The Future of Cities

[Scoop Snoop]

Don't cities compete frequently in an attempt to attract businesses (sometimes to the detriment of the local populace)? Foxconn, Amazon HQ2 are 2 that come to mind easily. Plus KC KS vs KC MO.

True that. I should have been more clear. I was referring to small businesses where the officials seem too often do not give a rat's ass. Individually, the small businesses are sometimes barely visible, but collectively they add up. Next time that you are in a smaller city (or even parts of large cities) notice the boarded up buildings. They spell FAILURE, and not just business failure.

The huge companies are sought after, and the cities compete aggressively.

[Pakuni]

Without the entrepreneur's financial risk and efforts to establish the business, there are no individuals producing goods and services.  The "mere entity" is the foundation. And I neither said nor implied that it was some sort of benevolent being. That's laughable.

So, I'm not sure what this has to do with your insistence that business funds government through income taxes and FICA (????), but I do agree with you a bit here. Having people who invest their time and resources in creating businesses is massively important for sustaining a thriving economy.
But what you seem unable or unwilling to recognize is that all the entrepreneurial spirit in the world isn't going to go far without access to publicly funded infrastructure and utilities, a public transportation network, a workforce educated on the public dime, a secure financial system, police, fire and perhaps even military protection, a stable currency, and on and on.
I mean, I'm sure there are some very smart, inventive and hard-working people in Somalia, Yemen and Honduras, but without all the benefits of a stable, effective government (effective being a relative term here), none of them are going to be the next Steve Jobs or Jeff Bezos.
And no, businesses do not fund this. Individuals do. The vast majority of public funding comes via individual taxes, consumption taxes and property taxes.
At the end of the day, both sides need each other to thrive. You seem to only understand half of that.

Look at the numerous small towns throughout the country that no longer have those "mere entities" and tell me about the residents' income and taxes generated. They are virtually ghost towns.

Honestly not sure what this has to do with what we were discussing. Some small towns are ghost towns because of something Obama said a decade ago? Explain further.

Regarding Obama's remarks, allegedly lifted from an Elizabeth Warren speech, he clearly was giving credit to government for providing roads, bridges etc. And exactly where did the government get the money to do things like that? His "you didn't build that" was an insult to anyone who worked extremely hard to get a business up and running. Shame on him for his cheap shot, political BS.

As I explained, government gets its money to provide roads, bridges, etc. primarily from individual citizens. So, yeah, Obama was right. Or is it your belief that inidividual businesses built the roads and airports they use, built the public utilities, built the airports, built the internet, etc.?

[Hards Alumni]

Without the entrepreneur's financial risk and efforts to establish the business, there are no individuals producing goods and services.  The "mere entity" is the foundation. And I neither said nor implied that it was some sort of benevolent being. That's laughable.

 Look at the numerous small towns throughout the country that no longer have those "mere entities" and tell me about the residents' income and taxes generated. They are virtually ghost towns.

Regarding Obama's remarks, allegedly lifted from an Elizabeth Warren speech, he clearly was giving credit to government for providing roads, bridges etc. And exactly where did the government get the money to do things like that? His "you didn't build that" was an insult to anyone who worked extremely hard to get a business up and running. Shame on him for his cheap shot, political BS.

I think the point was that you didn't do it all by yourself... because you didn't.  Society helped a lot and you were given the tools because we have a functioning society.  A functioning society where not everyone has the means to start a business.

I think you probably understand this, but there are quite a few people (some I know personally) who think that starting a business is incredibly difficult.  Sure, there are risks (fairly minor if we are being honest), but the rewards are enormous if done correctly.  Now, seeing that cost/benefit analysis and actually DOING something and creating the business is the hardest part.  A lot of people have a lot of great ideas, but don't have any idea where to start, but securing financials from a bank is not terribly difficult.

[Jay Bee]

Pakuni… must’ve been a liberal arts kind of guy. Clueless when it kums 2 Da kash

[Scoop Snoop]

I think the point was that you didn't do it all by yourself... because you didn't.  Society helped a lot and you were given the tools because we have a functioning society.  A functioning society where not everyone has the means to start a business.

I think you probably understand this, but there are quite a few people (some I know personally) who think that starting a business is incredibly difficult.  Sure, there are risks (fairly minor if we are being honest), but the rewards are enormous if done correctly. Eno Now, seeing that cost/benefit analysis and actually DOING something and creating the business is the hardest part.  A lot of people have a lot of great ideas, but don't have any idea where to start, but securing financials from a bank is not terribly difficult.

