call it a foul. That did not happen last night.

Yes. They are bad. They've been bad for a long time. And the NCAA and its conferences only have themselves to blame for this. They have created this "independent contractor" model, so refs aren't adequately evaluated and trained, and are motivated to work anywhere at any time to maximize their income.

What they *should* do is make them employees, limit their schedules, but have a more thorough evaluation process.  But that's costsly. And you get what you pay for.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Yes. They are bad. They've been bad for a long time. And the NCAA and its conferences only have themselves to blame for this. They have created this "independent contractor" model, so refs aren't adequately evaluated and trained, and are motivated to work anywhere at any time to maximize their income.

What they *should* do is make them employees, limit their schedules, but have a more thorough evaluation process.  But that's costsly. And you get what you pay for.

God forbid anyone calls this out when it's even worse than usual, even if it didn't impact the outcome of the game. 

[The Sultan]

God forbid anyone calls this out when it's even worse than usual, even if it didn't impact the outcome of the game. 

I never have a problem with "the refs are bad." I have a problem with "we are playing 5 on 8" or similar nonsense.

[wisblue]

At the time it was but I and others overreacted.

There might have been some overreacting after that Butler game, but I think it was legitimate to have some concerns about whether the team was going to live up to the preseason expectations.

That game, the second half in particular, was just the latest  of several uninspiring performances that started with the Wisconsin game. Kolek was not playing like an all state, much less an all American level player and they couldn't make a three-point shot to save their lives. The injuries to Ross and Sean Jones added more uncertainty to the future.

[FrennA]

Officiating last night was beyond poor, it was biased.  I even checked scoop to see if others were noticing it.  In addition, The refs must hate Tyler because he is constantly getting fouled, all conference long, yet no calls. The trip on Chase being called travel was not the only one.  I believe it was Gold in the first half got bumped in the lane and called for a travel.  Then the ironic part was Butler in the second half blatantly walking on at least 3 occasions and no call. 

[The Sultan]

Officiating last night was beyond poor, it was biased.  I even checked scoop to see if others were noticing it.  In addition, The refs must hate Tyler because he is constantly getting fouled, all conference long, yet no calls. The trip on Chase being called travel was not the only one.  I believe it was Gold in the first half got bumped in the lane and called for a travel.  Then the ironic part was Butler in the second half blatantly walking on at least 3 occasions and no call. 

This is exactly what I mean. It's no longer that the refereeing is bad...or even favors a team...it's that the refs have actual bias and hate our players.

I just can't take that seriously.

[StillAWarrior]

The trip on Chase being called travel was not the only one.

This is exactly what I mean. It's no longer that the refereeing is bad...or even favors a team...it's that the refs have actual bias and hate our players.

I just can't take that seriously.

I don't think Chase got tripped. I thought so at the time, but repeated viewings on replay did not seem to show a trip. I think he slipped.

When my daughter used to play at Hinkle the floor was always wet. Since it was VB they did not use the full BB court, and every time I was there they had big commercial fans on the court near the BB end line trying to keep the court dry (and not completely successfully). Not sure what the issue there is.

[CountryRoads]

Officiating last night was beyond poor, it was biased.  I even checked scoop to see if others were noticing it.  In addition, The refs must hate Tyler because he is constantly getting fouled, all conference long, yet no calls. The trip on Chase being called travel was not the only one.  I believe it was Gold in the first half got bumped in the lane and called for a travel.  Then the ironic part was Butler in the second half blatantly walking on at least 3 occasions and no call.

I think generally there is a natural human bias towards the home team and/or the team that is behind. We were going against both last night.

For example, Mitchell's foul with 18 seconds left is probably called a jump ball if we were behind. Same situation happened earlier when Gold grabbed a rebound off a free throw and it was called a jump ball quickly.

Joplin's foul on the the "And 1" late in the game was called.

These were both swallowed:
https://x.com/davee_8/status/1755573678496985280?s=46

Joplin foul: https://x.com/butlermbb/status/1757573072427626643?s=46

Similar plays, different situations, different calls.

