Buffalo shooting, take 2

[dgies9156]

Look guys, I didn't just sit for a Public Policy Exam. I expressed my thoughts about crime and punishment.

So let's deal with reality in this country and come down from idealistic concepts that will never happen.

1) America is the most diverse society in the world. We're about the only country in the world not built around a tribe. Many of you are fantastic at pointing out our failings as a nation. We have them -- Buffalo, Texas, Parkdale etc are prima facia examples of some of our problems. But when you compare us to Europe or Asia, you conveniently forget that most of those nations are tribal in nature and subscribe to a common culture and a core set of beliefs about life. Try being Turkish in Germany! In America, even our core is being challenged by fringe elements on both the right and left.

2) We're not going to ban guns. Period. We're just not. The notion that because we went to the Moon, we can ban guns, eliminate high capacity magazines, provide universal mental health and be 100 percent successful at identifying every potential mass murderer is fallacious. We can do our best but our courts are not likely to change the wide-eyed interpretation of the Second Amendment or suddenly deny civil rights to folks that we think might be mass murderers.

3) Anybody who thinks the schools can be effective evaluators of mental health should be talking to me about buying a bridge between San Francisco and Marin County. There is a humungous lack of trust between most people who have had interaction with school therapists and school therapists/psychologists. Sorry gang, my children went to a diverse grade and middle school in the Northern Suburbs of Chicago and I'd argue the only thing stupider than a school therapist is the caterpillar crawling along the playground. They're marginally competent to maintain the social order of the school and regularly turn their backs on what's really happening in their schools. And you expect them to find mass murderers? The gay and lesbian community, for example, would be horrified at what we were told and how the school acted.

4) For the record, I don't own a gun and I think the gun culture in our country is absolutely outrageous. Probably the dumbest thing Florida ever did (and that's saying a lot) was enact Stand Your Ground and Concealed Carry.

5) If ya'll think I'm wrong, God love you. Go for it. That's the beauty of a democracy and a representative republic. Good luck!

[MuggsyB]

Look guys, I didn't just sit for a Public Policy Exam. I expressed my thoughts about crime and punishment.

So let's deal with reality in this country and come down from idealistic concepts that will never happen.

1) America is the most diverse society in the world. We're about the only country in the world not built around a tribe. Many of you are fantastic at pointing out our failings as a nation. We have them -- Buffalo, Texas, Parkdale etc are prima facia examples of some of our problems. But when you compare us to Europe or Asia, you conveniently forget that most of those nations are tribal in nature and subscribe to a common culture and a core set of beliefs about life. Try being Turkish in Germany! In America, even our core is being challenged by fringe elements on both the right and left.

2) We're not going to ban guns. Period. We're just not. The notion that because we went to the Moon, we can ban guns, eliminate high capacity magazines, provide universal mental health and be 100 percent successful at identifying every potential mass murderer is fallacious. We can do our best but our courts are not likely to change the wide-eyed interpretation of the Second Amendment or suddenly deny civil rights to folks that we think might be mass murderers.

3) Anybody who thinks the schools can be effective evaluators of mental health should be talking to me about buying a bridge between San Francisco and Marin County. There is a humungous lack of trust between most people who have had interaction with school therapists and school therapists/psychologists. Sorry gang, my children went to a diverse grade and middle school in the Northern Suburbs of Chicago and I'd argue the only thing stupider than a school therapist is the caterpillar crawling along the playground. They're marginally competent to maintain the social order of the school and regularly turn their backs on what's really happening in their schools. And you expect them to find mass murderers? The gay and lesbian community, for example, would be horrified at what we were told and how the school acted.

4) For the record, I don't own a gun and I think the gun culture in our country is absolutely outrageous. Probably the dumbest thing Florida ever did (and that's saying a lot) was enact Stand Your Ground and Concealed Carry.

5) If ya'll think I'm wrong, God love you. Go for it. That's the beauty of a democracy and a representative republic. Good luck!

I appreciate your thoughts brother dgies but I'm not sure we're "the most diverse society in the world."

[Lighthouse 84]

You're being (generously) misleading here, Lighthouse.
When I asked "who actually said these things" I was responding to these statements you made:

1. Because no Republican wants any reasonable gun control measures.
2. Because no republican has any feelings of sadness for the loss of human life, let alone children’s lives.
3. Because no Republican’s children ever get killed by a gun.

What Jockey wrote is nothing close to that.
So, again, who is saying these things?