We agree for the most part, but your "fairly minor" comment and ease of securing financing are not always true. The need for infrastructure is absolutely essential, but my point was the tax revenues that allow for the infrastructure do not magically appear in the hands of government. Businesses are private, not government, property. Thank you for not assuming that I needed a lecture on the subject.

I have no love for either party, but a comment from British Prime Minister Maggie Thatcher years ago was SO spot on: "The problem with socialism is that sooner or later, you run out of other people's money."  I love the quote because it clearly identifies how governments do what they do.

[Scoop Snoop]

So, I'm not sure what this has to do with your insistence that business funds government through income taxes and FICA (????), but I do agree with you a bit here. Having people who invest their time and resources in creating businesses is massively important for sustaining a thriving economy.
But what you seem unable or unwilling to recognize is that all the entrepreneurial spirit in the world isn't going to go far without access to publicly funded infrastructure and utilities, a public transportation network, a workforce educated on the public dime, a secure financial system, police, fire and perhaps even military protection, a stable currency, and on and on.
I mean, I'm sure there are some very smart, inventive and hard-working people in Somalia, Yemen and Honduras, but without all the benefits of a stable, effective government (effective being a relative term here), none of them are going to be the next Steve Jobs or Jeff Bezos.
And no, businesses do not fund this. Individuals do. The vast majority of public funding comes via individual taxes, consumption taxes and property taxes.
At the end of the day, both sides need each other to thrive. You seem to only understand half of that.

Honestly not sure what this has to do with what we were discussing. Some small towns are ghost towns because of something Obama said a decade ago? Explain further.

As I explained, government gets its money to provide roads, bridges, etc. primarily from individual citizens. So, yeah, Obama was right. Or is it your belief that inidividual businesses built the roads and airports they use, built the public utilities, built the airports, built the internet, etc.?

Your assumption that I am unwilling to accept the importance of infrastructure is just that- your assumption.

I understand all of the bolded. Whether people are self-employed, work for a business or tradesmen etc., they pay taxes. Unemployed people do not. Take a deep breath and stop your condescension and patronizing BS.

Since I did not link Obama's quote in any way-implied or stated-with the "ghost towns" comment mentioned in another thread, YOU "explain further." Stop making crap up. This is just one of the reasons why I replied to Hards post in a very different tone than yours. His tone was respectful while commenting on my post.

[Scoop Snoop]

Pakuni… must’ve been a liberal arts kind of guy. Clueless when it kums 2 Da kash

 

[Hards Alumni]

We agree for the most part, but your "fairly minor" comment and ease of securing financing are not always true. The need for infrastructure is absolutely essential, but my point was the tax revenues that allow for the infrastructure do not magically appear in the hands of government. Businesses are private, not government, property. Thank you for not assuming that I needed a lecture on the subject.

I don't see the point you're trying to make here (and that is probably a me thing).  You're upset with Obama because you feel like he slighted your entrepreneurship by claiming 'you didn't build that'?   

Yes, the risks are fairly minor.  What is the worst that can happen?  Your LLC, s-corp, or however you arranged your corporation declares bankruptcy and goes under.  You are forced to sell your home/assets and become a worker again instead of an owner.  Does that suck?  Of course it does, but that is what you signed up for.  It's why the rewards are higher than they would be for the average worker.  I am not trying to lecture you, personally.  You obviously know all of this (which I made clear, previously), but I'm just stating for anyone reading, my opinions on the matter.  If you're not interested or don't value them, I understand.  Not everyone will.

[Hards Alumni]

Your assumption that I am unwilling to accept the importance of infrastructure is just that- your assumption.

I understand all of the bolded. Whether people are self-employed, work for a business or tradesmen etc., they pay taxes. Unemployed people do not. Take a deep breath and stop your condescension and patronizing BS.

Since I did not link Obama's quote in any way-implied or stated-with the "ghost towns" comment mentioned in another thread, YOU "explain further." Stop making crap up. This is just one of the reasons why I replied to Hards post in a very different tone than yours. His tone was respectful while commenting on my post.

Unemployed people still pay all kinds of taxes.  Gas tax, property taxes (where applicable), sales tax, etc.  Sure, they don't pay income taxes, but they certainly still contribute financially to the system.   

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Your assumption that I am unwilling to accept the importance of infrastructure is just that- your assumption.

