5 best baseball players of your lifetime

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Well, here is exactly what I said:

"Bonds: very good player pre-steroids, but far from top-5. Can't agree that steroid Barry should be included but realize that is a whole separate discussion that has already spilled an infinite amount of digital ink.

IMO, he was very good in his prime, but far from top players all time. Pre-steroids, was he in the same conversation with Ruth, Williams, Spahn, Mays, Matthews, et al?

Steroids, of course, allowed him to be beyond top players of all time at a time in his career when others are barely hanging on or out of the game."

So grats on proving I was dead wrong about something I didn't say.

🐷🐷

[TSmith34, Inc.]

[Lennys Tap]

Well, here is exactly what I said:

"Bonds: very good player pre-steroids, but far from top-5. Can't agree that steroid Barry should be included but realize that is a whole separate discussion that has already spilled an infinite amount of digital ink.

IMO, he was very good in his prime, but far from top players all time. Pre-steroids, was he in the same conversation with Ruth, Williams, Spahn, Mays, Matthews, et al?

Steroids, of course, allowed him to be beyond top players of all time at a time in his career when others are barely hanging on or out of the game."

So grats on proving I was dead wrong about something I didn't say.

You said he was a "very good player" pre steroids. That is such a ridiculous understatement that calling it dead wrong is accurate. By the time he was 28 he had won three (3) MVPs and led the league in WAR 4 times. He wasn't "very good" - he was a superstar. Without steroids he was on a trajectory to being an all time great. Not top 5 imo but for sure in the team photo, certainly ahead of 2 of the 5 you refer to as "all time greats".

[Herman Cain]

One of the all time great baseball deals is Bobby Bonillas 25 year deferred contract payout. Getting $1.3 million  a year on July1 from the Mets and another .5 million a year from the Orioles .
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/bobby-bonilla-day-why-mets-still-owe-former-mlb-all-star-1-19m-per-year-on-july-1/amp/

[Heisenberg]

Are you guys not paying attention?

1. Ohtani
2. Ohtani
3. Ohtani
4. Ohtani
5. Ohtani


He is the best player since Babe Ruth. And at the rate he's going, especially this month, we might drop "Babe Ruth" from that statement.

(This thread reminds me of my friends in Boston in the early mid-1980s desperately trying to convince everyone that Wayne Gretzky was not as good as Bobby Orr.)

[The Sultan]

Ohtani is nowhere near to baseball what Gretzky was to hockey.

He's not even the best Los Angeles Angel of my lifetime. He may be when all is said and done, but even his best season prior to this (2021) he had a total WAR of 8.9, which includes both hitting and pitching.  Mike Trout has had FOUR seasons better than that.

And it's not as though Ohtani is some young unknown just breaking into the league. He's 28.

[Heisenberg]

Ohtani is nowhere near to baseball what Gretzky was to hockey.

He's not even the best Los Angeles Angel of my lifetime. He may be when all is said and done, but even his best season prior to this (2021) he had a total WAR of 8.9, which includes both hitting and pitching.  Mike Trout has had FOUR seasons better than that.

And it's not as though Ohtani is some young unknown just breaking into the league. He's 28.

This a good read on why the WAR statistic for a two-way player is a flawed measure (and Ohtani is the only two-way player)

June 30
A Thought on Ohtani, WAR, and Wow
https://robert-black.medium.com/a-thought-on-ohtani-war-and-wow-a622067d9f64

So, they adjusted his WAR for being a two-way player ...

Refiguring Ohtani's WAR for his pitching and ABs

2018: 7.2
2019: 4.9
2020: 0.9
2021: 13.9
2022: 15.7
2023: 9.6

Peak Barry Bonds put up seasons around 12.5. Babe Ruth's very best season ever was 14.7, in 1923. The best pitching season on record is Pedro Martinez in 1999, 11.6 WAR, or, if you prefer RA9-WAR, Walter Johnson's 16.2 in 1913 (excluding 19th century stuff when pitchers threw practically every day; the best mark of the live-ball era is Bob Gibson's 13.5 in 1968).

