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Author Topic: 2010s and On CBB Bracket  (Read 3738 times)

GoldenEagles03

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2010s and On CBB Bracket
« on: April 27, 2023, 11:29:25 AM »
NCAA Buzzer Beaters put together a 68 team field of Colleges best lineups from 2010 to now.

Marquette is an 8 seed matched up with 9 seed Florida State in Round 1!  Go vote!

Tyler Kolek
Markus Howard
Jimmy Butler
Jae Crowder
Henry Ellenson

is Marquette's team.

Voting:
https://twitter.com/NCAABuzzerBters/status/1651622410033176577?t=ent-rWq6Nk4WjFA-BjB3hA&s=19

Bracket:
https://twitter.com/NCAABuzzerBters/status/1650869775126663174?t=0Ve47hNlxtBy926_WOrQgw&s=19
« Last Edit: April 27, 2023, 11:45:16 AM by GoldenEagles03 »
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2023, 11:31:24 AM »
Henry Ellenson???
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GoldenEagles03

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2023, 11:33:07 AM »
Henry Ellenson???

I mean he was a 1st Round pick. I can see why they chose him.  Oso would be the only other choice IMO.
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2023, 11:37:04 AM »
If they are going for an actual post player, Davante Gardner was well better than Henry.  If they don't care about position, DJO, Vander, Oso, OMax, and even Justin Lewis were better.
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brewcity77

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2023, 11:41:15 AM »
In terms of career, you could even argue Luke Fischer if you wanted a center.
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Dr. Blackheart

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2023, 11:44:28 AM »
I mean he was a 1st Round pick. I can see why they chose him.  Oso would be the only other choice IMO.

And All Big East

GoldenEagles03

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2023, 11:46:38 AM »
A tournament of 68 Schools' All-Star lineup of players since 2010. A collection of each school's dream starting 5 of players from the last 14 seasons.

To determine who's had the best collection of players in recent CBB history.


I think it is just looking for a team who would win a game. Not specifically accolade related, though that doesn't hurt. Henry at 6'11" was a weapon and would've been even moreso with players like this on his team.
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PBRme

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2023, 11:53:54 AM »
A tournament of 68 Schools' All-Star lineup of players since 2010. A collection of each school's dream starting 5 of players from the last 14 seasons.

To determine who's had the best collection of players in recent CBB history.


I think it is just looking for a team who would win a game. Not specifically accolade related, though that doesn't hurt. Henry at 6'11" was a weapon and would've been even moreso with players like this on his team.

Wouldn't they have to put Wally on the team if they pick Henry
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2023, 11:55:33 AM »
I'd think the contenders for the center position would be Ellenson, Fischer, Gardner, and Oso. They are each very different and I don't know if there is a clear winner among them.

Ellenson is by far the best rebounder and the only one with an outside shot.

Fischer is the best rim protector and second best rebounder but is the most limited offensively.

Davante is the worst defender by far but the best scorer

Oso is the worst rebounder but the most versatile offensively and probably the best overall defensively.


If Jae is the PF, I'd probably go with Oso because Jae can suck up all the rebounds, limiting Oso's biggest weakness.
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Uncle Rico

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2023, 12:08:42 PM »
This team would be unstoppable with John Dawson
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GoldenEagles03

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2023, 12:11:35 PM »
Kolek and Jimmy running the show with Markus running off screens and Jae and Henry popping for 3s would be unstoppable.

Jimmy and Jae would have a lot of defense to make up for.
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wadesworld

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2023, 12:15:20 PM »
It doesn't seem like they're putting out the best lineups.  I mean, look at the FSU group they have matched up against MU.  Vassell, Beasley, Barnes, Isaac, Kabengele.  None of these guys are lead guards.  "The best collection of players" is what they say.  So pretty much just pick the top 5 players.

Lazar played in 2010, and also played center for MU anyway.  DJO is clearly a better player than Hank (although not a 5).  Heck, DJO was better at MU than Jimmy was.
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PointWarrior

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2023, 12:29:08 PM »
In terms of career, you could even argue Luke Fischer if you wanted a center.

not sure anyone could argue Luke Fischer....

tower912

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2023, 12:32:17 PM »
I would take Henry over Gardner.
I would take Oso over Gardner.
I would take Theo over Gardner.
Keeyan would be a coin flip.
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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2023, 03:06:15 PM »
not sure anyone could argue Luke Fischer....