You're the one who brought up Obama's quote and that you "absolutely could not stand Obama from that day forward," but that quote was exactly about the "importance of infrastructure." (As well as other public services such as public education, fire protection, etc.)

[Scoop Snoop]

Unemployed people still pay all kinds of taxes.  Gas tax, property taxes (where applicable), sales tax, etc.  Sure, they don't pay income taxes, but they certainly still contribute financially to the system.   

Fair enough.

[Pakuni]

Your assumption that I am unwilling to accept the importance of infrastructure is just that- your assumption.

I understand all of the bolded. Whether people are self-employed, work for a business or tradesmen etc., they pay taxes. Unemployed people do not. Take a deep breath and stop your condescension and patronizing BS.

Since I did not link Obama's quote in any way-implied or stated-with the "ghost towns" comment mentioned in another thread, YOU "explain further." Stop making crap up. This is just one of the reasons why I replied to Hards post in a very different tone than yours. His tone was respectful while commenting on my post.

My apologies if my response came off as condescending. I'm legitimately confused as to the point you're trying to make.
If you accept that it's individuals that largely fund the government, why do you disagree with the idea that it's not businesses that "built that" ... that being the infrastructure and stable environment that you accept is necessary for businesses to succeed?
I wholeheartedly agree that Obama's remarks could have been better delivered, but his point is not incorrect.

And I'll note I'm not the one here lobbing insults.

[dgies9156]

You can't run modern businesses from small towns or rural areas (that I've been to, staying with family). Their Internet is terrible. Fastest thing available in many places is 5g Home Internet. It's wild how little we invest in the infrastructure in this country.

I agree with Brother Snoop that rural access is changing. And, if necessary, there's always satellite.

The bigger question is transportation. Not just the logistics of getting in and out -- trucks and trains deal with that -- but the proximity to an airport. Companies in places like Moline, Peoria, Decatur etc., have found the connecting flight on the Devil's Chariot (CRJ-200s in many cases) adds hours to a trip, especially if your company is international. You either do what Walmart does and run your own private airline or you do what Cat did and move to Deerfield and then to Dallas.

Sof ar, Deere is still in Moline but the big question for them is for how long?

[JWags85]

Yes, the risks are fairly minor.  What is the worst that can happen?  Your LLC, s-corp, or however you arranged your corporation declares bankruptcy and goes under.  You are forced to sell your home/assets and become a worker again instead of an owner.  Does that suck?  Of course it does, but that is what you signed up for.

If losing all your assets and/or livelihood is “fairly minor” I’m not sure what is major in this day and age?!

I think the bigger ideology, which is what I feel SS is getting at, is the mentality by some that government is the more useful benevolent and far more important economic driver/entity, not entrepreneurship/business creation.  I’m not saying that’s what you or anyone in this thread has specifically stated,  it’s hardly an uncommon sentiment.    Undercut the role and risk of business or creators by vaunting the role or importance of government.  Which has always seemed silly to me.  Everyone has the same access to government created infrastructure, but not everyone is making an outsized economic impact with it.

Shockingly, the Venm Diagram of those people and those who think CEOs don’t do much but sign papers and go to a few meetings while everyone does the work…is nearly a clean circle

[Scoop Snoop]

My apologies if my response came off as condescending. I'm legitimately confused as to the point you're trying to make.
If you accept that it's individuals that largely fund the government, why do you disagree with the idea that it's not businesses that "built that" ... that being the infrastructure and stable environment that you accept is necessary for businesses to succeed?
I wholeheartedly agree that Obama's remarks could have been better delivered, but his point is not incorrect.

And I'll note I'm not the one here lobbing insults.

Apology accepted. And I have to 'fess up that I could have handled myself better. I think our discussions would have been better served without your "mere entity" comment though. That set me off. JWags presented my case far better than I did myself, so please read his interpretation of what he thought I was driving at.

Are we good?

[Scoop Snoop]

If losing all your assets and/or livelihood is “fairly minor” I’m not sure what is major in this day and age?!

I think the bigger ideology, which is what I feel SS is getting at, is the mentality by some that government is the more useful benevolent and far more important economic driver/entity, not entrepreneurship/business creation.  I’m not saying that’s what you or anyone in this thread has specifically stated,  it’s hardly an uncommon sentiment.    Undercut the role and risk of business or creators by vaunting the role or importance of government.  Which has always seemed silly to me.  Everyone has the same access to government created infrastructure, but not everyone is making an outsized economic impact with it.