In response to a school getting shot up and many people dying, Jockey states "Every republican should hang their head in shame tomorrow." I'm being misleading a lot less than you're being obtuse.

[Pakuni]

Look guys, I didn't just sit for a Public Policy Exam. I expressed my thoughts about crime and punishment.

So let's deal with reality in this country and come down from idealistic concepts that will never happen.

1) America is the most diverse society in the world. We're about the only country in the world not built around a tribe. Many of you are fantastic at pointing out our failings as a nation. We have them -- Buffalo, Texas, Parkdale etc are prima facia examples of some of our problems. But when you compare us to Europe or Asia, you conveniently forget that most of those nations are tribal in nature and subscribe to a common culture and a core set of beliefs about life. Try being Turkish in Germany! In America, even our core is being challenged by fringe elements on both the right and left.

2) We're not going to ban guns. Period. We're just not. The notion that because we went to the Moon, we can ban guns, eliminate high capacity magazines, provide universal mental health and be 100 percent successful at identifying every potential mass murderer is fallacious. We can do our best but our courts are not likely to change the wide-eyed interpretation of the Second Amendment or suddenly deny civil rights to folks that we think might be mass murderers.

3) Anybody who thinks the schools can be effective evaluators of mental health should be talking to me about buying a bridge between San Francisco and Marin County. There is a humungous lack of trust between most people who have had interaction with school therapists and school therapists/psychologists. Sorry gang, my children went to a diverse grade and middle school in the Northern Suburbs of Chicago and I'd argue the only thing stupider than a school therapist is the caterpillar crawling along the playground. They're marginally competent to maintain the social order of the school and regularly turn their backs on what's really happening in their schools. And you expect them to find mass murderers? The gay and lesbian community, for example, would be horrified at what we were told and how the school acted.

4) For the record, I don't own a gun and I think the gun culture in our country is absolutely outrageous. Probably the dumbest thing Florida ever did (and that's saying a lot) was enact Stand Your Ground and Concealed Carry.

5) If ya'll think I'm wrong, God love you. Go for it. That's the beauty of a democracy and a representative republic. Good luck!

1. We're nowhere close to being the most diverse country in the world. Unless, under your definition of diversity, all Africans are the same, all Asians are the same, all Latin Americans are the same, etc.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/07/18/the-most-and-least-culturally-diverse-countries-in-the-world/

2. Not a single person here has said they believe we will or should ban guns. This paragraph is built upon straw man after straw man, and the oft-repeated/completely useless argument that no effort is worth undertaking unless it's "100 percent successful." That attitude is getting kids killed.

3.Your personal experience involving one child at one school district, as terrible as it might have been. proves nothing in the bigger picture. People who's actually study this say schools can be quite effective at identifying students with mental health needs.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/feduc.2022.814157/full

[Pakuni]

In response to a school getting shot up and many people dying, Jockey states "Every republican should hang their head in shame tomorrow." I'm being misleading a lot less than you're being obtuse.

Nah. You just want to play victim and can't admit when you're wrong.

[MuggsyB]

Pakumi, I appreciate your thoughts as well.  When I look at the last 10 or so mass shootings Im trying to envision what laws that are being proposed would have actually prevented these from happening?
Maybe Im not seeing things as clearly as others but there are without question some (Las Vegas as an example) where literally the only way it could be prevented is a blanket gun ban. 

Certainly I agree with the arguments that we need better background checks and schools themselves should be more secure in general.  Obviously there's not going to be much agreement when it comes to having armed guards and fortress like buildings.  But I do think electronic type systems with doors would be helpful.

There's no question that the vast majority of states with more stringent gun laws have fewer gun related deaths.  I would imagine suicide is a huge stat among this and we seem to shrug our shoulders about it.  There are also a number of gun homicides in our major cities from illegal purchases.  When little kids are not safe in or near their homes or schools we need to look at what specific laws can be calibrated to stop these tragedies, nor simply echo political talking points. 

So, I'm asking you and others to specifically look at the horrific events from yesterday and the last decade or so and explain how specific laws that have been proposed would have prevented what happened in these cases?  I know there have been many red flags over the years including yesterday on social media or what have you..  But again. whether it be specifically how to background check, age requirements, security within schools, etc what would you say either has been suggested or needs to be done to thwart evil people committing mass murder?  Ty.

