Buffalo shooting, take 2

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Let’s take additional gun restrictions off the table.  We’re playing defense.  What can we do to mitigate these types of incidents... the high homicide rates in large cities... how about suicides ( some would argue these are inevitable and would occur regardless of having access to a fire arm)?   I say more RomComs

Most discussions involving gun regulation start as non-starters...and don’t seek common ground.  Where’s the step forward? What I see here is more division, glib remarks, and heel stomping... no reasoning.  I picture most here having crazy eyes and I’m fairly certain that’s not the case. 

Do you ever take a break from this board, P... ?

He's a very successful person.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

If the ones doing the shooting were consistently white guys, the violence in Chicago and other cities would be national news 24/7.

It is national news every day.

[Mucubfan]

Thanks for the conversation and I totally get what you are saying. jficke13 addressed this very idea with his eloquent post in this thread at 01:15:57 PM.

I certainly don't agree with 100% of what most politicians present. As jficke said, it's a matter of priorities. It's very easy for me to place an extremely high priority on keeping schoolkids alive. I'm willing to pay higher taxes to prioritize those kids' lives, I'm willing to give up a tiny tidbit of 2nd Amendment rights to do it, etc. I know that others prioritize the lives of the unborn when they vote; I don't get why one would want to force an 8-weeks-pregnant woman to keep a mass of cells inside her while not caring enough about 8 year olds to enact reasonable gun legislation that 70%-90% of Americans say they want, but that's me.

It's OK if you and others don't give such things as high priority, but then I do think you surrender a little of the high ground on this issue, if that matters to you.

Not sure what your last line was supposed to mean, though I'm pretty sure it didn't fit in with your otherwise thoughtful post.

People (mostly wealthy people) love to make taxes their number one voting issue because they are self serving. I mean, lowering the top tax bracket 2% when you make 400k saves you enough for your next sports car over the course of a few years.
But yeah, they don’t like guns that much and would be willing to compromise. But not enough to vote for someone who might raise their taxes.

[MU82]

Nancy Pelosi is doing the same thing, but with the Catholic Church.  She clearly doesn't agree 100% with all of the Church's policies, but it appears that she must feel the majority of the policies she does align with outweighs any that don't align with her beliefs. 

I also appreciate the conversation 82.  I Anytime I can conjure up an image of Dr. Beach sitting in class with his Wall Street Journal in hand, peering over the paper to ask a philosophical question, takes me back to a good place.

Ah, got it.

Biden does the same with regards to his Catholic beliefs ... and so does almost every Marquette friend I have. The guy who was the best man at my wedding goes to church every Sunday and he most definitely considers himself to be a religious Catholic, yet he believes in a woman's right to control her own reproductive system, believes priests should be able to have love lives and marriage, believes 100% in a person's right to use contraception, etc. And he's hardly unique among the men and women with whom I still associate from my Marquette days -- a few are pretty staunchly anti-abortion, but I don't know anyone who is against contraception. My very best MU friend, a lifelong Republican, voted for Trump in 2016 because he hates the Clintons, so that was the priority he established at the time; he was horrified by what he saw over the ensuing 4 years and voted for Biden in 2020 even though he disagrees with Biden on a lot of things.

Each of us has to prioritize what's important for himself or herself.

Stay well, L84.

[Uncle Rico]

It is national news every day.

And he actually could care less about what’s happening in Chicago but it’s a neat distraction

[Spotcheck Billy]

So remote learning wasn't all that bad then?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Most discussions involving gun regulation start as non-starters...and don’t seek common ground.  Where’s the step forward? What I see here is more division, glib remarks, and heel stomping... no reasoning.  I picture most here having crazy eyes and I’m fairly certain that’s not the case. 

There is far more agreement and common ground than you may think:



https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/most-americans-support-stricter-gun-laws-new-poll-says

[Mucubfan]

There is far more agreement and common ground than you may think:



https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/most-americans-support-stricter-gun-laws-new-poll-says

I know. I live in a wealthy Chicago suburb (Barrington), most of the people I interact with daily do not believe in assault weapon ownership and most are republican. They are all also mostly single issue voters (taxes). They also all probably make mid size figures or more.

