Protecting the Constitution

[Uncle Rico]

Pfft. Belief in the Establishment Clause is for suckers.

You can make the constitution say anything

[ATL MU Warrior]

You can make the constitution bible say anything

[Uncle Rico]

Bible is the most dangerous book ever written

[NCMUFan]

Have you read it?

[MUBurrow]

The difference is that Roe said the states could have a compelling interest to restrict abortion, but never addressed whether the states must restrict abortion in the 3rd trimester. If the question of personhood does come before the court I could see mid/late term abortions being banned in all states or at least challenged where  a dad or grandparent who have standing is willing to care for the child. Are you arguing that the unborn should not have any rights even though Roe ruled there is a compelling state interest?

Not at all. I am arguing that under Roe, we had least narrowed the questions to post-viability/third trimester.  Now its the wild west for... reasons?

[jficke13]

I did not expect a lot of reasoned analysis in here, but somehow we've managed to run into a bar that was so low as to be lying on the floor.

Couple things:

1. None of the Justices lied during their confirmation hearings. They told very precise and technical truths (Aes Sedai truths, for those of you familiar with the Wheel of Time series). They relied on everyone else to either lie to themselves about what "settled law" meant, to be ignorant about what it meant, or to (here's looking at you Senators) rely on that language to afford them plausible deniability in moving forward with the confirmations. Nobody who has traveled in confirmation circles at any point post Bork actually thinks they lied under oath. If they are saying as much, they're resistance grifters and are performing outrage for you.
2. Moral/ethical analysis of abortion aside, there are very serious legal implications of this decision. If you read a decision that includes some variant of "for these reasons we confine this ruling to this case only" and believe it will have not have precedential effect beyond this case only, you're a sucker.
3. You're a sucker if you read Thomas' concurrence as the ravings of a madman.

[Uncle Rico]

Have you read it?

Yes, raised Catholic.  Broke free later in life

[lawdog77]

Yes, raised Catholic.  Broke free later in life

Good for you. Keep your religious opinions to yourself, hypocrite.

[Uncle Rico]

Good for you. Keep your religious opinions to yourself, hypocrite.

I don't think I will.  Religion kills

[JWags85]

Its splitting hairs, but I wonder if there isn't a better term that could be used for "treatment" for ectopic pregnancy or other procedures where a pregnancy is terminated but strictly due to medical reasons/maternal safety.

Far too many pro-life people hear "abortion" and immediately think of a back alley wire hanger job except done in a doctor's office.  I'm not saying it would swing people to pro-choice, but it could at least maybe help with some of the use case scenarios instead of blanket abortion bans.

[Uncle Rico]

Its splitting hairs, but I wonder if there isn't a better term that could be used for "treatment" for ectopic pregnancy or other procedures where a pregnancy is terminated but strictly due to medical reasons/maternal safety.

Far too many pro-life people hear "abortion" and immediately think of a back alley wire hanger job except done in a doctor's office.  I'm not saying it would swing people to pro-choice, but it could at least maybe help with some of the use case scenarios instead of blanket abortion bans.

Sounds good but I'm very skeptical

[ATL MU Warrior]

Its splitting hairs, but I wonder if there isn't a better term that could be used for "treatment" for ectopic pregnancy or other procedures where a pregnancy is terminated but strictly due to medical reasons/maternal safety.

Far too many pro-life people hear "abortion" and immediately think of a back alley wire hanger job except done in a doctor's office.  I'm not saying it would swing people to pro-choice, but it could at least maybe help with some of the use case scenarios instead of blanket abortion bans.

It wouldn't help.  Zealots don't/won't care about nuance.  It's all or nothing.

[dgies9156]

My family would not exist without abortion. My wife would be dead and my children would never have been born. Abortion saves lives and saves families.

I can make exactly the same argument in reverse. Both of my children were orphans who were carried to term by single women. If abortion were widespread in the communities in which they were born, neither would be alive today and  my wife and I would not have the family we have.

We have no knowledge of who these women are but we honor their commitment to the life they carried within them every day. We are extremely grateful for the sacrifice they made and the gift they gave us.

[The Sultan]

Have you read it?

I have. It's full of contradictions - and those contradictions have been used for centuries to justify using it as a hammer.

Regardless, I focus mostly on the gospels and Jesus' central message of love and forgiveness. His favorite disciple John tended to get that message as is reflected in his letters.

The Pauline letters are filled with Old Testament type thinking with some decent nuggets here and there. Most likely chosen for inclusion due to their legalistic nature preferred by Church leaders at the time...or at any time really.

The Old Testament is good for some historical context, some good wisdom (like Ecclesiastes) and interesting stories.

Not sure what any of this has to do with abortion.

[NCMUFan]

Bible is the most dangerous book ever written

[Pakuni]

I can make exactly the same argument in reverse. Both of my children were orphans who were carried to term by single women. If abortion were widespread in the communities in which they were born, neither would be alive today and  my wife and I would not have the family we have.

We have no knowledge of who these women are but we honor their commitment to the life they carried within them every day. We are extremely grateful for the sacrifice they made and the gift they gave us.