[dgies9156]

1. We're nowhere close to being the most diverse country in the world. Unless, under your definition of diversity, all Africans are the same, all Asians are the same, all Latin Americans are the same, etc.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/07/18/the-most-and-least-culturally-diverse-countries-in-the-world/

2. Not a single person here has said they believe we will or should ban guns. This paragraph is built upon straw man after straw man, and the oft-repeated/completely useless argument that no effort is worth undertaking unless it's "100 percent successful." That attitude is getting kids killed.

3.Your personal experience involving one child at one school district, as terrible as it might have been. proves nothing in the bigger picture. People who's actually study this say schools can be quite effective at identifying students with mental health needs.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/feduc.2022.814157/full

Brother Pakuni:

I'm not going to waste my time in a senseless debate about the "might be." As I said, if you and the other liberals on this board think you can get it done, then go do it! God bless you and may you be successful.

Quit talking and start doing!

But I do want to address my personal experience. Dude, it's a data point and I will promise you there are more data points like mine than the theoreticians on this board will ever imagine. If school psychologists are so damn good, where are they when it comes time to identify those mass murderers on the South or West Side of Chicago? If the world's most highly paid, over-indulged teachers and administrators can't find the mentally ill who carry guns everywhere they go, what makes you think they can be at the forefront of mental illness.

Look, we have as many people die on a warm summer weekend night in Chicago as they did at the school. But, no one wants to talk about that -- unless it is to blame Republicans for it.

Again, I'm all for doing whatever weapons control we can. But it's not going to happen.

[Uncle Rico]

We're failing as parents, mentors, and educators.  No amount of legislation will change this.  Change your culture and change your outcome.

I concur.  The gun culture in this country is a disgrace

[MuggsyB]

Brother Pakuni:

I'm not going to waste my time in a senseless debate about the "might be." As I said, if you and the other liberals on this board think you can get it done, then go do it! God bless you and may you be successful.

Quit talking and start doing!

But I do want to address my personal experience. Dude, it's a data point and I will promise you there are more data points like mine than the theoreticians on this board will ever imagine. If school psychologists are so damn good, where are they when it comes time to identify those mass murderers on the South or West Side of Chicago? If the world's most highly paid, over-indulged teachers and administrators can't find the mentally ill who carry guns everywhere they go, what makes you think they can be at the forefront of mental illness.

Look, we have as many people die on a warm summer weekend night in Chicago as they did at the school. But, no one wants to talk about that -- unless it is to blame Republicans for it.

Again, I'm all for doing whatever weapons control we can. But it's not going to happen.

Brother dgies I think this is an important point.  There should be far more passion and comprehensive discussions about Chicago violence and other major cities.  Little kids have gotten killed there just like in Texas yesterday.  The vast, vast, vast amount of gun related homicides are from handguns, not AR-15's.   It's a terrible situation.

[Lighthouse 84]

Nah. You just want to play victim and can't admit when you're wrong.

Ok hotshot.  Give me your best spin on what Jockey actually meant.  And  when you put down Jockey's water, maybe he can clarify why "Every republican should hang their head in shame tomorrow."  I'll wait.

[lawdog77]

Why don't we make everyone who wants a gun join a militia?
https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title10/subtitleA/part1/chapter12&edition=prelim#:~:text=(a)%20The%20militia%20of%20the,the%20United%20States%20who%20are

[Pakuni]

Pakumi, I appreciate your thoughts as well.  When I look at the last 10 or so mass shootings Im trying to envision what laws that are being proposed would have actually prevented these from happening?
Maybe Im not seeing things as clearly as others but there are without question some (Las Vegas as an example) where literally the only way it could be prevented is a blanket gun ban. 

1. Raise the gun purchase age to 21. It's insane that we as a society believe teenagers are too immature and capricious to make smart decisions about alcohol use - and even in some places tobacco use - and yet believe they can make smart decisions with guns.

2. Bar public ownership of military-style rifles like the AR-15. This may not have prevented the Texas, Parkland and Buffalo shootings entirely, but it would have made them less deadly.

3. A federal red flag law. The vast majority of mass shooters give off hints to multiple people of what's to come, and yet fewer than half of U.S. states have laws on the books through which people can report that behavior and, if justified, authorities could temporarily remove firearms as a precaution.

[Pakuni]

Ok hotshot.  Give me your best spin on what Jockey actually meant.  And  when you put down Jockey's water, maybe he can clarify why "Every republican should hang their head in shame tomorrow."  I'll wait.

Yawn.
Jockey's a big boy who can speak for himself.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Quit talking and start doing!