Talk is cheap, deprioritizing taxes when one is already wealthy is apparently hard.

[Skatastrophy]

I know. I live in a wealthy Chicago suburb (Barrington), most of the people I interact with daily do not believe in assault weapon ownership and most are republican. They are all also mostly single issue voters (taxes). They also all probably make mid size figures or more.

Talk is cheap, deprioritizing taxes when one is already wealthy is apparently hard.

If you want to melt their brain, tell them that a comparable priced home in the city will cost them 33% less taxes and come with a ton more amenities.

[real chili 83]

ND sucks

[noblewarrior]

There is far more agreement and common ground than you may think:



https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/most-americans-support-stricter-gun-laws-new-poll-says

1317 people polled (Most Americans?) by NPR/PBS?  I’m sure that’s not a bias result... 🤔

[Mucubfan]

1317 poll by NPR/PBS?  I’m sure that’s not a bias result... 🤔

PBS is biased? Ok

It’s not like it’s a MSNBC poll. But, whatever. You do you.

[jficke13]

1317 people polled (Most Americans?) by NPR/PBS?  I’m sure that’s not a bias result... 🤔

Bringing me back to analyzing sample size for predictive effect in my polysci class taught by Dr. McAdams.

1317 is probably sufficient to have a decent predictive power. Most opinion polls aren't going to be much higher than that. The sampling methodology is where you'll find bias, not in the respondent count when you're in this range.

More to the point though, what is it about the responses in this poll that made you reflexively doubt its validity?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I know. I live in a wealthy Chicago suburb (Barrington), most of the people I interact with daily do not believe in assault weapon ownership and most are republican. They are all also mostly single issue voters (taxes). They also all probably make mid size figures or more.

Talk is cheap, deprioritizing taxes when one is already wealthy is apparently hard.

I am pretty familiar with Barrington and your description is spot on.

[dgies9156]

Yeah, dgies, no one talks about gun violence in Chicago.
Thought you were a more serious person than this.

C'mon Brother Pakuni, you're smarter than that.

Sure the Lovely Allison News exploits it for viewership every night they can, with the Lovely Natalie practically standing in a pool of blood decrying the violence.

When was the last time you saw the President of the United States get up in a press conference, speech or informal comment and decry the violence on the streets of Chicago? When did you last hear a President scream that we have to do something about it? Or when did Dick Durbin cry on the floor of the United States Senate?

They don't. Durbin runs from the Chicago violence issue so fast you'd think he was doing a four minute mile!

The President who spoke about the violence on the streets of Chicago was the last one -- the Orange Terror. He wanted to send in the Army or the National Guard to enforce the law. To restore order.  To make children safe -- or at least safer. To take a leadership role that the Mayor of Chicago and the Governor of Illinois won't because it is not politically expedient.

For that, he was called a racist.

P.S. -- Before you go off on me, I'm no fan of the last President!

[TSmith34, Inc.]

1317 people polled (Most Americans?) by NPR/PBS?  I’m sure that’s not a bias result... 🤔

How about Forbes and Politico? Are Forbes and Politico too biased?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2022/05/25/most-voters-want-congress-to-pass-stricter-gun-laws-poll-finds/?sh=1be5d17b1564

How about CBS News? Too biased?
https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/3501380-more-than-half-of-americans-want-stricter-gun-laws-poll/

Here's a Morning Consult one from last year. Too biased? Quinnipiac, too. Too biased?:
https://www.newsweek.com/77-gop-voters-support-background-checks-gun-buyers-dems-push-forward-bill-1575449
"Overall, 84 percent of voters support universal background checks, while just 11 percent oppose the policy. An additional 5 percent of respondents said they did not have an opinion or don't know.

Furthermore, 77 percent of Republicans and 82 percent of independent voters approve of universal background checks, as do 91 percent of Democrats.

A 2019 poll conducted by Quinnipiac University showed even greater support for universal background checks. In that survey, 94 percent of respondents said all gun buyers should be subject to background checks, while just 4 percent said they were opposed. A July 2019 poll conducted by NPR/PBS/Marist showed a similar result, with 89 percent of voters approving of universal background checks. That included 84 percent of Republicans."

