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Author Topic: 2010s and On CBB Bracket  (Read 4564 times)

PointWarrior

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2023, 12:45:52 AM »
But we aren't talking just this past year, we're talking over roughly the past 15. Oso type bigs were not the standard. Luke's defense was transformational that first year he was here. Marquette went from the #159 defense without him to #46 with him per Torvik. He also started more games than any other center and played more minutes per game than any other season of his career, so the "against...second units" is simply not true. And I think you're putting way too much on him the next two years. Luke was fine his second year, our interior problem was Henry Ellenson couldn't guard a lick. And our defense cratered the next year because of scheme and two sub-6-foot guards in the backcourt. Rowsey didn't care to play defense, Howard wasn't good enough as a freshman.

Oso is a better defender in space, Luke is better at protecting the paint. When Luke was deployed in a system that allowed him to stay home, he did well. College basketball has changed significantly in the last 5-7 years. Luke was better for 5 years ago, Oso is better for now. If Oso does what he did for another year, I would put him ahead of Luke. But I wouldn't pencil him in there quite yet.

But bottom line, there's a case for Luke, and I don't think you can argue any big other than Oso against him. Luke was a competent and efficient offensive player that kept defenses honest and he wasn't a defensive turnstile like Gardner.

Brew related to Luke?

tower912

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2023, 05:15:02 AM »
Nah.  Just assesses using data and not emotion.
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Uncle Rico

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2023, 07:42:59 AM »
Nah.  Just assesses using data and not emotion.

Point Warrior doesn’t like that
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Dr. Blackheart

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2023, 08:09:05 AM »
When god is really mad at me, he makes me watch Luke (or Theo) reels of him guarding the other team's PG on switches 35 feet from the hoop. Such a great defensive scheme Wojo had (as told to me by Scoopers).

jfp61

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2023, 09:56:03 AM »
Shot blocking help defense is hardly a part of the game anymore?
I kinda did. Luke sucked on defense for bad defensive teams. Oso was good on defense for better defensive teams.

Affirmatively no. Not even close. No shot. Never. Not in 1 million years.

Last year, Marquette's adjusted team defensive efficiency with Oso on the court was 88.7. That was the best on the team.
In 2021-2022 Oso's was 90.3 the second best on the team behind stevie.

In 2014-2015 Fischer's was 93.8, playing against other teams second units.
In 2015-2016 Fischer's was 98.4.
In 2016-2017 Fischer's was 106.9 (the worst on the team).

This is just wrong.

jfp61

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2023, 10:38:01 AM »
But we aren't talking just this past year, we're talking over roughly the past 15. Oso type bigs were not the standard. Luke's defense was transformational that first year he was here. Marquette went from the #159 defense without him to #46 with him per Torvik. He also started more games than any other center and played more minutes per game than any other season of his career, so the "against...second units" is simply not true. And I think you're putting way too much on him the next two years. Luke was fine his second year, our interior problem was Henry Ellenson couldn't guard a lick. And our defense cratered the next year because of scheme and two sub-6-foot guards in the backcourt. Rowsey didn't care to play defense, Howard wasn't good enough as a freshman.

Oso is a better defender in space, Luke is better at protecting the paint. When Luke was deployed in a system that allowed him to stay home, he did well. College basketball has changed significantly in the last 5-7 years. Luke was better for 5 years ago, Oso is better for now. If Oso does what he did for another year, I would put him ahead of Luke. But I wouldn't pencil him in there quite yet.

But bottom line, there's a case for Luke, and I don't think you can argue any big other than Oso against him. Luke was a competent and efficient offensive player that kept defenses honest and he wasn't a defensive turnstile like Gardner.

Bartorvik is a website that measures the efficiency of a team weighing that rating of the team at the end of the season higher than they do at the beginning of the season.

Luke Fischer's team defending mildly well for 10 games at the end of his first season at Marquette does not make him a good defender.  That defensive stretch was led by Juan Anderson who is still sticking around in the NBA on the basis of his defense.

Luke played for 3 years at Marquette

Marquette's Adjusted Team Defense ranking when Luke was at Marquette
2014- 2015- 69th
2015- 2016- 88th
2016- 2017- 165th

Marquette's Adjusted Team Defensive efficiency with Luke on the Court.
2014- 2015- 93.8 middle of the pack, 4th best and  5th worst, wojo had a nine man team.
2015- 2016- 98.4 the third worst rating on the team ahead of Johnson and Cheatham
2016- 2017- 106.9 the worst rating on the team, worse than Andrew Rowsey

(available at https://evanmiya.com/ click advanced view)

And that is not even looking at Luke Fishers DBPR. Which is their approximate value to the team in terms of  defensive value added per 100 possessions to the team, averaged over all of college basketball.
2014- 2015-  +0.31 middle of the pack, 5th best and  4th worst
2015- 2016- (-0.34) the WORST rating on the team
2016- 2017- (-0.78) the WORST on the team worse than ANDREW ROWSEY

Don't Trust EvanMiya, that's fine lets look at Defensive Box Plus Minus, it is a stat that overvalues rebounding and Blocks,  but Luke was great at rebounding.