If you don't know these women, how do you know abortion was or wasn't widespread in their communities? Or that they would have chosen abortion if it were?
Bottom line ... those women made a choice. A choice other women are not being deprived.

[Hards Alumni]

Do people who think they are women when they are men or vice versa and people who think men can have babies think anyone takes them seriously?

Life is scary when the world changes and leaves you behind.

[Hards Alumni]

How about all the police officers murdered during the burn loot and murder riots in 2020?

Not even a top 20 most dangerous job in the US.

More died from Covid than from being 'murdered'.  Clown.

[Shaka Shart]

A big win for Joe Kennedy and football coaches everywhere. A lot of winning going on lately. 

I understand the freedom to quietly pray but if you read the actual case, players testified as saying they felt compelled or risked playing time as the coach would go to the middle of the field and hold up a helmet. If you've played a team sport, you would know that's pretty much universally a sign to gather.

Anyway, the Ninth Circuit's denial of rehearing actually states that after refusing alternative accommodations to pray from the school district, he advertised in the area newspaper and local/national TV stations that he intended to defy they request.

He then proceeded to pray out loud in the middle of the field immediately after he sued the school district with making sure that local politicians and members of the media were recording the event.

Feels really icky and not in good faith (unintentional).

But I guess to quote Matthew 6:5

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

Or was this only all about winning as it usually is?

[Hards Alumni]

I'm thinkin' y'all are wrong. The divide is too great and its a bridge too far. Hopefully I'm wrong, hey?

You were old in 1968 and probably said the same thing.

Going to be painful to be wrong again, aina?

[Hards Alumni]

That is your opinion and I respect that, but many would disagree with your opinion. The Court sent it back to the states to decide. I have no doubt the personhood question will come before the Supreme court at some point and they will have to decide. Even if they granted personhood status it would not ban abortion it would only grant the fetus equal protection and many of these difficult decision would be decided on a case by case ruling.

https://theconversation.com/what-is-personhood-the-ethics-question-that-needs-a-closer-look-in-abortion-debates-182745

And millions of idiots in the US believe that climate change isn't real.

That doesn't change the facts on the ground.

Science doesn't care about your 'opinions'.

[Pakuni]

I understand the freedom to quietly pray but if you read the actual case, players testified as saying they felt compelled or risked playing time as the coach would go to the middle of the field and hold up a helmet. If you've played a team sport, you would know that's pretty much universally a sign to gather.

Anyway, the Ninth Circuit's denial of rehearing actually states that after refusing alternative accommodations to pray from the school district, he advertised in the area newspaper and local/national TV stations that he intended to defy they request.

He then proceeded to pray out loud in the middle of the field immediately after he sued the school district with making sure that local politicians and members of the media were recording the event.

Feels really icky and not in good faith (unintentional).

But I guess to quote Matthew 6:5

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

Or was this only all about winning as it usually is?

No doubt the same people celebrating this ruling would be thrilled if a Muslim coach led players in prayer at the 50-yard line.

[Hards Alumni]

Its splitting hairs, but I wonder if there isn't a better term that could be used for "treatment" for ectopic pregnancy or other procedures where a pregnancy is terminated but strictly due to medical reasons/maternal safety.

Far too many pro-life people hear "abortion" and immediately think of a back alley wire hanger job except done in a doctor's office.  I'm not saying it would swing people to pro-choice, but it could at least maybe help with some of the use case scenarios instead of blanket abortion bans.

I guess we don't actually care about 'life' then, do we?  Ectopic pregnancies and aborting them to save the mother terminates a viable pregnancy.  It's been clearly established that the life of a clump of cells trumps that of a living breathing woman... who statistically speaking, already has children.  Let's leave her existing children motherless because abortion is illegal.  That'll truly fix the country.

I know you're trying to be reasonable here, and I am too, but that isn't where the US is anymore.  Extremist Christian Fundamentalists (the minority) are in control, and are imposing their dogmatic views on the majority.

[Hards Alumni]

I can make exactly the same argument in reverse. Both of my children were orphans who were carried to term by single women. If abortion were widespread in the communities in which they were born, neither would be alive today and  my wife and I would not have the family we have.

We have no knowledge of who these women are but we honor their commitment to the life they carried within them every day. We are extremely grateful for the sacrifice they made and the gift they gave us.

I'm sorry, but abortion is perfectly legal in Ukraine. Which is where one of your children is from, if I am not mistaken.

Abortion in Ukraine is legal on request during the first twelve weeks of pregnancy. Between 12 and 28 weeks, abortion is available on a variety of grounds, including medical, social and personal grounds, and for any reason with the approval of a commission of physicians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Ukraine

So, your argument is pretty moot here.  If they'd have been aborted your life would have been different and you'd have different kids.  And you'd never know the difference.

What point are you attempting to make here?

[Hards Alumni]

Have you read it?

It's on the level of Aesop's fables.  Except Aesop's fables didn't contradict itself nearly as much, nor kill as many innocent people.