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Nancy Pelosi is doing the same thing, but with the Catholic Church.  She clearly doesn't agree 100% with all of the Church's policies, but it appears that she must feel the majority of the policies she does align with outweighs any that don't align with her beliefs. 

I also appreciate the conversation 82.  I Anytime I can conjure up an image of Dr. Beach sitting in class with his Wall Street Journal in hand, peering over the paper to ask a philosophical question, takes me back to a good place.

MU82 covered it very well at 2:52pm as pretty much all Catholics I know feel the same.
The very few I know who don't share are all well past retirement age.  FWIW

As Papa Francesco said, "Who am I to judge?" 

[Pakuni]

When was the last time you saw the President of the United States get up in a press conference, speech or informal comment and decry the violence on the streets of Chicago? 

July 9, 2021
President Joe Biden has offered to send a "strike force" to Chicago to crack down on gun trafficking.
President Biden spoke with Mayor Lori Lightfoot on the tarmac at O'Hare Airport on Wednesday.
https://abc7chicago.com/chicago-shootings-joe-biden-mayor-lori-lightfoot-president/10873737/

July 13, 2021

Chicago police Superintendent David Brown said he had a “significant and substantive” discussion with President Joe Biden on Monday in Washington, D.C., about strategies to reduce surging violent crime.
Brown said he and other law enforcement officials who met with the president and Attorney General Merrick Garland had a “shared vision” over a sense of urgency to address these issues and the need for “real consequences for serious crimes.”
“We discussed both short-term and long-term solutions,” he said Tuesday during a news conference in Chicago. “There will be significant follow-up. This wasn’t a one-off meeting.”
https://news.wttw.com/2021/07/13/chicagos-top-cop-touts-significant-and-substantive-meeting-biden-violence-prevention

Or when did Dick Durbin cry on the floor of the United States Senate? They don't. Durbin runs from the Chicago violence issue so fast you'd think he was doing a four minute mile!

Dec. 23, 2021

U.S. Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin (D-IL), Chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, today delivered an opening statement at the Senate Judiciary Committee field hearing entitled “Combating Gun Trafficking and Reducing Violence in Chicago.”  In his opening statement, Durbin highlighted the efforts of key federal agencies to combat gun trafficking, pursue evidence-informed violence prevention strategies, and coordinate with other government and community stakeholders to make our communities safer.  Violence fueled by illicit gun trafficking continues to take a devastating toll on Chicago, with Axios reporting that 2021 is shaping up to be one of the worst years for deadly violence in the city’s history.

https://www.durbin.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/durbin-delivers-opening-statement-in-senate-judiciary-committee-chicago-field-hearing-on-reducing-gun-trafficking-and-violence

[Mucubfan]

C'mon Brother Pakuni, you're smarter than that.

Sure the Lovely Allison News exploits it for viewership every night they can, with the Lovely Natalie practically standing in a pool of blood decrying the violence.

When was the last time you saw the President of the United States get up in a press conference, speech or informal comment and decry the violence on the streets of Chicago? When did you last hear a President scream that we have to do something about it? Or when did Dick Durbin cry on the floor of the United States Senate?

They don't. Durbin runs from the Chicago violence issue so fast you'd think he was doing a four minute mile!

The President who spoke about the violence on the streets of Chicago was the last one -- the Orange Terror. He wanted to send in the Army or the National Guard to enforce the law. To restore order.  To make children safe -- or at least safer. To take a leadership role that the Mayor of Chicago and the Governor of Illinois won't because it is not politically expedient.

For that, he was called a racist.

P.S. -- Before you go off on me, I'm no fan of the last President!

You mean The guy who wanted to shoot peaceful protesters so he could grab a photo op with a Bible outside a church he’s never been in?

Definitely the guy who I want firming public policy on the domestic use of force by our military.

He was called a racist mostly for being blatantly racist.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

How about Forbes and Politico? Are Forbes and Politico too biased?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2022/05/25/most-voters-want-congress-to-pass-stricter-gun-laws-poll-finds/?sh=1be5d17b1564

How about CBS News? Too biased?
https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/3501380-more-than-half-of-americans-want-stricter-gun-laws-poll/

Here's a Morning Consult one from last year. Too biased? Quinnipiac, too. Too biased?:
https://www.newsweek.com/77-gop-voters-support-background-checks-gun-buyers-dems-push-forward-bill-1575449
"Overall, 84 percent of voters support universal background checks, while just 11 percent oppose the policy. An additional 5 percent of respondents said they did not have an opinion or don't know.