Since 2010, the candidates would basically be Chris Otule, Davante Gardner, Luke Fischer, Matt Heldt, Theo John, Kur Kuath, and Oso Ighodaro.

In terms of offense, Fischer was clearly better than Otule, Heldt, John, and Kuath.

In terms of defense, Fischer was clearly better than Gardner and probably Oso.

He was the best two-way center we've had in the past 15 years. On offense, he was highly efficient and assertive enough to keep defenses honest. On defense, he was a competent rim protector and held his own against big bodies (despite not the best foot speed). He was an adequate rebounder. We haven't exactly had stars at the center position. Oso is probably the most star-like, and his 2023 season was great as a modern big man, but I don't think he's caught Fischer in terms of career.

Like Fischer throughout his career, he's a perfectly fine option if you surround him with other great player, but isn't the guy you want to be your star.
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tower912

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2023, 03:12:05 PM »
Luke's defensive issues were lateral quickness and scheme.   Switching when you have tiny guards and bigs who cannot defend in space doesn't work.  Luke was fine defending the post and the rim.
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jfp61

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2023, 03:17:33 PM »
Since 2010, the candidates would basically be Chris Otule, Davante Gardner, Luke Fischer, Matt Heldt, Theo John, Kur Kuath, and Oso Ighodaro.

In terms of offense, Fischer was clearly better than Otule, Heldt, John, and Kuath.

In terms of defense, Fischer was clearly better than Gardner and probably Oso.

He was the best two-way center we've had in the past 15 years. On offense, he was highly efficient and assertive enough to keep defenses honest. On defense, he was a competent rim protector and held his own against big bodies (despite not the best foot speed). He was an adequate rebounder. We haven't exactly had stars at the center position. Oso is probably the most star-like, and his 2023 season was great as a modern big man, but I don't think he's caught Fischer in terms of career.

Like Fischer throughout his career, he's a perfectly fine option if you surround him with other great player, but isn't the guy you want to be your star.

Affirmatively no. Not even close. No shot. Never. Not in 1 million years.

Last year, Marquette's adjusted team defensive efficiency with Oso on the court was 88.7. That was the best on the team.
In 2021-2022 Oso's was 90.3 the second best on the team behind stevie.

In 2014-2015 Fischer's was 93.8, playing against other teams second units.
In 2015-2016 Fischer's was 98.4.
In 2016-2017 Fischer's was 106.9 (the worst on the team).

This is just wrong.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2023, 03:24:02 PM by jfp61 »

brewcity77

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2023, 03:25:00 PM »
Affirmatively no. Not even close. No shot. Never. Not in 1 million years.

Oso was better at quick man-to-man defense, Fischer was a better in terms of shot-blocking help defense and holding his own against big, physical 5s. Oso struggled with guys like Nunge, Sanogo, and Croswell when it came to sheer physicality. I love Oso and think once his career is done I'd have him ahead of Fischer, but there were things Luke's size and strength allowed him to do that Oso cannot.
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jfp61

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2023, 03:30:42 PM »
Oso was better at quick man-to-man defense, Fischer was a better in terms of shot-blocking help defense and holding his own against big, physical 5s. Oso struggled with guys like Nunge, Sanogo, and Croswell when it came to sheer physicality. I love Oso and think once his career is done I'd have him ahead of Fischer, but there were things Luke's size and strength allowed him to do that Oso cannot.

Oso was a better defender on the most important defensive attribute in the game of basketball. But Luke Fischer was okay at defending something that is hardly a part of the game anymore.

That's what i just read. Also, I am not even entirely sure that is completely truthful. Luke got eaten alive by many bigs.

Objectivly, Oso has been a top two-three defensive player on Marquette teams better defensively than Luke Fischer ever played on.

I actually can't believe i read that.

THRILLHO

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2023, 03:38:24 PM »
Oso was a better defender on the most important defensive attribute in the game of basketball. But Luke Fischer was okay at defending something that is hardly a part of the game anymore.


Shot blocking help defense is hardly a part of the game anymore?

jfp61

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2023, 03:54:09 PM »
Shot blocking help defense is hardly a part of the game anymore?

Yea man of course, ignore the one thing i was clearly referring to  nd choose the other two aspects of the game he referenced.