Calculated this way, Ohtani is on pace for something like 19 this year.

---

To highlight,

Ohtani already has among the highest two-way adjusted WARs ever recorded, and if he continues his 2023 pace, his projected 19 WAR this year will exceed Walter Johnson's 16.2 1913 record.

Last year, Ohtani's WAR broke Bob Gibson's record for the WAR in the live ball era.
-----------------------

And Ohtani might have just completed the best month in baseball history.

July 1
Angels superstar Shohei Ohtani just had the best June in MLB history — yes, even better than Babe Ruth
Ohtani had a top-25 month ever by OPS and he also was outstanding on the mound
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/angels-superstar-shohei-ohtani-just-had-the-best-june-in-mlb-history-yes-even-better-than-babe-ruth/

-----------------------

I stand by my assertion that the five best players any of us have ever seen are

1. Ohtani
2. Ohtani
3. Ohtani
4. Ohtani
5. Ohtani

[The Sultan]

" So what if we gave him a pitcher's positional adjustment for all his games?"

Lol. So in other words he adjusted a stat to get his predetermined result.  No thanks. 

And the biggest reason to think that Ohtani isn't the best player ever is because he's received the Heisey kiss of death.

[Heisenberg]

" So what if we gave him a pitcher's positional adjustment for all his games?"

Lol. So in other words he adjusted a stat to get his predetermined result.  No thanks. 

And the biggest reason to think that Ohtani isn't the best player ever is because he's received the Heisey kiss of death.

Why do you always attack everyone that disagrees with you? Is anyone allowed an opinion that you do not agree with?

[The Sultan]

Why do you always attack everyone that disagrees with you? Is anyone allowed an opinion that you do not agree with?

I just like dunking on you because you are so spectacularly wrong so very often.

[Heisenberg]

I just like dunking on you because you are so spectacularly wrong so very often.

Again with the attacks.  You must be a miserable person in real life.

I feel sorry for your family, what a punishment you are for them.

So spectacularly wrong so very often = I disagree with Sultan, so personal attacks are justified, as he is the only opinion that is correct.

----

In the meantime ... I will note that you completely dismiss this guy's analysis of the WAR statistic simply because it does not fit your opinion.

Dan Szymborski
@DSzymborski
Senior Writer for FanGraphs, ESPN contributor, data consultant, ZiPSetician, gamer, talkative, exasperated/ing, possibly the worst. BBWAA, Digital Dandy.

Everyone is an idiot that does not agree with Sultan.

And he will die don't he hill that Ohtani is not a special player.

Thanks for ruining yet another thread.

[The Sultan]

Again with the attacks.  You must be a miserable person in real life.

I feel sorry for your family, what a punishment you are for them.

So spectacularly wrong so very often = I disagree with Sultan, so personal attacks are justified, as he is the only opinion that is correct.

----

In the meantime ... I will note that you completely dismiss this guy's analysis of the WAR statistic simply because it does not fit your opinion.

Dan Szymborski
@DSzymborski
Senior Writer for FanGraphs, ESPN contributor, data consultant, ZiPSetician, gamer, talkative, exasperated/ing, possibly the worst. BBWAA, Digital Dandy.

Everyone is an idiot that does not agree with Sultan.

And he will die don't he hill that Ohtani is not a special player.

Thanks for ruining yet another thread.

Anytime!

[Uncle Rico]

Anytime!

Ohtani's story hasn't been completely written.  He's incredible and I'll listen to arguments about his place in history but if he fell off a cliff as a player moving forward, you appreciate what he's done and wonder what could have been.

