2023-24 NBA Thread

[MU82]

Nobody cares about the Hornets, and I can understand why. But I do think it will be interesting to see what happens with Miles Bridges.

Bridges is an incredibly talented player who is just about to enter his prime. Were it not for a series of horrific off-the-court incidents, he'd already have a max contract. But those incidents did happen, and so far it's made him toxic.

But new Hornets boss Jeff Peterson says he absolutely wants to keep Bridges, who nonetheless filed for free agency. Are other NBA GMs also ready to shrug their shoulders about his anger, violence and legal issues, setting up a bidding war?

[Pakuni]

The Bulls refuse to act like an organization that cares about winning. The Williams deal is so bad. If you completely set aside the fact that his play does not support $18M/yr by any metric, Patrick cannot stay healthy. 3 years at $45M would have made some sense.

Williams is JR's wet dream for a roster that will always miss the playoffs. Who values a 3 & D power forward? The Bulls negotiated against themselves here.

Oh well, at least the Bulls didn't give him $200M, and maybe the deal is front loaded. And if they move LaVine and don't sign DeRozen then locking down PW is good for tanking next year and beyond.

This makes Williams the 83rd highest-paid player in the league (for now) alongside Duncan Robinson and Norman Powell. It's a perfectly fine deal for a 22-year-old free agent.
If you want to be mad at the Bulls - and boy, do you ever - be mad that LaVine, DeRozan and Vuc are still on the roster.

[MuggsyB]

The Bulls' management are experts at creating terminal unmitigated disasters.

[WhiteTrash]

Literally every team in the NBA (and college) values a 3 and D power forward.

Looking at some playoff teams:
Celtics don't have a PF.
Mavericks have PJ Washington at $17M and is a better player
Pacers have a great one in Siakam (not a 3 guy)
Heat have Love ay $4M
Cavs have Evan Mobley (not a 3 guy) at $6M
T-Wolves have J. McDaniels at $4M (good comp stats wise to PW)
Thunder don't have a PF
Clippers have a great one P. George
Nuggets have A. Gordon (not a 3 guy)
Bucks have B. Portis at about $12M.

I concede that finding a great 3&D PF would be valuable but certainly not a key need for successful teams. If Williams could become Draymond, that would be great, but Draymond is 100X better ball handler and passer.

Also, when I say Williams is a 3 & D player, he is going to have to grow into that role. He take 3 3's a game and his D is very inconsistent. And I challenge anyone to find anyone who thinks Williams has a good motor or shows above average effort.

[Uncle Rico]

It's a lucrative occupation. Those who do it probably love it.

Also, you realize that if the players didn't get the money, it would go straight into the pockets of the billionaires who own the teams, right?

Well, roqqqet definitely doesn't want workers to get the money they generate

[WhiteTrash]

This makes Williams the 83rd highest-paid player in the league (for now) alongside Duncan Robinson and Norman Powell. It's a perfectly fine deal for a 22-year-old free agent.
If you want to be mad at the Bulls - and boy, do you ever - be mad that LaVine, DeRozan and Vuc are still on the roster.

For a quality organization, this would be viewed as a bad move. To your point, this is far from the worst deal by the Bulls. Just symptomatic of a really bad FO and owner.

The gap in logic is more troubling than the dollars. If you think he is young with great potential and will become a good NBA starter, then why give him the 5th year option? He will walk if the FO is right and it will be a bad deal. He will only take the 5th year option if he continues to play like he has or continues to be injured like he has. It will be a bad deal then.

DeRozen will not come back, as they don't have the money for him. LaVine need to go, but they have to wait and show he has recovered from his injury and be realistic on his value. Vuc is untradable and the Bulls wll not buy out a healthy player.

[EDIT] I will say this deal would not be as bad for a team with the ability to go into the luxury tax. The Bulls have to hit on every player with their financial constraints. 

[WhiteTrash]

It's a lucrative occupation. Those who do it probably love it.

Also, you realize that if the players didn't get the money, it would go straight into the pockets of the billionaires who own the teams, right?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't read RS' post as complaining about what the players make.

[Pakuni]

Looking at some playoff teams:
Celtics don't have a PF.
Mavericks have PJ Washington at $17M and is a better player
Pacers have a great one in Siakam (not a 3 guy)
Heat have Love ay $4M
Cavs have Evan Mobley (not a 3 guy) at $6M
T-Wolves have J. McDaniels at $4M (good comp stats wise to PW)
Thunder don't have a PF
Clippers have a great one P. George
Nuggets have A. Gordon (not a 3 guy)
Bucks have B. Portis at about $12M.

