MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: MU82 on June 10, 2023, 09:24:21 AM
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I was gonna put this in the golf thread but it's really more about what might be the NEXT sports target for the Saudis.
The NYT's DealBook email newsletter had an interesting take on the subject, specifically about potential Saudi involvement (or even takeovers) in other sports like tennis and basketball:
When the Saudi Arabian-backed LIV Golf series announced an agreement to join with the PGA Tour on Tuesday, it shocked deal makers across the sports world.
“It’s been a mix of stunned and in disbelief,” Alex Michael, a managing director at the investment bank LionTree, told DealBook about the general reaction.
Industry insiders quickly moved on to wondering which sport could be next.
Saudi Arabia’s enormous sovereign wealth fund, which is known as the Public Investment Fund, or P.I.F., has an appetite for sports. It has made investments in WWE, Formula 1 and a national soccer league (for which the country created an enormous war chest to sign big stars like Lionel Messi, who turned down an offer this week).
But the kingdom’s history of human rights violations has been an obstacle to some deals in the United States. In 2019, the entertainment giant Endeavor returned the fund’s $400 million investment after the murder of the Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi. And until recently, the PGA Tour was eager to use Saudi Arabia’s record against it.
That moral concern seems to have been overridden by the PGA Tour’s business concerns. The deal with LIV Golf came together after the rival circuit picked up traction and lured players away with lofty purses, ultimately making it infeasible for the PGA to compete.
“The Saudis didn’t change history or change who they were,” said Lyle Ayes, chief executive of Verance Capital, which invests in sports. “The deal just made sense.”
Effectively a commercial partnership, the deal may open the door for more sports businesses to accept P.I.F. funds, Ayes said. (Critics would say that was one of Saudi Arabia’s goals in pursuing sports investments in the first place.)
It would be difficult to pull off the LIV Golf playbook in another sport. Baseball faces challenges that would make an investment in a rival league risky: Its fan base is aging, the regional sports model is collapsing, and there aren’t a lot of spare baseball stadiums big enough for a major-league team. A rival to the National Football League would require a large number of players, and past efforts to create competitor leagues have flopped.
The National Basketball Association might be the easiest team league to challenge. Basketball requires fewer players than baseball or football, and courts are fairly easy to find or build. But given how much U.S. players are already paid, it’s unclear what a rival league could offer.
Tennis is probably the best candidate for a rival tour. Like golf, it’s an individual sport, which makes it easier for P.I.F. to lure athletes with big checks. And while there’s a smaller cohort of stars to recruit than in golf, a rival league would need only about a dozen players for an elite tour. Some tennis stars, including fifth-ranked Stefanos Tsitsipas, have already played in Saudi Arabia at the Diriyah tennis exhibition. The threat of Saudi competition is likely one reason the WTA raised money from the private equity firm CVC Capital this year.
Not all options involve poaching athletes. Insiders say they expect the Saudis to begin investing in U.S. sports teams. The N.B.A. has already changed its rules to allow it. And while the N.F.L. doesn’t allow any institutional investors, many expect that to change soon, too.
And while the path didn’t seem available a couple of years ago, the most efficient route for P.I.F. to own a major sports series like the PGA Tour may now be to just acquire one.
“It certainly would be easier to come through the front door,” LionTree’s Michael said. “If the PGA had, from the get-go, said, ‘Hey, you can value us at some massive premium to what we think we’re valued and give us $3 billion,’ we would have never had LIV Golf.”
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NBA commissioner Adam Silver, speaking on the Dan Patrick show during the Finals, said he wasn't surprised by the golf merger. He also noted that golf and basketball are "global sports."
“When the Saudis invest in sports, it gets outsized attention. Now, I don’t want to complain about that because we want to get outsized attention. On the other hand, somebody could go down the list there. They are investors in some of our largest American corporations. Some of the most well-known brands have investments from them. And I also think it’s a two-edged sword.
“I hear the comments about sportswashing. On the other hand, you’re talking about it, others are talking about it. … In the same way the World Cup — the football World Cup, soccer World Cup — brought enormous attention to Qatar. I think people learn about these countries, learn about what’s happening in the world in ways they otherwise wouldn’t. So I think the media does its job.
“But … now talking specifically about the NBA, where we’re such a global sport, I think people are a little too dismissive these days about the benefits that come from the commonality around sports. That with a sport like basketball — our finals are distributed virtually everywhere in the world, the sport is played everywhere in the world — it’s an opportunity to bring people together.”
The NBA changed its rules last year to allow sovereign wealth funds and private equity funds to buy minority stakes in NBA teams -- no more than 20%. The Athletic says that so far, no sovereign wealth fund has taken a stake in a team.
“We allow funds to invest in teams but not control teams, not to have influence over teams,” Silver said. “So to own an NBA team there has to be an individual with a certain percent of the team to control it.”
That has opened the door for potential investments or attempts at investment by PIF or other sovereign wealth funds, which could bring massive capital and controversy for the league. Many of the largest funds worldwide are associated with countries that have been accused of human rights abuses.
The NBA has grown its business relationship with the United Arab Emirates in recent years, playing exhibition games there this past season. The UAE has been condemned by international human rights groups for its repressive anti-LGBTQ laws.
It's a fascinating topic. Was what happened with the PGA Tour just the tip of the iceberg? Or would it be too difficult for the Saudis to get entrenched in other major sports leagues?
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I’m more concerned about the documents that went from Mar-a-largo to Bedminster and the disappeared after the LIV event.
