Jim McIlvaine's Tweet about MU/X

[The Lens]

The 08 team got screwed by the Big East schedule and got seeded one line below ND, who they had beat twice.

I will also throw out that the 02 team was better than the 03 team.

KenPom thinks so but Wade grew a lot as a leader + Travis as a starter + River Jackson.

[brewcity77]

But lumping a regular season BE champ, NCAA #3 seed, Elite 8 team with a 2019 team with very little in the way of accomplishments is, with all due respect (and I mean that) way, way off.

2013 isn't in my top-3 since the F4. Neither is 2019. If that's lumping them together, then I'm also lumping 2015, 2021, and 2014 with them.

I think there's three teams with "best since" claims and seventeen other teams. My point was more to say why I put 2012 ahead of teams like 2013 & 2019, not to compare 2013 & 2019. You're the only one doing that.

[withoutbias]

10-11 played 4 games against top 25 teams prior to the NCAA Tournament. 11-12 played 8 games against top 25 teams prior to the NCAA Tournament.

But KenPom is the anti crystal ball. It is correct. Algorithms have taken over sports and you cannot argue it. They say we’re winning 10 of the last 12. So 16-4 we are this year in the Big East. Awesome.

[brewcity77]

10-11 played 4 games against top 25 teams prior to the NCAA Tournament. 11-12 played 8 games against top 25 teams prior to the NCAA Tournament.

But KenPom is the anti crystal ball. It is correct. Algorithms have taken over sports and you cannot argue it. They say we’re winning 10 of the last 12. So 16-4 we are this year in the Big East. Awesome.

I started this year thinking this was a top-25 team, single digit seed, and top-3 in the Big East. Really, not much has changed except the on-court play slightly elevating my expectations.

[MU82]

KenPom thinks so but Wade grew a lot as a leader + Travis as a starter + River Jackson.

Wait ... KenPom actually had the '02 team as being better than the '03 team?

[Newsdreams]

Imagine if the 1969, 70, 71, 72, 73,74, 75, 76, and 78 teams had Wade. Instead of the one title in 77, we win 10 in a row!

Imagine if they had Butch...

[dgies9156]

Imagine if the 1969, 70, 71, 72, 73,74, 75, 76, and 78 teams had Wade. Instead of the one title in 77, we win 10 in a row!

Its not like we had a shortage of great guards in those days:

Dean Meminger
Allie McGuire
Sugar Frazier
Marcus Washington
Lloyd Walton
Butch Lee
Jim Boylan
Sam Worthen

These guys were really good and, while not Dwyane quality, did wonderus things for our program!

I'm with you Goose, those early teams were special.

[brewcity77]

Wait ... KenPom actually had the '02 team as being better than the '03 team?

Marginally more efficient. The adjusted efficiency margin in 2002 was +21.47, in 2003 it was +21.30. The 2002 team was ranked 11th, the 2003 team 15th. However, had if you swapped those numbers, the rankings wouldn't change. The 2002 team would've been ranked 15th in 2003 and the 2003 team would've been ranked 11th in 2002.

There are a few reasons for this. First, it's because the defense was terrible in 2003. Like worst to ever make a Final Four bad. 2002 had an excellent defense. And while the 2002 offense wasn't nearly as good as 2003, Diener was more efficient as a lower usage freshman and Cordell Henry and Oluoma Nnmaka were both solid enough to round out a good but not great offense.

2003 was by far the best offense (and people generally remember great offenses better) under Crean or Buzz and the postseason accomplishments lead us to remember them more fondly. The only Marquette offense in the kenpom era to rank better than 2003 was 2017, though that defense was even worse.

[Dr. Blackheart]

River Jackson.

Was this Rob's nickname or were you drunk posting?

[Galway Eagle]

Marginally more efficient. The adjusted efficiency margin in 2002 was +21.47, in 2003 it was +21.30. The 2002 team was ranked 11th, the 2003 team 15th. However, had if you swapped those numbers, the rankings wouldn't change. The 2002 team would've been ranked 15th in 2003 and the 2003 team would've been ranked 11th in 2002.