I concede that finding a great 3&D PF would be valuable but certainly not a key need for successful teams. If Williams could become Draymond, that would be great, but Draymond is 100X better ball handler and passer.

Also, when I say Williams is a 3 & D player, he is going to have to grow into that role. He take 3 3's a game and his D is very inconsistent. And I challenge anyone to find anyone who thinks Williams has a good motor or shows above average effort.

You're being a little disingenuous here.

Celtics - What's Al Horford, if not a 3 & D power forward. And Tatum also plays the 4 spot (and takes a ton of threes).
Mobely is on his rookie contract. I think we can assume his next deal will pay him substantially more than Williams.
Jalen Williams plays the 4 spot for the Thunder.
Aaron Gordon has taken more threes per game in his career than Williams. Why is he not a three guy, but Williams is?

Why did you leave out the Sixers (Harris), Pelicans (Zion), Suns (Durant), Lakers (Hachimura), Knicks (Randle) and Magic (Banchero)?

[Pakuni]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't read RS' post as complaining about what the players make.

He meant insane in a good way.

[The Sultan]

White Trash complaining about a relatively minor, hardly controversial move? You don't say...

[WhiteTrash]

You're being a little disingenuous here.

Celtics - What's Al Horford, if not a 3 & D power forward. And Tatum also plays the 4 spot (and takes a ton of threes).
Mobely is on his rookie contract. I think we can assume his next deal will pay him substantially more than Williams.
Jalen Williams plays the 4 spot for the Thunder.
Aaron Gordon has taken more threes per game in his career than Williams. Why is he not a three guy, but Williams is?

Why did you leave out the Sixers (Harris), Pelicans (Zion), Suns (Durant), Lakers (Hachimura), Knicks (Randle) and Magic (Banchero)?

That's mostly fair. Aaron is not a big three guy and as I said in my post Williams has to grow into a real three point threat. Right now, Williams is not a great player in any aspect of his game other than a good % 3-point shooter on low volume. But they are paying him on the hope he is going to become a 3&D guy, so I'll rate him as such.

Remember Williams regressed last year and lost his starting job for part of the season.

Come on, Zion as a 3&D guy? Same with Harris.
I'd be good with Williams on a Hachimura contract and production.
Durant, Randle & Banchero are good calls.

Maybe I'm wrong but having a 3&D PF, is not a typical key  component of successful teams to the point where you bid against yourself for Williams. I assume William's agent took the temperature of the league and told Pat to jump on the Bulls offer.

[WhiteTrash]

White Trash complaining about a relatively minor, hardly controversial move? You don't say...

This would be true for most NBA teams, but this is a big deal for a team with no cap space.

But even for the Bulls this is not nearly as important as unloading salary and getting a top 5 pick.

[Pakuni]

That's mostly fair. Aaron is not a big three guy and as I said in my post Williams has to grow into a real three point threat. Right now, Williams is not a great player in any aspect of his game other than a good % 3-point shooter on low volume. But they are paying him on the hope he is going to become a 3&D guy, so I'll rate him as such.

Remember Williams regressed last year and lost his starting job for part of the season.

Come on, Zion as a 3&D guy? Same with Harris.
I'd be good with Williams on a Hachimura contract and production.
Durant, Randle & Banchero are good calls.

Maybe I'm wrong but having a 3&D PF, is not a typical key  component of successful teams to the point where you bid against yourself for Williams. I assume William's agent took the temperature of the league and told Pat to jump on the Bulls offer.

I was citing Zion as an example of a team with a power forward.
Tobias Harris is definitely a three-point shooter. Has averaged nearly 4 attempts per game the past three seasons.
Hachimura is making $17 million on a contract signed a year ago. Williams' new contract pays $18 million. That's a completely reasonable year-over-year increase. Two years from now, Williams' contract will seem minuscule, accounting for less than 10 percent of the team's cap.

[WhiteTrash]

I was citing Zion as an example of a team with a power forward.
Tobias Harris is definitely a three-point shooter. Has averaged nearly 4 attempts per game the past three seasons.
Hachimura is making $17 million on a contract signed a year ago. Williams' new contract pays $18 million. That's a completely reasonable year-over-year increase. Two years from now, Williams' contract will seem minuscule, accounting for less than 10 percent of the team's cap.

I thought the argument was for a 3&D PF? A great PF who can score, block shots, pass and defend is very important that every team wants. 3 point shooting is not a must have from your PF to win, IMO, and not prevalent in playoff quality teams, but you point out there are some.