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I think one of the issues that Saudis and other petro-states face with investing in American sports is that it's hard to buy your way to a title with CBAs, salary caps and luxury taxes in place. Part of what they want to do is not just make a sound investment, but to "sports wash." They want to rehab their image by tying it to sports glory. Buying 20% of the Charlotte Hornets may be a great financial investment, but it doesn't do the rehab work.
Also, I've been thinking about what I would do if I were a long-suffering fan of a team like Newcastle United. Would I be happy that my team is now owned by the Saudis? I guess I would prefer "traditional" ownership, but now my team is in the Champions League instead of hoping for year-to-year survival. And if they weren't going to invest in my team, they certainly were going to invest somewhere - like Leeds or Aston Villa - so it might as well be my team right?
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I don’t care who the owners of Sports teams are . I just enjoy watching talented athletes compete.
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If you want to follow teams that the Saudis aren't interested in, there's always women's sports.
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In before the lock
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I think one of the issues that Saudis and other petro-states face with investing in American sports is that it's hard to buy your way to a title with CBAs, salary caps and luxury taxes in place. Part of what they want to do is not just make a sound investment, but to "sports wash." They want to rehab their image by tying it to sports glory. Buying 20% of the Charlotte Hornets may be a great financial investment, but it doesn't do the rehab work.
Yea, even if you do buy a title (Man City), the focus isn't so much on the ownerships for any rehab. Its not like people are suddenly thinking differently about Emrati royals cause City is killing it.
Golf was interesting cause there is tons of money, but among players, the BIG money was concentrated at the top. So there was opportunity elsewhere. But the NBA and the MLB, you have guys on near 9 figure deals that aren't household names. I can't see a startup basketball league, no matter how much money, competing. China tried, others have tried, there is just too much of a chasm after the NBA and the Euroleague.
Also, I've been thinking about what I would do if I were a long-suffering fan of a team like Newcastle United. Would I be happy that my team is now owned by the Saudis? I guess I would prefer "traditional" ownership, but now my team is in the Champions League instead of hoping for year-to-year survival. And if they weren't going to invest in my team, they certainly were going to invest somewhere - like Leeds or Aston Villa - so it might as well be my team right?
I would wager that 95% of Newcastle fans couldn't care less. I don't think long suffering City fans have lost a wink of sleep going from after thoughts to utter domination.
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Yea, even if you do buy a title (Man City), the focus isn't so much on the ownerships for any rehab. Its not like people are suddenly thinking differently about Emrati royals cause City is killing it.
Golf was interesting cause there is tons of money, but among players, the BIG money was concentrated at the top. So there was opportunity elsewhere. But the NBA and the MLB, you have guys on near 9 figure deals that aren't household names. I can't see a startup basketball league, no matter how much money, competing. China tried, others have tried, there is just too much of a chasm after the NBA and the Euroleague.
[quote author=The Sultan of Semantics link=topic=64842.msg1555975#msg1555975 date=1686409064
Also, I've been thinking about what I would do if I were a long-suffering fan of a team like Newcastle United. Would I be happy that my team is now owned by the Saudis? I guess I would prefer "traditional" ownership, but now my team is in the Champions League instead of hoping for year-to-year survival. And if they weren't going to invest in my team, they certainly were going to invest somewhere - like Leeds or Aston Villa - so it might as well be my team right?
I would wager that 95% of Newcastle fans couldn't care less. I don't think long suffering City fans have lost a wink of sleep going from after thoughts to utter domination.
I have no idea what Euroleague ownership rules are, though I could see a Saudi-bought team challenging for titles there. But I agree that significant entry into the NBA or another North American major-league team sport would be highly unlikely in the foreseeable future. But I'm starting to think "never say never." Ownership rules can be changed, and have been changed quite recently when it comes to the NBA.
I'm not sure enough people care about tennis in the U.S. for it to really matter if the Saudis got involved there.
Golf really was the perfect avenue for them to do their sportswashing, and they pounced.
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Herman
I am with you. I do not care who owns any team or league.
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I think one of the issues that Saudis and other petro-states face with investing in American sports is that it's hard to buy your way to a title with CBAs, salary caps and luxury taxes in place. Part of what they want to do is not just make a sound investment, but to "sports wash." They want to rehab their image by tying it to sports glory. Buying 20% of the Charlotte Hornets may be a great financial investment, but it doesn't do the rehab work.
Also, I've been thinking about what I would do if I were a long-suffering fan of a team like Newcastle United. Would I be happy that my team is now owned by the Saudis? I guess I would prefer "traditional" ownership, but now my team is in the Champions League instead of hoping for year-to-year survival. And if they weren't going to invest in my team, they certainly were going to invest somewhere - like Leeds or Aston Villa - so it might as well be my team right?
Toon army has two words -
(https://www.thesportsbank.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/jay-cutler-dont-care.jpg)
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It’s why sportswashing works
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If you want to follow teams that the Saudis aren't interested in, there's always women's sports.
..especially any with a trans women athlete.
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..especially any with a trans women athlete.
You mean a man ?
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Herman
I am with you. I do not care who owns any team or league.
I get your point, but damn, I was sure glad when George Steinbrenner bought the Yankees from CBS. Now Hal and Hank are another story.
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You mean a man ?
I see what you did there.
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..especially any with a trans women athlete.
Yup, they’ve infiltrated women’s sports at every levels and completely destroyed them.
/wanking motion
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If you want to follow teams that the Saudis aren't interested in, there's always women's sports.