There are a few reasons for this. First, it's because the defense was terrible in 2003. Like worst to ever make a Final Four bad. 2002 had an excellent defense. And while the 2002 offense wasn't nearly as good as 2003, Diener was more efficient as a lower usage freshman and Cordell Henry and Oluoma Nnmaka were both solid enough to round out a good but not great offense.

2003 was by far the best offense (and people generally remember great offenses better) under Crean or Buzz and the postseason accomplishments lead us to remember them more fondly. The only Marquette offense in the kenpom era to rank better than 2003 was 2017, though that defense was even worse.

It's wild what being on the right side of a game in a single elimination bracket can do to peoples fondness for a team. Davidson doesn't throw the ball away or Rotnei Clarke hits the second insane three and we forget the 2013 team. 2003 Holy Cross wins and Wades tenure is viewed as a waste. Meanwhile if Jimmy and Lazar don't misread Quincy Pondexter's drive 2010 same with the Tulsa loss I'm sure in 2002, very easily could be talking about that team as a great run.

Edit: or Stanford or 78, 71 or 69 iirc those were all single possession tournament losses.

[The Lens]

Was this Rob's nickname or were you drunk posting?

You've obviously never played cards with him.

[Lennys Tap]

2013 and 2019 were the other two I'd mention as having flashes, but neither were in this conversation, IMO.

You didn’t lump 2013 and 2019 together. Really? C’mon, Brew.

[Dr. Blackheart]

You've obviously never played cards with him.

The Lens knows cards (and ball).

[brewcity77]

You didn’t lump 2013 and 2019 together. Really? C’mon, Brew.

Only in the sense that I lumped every non-2008, 2009, and 2012 team together. You're trying to make this into something it's not. There's three teams worth considering. 2013 and 2019 are not among that group.

[warriorchick]

Jim elaborates...

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=5930740986985449&id=205603912832547&sfnsn=mo&extid=a&mibextid=6aamW6

[Lennys Tap]

Only in the sense that I lumped every non-2008, 2009, and 2012 team together. You're trying to make this into something it's not. There's three teams worth considering. 2013 and 2019 are not among that group.

No you didn’t. You specifically mentioned 2013 and 2019 (no others) implying that they were next in line. And certainly 2013 should have been at the very worst next in line. 2019? Not in the same universe.

[4everwarriors]

Imagine if Vanilla Soft Serve was on this year's team, hey?

[Goose]

Doc

Thank God he is not, he is a coach killer.

[tower912]

Too slow.  Doesn't defend.  Ball stopper.

[brewcity77]

No you didn’t. You specifically mentioned 2013 and 2019 (no others) implying that they were next in line. And certainly 2013 should have been at the very worst next in line. 2019? Not in the same universe.

You're trying to argue over the fourth best team. Just stop. You're literally the only person that thinks this is a discussion.

[Uncle Rico]

Imagine if Vanilla Soft Serve was on this year's team, hey?

I miss seeing Marquette guys fall down in random spots

[Uncle Rico]

Doc

Thank God he is not, he is a coach killer.

Michigan State 2019: Final 4
Michigan State 2020: Co-Big Ten Champs

Michigan State 2021: 15-13, 9-11, 11-seed play-in
Michigan State 2022: 19-15, 11-9, 7-seed, eliminated in the 2nd Round
Second worst two year stretch of the Tom Izzo era

Best team result: 2019 with Marquette, 24-10, 12-6, 5-seed

🤷🏼‍♂️

[wadesworld]

The current 30 year old version?  Or the Crayon letter writing one that tried to pass it around to the team to have sign it when he was in college at MU like a decade ago?

[Newsdreams]

Jim elaborates...

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=5930740986985449&id=205603912832547&sfnsn=mo&extid=a&mibextid=6aamW6

Me thinks Jim reads Scoop

[tower912]

If so, thanks, Jim, for all you gave and continue to give to MU.