Luke Fischer's DBPM
2014- 2015-  3.0 and the 2nd best on the team! (that's solid.)
2015- 2016-  0.6 and the 4th worst Scholarship player.
2016- 2017-  1.6 and the 4th best on the team


Marquette's Adjusted Team Defense ranking when Oso was at Marquette
2021-2022 - 55th
2022-2023- 43rd
Marquette's Adjusted Team Defensive efficiency with Oso on the Court.
2021-2022 - 90.3 second best on the team behind Stevie Mitchell
2022-2023- 88.7 the BEST on the team ahead of OMax
Oso's DBPR
2021-2022 - +1.34 second best on the team behind Stevie Mitchell
2022-2023-  +1.5 the BEST on the team
Oso's DBPM
2021-2022 - 3.2 and the third best on the team behind Kur and Stevie.
2022-2023-  3.7 and the BEST on the team.

The case for Luke Fischer being a better defender than Oso is a bad one. And its one of the worst takes i have seen you have.

In no capacity was he a better defensive player unless its the 1940's  we are playing without a three point line.

jfp61

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2023, 10:39:27 AM »
Nah.  Just assesses using data and not emotion.

I mean, trust me my emotions watching Luke Fischer at no point told be he was an adequate defensive player.

brewcity77

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2023, 12:05:51 PM »
It's hard to take your analysis seriously when you assert a guy who played over 29 mpg was only playing against second units, or that Luke's 24 games played were a 10-game sample size. Or that anyone could've watched that game against Arizona State in 2014 and not seen the immediate difference he made.

But again, you are wholly missing the overall point, which is that Luke is arguable on the basis of his overall career & that Oso is the only player that played center since 2010 that has any semblance of a 2-way case over Luke. You're drilling into the wrong minutia.
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jfp61

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2023, 02:40:54 PM »
It's hard to take your analysis seriously when you assert a guy who played over 29 mpg was only playing against second units, or that Luke's 24 games played were a 10-game sample size. Or that anyone could've watched that game against Arizona State in 2014 and not seen the immediate difference he made.

But again, you are wholly missing the overall point, which is that Luke is arguable on the basis of his overall career & that Oso is the only player that played center since 2010 that has any semblance of a 2-way case over Luke. You're drilling into the wrong minutia.

In summary, "I don't take your analysis seriously because you misremembered that Luke Fischer actually was the starter for the 2014-2015 Marquette team who finished 13-19." That's great. You don't have too. All i am saying is this statement is among the most immensely inaccurate i have read on scoop.

"In terms of defense, Fischer was clearly better than Gardner and probably Oso. "

I'm sorry i took into account the 88 games Luke Fischer played worse defensively in after the Arizona State game. That was by far the best he played in a Marquette uniform. (sidenote, he didn't start this game)

Not only was Luke Fischer a poor defensive player, in his second and third seasons at Marquette, he is among the worst defensive players we have had since 2010. Only Rowsey, Howard, Reinhardt, Thomas, and Steve Taylor compare.

If you want to blame his collection of teammates or wojo for his defensive play that is fine. Feel free to do that. But don't say he is a better defensive player than Oso who is actually good defensively for better defensive teams.

In terms of post 2010s centers offense and defense. You can have, Luke vs Oso, that's fair enough. I lean Oso for last season, but if you like box scores more I could see how someone like Luke.

But defensively it is not remotely close. You compared one of worst Marquette's lesser defensive players to one of our best.

Among MU players from 2011-2012 onwards. Here is Luke and Oso's DBPR Rankings among Marquette players.

Luke Fischer's DBPM Ranking (out of 103 qualifying players.)
2014- 2015-  69th overall
2015- 2016-  95th overall 
2016- 2017-  101st overall

Oso Ighodaro's DBPM Ranking (out of 103 qualifying players.)
2021-2022-  9th overall
2022-2023-  15th overall 

Make a Luke Fischer case all you want. Just talk about his offense . That is where his value was at Marquette.

brewcity77

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2023, 07:37:59 AM »
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GoldenEagles03

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2023, 11:07:34 AM »
VIOLENCE!

brewcity77

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2023, 06:45:55 PM »
Was 55-45% in favor of Creighton this morning, but Marquette fans have pushed it to 52-48 in our favor. Vote if you haven't.
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Skatastrophy

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2023, 01:13:43 PM »
Or, delete your Twitter account - https://nordvpn.com/blog/delete-twitter-account/

brewcity77

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BrewCity83

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2023, 03:29:45 PM »
Elite Eight matchup vs UConn.

https://twitter.com/ncaabuzzerbters/status/1655223852501180416?s=46&t=y09G3XF0pbaZZc_-K-dYSw


That UCONN team is pretty tough.

Looks like this will be the year for MU making it to the Elite 8.  This is the first of two, hopefully...
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