We have. We've voted for people who are attempting to pass legislation to create new regulations that will hopefully make a meaningful impact in reducing gun vioence, specifically violence in mass shootings. We've done our part. We need help from our conservative brothers and sisters who claim to want this to, to hold their politicians to task and vote them out if they are unwilling to enact the will of the American People.

But I do want to address my personal experience. Dude, it's a data point and I will promise you there are more data points like mine than the theoreticians on this board will ever imagine. If school psychologists are so damn good, where are they when it comes time to identify those mass murderers on the South or West Side of Chicago? If the world's most highly paid, over-indulged teachers and administrators can't find the mentally ill who carry guns everywhere they go, what makes you think they can be at the forefront of mental illness.

You are letting your own personal experience cloud your judgement. I work in education as does my sister and the majority of school counselors, psychologists, social workers, etc are wonderful people who get paid sh*t and work impossible case loads because they are passionate about helping students. I don't know where you are getting this myth of a rash of "highly paid, over-indulged teachers and administrators."

Again, I'm all for doing whatever weapons control we can. But it's not going to happen.

Then you are part of the problem.

[Lighthouse 84]

Yawn.
Jockey's a big boy who can speak for himself.

  Then you just took it upon yourself to speak for him all this time?  Got it.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

2) We're not going to ban guns. Period. We're just not. The notion that because we went to the Moon, we can ban guns, eliminate high capacity magazines, provide universal mental health and be 100 percent successful at identifying every potential mass murderer is fallacious. We can do our best but our courts are not likely to change the wide-eyed interpretation of the Second Amendment or suddenly deny civil rights to folks that we think might be mass murderers.

Only the fringiest of the fringy think banning guns would ever happen. But, there are dozens an dozens of other suggestions, many of which have been discussed in this forum, that taken together would very likely drastically reduce the number of gun homicides.

You yourself, after saying new laws wouldn't work, suggested about 4 new laws that you'd like to see. There are plenty more that would work to reduce the number of guns sold to people that shouldn't have them (domestic abusers, red flag laws, waiting periods, etc.), and plenty more that would require people to continue to prove that they were responsible gun owners (licensing requirements, proof of safe storage, training requirement, etc.).

I do agree, sadly, that with the current configuration of the SC, creating laws that they don't reflexively deem unconstitutional is a challenge.

A society that allows 18-year-olds to purchase military grade weapons but won't let them have a beer or buy a cigarette truly has its priorities unnatural carnal knowledgeed up.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Why don't we make everyone who wants a gun join a militia?
https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title10/subtitleA/part1/chapter12&edition=prelim#:~:text=(a)%20The%20militia%20of%20the,the%20United%20States%20who%20are

A Well-Regulated Militia, not one of those Michigan Militias.

[Pakuni]

Look, we have as many people die on a warm summer weekend night in Chicago as they did at the school. But, no one wants to talk about that -- unless it is to blame Republicans for it.

Yeah, dgies, no one talks about gun violence in Chicago.
Thought you were a more serious person than this.

[Pakuni]

  Then you just took it upon yourself to speak for him all this time?  Got it.

nm

[lawdog77]

A Well-Regulated Militia, not one of those Michigan Militias.

Yes. The militia under the U.S. Code.

[MU82]

  I get what you're saying, but let me first ask you something, because  you seem to be very philosophical. 

This is sort of like back in the day sitting in Dr. Beach's Phil class:

Is it possible to believe in most, but not all, policies of a group, and still remain a member of that group?  In other words, if one aligns with the majority of policies of one group or entity over those of another, is it possible to remain a member of the first group?  If the answer is yes, it seems that one should align him or herself with the group that most closely represents his or her beliefs, even though there's not 100% agreement on all policy.  If the answer is no, should the person choose to then be a member of no group?  Because it's not logical for one to then be a member of the group whose policies are less aligned, so it would only make sense to either (a) remain a member of the first group because it best represents the majority of one's own beliefs, or (2) be aligned with no group.

Maybe we should ask Nancy Pelosi?

Thanks for the conversation and I totally get what you are saying. jficke13 addressed this very idea with his eloquent post in this thread at 01:15:57 PM.

I certainly don't agree with 100% of what most politicians present. As jficke said, it's a matter of priorities. It's very easy for me to place an extremely high priority on keeping schoolkids alive. I'm willing to pay higher taxes to prioritize those kids' lives, I'm willing to give up a tiny tidbit of 2nd Amendment rights to do it, etc. I know that others prioritize the lives of the unborn when they vote; I don't get why one would want to force an 8-weeks-pregnant woman to keep a mass of cells inside her while not caring enough about 8 year olds to enact reasonable gun legislation that 70%-90% of Americans say they want, but that's me.

