Bronny James?

[wadesworld]

No, but he used the threat of free agency to force the team to makes moves to build a championship roster around him.
Moron Dan Gilbert wouldn't do that, so LeBron bailed.

Giannis is great and all, but anyone who thinks prime Giannis is in the neighborhood of prime LeBron is clueless.

Giannis is absolutely in the same neighborhood as prime LeBron.

[panda]

No, but this is an NBA title. Arguing otherwise comes across as petty and juvenile. I don't think any NBA franchise would've turned down the title in the bubble.

Nothing says playoff basketball like no fans, no travel and no home court advantage.

[JWags85]

Do yourself a favor, Wags. Go check the roster LeBron carried to the finals in 2007.
Then let us know if Jokic could do that.

What are we even arguing? I never said Lebron wasn't great or that 2007 was impressive?  All my point was that arguing for Lebron, right now, as a top 5 player alongside Jokic/Embiid, even without their titles, is silly.  Then Jockey had to take a dig at Jokic versus Lebron 10-12 years ago.  So I pointed things out.  Im not a fan, but I wasn't digging at Lebron at all.

But, you like advanced statistic, Jokic just put up a VORP that Lebron only eclipsed twice in his career.  His BPM in 2022 was higher than any Lebron ever put up (and last year eclipsed all but 1 of Lebron' seasons), and his PER over the last two years is markedly higher than any 2 year stretch Lebron had in his career (including the highest single season PER in history this year).  All in a substantially harder conference than the mid/late 2000s East.

Jokic obviously isn't in top 2 discussion of all time, and has miles to go in his career before he enters Lebron level discussions, but its not inconceivable that he would have been able to move mountains like Lebron in the East back then.  2007 was an insane singular effort, but they both have outsized impacts in the game and fill box scores in meaningful ways.  Its just not apples to apples and its neither of their faults.  The back to back MVPs in the modern era is pretty heady company and his MVP seasons have been tremendous.

[The Sultan]

Nothing says playoff basketball like no fans, no travel and no home court advantage.

I mean...we were in a pandemic. Everyone faced the same conditions.

[Pakuni]

Giannis is absolutely in the same neighborhood as prime LeBron.

Dude, no.
I'm not even a LBJ fan, but he's legitimately in the conversation for the GOAT (he's not, but there's a case to be made), and is widely considered top 3 of all time.
Nobody, and I mean nobody, thinks that of Giannis. Great player, first ballot HOFer, etc., for sure. But he's not at that level.

[wadesworld]

I mean...we were in a pandemic. Everyone faced the same conditions.

Plus the Lakers were the 1 seed and would've had home court until the Finals, but then the Heat made the Finals so they would've had the higher seed for the Finals anyway.

So lack of crowd and home court hurt them more than anything.

[wadesworld]

Dude, no.
I'm not even a LBJ fan, but he's legitimately in the conversation for the GOAT (he's not, but there's a case to be made), and is widely considered top 3 of all time.
Nobody, and I mean nobody, thinks that of Giannis. Great player, first ballot HOFer, etc., for sure. But he's not at that level.

You were talking about the players in their prime. Giannis is currently very much in the same neighborhood that LeBron was in his prime. The question is can Giannis get another couple rings and still be one of, if not the, best player for another decade? That's why LBJ is in the GOAT conversation. If Giannis does do that, he'll be in that conversation too.

[panda]

I mean...we were in a pandemic. Everyone faced the same conditions.

And in the same conditions every other season, the lebron lakers have made the playoffs once as a seven seed and missed out the two other seasons. Just a near miss on a dynasty.

[The Sultan]

And in the same conditions every other season, the lebron lakers have made the playoffs once as a seven seed and missed out the two other seasons. Just a near miss on a dynasty.

And you're shifting goalposts again....  🙄🙄🙄

[panda]

And you're shifting goalposts again....  🙄🙄🙄

I'm addressing your statement with a response showing how the bubble championship is not a fair reflection on actual professional basketball.

[panda]

It didn't work. Just like nothing has worked for them in the last 20 years.

Maybe it was because a team shouldn't acquiesce to a players demands when it does nothing to help the organization. 

[The Sultan]

I'm addressing your statement with a response showing how the bubble championship is not a fair reflection on actual professional basketball.

You really think the only reason that season ended differently was the bubble? 

[Lennys Tap]

The irony here is stunning.

WTF? LOL

[Lennys Tap]

He's going to have a long life. This won't harm him regardless.

I sincerely hope that you're right.

[forgetful]

Dude, no.
I'm not even a LBJ fan, but he's legitimately in the conversation for the GOAT (he's not, but there's a case to be made), and is widely considered top 3 of all time.
Nobody, and I mean nobody, thinks that of Giannis. Great player, first ballot HOFer, etc., for sure. But he's not at that level.

Not disagreeing with anything you said, but it is important to remember that LBJ is in that conversation because of his longevity.

Giannis has a lot of years left, his story is yet to be written.

[The Sultan]

Win shares though nine seasons. Both were 27 years old...

LBJ:  133.5
Giannis:  87.5

I love Giannis.  LBJ's peak is way better.