Saudi Arabia is already active in Women’s golf and tennis and soon to be more. Visit Saudi was an initial sponsor of the FIFA 2023 Women’s World Cup Soccer before a big backlash changed that.
https://www.arabnews.com/node/2080616/sport
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We should annex Saudi Arabia. And a bunch of other countries. :)
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Yup, they’ve infiltrated women’s sports at every levels and completely destroyed them.
/wanking motion
I did say a as in one.
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Toon army has two words -
(https://www.thesportsbank.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/jay-cutler-dont-care.jpg)
And that’s pretty much where I would land at the end of the day.
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Yup, they’ve infiltrated women’s sports at every levels and completely destroyed them.
/wanking motion
Uncle Rico wanking to deez dudes is expected
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Saudi Arabia is already active in Women’s golf and tennis and soon to be more. Visit Saudi was an initial sponsor of the FIFA 2023 Women’s World Cup Soccer before a big backlash changed that.
https://www.arabnews.com/node/2080616/sport
Interesting. Are members of the Saudi women's team allowed to drive themselves to practice? Or be in a room with a male coach?
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Uncle Rico wanking to deez dudes is expected
Poor JB. Boogeyman everywhere. World must be terrifying for you. Eat a steak and relax
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..especially any with a trans women athlete.
those aren't "women" sports!! XX = female prove me wrong!
if i were a woman, i'd be majorly p!ssed(understatement of the century) thinking it's men once again trying to push women back down. it has taken them 100 years or more depending on how you identify the suffragette movement only to have some XY dudes in disguise erase it all in a few years.
hey, here's an idea-have the saudis start up a tranny league of sports. that would show they're real "tolerance" eyn'a?
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those aren't "women" sports!! XX = female prove me wrong!
if i were a woman, i'd be majorly p!ssed(understatement of the century) thinking it's men once again trying to push women back down. it has taken them 100 years or more depending on how you identify the suffragette movement only to have some XY dudes in disguise erase it all in a few years.
hey, here's an idea-have the saudis start up a tranny league of sports. that would show they're real "tolerance" eyn'a?
Shocking that this is where you fall on this issue.
Kudos to pretending to care about women's rights though.
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Shocking that this is where you fall on this issue.
Kudos to pretending to care about women's rights though.
A man competing in women’s sports isn’t fair. Not sure what’s controversial about it.
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A man competing in women’s sports isn’t fair. Not sure what’s controversial about it.
Men transitioning to women for sports glory is an incredibly minor issue. And it's one mainly used as reason to justify the current bullying of trans-people by certain segments of our society.
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Men transitioning to women for sports glory is an incredibly minor issue. And it's one mainly used as reason to justify the current bullying of trans-people by certain segments of our society.
The issue is that it’s not fair.
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The issue is that it’s not fair.
c'est la vie
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Men transitioning to women for sports glory is an incredibly minor issue. And it's one mainly used as reason to justify the current bullying of trans-people by certain segments of our society.
The entire trans issue (statistically speaking) is a minor issue. I doubt men transition to women for sports glory anyway - it’s a byproduct of the laws of nature. The issue may be incredibly minor to you but it isn’t to the “born female” athletes it affects. Anyone who supports women’s sports or even just fairness in general should acknowledge that - while also condemning those who use the issue as an excuse for bullying.
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The entire trans issue (statistically speaking) is a minor issue. I doubt men transition to women for sports glory anyway - it’s a byproduct of the laws of nature. The issue may be incredibly minor to you but it isn’t to the “born female” athletes it affects. Anyone who supports women’s sports or even just fairness in general should acknowledge that - while also condemning those who use the issue as an excuse for bullying.
I am all for setting standards of various sorts to keep things "fair" for female athletes. I don't know enough to know what those standards should be. Honestly it just isn't all that important to me compared to the overall bullying of trans people.
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I am all for setting standards of various sorts to keep things "fair" for female athletes. I don't know enough to know what those standards should be. Honestly it just isn't all that important to me compared to the overall bullying of trans people.
I have no issue with trans people and I completely agree the athletics issue turned into a cable news flashpoint which unfairly targeted trans people en masse.
But if we’re talking purely about trans people competing in athletics, it isn’t right to allow a biological man compete in women’s sports. Danny almonte identified as a 12 year old but he was really 15 in the LLWS. It’s the same thing.
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As I said, I am all for setting appropriate standards. I have no idea what those should be.
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As I said, I am all for setting appropriate standards. I have no idea what those should be.
Appropriate standards for what? Do you believe biological males should be allowed to complete in women’s sports? Yes or No.
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As I said, I am all for setting appropriate standards. I have no idea what those should be.
So you want fair play but you have no idea what fair play looks like? IOW, you see no solution possible or are OK with whatever.
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Appropriate standards for what? Do you believe biological males should be allowed to complete in women’s sports? Yes or No.
After undergoing transitioning, I would say "yes" under appropriate standards. Again, I have no idea what those would be. But I wouldn't give an absolute "no" because life in general isn't so black and white.
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After undergoing transitioning, I would say "yes" under appropriate standards. Again, I have no idea what those would be. But I wouldn't give an absolute "no" because life in general isn't so black and white.
WTH is appropriate standards? What age for starters? If Carlos Alcaraz identified himself as a female tomorrow would you allow him to hit the WTA circuit after a year?
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WTH is appropriate standards? What age for starters? If Carlos Alcaraz identified himself as a female tomorrow would you allow him to hit the WTA circuit after a year?
JFC, do you ever f*cking read? I have literally said that I have no idea what those standards should be THREE TIMES in the last hour.