It's OK if you and others don't give such things as high priority, but then I do think you surrender a little of the high ground on this issue, if that matters to you.

Not sure what your last line was supposed to mean, though I'm pretty sure it didn't fit in with your otherwise thoughtful post.

[Merit Matters]

Yeah, dgies, no one talks about gun violence in Chicago.
Thought you were a more serious person than this.

If the ones doing the shooting were consistently white guys, the violence in Chicago and other cities would be national news 24/7.

[noblewarrior]

1. Raise the gun purchase age to 21. It's insane that we as a society believe teenagers are too immature and capricious to make smart decisions about alcohol use - and even in some places tobacco use - and yet believe they can make smart decisions with guns.... and voting age?  Military service? I don’t think this is a age issue.  There are platforms out there that want to reduce the voting age to 16... wth?

2. Bar public ownership of military-style rifles like the AR-15. This may not have prevented the Texas, Parkland and Buffalo shootings entirely, but it would have made them less deadly.  What? You mean just rifles in general, right?  The best hunting rifles these days are built on the AR platform and it’s also a platform that provides configurations that out preforms pretty much anything for home defense.  Tough sell. 

3. A federal red flag law. The vast majority of mass shooters give off hints to multiple people of what's to come, and yet fewer than half of U.S. states have laws on the books through which people can report that behavior and, if justified, authorities could temporarily remove firearms as a precaution.  There’s something to this but what’s been proposed has fell short.  High bar when removing a constitutional right.... and most sheriffs won’t enforce them. 

Let’s take additional gun restrictions off the table.  We’re playing defense.  What can we do to mitigate these types of incidents... the high homicide rates in large cities... how about suicides ( some would argue these are inevitable and would occur regardless of having access to a fire arm)?   I say more RomComs

Most discussions involving gun regulation start as non-starters...and don’t seek common ground.  Where’s the step forward? What I see here is more division, glib remarks, and heel stomping... no reasoning.  I picture most here having crazy eyes and I’m fairly certain that’s not the case. 

Do you ever take a break from this board, P... ? 

[Lighthouse 84]

Thanks for the conversation and I totally get what you are saying. jficke13 addressed this very idea with his eloquent post in this thread at 01:15:57 PM.

I certainly don't agree with 100% of what most politicians present. As jficke said, it's a matter of priorities. It's very easy for me to place an extremely high priority on keeping schoolkids alive. I'm willing to pay higher taxes to prioritize those kids' lives, I'm willing to give up a tiny tidbit of 2nd Amendment rights to do it, etc. I know that others prioritize the lives of the unborn when they vote; I don't get why one would want to force an 8-weeks-pregnant woman to keep a mass of cells inside her while not caring enough about 8 year olds to enact reasonable gun legislation that 70%-90% of Americans say they want, but that's me.

It's OK if you and others don't give such things as high priority, but then I do think you surrender a little of the high ground on this issue, if that matters to you.

Not sure what your last line was supposed to mean, though I'm pretty sure it didn't fit in with your otherwise thoughtful post.

Nancy Pelosi is doing the same thing, but with the Catholic Church.  She clearly doesn't agree 100% with all of the Church's policies, but it appears that she must feel the majority of the policies she does align with outweighs any that don't align with her beliefs. 

I also appreciate the conversation 82.  I Anytime I can conjure up an image of Dr. Beach sitting in class with his Wall Street Journal in hand, peering over the paper to ask a philosophical question, takes me back to a good place.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Is it possible to believe in most, but not all, policies of a group, and still remain a member of that group?  In other words, if one aligns with the majority of policies of one group or entity over those of another, is it possible to remain a member of the first group?  If the answer is yes, it seems that one should align him or herself with the group that most closely represents his or her beliefs, even though there's not 100% agreement on all policy.  If the answer is no, should the person choose to then be a member of no group?  Because it's not logical for one to then be a member of the group whose policies are less aligned, so it would only make sense to either (a) remain a member of the first group because it best represents the majority of one's own beliefs, or (2) be aligned with no group.

It is possible, but you have to understand that by aligning yourself with a group that supports a policy you don't agree with, you are sending the message that the negative impact of supporting that policy is less important to you than your support of other policies. Which is fine, but assuming you vote, you bear some small part of the responsibility for those negative impacts.