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Marquette
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Open Practice

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Schedule for 2023-24
27-10

Poll

Should Markus Howard Jersey Be Retired

Yes
No

Author Topic: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement  (Read 21992 times)

tower912

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #225 on: September 22, 2023, 09:04:32 PM »
I, too, love Diener.  But he never went to an NCAA without Wade.    The offense was bogging down during his senior year even before he selfishly lost his temper leading to MU getting humiliated by Western Michigan in the bleeping NIT.   Led a team that made negative history by going from the final 4 to the NIT.   Returning 3 starters and moving Novak into the starting line up.


Markus > Travis.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

jfp61

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #226 on: September 22, 2023, 09:24:33 PM »
TKO would very much struggle to have the influence he currently does in a Wojo schemed offense.  If the only swap that is happening is M2N for TKO, the Wojo era would look worse than it does and the Shaka era would look better.

Markus Howard struggled to have the influence he should have had in a wojo schemed offense. That's why his teams lost a lot. No team's with Markus Howard, and as importantly Sam Hauser, should have lost that many games.

Markus was 79-49 when player which is a 61.7% which is lower than the schools all time percentage. And that includes nearly 50 years of .500 basketball before Al.

But subbing Markus for Tyler would not make the Shaka Era look better. That's a crazy take.

Markus wasn't on pair with Tyler defensively.  And the only time Markus was able to generate close to the offense close to the offense Marquette had last year was when Andrew Rowsey was orchestrating it and the entire team refused to play defense.

This century, really only Jae Crowder and Dwayne Wade have hade THAT level impact that Kolek had this past year.

tower912

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #227 on: September 22, 2023, 09:31:30 PM »
JB has explained multiple times how elite MU's offense with Markus at the helm.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Viper

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #228 on: September 22, 2023, 09:55:14 PM »
You guys should really stop dissing
Markus.  He was a great player, great scorer and a great representative of MU.

He was - at times - a walking highlight real.  Should his number in the rafters ?
Yes.  He’s the all time leading scorer at MU. Whether he is “ better “ than Travis or TKO does not matter. 

As someone said above in his Jr and Sr years there’s not a team in the country that would not have wanted / taken him.

Could he have been better w / another coach?  Sure.  But that’s not on him
100%

Viper

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #229 on: September 22, 2023, 09:56:43 PM »


Nah man, Travis has the heart of a lion. Just a flat out assassin who'd cut your eyes out for a "w," hey?
as our man Homer called him, Kid Assassin!

Jay Bee

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #230 on: September 22, 2023, 09:57:00 PM »
Yeah, Wojo tainted my views of Howard. Usage rate of 40% and assist to turnover ratio below one.

Tell me you don’t understand statistics without telling me you don’t understand statistics. Good grief.

Thanks for ruining summer, Canada.

Its DJOver

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #231 on: September 22, 2023, 10:24:41 PM »

But subbing Markus for Tyler would not make the Shaka Era look better. That's a crazy take.


Shaka and Nevada would be drooling over the thought of being able to mold someone with Markus' abilities into their offense, and as Markus proved once he wasn't playing along side AR, having one diminutive guard doesn't kill a defensive identity. Put Markus in the position that Tyler has been in/will continue to be in and he's still an AA, put Tyler in Markus' position and he isn't IMO.
I'll stick with my opinion on Gold.  He'll be in foul trouble within the first eight minutes.

MU82

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #232 on: September 22, 2023, 10:25:59 PM »
I would have loved seeing Marcus play in an offense that was moving the ball, and that wasn't relying on him to take bad shots to save possessions.

1. Who is Marcus?

2. I guess you missed Markus' freshman season. Seven players averaged between 8.7 and 13.2 ppg, Markus had the highest average but two teammates averaged more shots than he did, he shot a staggering .547 from 3, and he helped an entertaining but flawed team get an NCAA tournament bid.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

Galway Eagle

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #233 on: September 22, 2023, 10:54:28 PM »
That's crazy talk.



Nah man, Travis has the heart of a lion. Just a flat out assassin who'd cut your eyes out for a "w," hey?

Sure unless he got injured from a tackling dummy...

he was a great player but man if I blindly said to you "here's a BE POY and two time all American and here's a two time first team all USA which would you take?" Nothing else. You'd be a complete fool to say "give me the first conference team guy who couldn't make the ncaa tournament in a below high major conference without a HoF bball player"

Travis' senior year we went 1-5 against teams that'd make the tournament... that's a winner to you Doc? I thought you had high expectations for MU to be successful.

Travis' Junior year we went 4-7 against teams that'd make the tournament. That's much better but if that's Markus' record any year you guys would (and did in your case Doc) crucify him.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2023, 11:04:40 PM by Galway Eagle »
Maigh Eo for Sam

MUDPT

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #234 on: September 22, 2023, 11:04:27 PM »
Player A in 2 NCAA Tournament games: 13-34 from the field.

Player B in 2 NCAA Tournament games: 14-37 from the field.

Player A is Wade's performance in Indy.  Player B is Markus's two NCAA games.  Stop using a two game sample size to rate how great a player was at MU.

avid1010

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #235 on: September 23, 2023, 06:00:19 AM »
Markus isn't in TD's league...that's the one TD played in for years and could have remained had he wanted.

Wade is the first to say there's no FF without TD.

The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #236 on: September 23, 2023, 06:29:36 AM »
Markus isn't in TD's league...that's the one TD played in for years and could have remained had he wanted.


Well, NBA performance isn't really relevant here.  Players like Butch Lee could never really hang on in the NBA either.  Are you saying that TD is better than Lee?

I love Travis. I enjoyed watching him play. Yes there wouldn't have been a FF without him, but a lot of the Travis love was the afterglow of the success he had while playing alongside the best player in program history.  And that's why people say subjective things like "a winner" because the objective doesn't stack up.  (Never mind that without Wade there was only an average amount of winning.)