[The Sultan]

For example, Mitchell's foul with 18 seconds left is probably called a jump ball if we were behind. Same situation happened earlier when Gold grabbed a rebound off a free throw and it was called a jump ball quickly.

But they weren't similar plays. Stevie clearly went over his back. Ben brought the ball down right in front of the Butler player.

[MUfan12]

Watch it again. Stevie was nowhere near over his back. He went under to grab the ball.

[CountryRoads]

But they weren't similar plays. Stevie clearly went over his back. Ben brought the ball down right in front of the Butler player.

Not really worth arguing but I don't think Stevie went over the back:

(1:05:33)

https://youtu.be/E0VLG1hYiso?feature=shared

[The Sultan]

Watch it again. Stevie was nowhere near over his back. He went under to grab the ball.

Not really worth arguing but I don't think Stevie went over the back:

(1:05:33)

https://youtu.be/E0VLG1hYiso?feature=shared

You are both correct. I had the wrong play in my head. But I also can't really see what happened.

[FrennA]

You really can't believe a ref doesn't like Kolek?  The same player the announcers constantly rave about his tough guy attitude, who thrives when taunted?  The guy who plays with a chip on his shoulder who's constantly jawing at the refs?  You can't image a ref not being biased against him?  Really?  Ok.  I admire their professionalism then since I could see myself not being completely fair to a guy jawing at me constantly.  I guess I need to work on myself and take your word that the refs are never biased.  Definitely makes me change my opinion on those 3 first half fouls called on Wade at the Kohl center.  Must have been warranted because it would be crazy to assume anything to the contrary.

[The Sultan]

You really can't believe a ref doesn't like Kolek?  The same player the announcers constantly rave about his tough guy attitude, who thrives when taunted?  The guy who plays with a chip on his shoulder who's constantly jawing at the refs?  You can't image a ref not being biased against him?  Really?  Ok.  I admire their professionalism then since I could see myself not being completely fair to a guy jawing at me constantly.  I guess I need to work on myself and take your word that the refs are never biased.  Definitely makes me change my opinion on those 3 first half fouls called on Wade at the Kohl center.  Must have been warranted because it would be crazy to assume anything to the contrary.

I have no idea if a ref likes or doesn't like Kolek. Most of them have seen hundreds of similar guys, so no...I don't think it has anything to do with bias.

And you are seriously bringing up a game from 22 and a half years ago to prove your point?

[FrennA]

Yes, I am.  Is that ok? 

[Uncle Rico]

To me, this is cinema

[The Sultan]

Yes, I am.  Is that ok? 

Do what you want. It's just not terribly relevant to a game played in February 2024.

[StillAWarrior]

You really can't believe a ref doesn't like Kolek?  The same player the announcers constantly rave about his tough guy attitude, who thrives when taunted?  The guy who plays with a chip on his shoulder who's constantly jawing at the refs?  You can't image a ref not being biased against him?  Really?  Ok.  I admire their professionalism then since I could see myself not being completely fair to a guy jawing at me constantly.  I guess I need to work on myself and take your word that the refs are never biased.  Definitely makes me change my opinion on those 3 first half fouls called on Wade at the Kohl center.  Must have been warranted because it would be crazy to assume anything to the contrary.

Several thoughts on your questions:

• More often than not, when I see TyKo talking to refs it is during a stoppage (e.g., coming out of time-outs, during free throws, etc.) and both TyKo and the referee seem pretty chill - my general impression is that they like him. I could be wrong, of course.
• TyKo certainly isn't terribly unique in his tendency to complain about calls or play with a chip on his shoulder. At all. Basketball at all levels is filled with players who sincerely believe they have never committed a foul and/or were fouled every time they drive and are eager to share their opinion with the refs. Not sure why they'd hate on TyKo.
• Why did the refs at the Kohl center hate Wade? Was he constantly jawing or have a chip on his shoulder? I honestly don't recall.

Are there refs out there with personal bias toward a player? I have no doubt that there are some. But it's pretty rare. In my opinion, any "bias" against TyKo -- to the extent it exists -- is a bias against players who drive the lane and are just teetering on the edge of being a little out of control. I think TyKo does that -- and it's one of the things I love about him. Refs don't like to bail those guys out.