[The Sultan]

Win shares though nine seasons. Both were 27 years old...

LBJ:  133.5
Giannis:  87.5

I love Giannis.  LBJ's peak is way better.

MJ: 147.6...despite a 1.5 his second year when he was injured.

[brewcity77]

I'm addressing your statement with a response showing how the bubble championship is not a fair reflection on actual professional basketball.

So when does the moment come that you realize the completely inane and juvenile hill you chose to die on is really a deep, deep valley. 

Clearly the topic is no longer about Bronny and instead about Lebron. Was there this much debate over whether or not Michael was the GOAT when the Bulls were in their second title run? I know plenty of people disliked Michael, but I don't feel like his greatness itself was polarizing. I think I'll always be Team MJ over Team Lebron, but comparing the flavor of the day to Lebron (and I'm also a big Giannis fan, but come on), questioning if the guy is still a great player (terrible GM, but clearly still one of the best in the world), or debating his place in history (I'd say #2 at worst) seems like really stretching to discredit someone for...I'm not sure what.

So for the older hats who might've seen Michael's legacy in the moment more clearly than teenage me did, was he scrutinized as much and as polarizing as Lebron? Were the Magic defenders (or whomever) as staunchly anti-Michael as the anti-Lebron crowd is now?

As a sports fan, if it isn't my team winning, my favorite thing to celebrate is greatness. That's why I'll pull for the Messi World Cup, for Gonzaga to complete the undefeated season, or for someone like Lebron to be Lebron. If I can't have the title myself, give me the history that makes for the best story in 20 or 30 years.

[panda]

You really think the only reason that season ended differently was the bubble?

Given how the lakers performed in actual real life nba circumstances, yes I do think there would be a different outcome.

[panda]

So when does the moment come that you realize the completely inane and juvenile hill you chose to die on is really a deep, deep valley. 

Clearly the topic is no longer about Bronny and instead about Lebron. Was there this much debate over whether or not Michael was the GOAT when the Bulls were in their second title run? I know plenty of people disliked Michael, but I don't feel like his greatness itself was polarizing. I think I'll always be Team MJ over Team Lebron, but comparing the flavor of the day to Lebron (and I'm also a big Giannis fan, but come on), questioning if the guy is still a great player (terrible GM, but clearly still one of the best in the world), or debating his place in history (I'd say #2 at worst) seems like really stretching to discredit someone for...I'm not sure what.

So for the older hats who might've seen Michael's legacy in the moment more clearly than teenage me did, was he scrutinized as much and as polarizing as Lebron? Were the Magic defenders (or whomever) as staunchly anti-Michael as the anti-Lebron crowd is now?

As a sports fan, if it isn't my team winning, my favorite thing to celebrate is greatness. That's why I'll pull for the Messi World Cup, for Gonzaga to complete the undefeated season, or for someone like Lebron to be Lebron. If I can't have the title myself, give me the history that makes for the best story in 20 or 30 years.

So as a sports fan, it shouldn't be too difficult to see the differences in pressure and circumstance between playing in an empty gym and in front of 20,000 people on the road right?

[Uncle Rico]

So as a sports fan, it shouldn't be too difficult to see the differences in pressure and circumstance between playing in an empty gym and in front of 20,000 people on the road right?

I'm sure Lakers fans and members of the organization are devastated some fans don't think their title is real. 

[brewcity77]

Given how the lakers performed in actual real life nba circumstances, yes I do think there would be a different outcome.

The real life circumstances were also wildly different. The next year's team had far less Anthony Davis and added empty calories Andre Drummond. It also had far too much Dennis Schroder. As others have mentioned, the Lakers were the 1-seed and because of that, the loss of home court advantage was a disadvantage for them more than any other team.

So as a sports fan, it shouldn't be too difficult to see the differences in pressure and circumstance between playing in an empty gym and in front of 20,000 people on the road right?

Who gives a s**t if it's different? The Los Angeles Lakers are universally recognized as the 2020 NBA Champions and Lebron James is universally recognized as that Finals MVP. Did Baylor's title not count? Did the Golden Eagles TBT title not count? Did the 2021 Olympics not count? The answer to all of those is obviously no and it is beyond ridiculous to make a case otherwise.

[panda]

I'm sure Lakers fans and members of the organization are devastated some fans don't think their title is real.

They can take solace in their otherwise very successful finishes the last ten years 

[MUDPT]

It's widely known that the NBA will expand by two more teams soon, in Vegas and Seattle.  LeBron will be a part of one of the ownership groups through his relationship with FSG (own the Red Sox and Liverpool FC).  For what it's worth, I've seen scouts say Bronny has been a lot better this summer. Nowhere near the top of his class, but has really improved.

[wadesworld]

Win shares though nine seasons. Both were 27 years old...

LBJ:  133.5
Giannis:  87.5

I love Giannis.  LBJ's peak is way better.

Again, we're talking prime, not career or career through certain years. LBJ came in as a top 15 player in the NBA. Giannis came in as not even a top 8 player on a bad Bucks team.