He's two and a half years into one of the great stretches in baseball history.  Does he have greater staying power?  I hope so because he's fun as hell

[The Sultan]

Ohtani's story hasn't been completely written.  He's incredible and I'll listen to arguments about his place in history but if he fell off a cliff as a player moving forward, you appreciate what he's done and wonder what could have been.

He's two and a half years into one of the great stretches in baseball history.  Does he have greater staying power?  I hope so because he's fun as hell

Agreed.

[MU82]

Ohtani's story hasn't been completely written.  He's incredible and I'll listen to arguments about his place in history but if he fell off a cliff as a player moving forward, you appreciate what he's done and wonder what could have been.

He's two and a half years into one of the great stretches in baseball history.  Does he have greater staying power?  I hope so because he's fun as hell

Of course this is correct.

If your OP had asked us to name the 5 best players we've seen in any 2-3 year stretch, I'd have have listed Ohtani first. Pujols, Frank Thomas and, hell, Sosa and McGwire probably would also be on that list if nobody cares about juicing.

From 1998-2001, Sosa AVERAGED 61 HRs and 149 RBIs with a 1.058 OPS, for crissakes!

If anybody had asked your OP question midway through the 2006 season -- Pujols' 6th season in the bigs -- some might have answered:

1. Pujols
2. Pujols
3. Pujols
4. Pujols
5. Pujols

I love watching Ohtani play. He's incredible, and the pitching piece makes him an absolute freak, the likes of which baseball has never seen (not even Ruth pitched and hit like this in multiple seasons at the same time).

But I need more than 2 1/2 years to put his career into the same stratosphere as the players I listed as my top 5. As you said, I hope Ohtani has staying power so we can look back and say, "What an incredible decade he had. He's probably the best ballplayer ever!"

[PGsHeroes32]

I'll stick with what I said. But I do admit you make a compelling argument.

Of course, one also could say you make a compelling argument for Pujols, as he had not-since-Ted-Williams numbers his first 10 seasons.

Funny you mention Albert

Because he was the person I meant to comment on here is being vastly undervalued.

That guy was so goddamn good for a decade

[Heisenberg]

Ohtani's story hasn't been completely written.  He's incredible and I'll listen to arguments about his place in history but if he fell off a cliff as a player moving forward, you appreciate what he's done and wonder what could have been.

He's two and a half years into one of the great stretches in baseball history.  Does he have greater staying power?  I hope so because he's fun as hell

But I need more than 2 1/2 years to put his career into the same stratosphere as the players I listed as my top 5. As you said, I hope Ohtani has staying power so we can look back and say, "What an incredible decade he had. He's probably the best ballplayer ever!"

These are interesting responses, do not disagree.

How do you define staying power? Assuming he continues this year as he has, that is three years.  How many more years?

Let me offer a potential answer.

The average MLB career is 5.6 years, and the average retirement age is 29.5 years.

Source: https://mlbrun.com/average-career-length-of-mlb#:~:text=Average%20career%20length%20of%20MLB%20Player%20is%205.6%20years.,players%2C%20and%20the%20major%20league.

Ohtani is 28. If he can continue this pace (or close to it) for two more years, would that qualify as staying power, and then we start talking about his place in history?

[Pakuni]

The average MLB career is 5.6 years, and the average retirement age is 29.5 years.

I'm not sure this is relevant in a discussion of all-time greats. Presumably this includes guys who had the proverbial cup of coffee in the league, late-season call-ups, etc.

On the other hand - recognizing these numbers could be slightly dated - as of 2012, the average batter in Cooperstown played 18 seasons, 2,147 games had 9,051 plate appearances and 7,963 at bats.
https://www.replacementlevelpodcast.com/2012/07/22/your-average-hall-of-famer/


Trying to find similar figures for pitchers.

[Heisenberg]

I'm not sure this is relevant in a discussion of all-time greats. Presumably this includes guys who had the proverbial cup of coffee in the league, late-season call-ups, etc.