I am all for setting standards of various sorts to keep things "fair" for female athletes. I don't know enough to know what those standards should be. Honestly it just isn't all that important to me compared to the overall bullying of trans people.
As I said, I am all for setting appropriate standards. I have no idea what those should be.
After undergoing transitioning, I would say "yes" under appropriate standards. Again, I have no idea what those would be. But I wouldn't give an absolute "no" because life in general isn't so black and white.
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JFC, do you ever f*cking read? I have literally said that I have no idea what those standards should be THREE TIMES in the last hour.
I know that whatever you're trying to communicate is ridiculous. Either you believe they should be allowed to compete as biological males in women's sports or you don't.
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I know that whatever you're trying to communicate is ridiculous. Either you believe they should be allowed to compete as biological males in women's sports or you don't.
LOL really?
After transitioning, I am fine with people who were male at birth to participate in women's sports under certain standards. However I have no idea what those standards should be.
Is that really that hard to understand?
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LOL really?
After transitioning, I am fine with people who were male at birth to participate in women's sports under certain standards. However I have no idea what those standards should be.
Okay you're cool if they transition. So if someone comes along in the WNBA or WTA that are biological males, transition, and have games comparable to Jamal Murray and Carlos Alcaraz that's perfectly fine and won't bother you at all?
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Mugs your reading comprehension really sucks. Go back and read what I’ve written and re-enter the conversation when you understand my point. Otherwise you’re just wasting everyone’s time.
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WTH is appropriate standards? What age for starters? If Carlos Alcaraz identified himself as a female tomorrow would you allow him to hit the WTA circuit after a year?
This isn't what I was expecting when I clicked on a thread entitled"Saudis and sports."
Anyhow, Mugs, you may be surprised to learn that most sports associations, including the WTA, have standards. I've linked the WTA's for you below, as I'm sure you're very interested in that information.
Your Carlos Alcaraz scenario is, of course, ridiculous on its face and is the kind of fearmongering we see all too often. It calls into question whether you're trying to have an actual discussion here or just "own the libs."
https://wta-prod-photo-files.s3.amazonaws.com/wta/document/2019/09/16/9f44ee14-af76-4d45-b6b7-6ecb27339a35/WTA-Gender-Participation-Policy.pdf
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Uncle Rico wanking to deez dudes is expected
Every accusation is a confession.
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Men transitioning to women for sports glory is an incredibly minor issue. And it's one mainly used as reason to justify the current bullying of trans-people by certain segments of our society.
maybe how you think, but you're conflating 2 issues-men in women sports and bullying
i am addressing men in women sports-period
sorry to deflate your ego, but i do respect women competing with women just as i respect men vs men
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So you want fair play but you have no idea what fair play looks like? IOW, you see no solution possible or are OK with whatever.
Why do you keep pretending that there are no standards?
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As I said, I am all for setting appropriate standards. I have no idea what those should be.
what the hell is this supposed to mean?? that's gotta hurt sitting on that fence all day or until someone comes up with something you may be able to agree with
until then, you ain't doing anyone any favors
oh and i amm with everyone's opinions on this board too...whatever those may be
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why do you think there are weight classes in wrestling, boxing, etc?
pee wee football-they don't let anyone over a certain weight, carry the ball for fear of injury
we can go on and on
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what the hell is this supposed to mean?? that's gotta hurt sitting on that fence all day or until someone comes up with something you may be able to agree with
until then, you ain't doing anyone any favors
oh and i amm with everyone's opinions on this board too...whatever those may be
Lol. Yeah. I should shoot my mouth off about topics where I lack an understanding.
Or maybe I should just watch Newsmax to tell me what to think…you know…the “rocket way.” That would be better.
Anyway, the WTA standards that Pakuni posted up above seem to make sense to me. That’s what I am talking about.
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Trans athletes have been competing forever with no issues, and many organizations have allowed/regulated/whatever you want to call it for years. This is purely political, in my opinion. It certainly isn’t black and white, and I think it would help to discuss the topic with agreed upon terminology. This is a cloudy topic because of the many misunderstandings of terms.
Additionally, we like to assume athletic motivations of trans athletes, we like to assume sexual motivations of trans people. I also sometimes feel like we continue to degrade women and act condescendingly when we say trans women are unfairly advantaged. Just like we can come up with what ifs of a trans woman (who is a woman, I am merely qualifying as such to remain relatively clear in what I’m saying) beating cis women, I have no doubt Simone Biles will beat anyone, for example. Elite athleticism and mentality aren’t determined by birth sex. It has been argued that some genetic qualities might prove to be an advantage (see Michael Phelps), but what if he never swam and was a pianist. His long fingers would be perfect.
I read recently about having a trans group when competing, or maybe having an overall male, female, and trans. I’m not sure how I feel about this yet, but people are trying to create inclusive solutions. I think we have to be mindful of how we discuss the discrimination of trans athletes as to me it is reminiscent of how we treated Black athletes in baseball, gay soldiers, women voters, and on and on. There is scientifically more than two sexes, from the beginning of time there have been multiple genders. This shouldn’t be scary, infuriating, or weaponized, it should be enlightening, evolving, and lead to more compassion not more discrimination.
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Trans athletes have been competing forever with no issues, and many organizations have allowed/regulated/whatever you want to call it for years. This is purely political, in my opinion. It certainly isn’t black and white, and I think it would help to discuss the topic with agreed upon terminology. This is a cloudy topic because of the many misunderstandings of terms.