Here are some baseline unquestionable facts.

Oso was a solid bench defender in his first year, and then was the anchor of a defense his second year. His team defenses finished 55th his first year and 43rd his second year. And Marquette's team defense was significantly worse when Oso was off the court each year.

But hey, Luke's team defenses finished 69th, 88th, and 165th. And he was one of the worst defensive players on his team his second and third year. 

But yea man i guess Luke is a better defender because he blocks 1-2% more shots each game in help defense.

Its DJOver

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2023, 04:27:30 PM »
Defenses with Stevie, OMax and most importantly Shaka are always going to be better than defenses with Rowsey and Wojo.  It would really depend on the other personnel and scheme.  I could see a case for either.

brewcity77

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2023, 08:59:35 PM »
Yea man of course, ignore the one thing i was clearly referring to  nd choose the other two aspects of the game he referenced.

Here are some baseline unquestionable facts.

Oso was a solid bench defender in his first year, and then was the anchor of a defense his second year. His team defenses finished 55th his first year and 43rd his second year. And Marquette's team defense was significantly worse when Oso was off the court each year.

But hey, Luke's team defenses finished 69th, 88th, and 165th. And he was one of the worst defensive players on his team his second and third year. 

But yea man i guess Luke is a better defender because he blocks 1-2% more shots each game in help defense.

But we aren't talking just this past year, we're talking over roughly the past 15. Oso type bigs were not the standard. Luke's defense was transformational that first year he was here. Marquette went from the #159 defense without him to #46 with him per Torvik. He also started more games than any other center and played more minutes per game than any other season of his career, so the "against...second units" is simply not true. And I think you're putting way too much on him the next two years. Luke was fine his second year, our interior problem was Henry Ellenson couldn't guard a lick. And our defense cratered the next year because of scheme and two sub-6-foot guards in the backcourt. Rowsey didn't care to play defense, Howard wasn't good enough as a freshman.

Oso is a better defender in space, Luke is better at protecting the paint. When Luke was deployed in a system that allowed him to stay home, he did well. College basketball has changed significantly in the last 5-7 years. Luke was better for 5 years ago, Oso is better for now. If Oso does what he did for another year, I would put him ahead of Luke. But I wouldn't pencil him in there quite yet.

But bottom line, there's a case for Luke, and I don't think you can argue any big other than Oso against him. Luke was a competent and efficient offensive player that kept defenses honest and he wasn't a defensive turnstile like Gardner.
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wadesworld

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2023, 09:20:18 PM »
If they’re including the 2009-2010 season in “since 2010” then the clear answer is Lazar and Jae are your 4/5 along with Kolek, Markus, and DJO. Of course Jimmy would get it based on what he’s done in the NBA, but DJO was the better college player.

That’s 3 BEPOYs in one group.
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THRILLHO

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2023, 12:24:17 AM »
Yea man of course, ignore the one thing i was clearly referring to  nd choose the other two aspects of the game he referenced.

I'm just pointing out you ignored the more defensible part of his argument and focused on the less defensible part.  Could've just led with this!

PointWarrior

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2023, 12:45:52 AM »
But we aren't talking just this past year, we're talking over roughly the past 15. Oso type bigs were not the standard. Luke's defense was transformational that first year he was here. Marquette went from the #159 defense without him to #46 with him per Torvik. He also started more games than any other center and played more minutes per game than any other season of his career, so the "against...second units" is simply not true. And I think you're putting way too much on him the next two years. Luke was fine his second year, our interior problem was Henry Ellenson couldn't guard a lick. And our defense cratered the next year because of scheme and two sub-6-foot guards in the backcourt. Rowsey didn't care to play defense, Howard wasn't good enough as a freshman.

Oso is a better defender in space, Luke is better at protecting the paint. When Luke was deployed in a system that allowed him to stay home, he did well. College basketball has changed significantly in the last 5-7 years. Luke was better for 5 years ago, Oso is better for now. If Oso does what he did for another year, I would put him ahead of Luke. But I wouldn't pencil him in there quite yet.

But bottom line, there's a case for Luke, and I don't think you can argue any big other than Oso against him. Luke was a competent and efficient offensive player that kept defenses honest and he wasn't a defensive turnstile like Gardner.