On the other hand - recognizing these numbers could be slightly dated - as of 2012, the average batter in Cooperstown played 18 seasons, 2,147 games had 9,051 plate appearances and 7,963 at bats.
https://www.replacementlevelpodcast.com/2012/07/22/your-average-hall-of-famer/


Trying to find similar figures for pitchers.

Good stat.

On this front, Ohtani is finishing his sixth season. Unless he has a major health or injury-related issue, he has at least another decade in MLB, putting him close to that 18-year average.

Like Pujois, we should expect the last several seasons of his career to be "average" or "mediocre." He'll stop being a two-way player during this part of his career.

How many of these transformation seasons does he need to be considered in the Babe Ruth category as one of the greatest ever (or maybe even the greatest ever)? Again, assuming no setback this year, he has three such consecutive seasons done. 

----

Side note, Ohtani did not speak English when he came over. I don't know how well his English is now, but I assume it is not good as you never see him interviewed or doing endorsements (or hosting SNL).

How much has his inability to speak English hurt his reputation as one of the great players in the game?

I posit that true baseball fans understand his talent, but the mass public would think more of him if he was on TV pitching products.

[MU82]

How do you define staying power? Assuming he continues this year as he has, that is three years.  How many more years?

The average MLB career is 5.6 years, and the average retirement age is 29.5 years.
Ohtani is 28. If he can continue this pace (or close to it) for two more years, would that qualify as staying power, and then we start talking about his place in history?

Well, as I said in a post not all that long after Unk initiated this thread:

Two more great years and Shohei moves to the top of the heap.

[Badgerhater]

Kirby Puckett

Why?  I grew up in MN and he ensured the Twins won two World Series in five years.

[Jockey]

As I said earlier, any day that he walks on the diamond, he can be considered the greatest to ever do so.

But as of now, he is not one of the greatest players of all time. To even be considered, he needs at least 6-8 more years of putting up similar numbers.

[JWags85]

How much has his inability to speak English hurt his reputation as one of the great players in the game?

I posit that true baseball fans understand his talent, but the mass public would think more of him if he was on TV pitching products.

ZERO.  Mike Trout speaks perfect English and is an American and the mass public doesn't know him from Mike Bass, other than his name as a great player.  MLB doesn't market their players well and MLB has a regional product problem.  I honestly think Ohtani has been marketed and accepted as well as he could.  I don't think he's any less known than Aaron Judge, honestly I think he's more well known.

As I said earlier, any day that he walks on the diamond, he can be considered the greatest to ever do so.

But as of now, he is not one of the greatest players of all time. To even be considered, he needs at least 6-8 more years of putting up similar numbers.

I agree.  There is the idea of a player's peak and a player's career.  When talked about as one of the all time greats, its referring to the latter.  Which is why you don't talk about guys like Tim Lincecum or DeGrom as an "all time great" even though their peaks were nearly unhittable

[TSmith34, Inc.]

You said he was a "very good player" pre steroids. That is such a ridiculous understatement that calling it dead wrong is accurate. By the time he was 28 he had won three (3) MVPs and led the league in WAR 4 times. He wasn't "very good" - he was a superstar. Without steroids he was on a trajectory to being an all time great. Not top 5 imo but for sure in the team photo, certainly ahead of 2 of the 5 you refer to as "all time greats".

I said he wasn't top 5 pre-steriods.

You said he wasn't top 5, and then said I was dead wrong. So you then moved the goalposts.

Really, when people say you've become Chicos maybe you should take it to heart.

[Jockey]

I stand by my assertion that the five best players any of us have ever seen are

1. Ohtani
2. Ohtani
3. Ohtani
4. Ohtani
5. Ohtani

In less than 6 years, Ohtani has a 145 average OPS+.

Willie Mays averaged a 155 OPS+ in 23 seasons.  Mays was faster and better defensively than Ohtani.

Ohtani, of course has the pitching stats. But he has to play at or close to his current level for many more years to be considered the GOAT.