As for Hachimura, I just see ESPN has him at $15.7M.
As for Harris, I guess it is a matter of opinion; 4 of his 17 points per game came from 3's. He is an effective scorer within the 3 point line. I'd say a good all around player and not a 3&D player.

I don't hate signing Pat (assuming he can become a 3&D player), just too long of a deal and slightly over paid based upon his injury history.

At the end of the day, everyone is correct that Williams deal is okay for most every NBA team. People who do not follow the Bulls don't realize the financial constraints and how critical that every dollar be spent well.

[4everwarriors]

Owners are making more.

Duh, as they should, hey?

[MU82]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't read RS' post as complaining about what the players make.

You're wrong.

As for Pat Williams, I'm not gonna go back and try to find it, but weren't you concerned that the Bulls were gonna give him about twice as much as he eventually got? Isn't this - relatively speaking, anyway - a pretty team-friendly contract?

[Pakuni]

Duh, as they should, hey?

Nah.

[WhiteTrash]

You're wrong.

As for Pat Williams, I'm not gonna go back and try to find it, but weren't you concerned that the Bulls were gonna give him about twice as much as he eventually got? Isn't this - relatively speaking, anyway - a pretty team-friendly contract?

There were multiple reports that Williams was looking for 5yr, $200M+. I was never really concerned the Bulls would do that, so I don't think the Bulls get a "pat" on the back for not giving him what he wanted. (it does make you wonder how firm a grip Williams has on reality)

The deal does not move the needle for 90% of NBA teams or the fans. Due to the Bulls' ultra restrictive financial situation, deals for an often injured boarder-line starter on a bad team is a big deal.

The Bulls have nobody but themselves for creating a situation where they have to hit a homerun every time and get team friendly deals every time.

[Pakuni]

There were multiple reports that Williams was looking for 5yr, $200M+. I was never really concerned the Bulls would do that, so I don't think the Bulls get a "pat" on the back for not giving him what he wanted. (it does make you wonder how firm a grip Williams has on reality)

The deal does not move the needle for 90% of NBA teams or the fans. Due to the Bulls' ultra restrictive financial situation, deals for an often injured boarder-line starter on a bad team is a big deal.

The Bulls have nobody but themselves for creating a situation where they have to hit a homerun every time and get team friendly deals every time.

What's the Bulls "ultra restrictive financial situation?" They've been in the top half of the league in payroll the past three years. We can argue that they should always been in the top half - I would agree! - but they're not scraping by to hit the cap floor.

[MU82]

There were multiple reports that Williams was looking for 5yr, $200M+. I was never really concerned the Bulls would do that, so I don't think the Bulls get a "pat" on the back for not giving him what he wanted. (it does make you wonder how firm a grip Williams has on reality)

The deal does not move the needle for 90% of NBA teams or the fans. Due to the Bulls' ultra restrictive financial situation, deals for an often injured boarder-line starter on a bad team is a big deal.

The Bulls have nobody but themselves for creating a situation where they have to hit a homerun every time and get team friendly deals every time.

OK, thanks for the response. I look forward to your answer from Pakuni's follow-up question.

[cheebs09]

I think people get caught up in the numbers and don't really understand how much salaries have risen. Isn't Giannis making upwards of $50M a year?

As crazy as it might seem to us, I don't think $18M/year is a big sum in NBA circles.

[wadesworld]

I think people get caught up in the numbers and don't really understand how much salaries have risen. Isn't Giannis making upwards of $50M a year?

As crazy as it might seem to us, I don't think $18M/year is a big sum in NBA circles.

Exactly.  Especially for a 22 year old who has been fairly productive for someone that young.

[MuggsyB]

Another major pick-up for OKC with Hartenstein.

[WhiteTrash]

What's the Bulls "ultra restrictive financial situation?" They've been in the top half of the league in payroll the past three years. We can argue that they should always been in the top half - I would agree! - but they're not scraping by to hit the cap floor.

I'll say this. The Bulls made their major push for a Championship in the past 3 years. They will not go above the cap even during their Championship window.

(Now is a good time to questions how the Bulls thought they were in a Championship window, but that is what the FO sold the "all in" strategy as, 3 years ago.)

[Pakuni]

Exactly.  Especially for a 22 year old who has been fairly productive for someone that young.

Yep. Williams is younger than a bunch of guys who got drafted last week (Kolek, Knecht, Shannon, Scheierman, Reeves, Newton, Larsson).

Williams hasn't been great, but he's the kind of piece you keep - especially at a reasonable price - when you're (crosses fingers) rebuilding.