Furthermore, 77 percent of Republicans and 82 percent of independent voters approve of universal background checks, as do 91 percent of Democrats.

A 2019 poll conducted by Quinnipiac University showed even greater support for universal background checks. In that survey, 94 percent of respondents said all gun buyers should be subject to background checks, while just 4 percent said they were opposed. A July 2019 poll conducted by NPR/PBS/Marist showed a similar result, with 89 percent of voters approving of universal background checks. That included 84 percent of Republicans."

I have a friend who changed his mind after Sandy Hook.  He's an Air Force veteran and has some semi-automatic gun that he bought in Virginia but was pretty sure was illegal in Connecticut.
He said since then he's for stricter laws and willing to jump through hoops for gun ownership because the people who are willing to do such are the ones who you can count on being responsible with guns. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

July 9, 2021
President Joe Biden has offered to send a "strike force" to Chicago to crack down on gun trafficking.
President Biden spoke with Mayor Lori Lightfoot on the tarmac at O'Hare Airport on Wednesday.
https://abc7chicago.com/chicago-shootings-joe-biden-mayor-lori-lightfoot-president/10873737/

July 13, 2021

Chicago police Superintendent David Brown said he had a “significant and substantive” discussion with President Joe Biden on Monday in Washington, D.C., about strategies to reduce surging violent crime.
Brown said he and other law enforcement officials who met with the president and Attorney General Merrick Garland had a “shared vision” over a sense of urgency to address these issues and the need for “real consequences for serious crimes.”
“We discussed both short-term and long-term solutions,” he said Tuesday during a news conference in Chicago. “There will be significant follow-up. This wasn’t a one-off meeting.”
https://news.wttw.com/2021/07/13/chicagos-top-cop-touts-significant-and-substantive-meeting-biden-violence-prevention

Dec. 23, 2021

U.S. Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin (D-IL), Chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, today delivered an opening statement at the Senate Judiciary Committee field hearing entitled “Combating Gun Trafficking and Reducing Violence in Chicago.”  In his opening statement, Durbin highlighted the efforts of key federal agencies to combat gun trafficking, pursue evidence-informed violence prevention strategies, and coordinate with other government and community stakeholders to make our communities safer.  Violence fueled by illicit gun trafficking continues to take a devastating toll on Chicago, with Axios reporting that 2021 is shaping up to be one of the worst years for deadly violence in the city’s history.

https://www.durbin.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/durbin-delivers-opening-statement-in-senate-judiciary-committee-chicago-field-hearing-on-reducing-gun-trafficking-and-violence

You would think that dgies could do a simple Google search...

Not to mention the whole post is "whataboutism" at its worst.  That if you can't speak out about everything, you shouldn't speak out against anything.

[dgies9156]

July 9, 2021
President Joe Biden has offered to send a "strike force" to Chicago to crack down on gun trafficking.
President Biden spoke with Mayor Lori Lightfoot on the tarmac at O'Hare Airport on Wednesday.
https://abc7chicago.com/chicago-shootings-joe-biden-mayor-lori-lightfoot-president/10873737/

July 13, 2021

Chicago police Superintendent David Brown said he had a “significant and substantive” discussion with President Joe Biden on Monday in Washington, D.C., about strategies to reduce surging violent crime.
Brown said he and other law enforcement officials who met with the president and Attorney General Merrick Garland had a “shared vision” over a sense of urgency to address these issues and the need for “real consequences for serious crimes.”
“We discussed both short-term and long-term solutions,” he said Tuesday during a news conference in Chicago. “There will be significant follow-up. This wasn’t a one-off meeting.”
https://news.wttw.com/2021/07/13/chicagos-top-cop-touts-significant-and-substantive-meeting-biden-violence-prevention