Markus was a better college basketball player.  I know he is associated with a pretty unsatisfactory era in Marquette basketball, but it is obvious that independent observers in those eras believed that was the case.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

MUDPT

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #237 on: September 23, 2023, 07:05:18 AM »
Markus isn't in TD's league...that's the one TD played in for years and could have remained had he wanted.

Wade is the first to say there's no FF without TD.

Travis played in 9 games his final NBA season.  But 30 NBA teams wanted him, so he went to Europe instead.

real chili 83

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #238 on: September 23, 2023, 07:28:00 AM »

Well, NBA performance isn't really relevant here.  Players like Butch Lee could never really hang on in the NBA .

Injuries (knee) killed his NBA career.  Good enough in his day to collect a ring. 

The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #239 on: September 23, 2023, 07:30:58 AM »
Injuries (knee) killed his NBA career.  Good enough in his day to collect a ring. 

Sure. As a back up point guard. Let’s not imply he was somehow integral to their success.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

TallTitan34

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #240 on: September 23, 2023, 08:03:10 AM »
I would retire jerseys for Chones and Markus.

If Kolek maintains his numbers I’d think he’d be a lock too.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #241 on: September 23, 2023, 08:09:36 AM »
Markus isn't in TD's league...that's the one TD played in for years and could have remained had he wanted.

Wade is the first to say there's no FF without TD.

The NBA is hardly travis' league but by your logic Juan Anderson and Buycks are both better than Vander, Gardner, Hayward, McNeal, and James. Is that a hill you want to die on?
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avid1010

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #242 on: September 23, 2023, 08:34:45 AM »
The NBA is hardly travis' league but by your logic Juan Anderson and Buycks are both better than Vander, Gardner, Hayward, McNeal, and James. Is that a hill you want to die on?
The NBA banter is fun.  Not a chance in hell TC takes Markus over Travis.  Not a chance in hell Shaka takes Markus over TK.  I will absolutely die on the hill that TD was a better college PG than Markus.

tower912

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #243 on: September 23, 2023, 08:35:46 AM »
Based on what?   Success with Wade?
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #244 on: September 23, 2023, 08:37:20 AM »
The NBA banter is fun.  Not a chance in hell TC takes Markus over Travis.  Not a chance in hell Shaka takes Markus over TK.  I will absolutely die on the hill that TD was a better college PG than Markus.

Ah. Shifting goalposts. Now you put the qualifier PG in there.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

Galway Eagle

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #245 on: September 23, 2023, 08:44:26 AM »
The NBA banter is fun.  Not a chance in hell TC takes Markus over Travis.  Not a chance in hell Shaka takes Markus over TK.  I will absolutely die on the hill that TD was a better college PG than Markus.

So do you just strongly believe the All American teams in 03-04 & 04-05 were biased against Marquette and that's why Travis didn't get the accolades that a player so much better than Markus would've deserved?

This is a simple thought process, is the Big East > CUSA? Yes that's objectively true. Did Markus win more games against tournament teams than Travis? Yes. Was Markus a Big East POY and was Travis CUSA POY? Yes to Markus, no to Travis. Was Markus a 2 time all American? Yes. Was Travis a 2 time all American? No.

So the take away is simple, in a tougher conference, Markus received higher accolades, with better results. These aren't opinions. You can say you just like Travis better that's fine, I loved watching him in the TBT and in the NBA as well but there's no realistic argument you can make that he was better.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2023, 08:55:45 AM by Galway Eagle »
Maigh Eo for Sam

MUfan12

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #246 on: September 23, 2023, 09:58:26 AM »
Diener would have thrived in this system. I don't know that Markus would have. His read on a ball screen was a green light dang near every time.

He was a tremendously gifted scorer and unreal to watch when he was cooking. I wish he had better coaching, and in a lot of ways, I'm sure he does too. The ability to run an offense and create for others is pretty much a necessity at his size to stick in the NBA as a backup guard.

I do find it interesting that what is being used to prop Markus' senior year up (look at the roster, he carried that team!) is being used against Diener's last two years. Travis had to dominate the ball those years because there was no one else who could get a bucket on their own. Novak's game hadn't developed beyond a spot shooter yet. The freshman class flaming out didn't help. A weird two years for sure.

If TK continues his trajectory he'll top this group of three.

The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #247 on: September 23, 2023, 10:24:15 AM »
Diener would have thrived in this system. I don't know that Markus would have. His read on a ball screen was a green light dang near every time.

He was a tremendously gifted scorer and unreal to watch when he was cooking. I wish he had better coaching, and in a lot of ways, I'm sure he does too. The ability to run an offense and create for others is pretty much a necessity at his size to stick in the NBA as a backup guard.

I do find it interesting that what is being used to prop Markus' senior year up (look at the roster, he carried that team!) is being used against Diener's last two years. Travis had to dominate the ball those years because there was no one else who could get a bucket on their own. Novak's game hadn't developed beyond a spot shooter yet. The freshman class flaming out didn't help. A weird two years for sure.

If TK continues his trajectory he'll top this group of three.

Difference is that Markus senior year was clearly a tournament team. Not so sure about Travis’
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real chili 83

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #248 on: September 23, 2023, 11:05:51 AM »
Sure. As a back up point guard. Let’s not imply he was somehow integral to their success.

Let’s not imply he wasn’t good enough to play in the NBA.

The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole

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Re: Poll: Markus Howard Jersey Retirement
« Reply #249 on: September 23, 2023, 11:17:22 AM »
Let’s not imply he wasn’t good enough to play in the NBA.

Lol. By stating he played in the NBA, I implied he wasn’t good enough to play in the NBA?  😂😂😂
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow