MU Admissions Update for 2023 and Beyond

[warriorchick]

Not blaming.  He would be well above the "average" GPA and SAT score.  To put it into the overall perspective, the universities are simply out for maximum revenue.  There are several schemes we are experiencing:
- admit but not into the school of choice... the University is hoping for an extra year of tuition due to transferring in to the school of choice

- No direct admission to colleges like business.  These schools are clearly and blatantly trying to keep students 5+ years.

It was disappointing for us to see MU playing one of these games.

That is a load of crap.

Marquette is very proud of its 4-year graduation rate and uses it as one of their primary recruiting tools. It helps counter the fact that it is more expensive per year than a state school where you may not be able to get into the classes you need to graduate on time.

Someone who wants to be a business major can easily take all Gen Eds freshman year and if their grades are good enough, transfer into the B-school Sophomore year and still graduate on time. My guess is that they could declare a Business minor and even take an intro Bus Ad course or two.

[Dr. Blackheart]

MU's admissions will go up 20% once we when another natty.  No worries here.

Nice job by MUAD and Admissions yesterday at the pre-game event.  I think they said 33 newly accepted applicants and their families were in attendance.  Travis gave a nice response about why being a MU grad is special and the relationships never leave you unlike other schools.

[PorkysButthole]

That is a load of crap.

Marquette is very proud of its 4-year graduation rate and uses it as one of their primary recruiting tools. It helps counter the fact that it is more expensive per year than a state school where you may not be able to get into the classes you need to graduate on time.

Someone who wants to be a business major can easily take all Gen Eds freshman year and if their grades are good enough, transfer into the B-school Sophomore year and still graduate on time. My guess is that they could declare a Business minor and even take an intro Bus Ad course or two.

Absolutely spot on!   The current MU Jr. from the MKE burbs Porky referenced who originally passed on MU out of high school for another large midwestern state university (not in WI) transferred to MU following their freshman year due to lack of direct admit to college of choice, more difficulty to get into classes needed to graduate in 4 years, and the fact that those classes would be considerably larger even if able to register for them.  The reasons she originally passed on MU may be superficial, but they're definitely real and MU needs to pay more attention to how they're perceived.  And this was a local student, not some snob from a rich suburb of Boston, NYC or DC.

[Macallan 18]

Marquette really is just fine. A smaller class focused on high revenue majors like business, engineering and nursing is a strong strategic enrollment play.

They mentioned the nursing expansion has paid off - nursing class of 200 (FY24-FY26) helps mitigate enrollment declines - and are going to work with the same consulting firm used in 2017 to determine which other majors should be expanded.

Even though there are direct admits to specific programs, there has been an increase in enrollments of undeclared majors within the college admits.  

The class shaping strategy looks to balance across multiple goals including (but not limited to):

• Headcount (e.g., Overall, by College, by Program)
• Diversity (e.g., Race/Ethnicity, Gender, Geography)
• Net Revenue
• Market Share
• Quality / Selectivity
• Program Array

Regarding Porky's question, they did not state an exact figure, just more than 13K. Should have said campus visits are #1 predictor of student putting in their deposit and accepting their admission offer.

Admissions has found that the following items in the recruiting process have the most impact on getting students to chose to come: 

• More and smaller recruiting events, initially started due to COVID, have continued as they appear to be effective.
• Targeted visit visit opportunities, for example to specific departments or programs the student is interested in.
• Students welcome and appreciate communication, for example text messages and pre-recorded voicemails from faculty in a students program.
• Individual financial aid counseling sessions for every in-coming student – this has helped a lot to overcome the initial sticker price as students and families can see what the real cost of coming to Marquette would be.

Here is an article from the Marquette Tribune with a few quotes from the presentation including this one regarding the change in valuing of education:

https://marquettewire.org/4091671/news/academic-senate-discusses-enrollment-commencement/

“Overall, students and families are increasingly questioning the value of higher education,” Troyer said. “When surveyed, Gen Z tends to value higher education less than their millennial counterparts.”

It is about 3K to go through the CDL program at MATC and you can be making 75k+ with benefits after you graduate. Not saying it is for everyone, but it goes against the narrative that you won't have a good paying job with benefits without a four year degree. And if you are smart with your money and invest wisley, you can retire by the time Elon has replaced all commercial trucks with self-driving and self-unloading semis.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Absolutely spot on!   The current MU Jr. from the MKE burbs Porky referenced who originally passed on MU out of high school for another large midwestern state university (not in WI) transferred to MU following their freshman year due to lack of direct admit to college of choice, more difficulty to get into classes needed to graduate in 4 years, and the fact that those classes would be considerably larger even if able to register for them.  The reasons she originally passed on MU may be superficial, but they're definitely real and MU needs to pay more attention to how they're perceived.  And this was a local student, not some snob from a rich suburb of Boston, NYC or DC.

Isn’t the lesson here that a student should go where they feel a fit, and various outcomes based metrics, versus some silly exclusivity stat?

[warriorchick]

Admissions has found that the following items in the recruiting process have the most impact on getting students to chose to come:

• More and smaller recruiting events, initially started due to COVID, have continued as they appear to be effective.
• Targeted visit visit opportunities, for example to specific departments or programs the student is interested in.
• Students welcome and appreciate communication, for example text messages and pre-recorded voicemails from faculty in a students program.
• Individual financial aid counseling sessions for every in-coming student – this has helped a lot to overcome the initial sticker price as students and families can see what the real cost of coming to Marquette would be.

Another thing that might be helpful is to target highly desired recruits the way the sports teams do.  My kids had high test scores and otherwise great-looking applications.  They got multiple phone calls from the same dedicated admissions counselor from several of the private schools to which they applied.  We were on a first-name basis with some of them.  Glow Jr. even got a phone call from the college dean of the program to which he had applied begging him to come for a visit.  At Butler, he got to meet Brad Stevens one-on-one, and they brought him into Hinkle and flipped the lights on for him like it was a scene out of Hoosiers.  Those schools made them feel like rock stars.

For their Marquette applications, they got the acceptance letter, the standard scholarship offer, and then, crickets.  If they hadn't been Marquette basketball fans since they were little kids, I am not sure that they would have even wound up going there.

[PorkysButthole]

Isn’t the lesson here that a student should go where they feel a fit, and various outcomes based metrics, versus some silly exclusivity stat?

Of course!   But given the substantial investment needed particularly for private higher education, not enough 18 year-olds (or their parents either unfortunately) think that way.   Those that do are mature beyond their years.   Applications to the most prestigious / exclusive institutions continue to increase to ridiculous levels and applications to most private schools not ranked in top 50 are declining in most cases.  Even the Ivy Admissions directors acknowledge it's ridiculous, but if they can't change people's behavior I don't see how a school like MU can.   Just sayin....

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Of course!   But given the substantial investment needed particularly for private higher education, not enough 18 year-olds (or their parents either unfortunately) think that way.   Those that do are mature beyond their years.   Applications to the most prestigious / exclusive institutions continue to increase to ridiculous levels and applications to most private schools not ranked in top 50 are declining in most cases.  Even the Ivy Admissions directors acknowledge it's ridiculous, but if they can't change people's behavior I don't see how a school like MU can.   Just sayin....

I actually thinks it’s the parents way more than the kids are those who care about these types of metrics.

Anyway, in a declining demographic environment, the acceptance rate isn’t going to go down.

[Warriors4ever]

Nice to hear that the pregame event was a good recruiting tool. I understand Lovell was in the walkway between the Marriott and Wintrust. Lots of MU fans at the game which would help show prospective students our fierce loyalty as well.
These stories always make me laugh when I think about how I applied to colleges  fifty years ago. I never visited one place, unless you count the fact that Northwestern was in Evanston and Loyola in Rogers Park, though I don’t know that I had actually been on Northwestern’s campus. I ended up at Marquette in large part because it was away, but not too far away, and close enough to have varied options for getting home when I wanted to do so. I think we came up in the summer just to scope out the dorm rooms. People put more thought into kindergarten than I did for either undergrad or law school, and I don’t think I was alone in that.

[Not A Serious Person]

Isn’t the lesson here that a student should go where they feel a fit, and various outcomes based metrics, versus some silly exclusivity stat?

Yes

But college is no longer about "higher education" (actually, it has not been for decades). It is about the credential.

So the driving determination of which school one goes to is the credential it bestows on one. Or its ranking (actual, like for US News, or perceived).

You probably agree with me that this is wrong, but it is the way of the world.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Yes

But college is no longer about "higher education" (actually, it has not been for decades). It is about the credential.

So the driving determination of which school one goes to is the credential it bestows on one. Or its ranking (actual, like for US News, or perceived).

You probably agree with me that this is wrong, but it is the way of the world.

Well...kind of. But you are making it way too simplistic.  I had a friend from Marquette who was in charge of recruitment at a "Big 6" accounting firm (back when there was 6.)  He said that in Wisconsin, they only recruited at four schools - Marquette, UWM, Madison and Whitewater. That has nothing to do with their USNWR ranking, or their acceptance rate.  It has to do with the quality of their accounting program. And my guess is that once you are placed in the firm, your career progression has little if nothing to do with the school where you received your undergraduate degree.

That's one of the things I meant by "outcome based metric." How is the program perceived in the workforce. One of my kids faced this choice when looking at schools. One placed graduates in cool jobs all over the place. The other he felt was a better fit, but didn't quite have the same reputation. He ended up going with the latter, and it has worked out for him just fine.

[cheebs09]

Well...kind of. But you are making it way too simplistic.  I had a friend from Marquette who was in charge of recruitment at a "Big 6" accounting firm (back when there was 6.)  He said that in Wisconsin, they only recruited at four schools - Marquette, UWM, Madison and Whitewater. That has nothing to do with their USNWR ranking, or their acceptance rate.  It has to do with the quality of their accounting program. And my guess is that once you are placed in the firm, your career progression has little if nothing to do with the school where you received your undergraduate degree.

That's one of the things I meant by "outcome based metric." How is the program perceived in the workforce. One of my kids faced this choice when looking at schools. One placed graduates in cool jobs all over the place. The other he felt was a better fit, but didn't quite have the same reputation. He ended up going with the latter, and it has worked out for him just fine.

Agreed. Marquette has some really top tier programs that I believe carry much more weight than acceptance rate.

[Not A Serious Person]

Well...kind of. But you are making it way too simplistic.  I had a friend from Marquette who was in charge of recruitment at a "Big 6" accounting firm (back when there was 6.)  He said that in Wisconsin, they only recruited at four schools - Marquette, UWM, Madison and Whitewater. That has nothing to do with their USNWR ranking, or their acceptance rate.  It has to do with the quality of their accounting program. And my guess is that once you are placed in the firm, your career progression has little if nothing to do with the school where you received your undergraduate degree.

That's one of the things I meant by "outcome based metric." How is the program perceived in the workforce. One of my kids faced this choice when looking at schools. One placed graduates in cool jobs all over the place. The other he felt was a better fit, but didn't quite have the same reputation. He ended up going with the latter, and it has worked out for him just fine.

You underestimate how much parents view a school as a credential first.

[muwarrior69]

Nice to hear that the pregame event was a good recruiting tool. I understand Lovell was in the walkway between the Marriott and Wintrust. Lots of MU fans at the game which would help show prospective students our fierce loyalty as well.
These stories always make me laugh when I think about how I applied to colleges  fifty years ago. I never visited one place, unless you count the fact that Northwestern was in Evanston and Loyola in Rogers Park, though I don’t know that I had actually been on Northwestern’s campus. I ended up at Marquette in large part because it was away, but not too far away, and close enough to have varied options for getting home when I wanted to do so. I think we came up in the summer just to scope out the dorm rooms. People put more thought into kindergarten than I did for either undergrad or law school, and I don’t think I was alone in that.

Same here living in Jersey. I just applied to various schools but never visited them. The only reason I applied to Marquette was because my 3rd cousin from Indiana went there and said she liked it. I also wanted to be far enough away where "home" would not be a distraction. I was also a pretty shy introverted kid so being so far away it forced me to overcome my shyness. My first elective was public speaking, which became so valuable on job interviews. Was not much of a basketball fan, until I came to Marquette and watched Al put us on the national stage.

[muwarrior69]

Brother Porky made some interesting observations that should not be glossed over. While I won't argue change is hard -- and I'm not an Admissions Officer so I don't have experience -- change is coming.

1) Illinois and particularly the Chicago suburbs is Marquette's second largest market after Wisconsin. Take a good hard look at what's happening in Illinois and then tell me we don't need change. The economy is a mess, corporations are pulling out for greener pastures (i.e., Caterpillar, Boeing, Citadel, Allstate is severely reducing its footprint, Takada etc) and the population is falling. The corporate headquarters that Illinois once could count on (including banks) are gone. Politically, the state hasn't done an especially good job of dealing with its problems, which may well cause an ever bigger flight in the years ahead.

I can't speak to population projections for Wisconsin, Minnesota, Michigan and Iowa but these states are aging and most likel;y not to be in a position to attract significant new economic investment.

2) Catholic Church Attendance. Compare the number of faithful who attend Mass today to as recently as 10 years ago and you'll see the numbers are way down. Without commitment to the faith, the Catholic primary and secondary education system becomes at risk. With few faithful and fewer attendees at Catholic schools comes fewer Catholic school candidates for Marquette.

3) Costs. This is more than just MU's costs, which I acknowledge are lower than the stated rate for most students. When one combines the cost of a private high school with a private university, there often is a choice between private high school and private universities.

Ultimately, I'd argue Marquette should focus on whatever works. I'd think Texas, Tennessee, So Cal and maybe Arizona would work, but the folks on campus know better than me. What I do know is the trends do not bode well for the University's traditional markets.

Brother Lawrence: I was admitted to the College of Journalism in the mid-1970s.

In the mid-60s from what I recall there was Schools for: Journalism, Business, Engineering, Nursing, Speech Therapy, Education and the Arts and Sciences with subsets like Medical Technology and Physical Therapy that one could directly apply. Of course there was the Medical, Dental and Law School. I might have missed some as its almost 60 years ago.

[PorkysButthole]

Interesting opinion piece in the NY Times today about how screwed up the admissions process has become at selective colleges.  Porky included the link for Scoopers that are also NYT subs and a Word Doc for those who aren't.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/16/opinion/college-admissions-common-app.html

[Herman Cain]

Interesting opinion piece in the NY Times today about how screwed up the admissions process has become at selective colleges.  Porky included the link for Scoopers that are also NYT subs and a Word Doc for those who aren't.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/16/opinion/college-admissions-common-app.html

PorkysButthole:
Thanks for sharing ( the document was helpful)

[GOO]

Does Marquette’s on court success this year make for more student’s accepting admission?  And more applying next year? 

I know it isn’t a final four run, but got a lot of pub.

Check out Villanova acceptance rates over the years IF that is a true indicator of team success leading to school success.  I do know they went from 50% to low 20% and they seem to attribute a lot of that to the teams success.

[Macallan 18]

Update on enrollment from Monday's UAS meeting.

Undergraduates:   

• May 1st is the deposit deadline.
• Goal for freshman class: 1,926 students. 
• 602 Deposits as of Monday, up 12 deposits over last year. Still a lot of work to do. 
• Diversity is strong again, about 31%; also good quality students.
• Campus visits: up 12% over last year. Campus visits are a good predictor of students putting in their deposits. 

Graduate:

• Up 38% in completed apps.
• Up 15% in matriculations.

There was also a recap of the February meeting of members of the UAS Executive Committee with the Board of Trustees Committee on Academic Excellence (CAE). Sounds like they could have used Wojo's help in making their PowerPoint.

The group presented data from the College of Arts and Sciences to show how while enrollment has been relatively steady in the college over 10 years, the number of tenure track faculty positions have been reduced by 31 positions to date, with the bulk of these changes happening in the last two years.

It was also discussed that staff positions across all areas at Marquette have been reduced by 240 positions since 2018. These changes resulted in many on campus feeling stretched thin, doing more teaching, more research, more advising, more service, more administrative work, or otherwise taking on the work of colleagues who have left the university.

The group reported a number of comments made by members of the Board of Trustees CAE that were not supportive of faculty and staff.

• A member said that the Board had reviewed data on Marquette's tenure track faculty and found that the average age of our faculty members was high, relative to other institutions.  Also that they noted differences in teaching loads across faculty with some faculty members teaching one course and others teaching more. This was found to reflect an “abuse of tenure” and that it was a goal to have fewer tenure track faculty.
• A Board member also indicated that they felt the newly created Faculty budget committee was a “bad idea” and not a good structure, despite the UAS group working hard with the executive leadership team to create a structure that can strengthen shared governance in the area of budgets and financial decisions.
• A board member scoffed at their concerns over Marquette’s higher expenses for upper administration, saying that they didn’t think President Lovell would want to be paid like a Jesuit.

The faculty members of the UAS executive committee stated they left that meeting feeling unheard, disrespected, and not valued.

[MUfan12]

It was also discussed that staff positions across all areas at Marquette have been reduced by 240 positions since 2018. These changes resulted in many on campus feeling stretched thin, doing more teaching, more research, more advising, more service, more administrative work, or otherwise taking on the work of colleagues who have left the university.

This doesn't surprise me at all, and the budgeted compensation they have to backfill positions is so uncompetitive it's crazy, even for higher ed.

[shoothoops]

Update on enrollment from Monday's UAS meeting.

Undergraduates:   

• May 1st is the deposit deadline.
• Goal for freshman class: 1,926 students. 
• 602 Deposits as of Monday, up 12 deposits over last year. Still a lot of work to do. 
• Diversity is strong again, about 31%; also good quality students.
• Campus visits: up 12% over last year. Campus visits are a good predictor of students putting in their deposits. 

Graduate:

• Up 38% in completed apps.
• Up 15% in matriculations.

There was also a recap of the February meeting of members of the UAS Executive Committee with the Board of Trustees Committee on Academic Excellence (CAE). Sounds like they could have used Wojo's help in making their PowerPoint.

The group presented data from the College of Arts and Sciences to show how while enrollment has been relatively steady in the college over 10 years, the number of tenure track faculty positions have been reduced by 31 positions to date, with the bulk of these changes happening in the last two years.

It was also discussed that staff positions across all areas at Marquette have been reduced by 240 positions since 2018. These changes resulted in many on campus feeling stretched thin, doing more teaching, more research, more advising, more service, more administrative work, or otherwise taking on the work of colleagues who have left the university.

The group reported a number of comments made by members of the Board of Trustees CAE that were not supportive of faculty and staff.

• A member said that the Board had reviewed data on Marquette's tenure track faculty and found that the average age of our faculty members was high, relative to other institutions.  Also that they noted differences in teaching loads across faculty with some faculty members teaching one course and others teaching more. This was found to reflect an “abuse of tenure” and that it was a goal to have fewer tenure track faculty.
• A Board member also indicated that they felt the newly created Faculty budget committee was a “bad idea” and not a good structure, despite the UAS group working hard with the executive leadership team to create a structure that can strengthen shared governance in the area of budgets and financial decisions.
• A board member scoffed at their concerns over Marquette’s higher expenses for upper administration, saying that they didn’t think President Lovell would want to be paid like a Jesuit.

The faculty members of the UAS executive committee stated they left that meeting feeling unheard, disrespected, and not valued.

Diversity? Geographic diversity? Do you have geographic numbers by region? i.e. Northeast, Mid-Atlantic, Southeast, South, Mid-South, SouthWest, West Coast, Northwest?

And do you have the specific racial diversity numbers?

Thanks.

[Macallan 18]

Diversity? Geographic diversity? Do you have geographic numbers by region? i.e. Northeast, Mid-Atlantic, Southeast, South, Mid-South, SouthWest, West Coast, Northwest?

And do you have the specific racial diversity numbers?

Thanks.

They did not have that level of breakdown. Although the Admissions Office said they are an avid reader of Scoop and know how important it is for them to prioritize increasing the Northeast recruiting pipeline.

Data for previous classes can be found on the Institutional Research and Analysis website. They usually publish the latest class data at the start of Fall semester.

There is a dashboard for all students enrolled, although it looks like they do not break out racial diversity other than White and Students of Color -
https://www.marquette.edu/institutional-research-analysis/interactive-reports/enrollment-dash.php

There is also a dashboard with just the First-Year Student data - https://www.marquette.edu/institutional-research-analysis/interactive-reports/freshman-dash.php

[mu_hilltopper]

Wow .. MU is at 42% men, 58% women now.  I know that imbalance is happening all over.  Looks like in 2021, for the US, it was 59.5% women.

https://feed.georgetown.edu/access-affordability/women-increasingly-outnumber-men-at-u-s-colleges-but-why/

I wonder what %age triggers special programs and scholarships to encourage men to enroll?  35%?  30%?

If male participation was lower than, say, non-white participation, would there be a change in policy?

[Macallan 18]

Does Marquette’s on court success this year make for more student’s accepting admission?  And more applying next year? 

I know it isn’t a final four run, but got a lot of pub.

Check out Villanova acceptance rates over the years IF that is a true indicator of team success leading to school success.  I do know they went from 50% to low 20% and they seem to attribute a lot of that to the teams success.

Well according to the Dean of Undergraduate Admissions there is no direct correlation, but it doesn't hurt - https://www.wpr.org/marquette-university-national-spotlight-ncaa-march-madness-tournament

Troyer said there's not a direct correlation to an increase in student enrollment for events like this, but he did say it doesn't hurt. Marquette will also likely air commercials showcasing the university during the games they appear in.

"When events like this happen, I think what it does is it draws positive attention to some universities who sometimes high school students aren't really thinking about," he said.

Troyer said it can make high schoolers who have already accepted offers for Marquette even more excited to be enrolled. It can also put the university "on the map" for other students who are still thinking about where to go for college.

[Macallan 18]

Wow .. MU is at 42% men, 58% women now.  I know that imbalance is happening all over.  Looks like in 2021, for the US, it was 59.5% women.

https://feed.georgetown.edu/access-affordability/women-increasingly-outnumber-men-at-u-s-colleges-but-why/

I wonder what %age triggers special programs and scholarships to encourage men to enroll?  35%?  30%?

If male participation was lower than, say, non-white participation, would there be a change in policy?

The Chronicle of Higher Education did a series on this topic and it has been a tough sell at other higher education institutions to create programs to increase male (especially white male) enrollment - https://www.chronicle.com/article/the-problem-nobodys-talking-about

At USF, years of efforts to raise graduation rates have virtually eliminated completion gaps by race, ethnicity, and socioeconomic status. Yet the gender gap remains, with women nearly 25-percent more likely to graduate on time than men.

Even so, the mentoring program was a tough sell, especially since the second-most underperforming group, relative to women, is white men, just behind Asian men.

“The fact that white men are not doing well at USF doesn’t cause too much concern,” among many faculty and staff members, said Cummings. Carmen Goldsmith, executive liaison to the vice president for student success, says white men are “even harder for people to get behind, because it’s an even more privileged group” than men in general.

Robbins, of Stony Brook University, faced similar pushback when he created his male-success team and began interviewing groups of men about their challenges.

“We needed to explain over and over again why it was important for half the population to be educated,” said Robbins, who is now the college’s executive director of the Center for Changing Systems of Power.