Brew related to Luke?

tower912

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2023, 05:15:02 AM »
Nah.  Just assesses using data and not emotion.
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Uncle Rico

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2023, 07:42:59 AM »
Nah.  Just assesses using data and not emotion.

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Dr. Blackheart

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2023, 08:09:05 AM »
When god is really mad at me, he makes me watch Luke (or Theo) reels of him guarding the other team's PG on switches 35 feet from the hoop. Such a great defensive scheme Wojo had (as told to me by Scoopers).

jfp61

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2023, 09:56:03 AM »
Shot blocking help defense is hardly a part of the game anymore?
I kinda did. Luke sucked on defense for bad defensive teams. Oso was good on defense for better defensive teams.

Affirmatively no. Not even close. No shot. Never. Not in 1 million years.

Last year, Marquette's adjusted team defensive efficiency with Oso on the court was 88.7. That was the best on the team.
In 2021-2022 Oso's was 90.3 the second best on the team behind stevie.

In 2014-2015 Fischer's was 93.8, playing against other teams second units.
In 2015-2016 Fischer's was 98.4.
In 2016-2017 Fischer's was 106.9 (the worst on the team).

This is just wrong.

jfp61

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2023, 10:38:01 AM »
But we aren't talking just this past year, we're talking over roughly the past 15. Oso type bigs were not the standard. Luke's defense was transformational that first year he was here. Marquette went from the #159 defense without him to #46 with him per Torvik. He also started more games than any other center and played more minutes per game than any other season of his career, so the "against...second units" is simply not true. And I think you're putting way too much on him the next two years. Luke was fine his second year, our interior problem was Henry Ellenson couldn't guard a lick. And our defense cratered the next year because of scheme and two sub-6-foot guards in the backcourt. Rowsey didn't care to play defense, Howard wasn't good enough as a freshman.

Oso is a better defender in space, Luke is better at protecting the paint. When Luke was deployed in a system that allowed him to stay home, he did well. College basketball has changed significantly in the last 5-7 years. Luke was better for 5 years ago, Oso is better for now. If Oso does what he did for another year, I would put him ahead of Luke. But I wouldn't pencil him in there quite yet.

But bottom line, there's a case for Luke, and I don't think you can argue any big other than Oso against him. Luke was a competent and efficient offensive player that kept defenses honest and he wasn't a defensive turnstile like Gardner.

Bartorvik is a website that measures the efficiency of a team weighing that rating of the team at the end of the season higher than they do at the beginning of the season.

Luke Fischer's team defending mildly well for 10 games at the end of his first season at Marquette does not make him a good defender.  That defensive stretch was led by Juan Anderson who is still sticking around in the NBA on the basis of his defense.

Luke played for 3 years at Marquette

Marquette's Adjusted Team Defense ranking when Luke was at Marquette
2014- 2015- 69th
2015- 2016- 88th
2016- 2017- 165th

Marquette's Adjusted Team Defensive efficiency with Luke on the Court.
2014- 2015- 93.8 middle of the pack, 4th best and  5th worst, wojo had a nine man team.
2015- 2016- 98.4 the third worst rating on the team ahead of Johnson and Cheatham
2016- 2017- 106.9 the worst rating on the team, worse than Andrew Rowsey

(available at https://evanmiya.com/ click advanced view)

And that is not even looking at Luke Fishers DBPR. Which is their approximate value to the team in terms of  defensive value added per 100 possessions to the team, averaged over all of college basketball.
2014- 2015-  +0.31 middle of the pack, 5th best and  4th worst
2015- 2016- (-0.34) the WORST rating on the team
2016- 2017- (-0.78) the WORST on the team worse than ANDREW ROWSEY

Don't Trust EvanMiya, that's fine lets look at Defensive Box Plus Minus, it is a stat that overvalues rebounding and Blocks,  but Luke was great at rebounding.

Luke Fischer's DBPM
2014- 2015-  3.0 and the 2nd best on the team! (that's solid.)
2015- 2016-  0.6 and the 4th worst Scholarship player.
2016- 2017-  1.6 and the 4th best on the team


Marquette's Adjusted Team Defense ranking when Oso was at Marquette
2021-2022 - 55th
2022-2023- 43rd
Marquette's Adjusted Team Defensive efficiency with Oso on the Court.
2021-2022 - 90.3 second best on the team behind Stevie Mitchell
2022-2023- 88.7 the BEST on the team ahead of OMax
Oso's DBPR
2021-2022 - +1.34 second best on the team behind Stevie Mitchell
2022-2023-  +1.5 the BEST on the team
Oso's DBPM
2021-2022 - 3.2 and the third best on the team behind Kur and Stevie.
2022-2023-  3.7 and the BEST on the team.