Additionally, we like to assume athletic motivations of trans athletes, we like to assume sexual motivations of trans people. I also sometimes feel like we continue to degrade women and act condescendingly when we say trans women are unfairly advantaged. Just like we can come up with what ifs of a trans woman (who is a woman, I am merely qualifying as such to remain relatively clear in what I’m saying) beating cis women, I have no doubt Simone Biles will beat anyone, for example. Elite athleticism and mentality aren’t determined by birth sex. It has been argued that some genetic qualities might prove to be an advantage (see Michael Phelps), but what if he never swam and was a pianist. His long fingers would be perfect.
I read recently about having a trans group when competing, or maybe having an overall male, female, and trans. I’m not sure how I feel about this yet, but people are trying to create inclusive solutions. I think we have to be mindful of how we discuss the discrimination of trans athletes as to me it is reminiscent of how we treated Black athletes in baseball, gay soldiers, women voters, and on and on. There is scientifically more than two sexes, from the beginning of time there have been multiple genders. This shouldn’t be scary, infuriating, or weaponized, it should be enlightening, evolving, and lead to more compassion not more discrimination.
Have biological females that transition to males been competing in men's sports for a long time?
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The issue is that it’s not fair.
Define fairness in the context of sports.
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Have biological females that transition to males been competing in men's sports for a long time?
Yes.
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Have biological females that transition to males been competing in men's sports for a long time?
Mainly in East Germany.
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Have biological females that transition to males been competing in men's sports for a long time?
Of course
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Of course
Source?
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Source?
It is incredibly easy to find.
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Source?
Example
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renée_Richards
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Source?
dO YoUR oWn rESearCh
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Trans athletes have been competing forever with no issues, and many organizations have allowed/regulated/whatever you want to call it for years. This is purely political, in my opinion. It certainly isn’t black and white, and I think it would help to discuss the topic with agreed upon terminology. This is a cloudy topic because of the many misunderstandings of terms.
Additionally, we like to assume athletic motivations of trans athletes, we like to assume sexual motivations of trans people. I also sometimes feel like we continue to degrade women and act condescendingly when we say trans women are unfairly advantaged. Just like we can come up with what ifs of a trans woman (who is a woman, I am merely qualifying as such to remain relatively clear in what I’m saying) beating cis women, I have no doubt Simone Biles will beat anyone, for example. Elite athleticism and mentality aren’t determined by birth sex. It has been argued that some genetic qualities might prove to be an advantage (see Michael Phelps), but what if he never swam and was a pianist. His long fingers would be perfect.
I read recently about having a trans group when competing, or maybe having an overall male, female, and trans. I’m not sure how I feel about this yet, but people are trying to create inclusive solutions. I think we have to be mindful of how we discuss the discrimination of trans athletes as to me it is reminiscent of how we treated Black athletes in baseball, gay soldiers, women voters, and on and on. There is scientifically more than two sexes, from the beginning of time there have been multiple genders. This shouldn’t be scary, infuriating, or weaponized, it should be enlightening, evolving, and lead to more compassion not more discrimination.
This is what we’ve come to, the most radical leftist thinking now accepted as being grounded in science! All in the name to virtue signal how much more compassionate you believe you are than anyone who doesn’t believe this nonsense.
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dO YoUR oWn rESearCh
Yeah, I don’t know about that, and maybe I shouldn’t have said it’s incredibly easy to find and provided a link or two. Perhaps I wasn’t being fair to Ziggy and should have just provided a list. I have to believe he was just asking for info, nothing more.
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🤡
This is what we’ve come to, the most radical leftist thinking now accepted as being grounded in science! All in the name to virtue signal how much more compassionate you believe you are than anyone who doesn’t believe this nonsense.
“Virtue signaling” 😂😂😂
Anyway…
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/
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🤡
This is what we’ve come to, the most radical leftist thinking now accepted as being grounded in science! All in the name to virtue signal how much more compassionate you believe you are than anyone who doesn’t believe this nonsense.
Interesting response. I was candidly trying to take a different approach to a discussion. I’m neither radical nor leftist, but I can see how current political framework would make someone put another on an ever changing, nonsensical spectrum.
I’ve grown up and my teenage boys have grown up with people who are trans, so perhaps (and perhaps not) we have a different frame of reference. Not saying better or worse, just different. As I said, it’s not black and white, but it should be a compassionate discussion not a political one. And honestly, perhaps I would have an entirely different thought if I had two teenage daughters, I don’t know. Perhaps my friends with teenage daughters would refer to me as a clown, too. Perhaps I’m wrong about how I think about the trans topic.
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“Virtue signaling” 😂😂😂
Anyway…
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/
Social engineering invented by leftists. That’s all this crap is.
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https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2022/08/21/scientific-american-dedicates-itself-to-politics-not-science-refuses-to-publish-rebuttals-of-their-false-or-misleading-claims/
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Social engineering invented by leftists. That’s all this crap is.
“Science doesn’t agree with my worldview shaped by politics, so I’m going to dismiss it by labelling it something I don’t like because that’s what simple people do.”
Anyway you should read it. It’s not “social engineering.” It’s based on genetic research and analysis.
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🤡
This is what we’ve come to, the most radical leftist thinking now accepted as being grounded in science! All in the name to virtue signal how much more compassionate you believe you are than anyone who doesn’t believe this nonsense.
I will add, I saw an interesting photo from a friend I would put on your spectrum as right wing radical homophobe that was something like several trans women (women) and referring to getting their periods. Gotta be honest, when I saw it my first reaction was what?! That’s ridiculous?! That’s an insult to biological women who have to manage their periods?!
