Saudis and sports

[MuggsyB]

Trans athletes have been competing forever with no issues, and many organizations have allowed/regulated/whatever you want to call it for years. This is purely political, in my opinion. It certainly isn't black and white, and I think it would help to discuss the topic with agreed upon terminology. This is a cloudy topic because of the many misunderstandings of terms.

Additionally, we like to assume athletic motivations of trans athletes, we like to assume sexual motivations of trans people. I also sometimes feel like we continue to degrade women and act condescendingly when we say trans women are unfairly advantaged. Just like we can come up with what ifs of a trans woman (who is a woman, I am merely qualifying as such to remain relatively clear in what I'm saying) beating cis women, I have no doubt Simone Biles will beat anyone, for example. Elite athleticism and mentality aren't determined by birth sex. It has been argued that some genetic qualities might prove to be an advantage (see Michael Phelps), but what if he never swam and was a pianist. His long fingers would be perfect.

I read recently about having a trans group when competing, or maybe having an overall male, female, and trans. I'm not sure how I feel about this yet, but people are trying to create inclusive solutions. I think we have to be mindful of how we discuss the discrimination of trans athletes as to me it is reminiscent of how we treated Black athletes in baseball, gay soldiers, women voters, and on and on. There is scientifically more than two sexes, from the beginning of time there have been multiple genders. This shouldn't be scary, infuriating, or weaponized, it should be enlightening, evolving, and lead to more compassion not more discrimination.

Have biological females that transition to males been competing in men's sports for a long time?

[Pakuni]

The issue is that it's not fair.

Define fairness in the context of sports.

[Pakuni]

Have biological females that transition to males been competing in men's sports for a long time?

Yes.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Have biological females that transition to males been competing in men's sports for a long time?

Mainly in East Germany.

[21Jumpstreet]

Have biological females that transition to males been competing in men's sports for a long time?

Of course

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Of course

Source?

[21Jumpstreet]

Source?

It is incredibly easy to find.

[The Sultan]

Source?

Example

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renée_Richards

[Pakuni]

Source?

dO YoUR oWn rESearCh

[HutchwasClutch]

Trans athletes have been competing forever with no issues, and many organizations have allowed/regulated/whatever you want to call it for years. This is purely political, in my opinion. It certainly isn't black and white, and I think it would help to discuss the topic with agreed upon terminology. This is a cloudy topic because of the many misunderstandings of terms.

Additionally, we like to assume athletic motivations of trans athletes, we like to assume sexual motivations of trans people. I also sometimes feel like we continue to degrade women and act condescendingly when we say trans women are unfairly advantaged. Just like we can come up with what ifs of a trans woman (who is a woman, I am merely qualifying as such to remain relatively clear in what I'm saying) beating cis women, I have no doubt Simone Biles will beat anyone, for example. Elite athleticism and mentality aren't determined by birth sex. It has been argued that some genetic qualities might prove to be an advantage (see Michael Phelps), but what if he never swam and was a pianist. His long fingers would be perfect.

I read recently about having a trans group when competing, or maybe having an overall male, female, and trans. I'm not sure how I feel about this yet, but people are trying to create inclusive solutions. I think we have to be mindful of how we discuss the discrimination of trans athletes as to me it is reminiscent of how we treated Black athletes in baseball, gay soldiers, women voters, and on and on. There is scientifically more than two sexes, from the beginning of time there have been multiple genders. This shouldn't be scary, infuriating, or weaponized, it should be enlightening, evolving, and lead to more compassion not more discrimination.

This is what we've come to, the most radical leftist thinking now accepted as being grounded in science! All in the name to virtue signal how much more compassionate you believe you are than anyone who doesn't believe this nonsense. 

[21Jumpstreet]

dO YoUR oWn rESearCh

Yeah, I don't know about that, and maybe I shouldn't have said it's incredibly easy to find and provided a link or two. Perhaps I wasn't being fair to Ziggy and should have just provided a list. I have to believe he was just asking for info, nothing more.

[The Sultan]

🤡

This is what we've come to, the most radical leftist thinking now accepted as being grounded in science! All in the name to virtue signal how much more compassionate you believe you are than anyone who doesn't believe this nonsense. 

"Virtue signaling" 😂😂😂

Anyway...

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

[21Jumpstreet]

🤡

This is what we've come to, the most radical leftist thinking now accepted as being grounded in science! All in the name to virtue signal how much more compassionate you believe you are than anyone who doesn't believe this nonsense.

Interesting response. I was candidly trying to take a different approach to a discussion. I'm neither radical nor leftist, but I can see how current political framework would make someone put another on an ever changing, nonsensical spectrum.

I've grown up and my teenage boys have grown up with people who are trans, so perhaps (and perhaps not) we have a different frame of reference. Not saying better or worse, just different. As I said, it's not black and white, but it should be a compassionate discussion not a political one. And honestly, perhaps I would have an entirely different thought if I had two teenage daughters, I don't know. Perhaps my friends with teenage daughters would refer to me as a clown, too. Perhaps I'm wrong about how I think about the trans topic.

[HutchwasClutch]

"Virtue signaling" 😂😂😂

Anyway...

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

Social engineering invented by leftists.  That's all this crap is. 

[HutchwasClutch]

https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2022/08/21/scientific-american-dedicates-itself-to-politics-not-science-refuses-to-publish-rebuttals-of-their-false-or-misleading-claims/

[The Sultan]

Social engineering invented by leftists.  That's all this crap is. 

"Science doesn't agree with my worldview shaped by politics, so I'm going to dismiss it by labelling it something I don't like because that's what simple people do."

Anyway you should read it. It's not "social engineering." It's based on genetic research and analysis.

[21Jumpstreet]

🤡

This is what we've come to, the most radical leftist thinking now accepted as being grounded in science! All in the name to virtue signal how much more compassionate you believe you are than anyone who doesn't believe this nonsense.

I will add, I saw an interesting photo from a friend I would put on your spectrum as right wing radical homophobe that was something like several trans women (women) and referring to getting their periods. Gotta be honest, when I saw it my first reaction was what?! That's ridiculous?! That's an insult to biological women who have to manage their periods?!

Then, I went and read some things. What I found was that trans women in fact do exhibit symptoms of a period. Do they bleed, of course not. Do they have some other emotional or psychosomatic symptoms associated with a period, yeah, they do. So, now I have a slightly different perspective, and now I know to ask what someone means by the terminology they use. It's not virtue signaling, I actually don't quite know what that means but I'll look it up, but it might be a way to have constructive dialog. But, who am I to say.

[dgies9156]

Oh good God (for you who believe it God).

Brother MU starts a discussion about the Saudis investing in golf and the possibility of "sportswashing."

Sister Chick makes a generic and quite legitimate point about women's athletics, for those of you who are fearful of seedy investment in sports.

The debate then degenerates into a discussion of the transgendered, who amount to about 0.46 percent of the US population.

I know this is Scoop and all, but this is lame even for Scoop.

[MuggsyB]

Oh good God (for you who believe it God).

Brother MU starts a discussion about the Saudis investing in golf and the possibility of "sportswashing."

Sister Chick makes a generic and quite legitimate point about women's athletics, for those of you who are fearful of seedy investment in sports.

The debate then degenerates into a discussion of the transgendered, who amount to about 0.46 percent of the US population.

I know this is Scoop and all, but this is lame even for Scoop.

Fair point brother dgies.

[21Jumpstreet]

Oh good God (for you who believe it God).

Brother MU starts a discussion about the Saudis investing in golf and the possibility of "sportswashing."

Sister Chick makes a generic and quite legitimate point about women's athletics, for those of you who are fearful of seedy investment in sports.

The debate then degenerates into a discussion of the transgendered, who amount to about 0.46 percent of the US population.

I know this is Scoop and all, but this is lame even for Scoop.

Fair

[4everwarriors]

How many y'all who have teenage daughters are ok with a teenage dude, who says he's trangenderin' and has his junk,  showerin' with your daughter, hey?

[SoCalEagle]

"Science doesn't agree with my worldview shaped by politics, so I'm going to dismiss it by labelling it something I don't like because that's what simple people do."

Anyway you should read it. It's not "social engineering." It's based on genetic research and analysis.

What's next, are we going to start boycotting sports like the Dodgers who support pride month?

Nevermind .....

[dgies9156]

How many y'all who have teenage daughters are ok with a teenage dude, who says he's trangenderin' and has his junk,  showerin' with your daughter, hey?

You've never met my daughter. Some dude -- any dude -- crawled in the shower with her in high school and she'd break 'em off with her bare hands. And then hold them up in front of the guy at eye level and say, "missing anything?"

Now back to the Saudis.

[21Jumpstreet]

How many y'all who have teenage daughters are ok with a teenage dude, who says he's trangenderin' and has his junk,  showerin' with your daughter, hey?

Perhaps another first question or two might be do we want teenagers showering together? Are there other considerations to making groups of showering teenagers in a public place more private for everyone?

To answer your question, not super comfortable with it, and I'd rather consider all the kids.

[Pakuni]

How many y'all who have teenage daughters are ok with a teenage dude, who says he's trangenderin' and has his junk,  showerin' with your daughter, hey?

Do high schools kids actually shower together these days? Doesn't happen at my kids' school. Didn't happen in my high school either.
I don't think any kids should be showering together. If you want to provide showers, build individual stalls and let kids decide if they want to use them or not.
Regardless, what does this have to do with transgender athletes competing within their chosen gender?