The case for Luke Fischer being a better defender than Oso is a bad one. And its one of the worst takes i have seen you have.

In no capacity was he a better defensive player unless its the 1940's  we are playing without a three point line.

jfp61

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2023, 10:39:27 AM »
Nah.  Just assesses using data and not emotion.

I mean, trust me my emotions watching Luke Fischer at no point told be he was an adequate defensive player.

brewcity77

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2023, 12:05:51 PM »
It's hard to take your analysis seriously when you assert a guy who played over 29 mpg was only playing against second units, or that Luke's 24 games played were a 10-game sample size. Or that anyone could've watched that game against Arizona State in 2014 and not seen the immediate difference he made.

But again, you are wholly missing the overall point, which is that Luke is arguable on the basis of his overall career & that Oso is the only player that played center since 2010 that has any semblance of a 2-way case over Luke. You're drilling into the wrong minutia.
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jfp61

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2023, 02:40:54 PM »
It's hard to take your analysis seriously when you assert a guy who played over 29 mpg was only playing against second units, or that Luke's 24 games played were a 10-game sample size. Or that anyone could've watched that game against Arizona State in 2014 and not seen the immediate difference he made.

But again, you are wholly missing the overall point, which is that Luke is arguable on the basis of his overall career & that Oso is the only player that played center since 2010 that has any semblance of a 2-way case over Luke. You're drilling into the wrong minutia.

In summary, "I don't take your analysis seriously because you misremembered that Luke Fischer actually was the starter for the 2014-2015 Marquette team who finished 13-19." That's great. You don't have too. All i am saying is this statement is among the most immensely inaccurate i have read on scoop.

"In terms of defense, Fischer was clearly better than Gardner and probably Oso. "

I'm sorry i took into account the 88 games Luke Fischer played worse defensively in after the Arizona State game. That was by far the best he played in a Marquette uniform. (sidenote, he didn't start this game)

Not only was Luke Fischer a poor defensive player, in his second and third seasons at Marquette, he is among the worst defensive players we have had since 2010. Only Rowsey, Howard, Reinhardt, Thomas, and Steve Taylor compare.

If you want to blame his collection of teammates or wojo for his defensive play that is fine. Feel free to do that. But don't say he is a better defensive player than Oso who is actually good defensively for better defensive teams.

In terms of post 2010s centers offense and defense. You can have, Luke vs Oso, that's fair enough. I lean Oso for last season, but if you like box scores more I could see how someone like Luke.

But defensively it is not remotely close. You compared one of worst Marquette's lesser defensive players to one of our best.

Among MU players from 2011-2012 onwards. Here is Luke and Oso's DBPR Rankings among Marquette players.

Luke Fischer's DBPM Ranking (out of 103 qualifying players.)
2014- 2015-  69th overall
2015- 2016-  95th overall 
2016- 2017-  101st overall

Oso Ighodaro's DBPM Ranking (out of 103 qualifying players.)
2021-2022-  9th overall
2022-2023-  15th overall 

Make a Luke Fischer case all you want. Just talk about his offense . That is where his value was at Marquette.

brewcity77

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2023, 07:37:59 AM »
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GoldenEagles03

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2023, 11:07:34 AM »
VIOLENCE!

brewcity77

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2023, 06:45:55 PM »
Was 55-45% in favor of Creighton this morning, but Marquette fans have pushed it to 52-48 in our favor. Vote if you haven't.
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Skatastrophy

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2023, 01:13:43 PM »
Or, delete your Twitter account - https://nordvpn.com/blog/delete-twitter-account/

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BrewCity83

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Re: 2010s and On CBB Bracket
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2023, 03:29:45 PM »
Elite Eight matchup vs UConn.

https://twitter.com/ncaabuzzerbters/status/1655223852501180416?s=46&t=y09G3XF0pbaZZc_-K-dYSw


That UCONN team is pretty tough.

Looks like this will be the year for MU making it to the Elite 8.  This is the first of two, hopefully...
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