Dec. 23, 2021

U.S. Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin (D-IL), Chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, today delivered an opening statement at the Senate Judiciary Committee field hearing entitled “Combating Gun Trafficking and Reducing Violence in Chicago.”  In his opening statement, Durbin highlighted the efforts of key federal agencies to combat gun trafficking, pursue evidence-informed violence prevention strategies, and coordinate with other government and community stakeholders to make our communities safer.  Violence fueled by illicit gun trafficking continues to take a devastating toll on Chicago, with Axios reporting that 2021 is shaping up to be one of the worst years for deadly violence in the city’s history.

https://www.durbin.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/durbin-delivers-opening-statement-in-senate-judiciary-committee-chicago-field-hearing-on-reducing-gun-trafficking-and-violence

How's all that working for you?

Have you seen that "strike force" on the Streets of Chicago? Does he mean Chicago White Sox pitchers? Uhh, the way the White Sox are playing -- he'd have to call it a "ball force..."

"Significant and substantive" are what Professor John Vivian, formerly of Marquette's College of Journalism, would call "abstract nouns."  Ditto for "shared vision", "Sense of urgency" and "real consequences."

Gosh these people know how to speak Bureaucratese. And you wonder why our federal government is so hamstrung?

In plain English, it's a load of crap. They all said nothing. Durbin at least told us the Administrators were thinking like bureaucrats.
 

[TSmith34, Inc.]

How's all that working for you?

Have you seen that "strike force" on the Streets of Chicago? Does he mean Chicago White Sox pitchers? Uhh, the way the White Sox are playing -- he'd have to call it a "ball force..."

"Significant and substantive" are what Professor John Vivian, formerly of Marquette's College of Journalism, would call "abstract nouns."  Ditto for "shared vision", "Sense of urgency" and "real consequences."

Gosh these people know how to speak Bureaucratese. And you wonder why our federal government is so hamstrung?

In plain English, it's a load of crap. They all said nothing. Durbin at least told us the Administrators were thinking like bureaucrats.

You asked: "When was the last time you saw the President of the United States get up in a press conference, speech or informal comment and decry the violence on the streets of Chicago?"

When given an answer you don't like you massively shift the goal posts?

[Pakuni]

How's all that working for you?

Have you seen that "strike force" on the Streets of Chicago? Does he mean Chicago White Sox pitchers? Uhh, the way the White Sox are playing -- he'd have to call it a "ball force..."

"Significant and substantive" are what Professor John Vivian, formerly of Marquette's College of Journalism, would call "abstract nouns."  Ditto for "shared vision", "Sense of urgency" and "real consequences."

Gosh these people know how to speak Bureaucratese. And you wonder why our federal government is so hamstrung?

In plain English, it's a load of crap. They all said nothing. Durbin at least told us the Administrators were thinking like bureaucrats.

You'd have done yourself a favor by simply stating "Oh, I hadn't seen those." It's OK to miss things once in a while. But now you just look silly first claiming that Biden and Durbin never discuss Chicago violence, then refusing to acknowledge when they do.
As for how it's working, I don't know. I do know that homicides and shootings are down in Chicago this year. No idea how much of that, if any, is attributable to any specific law enforcement initiative.

[Mucubfan]

How's all that working for you?

Have you seen that "strike force" on the Streets of Chicago? Does he mean Chicago White Sox pitchers? Uhh, the way the White Sox are playing -- he'd have to call it a "ball force..."

"Significant and substantive" are what Professor John Vivian, formerly of Marquette's College of Journalism, would call "abstract nouns."  Ditto for "shared vision", "Sense of urgency" and "real consequences."

Gosh these people know how to speak Bureaucratese. And you wonder why our federal government is so hamstrung?

In plain English, it's a load of crap. They all said nothing. Durbin at least told us the Administrators were thinking like bureaucrats.

Help me understand your argument:
Is it:
1. Since gang violence is bad in Chicago and democrats haven’t fixed it we should not take logical steps to curb the use of AR-15s on children?
2. Democrats are all lip service so you are justified in voting for republicans who just choose to ignore AR-15s being used on children
3. The federal government is poorly run just like city government so we should all give up and not do anything about AR-15s killing 2nd-4th graders
4. It’s all Bidens fault.

Just help me out here.