Shockingly, the Venm Diagram of those people and those who think CEOs don’t do much but sign papers and go to a few meetings while everyone does the work…is nearly a clean circle

Thank you SO much for identifying what I was saying far better than I did myself. I'm a little embarrassed that I did convey my thoughts better. You nailed it.

Oh, and I know that does not necessarily mean you agree with me on a number of issues. Thanks again.

[Hards Alumni]

If losing all your assets and/or livelihood is “fairly minor” I’m not sure what is major in this day and age?!

I think the bigger ideology, which is what I feel SS is getting at, is the mentality by some that government is the more useful benevolent and far more important economic driver/entity, not entrepreneurship/business creation.  I’m not saying that’s what you or anyone in this thread has specifically stated,  it’s hardly an uncommon sentiment.    Undercut the role and risk of business or creators by vaunting the role or importance of government.  Which has always seemed silly to me.  Everyone has the same access to government created infrastructure, but not everyone is making an outsized economic impact with it.

Shockingly, the Venm Diagram of those people and those who think CEOs don’t do much but sign papers and go to a few meetings while everyone does the work…is nearly a clean circle

Well that depends.  If you lose your home and all your assets, then you probably held on to the idea of the business too long.  Also, people from all walks of life lose their homes due to financial hardship.  It isn't uncommon, and there is always a road back from such things.  None of it is fun, but it certainly isn't insurmountable.  No one should be heaving themselves off the US Bank building because they had to declare bankruptcy or had to sell assets.

I will say that the older a person gets, the more difficult it is to bounce back from a failed business. 

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Pakuni… must’ve been a liberal arts kind of guy. Clueless when it kums 2 Da kash

No way.  He's the smartest guy on this board.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

I don't see the point you're trying to make here (and that is probably a me thing).  You're upset with Obama because you feel like he slighted your entrepreneurship by claiming 'you didn't build that'?   

Yes, the risks are fairly minor.  What is the worst that can happen?  Your LLC, s-corp, or however you arranged your corporation declares bankruptcy and goes under.  You are forced to sell your home/assets and become a worker again instead of an owner.  Does that suck?  Of course it does, but that is what you signed up for.  It's why the rewards are higher than they would be for the average worker.  I am not trying to lecture you, personally.  You obviously know all of this (which I made clear, previously), but I'm just stating for anyone reading, my opinions on the matter.  If you're not interested or don't value them, I understand.  Not everyone will.

r/selfawarewolves

[Hards Alumni]

r/selfawarewolves

I'm just self aware.  The meme doesn't fit here.

[Scoop Snoop]

I don't see the point you're trying to make here (and that is probably a me thing).  You're upset with Obama because you feel like he slighted your entrepreneurship by claiming 'you didn't build that'?   

Yes, the risks are fairly minor.  What is the worst that can happen?  Your LLC, s-corp, or however you arranged your corporation declares bankruptcy and goes under.  You are forced to sell your home/assets and become a worker again instead of an owner.  Does that suck?  Of course it does, but that is what you signed up for.  It's why the rewards are higher than they would be for the average worker.  I am not trying to lecture you, personally.  You obviously know all of this (which I made clear, previously), but I'm just stating for anyone reading, my opinions on the matter.  If you're not interested or don't value them, I understand. Not everyone will.

Huh? I meant my post as a "thanks" and am not sure how you read it otherwise.

Huh/

[Scoop Snoop]

I agree with Brother Snoop that rural access is changing. And, if necessary, there's always satellite.

The bigger question is transportation. Not just the logistics of getting in and out -- trucks and trains deal with that -- but the proximity to an airport. Companies in places like Moline, Peoria, Decatur etc., have found the connecting flight on the Devil's Chariot (CRJ-200s in many cases) adds hours to a trip, especially if your company is international. You either do what Walmart does and run your own private airline or you do what Cat did and move to Deerfield and then to Dallas.

Sof ar, Deere is still in Moline but the big question for them is for how long?

Satellite? Ugh! That's what we had before fiber. Maybe ours was unusually bad, and wooded areas do not help with signal strength. When it rained hard and during thunderstorms, it went out. And the number of people drawing from it slowed it down during certain hours. Not that it was very fast to begin with.

[Pakuni]

No way.  He's the smartest guy on this board.

Probably not.
But definitely smarter than you.

[Hards Alumni]

Probably not.
But definitely smarter than you.

low bar

[ZiggysFryBoy]

low bar

Agreed.