Then, I went and read some things. What I found was that trans women in fact do exhibit symptoms of a period. Do they bleed, of course not. Do they have some other emotional or psychosomatic symptoms associated with a period, yeah, they do. So, now I have a slightly different perspective, and now I know to ask what someone means by the terminology they use. It’s not virtue signaling, I actually don’t quite know what that means but I’ll look it up, but it might be a way to have constructive dialog. But, who am I to say.
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Oh good God (for you who believe it God).
Brother MU starts a discussion about the Saudis investing in golf and the possibility of "sportswashing."
Sister Chick makes a generic and quite legitimate point about women's athletics, for those of you who are fearful of seedy investment in sports.
The debate then degenerates into a discussion of the transgendered, who amount to about 0.46 percent of the US population.
I know this is Scoop and all, but this is lame even for Scoop.
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Oh good God (for you who believe it God).
Brother MU starts a discussion about the Saudis investing in golf and the possibility of "sportswashing."
Sister Chick makes a generic and quite legitimate point about women's athletics, for those of you who are fearful of seedy investment in sports.
The debate then degenerates into a discussion of the transgendered, who amount to about 0.46 percent of the US population.
I know this is Scoop and all, but this is lame even for Scoop.
Fair point brother dgies.
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Oh good God (for you who believe it God).
Brother MU starts a discussion about the Saudis investing in golf and the possibility of "sportswashing."
Sister Chick makes a generic and quite legitimate point about women's athletics, for those of you who are fearful of seedy investment in sports.
The debate then degenerates into a discussion of the transgendered, who amount to about 0.46 percent of the US population.
I know this is Scoop and all, but this is lame even for Scoop.
Fair
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How many y'all who have teenage daughters are ok with a teenage dude, who says he's trangenderin' and has his junk, showerin' with your daughter, hey?
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“Science doesn’t agree with my worldview shaped by politics, so I’m going to dismiss it by labelling it something I don’t like because that’s what simple people do.”
Anyway you should read it. It’s not “social engineering.” It’s based on genetic research and analysis.
What's next, are we going to start boycotting sports like the Dodgers who support pride month?
Nevermind .....
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How many y'all who have teenage daughters are ok with a teenage dude, who says he's trangenderin' and has his junk, showerin' with your daughter, hey?
You've never met my daughter. Some dude -- any dude -- crawled in the shower with her in high school and she'd break 'em off with her bare hands. And then hold them up in front of the guy at eye level and say, "missing anything?"
Now back to the Saudis.
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How many y'all who have teenage daughters are ok with a teenage dude, who says he's trangenderin' and has his junk, showerin' with your daughter, hey?
Perhaps another first question or two might be do we want teenagers showering together? Are there other considerations to making groups of showering teenagers in a public place more private for everyone?
To answer your question, not super comfortable with it, and I’d rather consider all the kids.
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How many y'all who have teenage daughters are ok with a teenage dude, who says he's trangenderin' and has his junk, showerin' with your daughter, hey?
Do high schools kids actually shower together these days? Doesn't happen at my kids' school. Didn't happen in my high school either.
I don't think any kids should be showering together. If you want to provide showers, build individual stalls and let kids decide if they want to use them or not.
Regardless, what does this have to do with transgender athletes competing within their chosen gender?
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Define fairness in the context of sports.
Certain basic parameters laid out from the jump. Men play with men and women play with women.
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In before the lock
3…2…
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Certain basic parameters laid out from the jump. Men play with men and women play with women.
Doesn't answer the question. This is how you think you'd achieve fairness. I'm asking how you define fairness.
What makes this "fair?"
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Doesn't answer the question. This is how you think you'd achieve fairness. I'm asking how you define fairness.
What makes this "fair?"
You really need an explanation why men and women compete in different spheres ?
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Do high schools kids actually shower together these days? Doesn't happen at my kids' school. Didn't happen in my high school either.
I don't think any kids should be showering together. If you want to provide showers, build individual stalls and let kids decide if they want to use them or not.
Regardless, what does this have to do with transgender athletes competing within their chosen gender?
Back in the day it was a thing after gym class. That is where the all the Johnson comparisons start.
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The title of this thread is Saudi’s and Sports. I’m sure MU82 was hoping for a different direction than the one it has taken. Transgenders and sports can be another thread.
How do all of you feel about Saudi’s as possible owners, with their crushing of lives, human rights and involvement in terrorist activities? We saw how Sterling, Sarver and Snyder (hmm… all begin with S…Just like Saudi, but I digress) were run off for much lesser but still unacceptable behavior. Isn’t the way the Saudi’s engage in hate and prejudice even worse? I love the game of golf and their involvement will not affect me in the least, however, watching golf on TV just became a much lower priority.
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You really need an explanation why men and women compete in different spheres ?
I'm just asking a question, panda. You're free to continue avoiding it.
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Back in the day it was a thing after gym class. That is where the all the Johnson comparisons start.
I'll take your word for it.
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I'm just asking a question, panda. You're free to continue avoiding it.
i consider someone who needs an explanation why men and women participate in different competitions to be remarkably stupid so Feel free to make your point…
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i consider someone who needs an explanation why men and women participate in different competitions to be remarkably stupid so Feel free to make your point…
It's OK if you don't want to answer the question. No need to reply further. Enjoy your Sunday.
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The title of this thread is Saudi’s and Sports. I’m sure MU82 was hoping for a different direction than the one it has taken. Transgenders and sports can be another thread.
How do all of you feel about Saudi’s as possible owners, with their crushing of lives, human rights and involvement in terrorist activities? We saw how Sterling, Sarver and Snyder (hmm… all begin with S…Just like Saudi, but I digress) were run off for much lesser but still unacceptable behavior. Isn’t the way the Saudi’s engage in hate and prejudice even worse? I love the game of golf and their involvement will not affect me in the least, however, watching golf on TV just became a much lower priority.
If a team I support were to be purchased by the Saudis, I would no longer support that team. Not even a difficult decision for me. I don't judge those who feel otherwise.
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I think the Saudi situation is a difficult one for me. I hesitate to say I’d boycott or disavow anything related to them in sports, my guess is they are involved everywhere with everything in some way. Do we add China? Russia? India? Any European country with a sordid past or present? The USA?
It has been well discussed that the Saudis are merely sportswashing, I get it. I don’t like their treatment of women, I don’t like their involvement in terrorism, I don’t like their control over oil. I bet someone might think, that’s the same things you could say about any powerful country including the USA.
Would I choose to support a Saudi futbol team? No, not explicitly. If the Saudis bought my beloved Sheffield Wednesday, I honestly would probably still support the Owls. If the PIF invests in the Heat, yeah, I’ll probably still go to the Heat games. I’ll still occasionally watch the PGA, although I don’t watch that much now. If the Saudi’s bought a WNBA team, it would raise an eyebrow for me, although I guess I would have to ask is it good or bad for the women. I’d probably ask the women/hear what they had to say about it.
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Do high schools kids actually shower together these days? Doesn't happen at my kids' school. Didn't happen in my high school either.
It did, it’s just that you and your chess club buddies didn’t break a sweat and didn’t need to shower after “competition”.
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21jump-you bring up some very interesting points and answer questions in a very non interrogating way and/or aggressive manner. speaking for myself here, but maybe others as well, it promotes good thought and quite possibly good honest responses as opposed to reactions i appreciate and respect your input.
just because someone believes differently doesn't make them a " 'phobe" i have a niece whom we have been going thru the process for a few years now, of should she or shouldn't she go full trans. my son's wife's sister is now a "brother" and the other sister is a lesbian. no this isn't a "my best friend is a ______" statement, but i do have a more intimate relationship with the subject than many here would understand
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It did, it’s just that you and your chess club buddies didn’t break a sweat and didn’t need to shower after “competition”.
You're bad at this.
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It did, it’s just that you and your chess club buddies didn’t break a sweat and didn’t need to shower after “competition”.
Cmon, beej. We all know that the mighty pakuni was the captain of his forensics team. Probably took part in spelling bees too.
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21jump-you bring up some very interesting points and answer questions in a very non interrogating way and/or aggressive manner. speaking for myself here, but maybe others as well, it promotes good thought and quite possibly good honest responses as opposed to reactions i appreciate and respect your input.
just because someone believes differently doesn't make them a " 'phobe" i have a niece whom we have been going thru the process for a few years now, of should she or shouldn't she go full trans. my son's wife's sister is now a "brother" and the other sister is a lesbian. no this isn't a "my best friend is a ______" statement, but i do have a more intimate relationship with the subject than many here would understand
Appreciate that Rocket, I do try (and fail) to ask reasonable questions and keep my judgment at bay the best I can. I’m an emotional person, so that can be tough, and I do let my arrogance get the better of me.
I agree, different thought does not mean phobe as you put it. For me personally, I don’t understand the at best dismissal and at worst outright hatred for say trans/gay/queer people and lifestyle. I firmly understand the religious piece, that is my dad and his gay sister/my aunt (like you, not trying to pull I have a gay friend move), what I don’t understand is why that is the “right” belief. Why can’t there be multiple beliefs and mutual respect. No, I don’t mean white supremacy or racism, I mean it’s okay for someone to not feel the gay lifestyle is best for them while also fully supporting those who do. There is nothing to be afraid of here.
Anyway, as I’ve gotten older, I really do try to listen to everyone and trust them and believe they are good people first. Then, I try to ask questions, try to find some commonality. For example, the friend I mentioned earlier who would be described as radical right wing homophobe, maybe racist, full Trump supporter is someone I pretty strongly disagree with (to be clear, I strongly disagree with full Biden supporters, really any full politician supporters) and even let myself get frustrated with. But, we have kids who were on the same robotics team together, who just finished their freshmen years at college, we both would do anything for our kids and each other’s kids.
I’ve learned my world is pretty small, my knowledge is pretty limited, my opinion is just that and we all have and should be respected for having one first. We don’t have to agree on a specific issue, but I am pretty sure we would all agree we want as many people to have as many opportunities to live the best, safest possible lives they can. I think it really comes down to how someone views humanity. I believe strongly that people are good at their cores, and fears, circumstances, and choices might change that on the surface.
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If a team I support were to be purchased by the Saudis, I would no longer support that team. Not even a difficult decision for me. I don't judge those who feel otherwise.
How about one purchased by a Catholic?
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Cmon, beej. We all know that the mighty pakuni was the captain of his forensics team. Probably took part in spelling bees too.
Weird way of saying "Pakuni is smarter than we are"... but you're not wrong about that.
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How about one purchased by a Catholic?
As long as it's not one of the rape-y ones.
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Appreciate that Rocket, I do try (and fail) to ask reasonable questions and keep my judgment at bay the best I can. I’m an emotional person, so that can be tough, and I do let my arrogance get the better of me.
I agree, different thought does not mean phobe as you put it. For me personally, I don’t understand the at best dismissal and at worst outright hatred for say trans/gay/queer people and lifestyle. I firmly understand the religious piece, that is my dad and his gay sister/my aunt (like you, not trying to pull I have a gay friend move), what I don’t understand is why that is the “right” belief. Why can’t there be multiple beliefs and mutual respect. No, I don’t mean white supremacy or racism, I mean it’s okay for someone to not feel the gay lifestyle is best for them while also fully supporting those who do. There is nothing to be afraid of here.
Anyway, as I’ve gotten older, I really do try to listen to everyone and trust them and believe they are good people first. Then, I try to ask questions, try to find some commonality. For example, the friend I mentioned earlier who would be described as radical right wing homophobe, maybe racist, full Trump supporter is someone I pretty strongly disagree with (to be clear, I strongly disagree with full Biden supporters, really any full politician supporters) and even let myself get frustrated with. But, we have kids who were on the same robotics team together, who just finished their freshmen years at college, we both would do anything for our kids and each other’s kids.
I’ve learned my world is pretty small, my knowledge is pretty limited, my opinion is just that and we all have and should be respected for having one first. We don’t have to agree on a specific issue, but I am pretty sure we would all agree we want as many people to have as many opportunities to live the best, safest possible lives they can. I think it really comes down to how someone views humanity. I believe strongly that people are good at their cores, and fears, circumstances, and choices might change that on the surface.
this post should be in the top 5 of the scoop-dom archives!
love your balanced thought process 21jump
i know there are many here on this board who may disagree on "stuff" and thru the anonymity of the internet, speak differently toward each other; as opposed to how they would if they were to meet in person. after i've met a few here on the board either personally or via pm, my opinions changed, mostly toward respect. some have become great friends. provocative people invite either animosity or debate. i am guilty of falling for the provocateurs, but your posts bring me back to the side of healthy conversation
ok, back to the saudi's- what would Jesus do? ;)
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Love your neighbor as yourself.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
The beatitudes.
Cast the money changers out of the temple.
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Render unto the Lord what is the Lord's.
There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for his friends.
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Love your neighbor as yourself.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
The beatitudes.
Cast the money changers out of the temple.
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Render unto the Lord what is the Lord's.
There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for his friends.
Proverbs 26:11
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Old testament. The specific question was what Jesus would do.
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Its only fair to ax, WWMD (what would Moses do), aina?
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Tap rebounds to himself to pad his stats.
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Tap rebounds to himself to pad his stats.
LOL.
I'm sad I didn't get to see Moses play. He was absolutely dominant on the hs level by all accounts and among the most underrated NBA players ever after Mr Baylor.
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this post should be in the top 5 of the scoop-dom archives!
love your balanced thought process 21jump
i know there are many here on this board who may disagree on "stuff" and thru the anonymity of the internet, speak differently toward each other; as opposed to how they would if they were to meet in person. after i've met a few here on the board either personally or via pm, my opinions changed, mostly toward respect. some have become great friends. provocative people invite either animosity or debate. i am guilty of falling for the provocateurs, but your posts bring me back to the side of healthy conversation
ok, back to the saudi's- what would Jesus do? ;)
True story, Rocket, we all need others to challenge and balance us. Appreciate the kindness, and I have to be honest, I wrote my post hastily, posted it hastily, went into the new Spider Man movie with my 16 yo (I’m not trying to re-hijack this thread, I know this belongs in the what are tou watching, but it was awesome!) and couldn’t stop thinking about how poorly I worded my post, how poorly I did trying to be balanced or thoughtful, how I should have included different examples of friends who are ardent “liberals” and the like. So, I appreciate your words and know that I can do WAY better.
As far as Jesus and the Saudi’s, my thought is we as humans wouldn’t let Jesus make the decision. This won’t be popular, but I think Jesus or a Jesus figure/prophet/whatever we want to call it also exists in Islam, maybe even from the same stories, maybe even the same creation. So, I think Jesus would forgive, I think he would listen, he would help them acknowledge and examine their fears and why they are doing what they do. If I wanted to be an instigator or as you say a provocateur, I would say Jesus “created” a religion that is also less favorable to women, so maybe he’d say cool.
I have such a little understanding of Saudi culture and religion. Sure, like a lot of people I’m very close friends with Muslims (albeit Syrian mostly), have had many a lengthy conversation about their beliefs, candidly I’m a raised, confirmed Catholic who has since become pro-faith in people and life on earth and anti-religion, but I don’t know enough to say it’s only about sportswashing and it’s wholly negative. I’ve read it’s about getting their population of young people more excited about their country, giving people a reason to both stay in SA and to visit SA, that investing in foreign sports isn’t just about sweeping atrocities under the rug if at all. So, the next time I speak with someone from that area of the universe, I’ll ask. My guess is they will have a perspective I haven’t heard.
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Its only fair to ax, WWMD (what would Moses do), aina?
Moses wouldn’t put up with any false idols, for sure
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I don’t care who the owners of Sports teams are . I just enjoy watching talented athletes compete.
Fair point, you don't gather enough personal wealth to be a sports team owner by NOT stepping on a lot of necks along the way.
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https://twitter.com/kvanvalkenburg/status/1669094595924463616?s=46&t=QSiaGcOIKZrrpw0ciZkI5Q
It’s sports washing
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https://www.ft.com/content/4a85f095-13d3-49ef-bf57-e1fcfa17946b
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Riyadh Season announced the Riyadh Season Tennis Cup will take place December 26-27 at the new Kingdom Arena in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
On December 26, Aryna Sabalenka will face Ons Jabeur and on December 27, Novak Djokovic takes on Carlos Alcaraz.