Buffalo shooting, take 2

[Pakuni]

Per year?   So far this year?  This is poorly worded and really needs a citation.

An estimated 3,668 Ukrainian civilians have been killed since the war began.
7,185 Americans were killed with guns (not including suicides) last year.

https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casualties/

[MU82]

82

Every time there is a mass shooting it makes me sick to my stomach. I do not disagree with your post, possibly over why you think a demented person is still able to purchase a weapon, but not that he/she should not be allowed to purchase a slingshot, let alone a gun.

Glad we could agree on this very simple, but incredibly important, topic.

Just because political operatives are the ones spouting racist theories does seem like it would be political to decry their actions.

It's like if I criticized Bo Ryan for murdering someone in the AutoZone parking lot. Just because I have a bias against the Badgers doesn't mean that bias is the reason I'm against murder. I'm against racism regardless of the political stripe, and when politicians or talk show pundits are blatantly spreading racist conspiracy theories, it isn't politics that leads to me being against them.

Yessir.

We have a serious gun problem in this country. We have a serious problem with racism in this country. We have a serious problem with white supremacists and other domestic terrorists. We have a serious problem with seemingly smart people (and obviously stupid people, too) getting duped into believing debunked conspiracy theories. And we also have a serious problem with false equivalence (not saying you).

From the Anti-Defamation League:

[brewcity77]

And we also have a serious problem with false equivalence (not saying you).

No worries at all...obviously we all know how serious the AutoZone situation was.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

What is the whole story about this Autozone thing? I have seen several references since Bo retired but never anything specific.

Bo Ryan killed a hooker and dumped her body at the Auto Zone on E Wash across the street from Visions.

[Uncle Rico]

Bo Ryan killed a hooker and dumped her body at the Auto Zone on E Wash across the street from Visions.

If there is one thing all Scoopers agree to, Bo Ryan is a hooker killer

[forgetful]

Per year?   So far this year?  This is poorly worded and really needs a citation.

My apologies. You are right it was both very poorly worded, and needed a citation.

Thank you to Pakuni for providing some of that.

What I was referencing were gun violence deaths per year in the US. In 2020, there were 45,222 death from gun related injuries (link below). Of those, 19,384 were murders. The rest were almost all suicides.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/

Current counts of civilian deaths in Ukraine are 3381 (but likely too thousands too low). Even by high estimates though, we have more civilian deaths per year in the US due to gun violence than have died in Ukraine so far.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-briefing-notes/2022/05/plight-civilians-ukraine

That is not to discount the tragic situation in Ukraine, rather to highlight how we just accept an insane level of tragedy in the US every year.

[tower912]

All good, forgetful.   Can't make it easy to dismiss by not citing things when you are going to make bold proclamations.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

4ever said in the Texas shooting topic:

"Just because I'm right leaning doesn't mean I buy the entire platform. I don't own a gun and frankly, probably never will. I will submit to you that, even with air tight gun laws, those with evil intentions will still find a way to obtain them."

Then why do we have laws about anything?  Laws don't prevent bad stuff from ever happening.  But they can make it harder for that stuff to happen and also make a societal statement about what is appropriate conduct in a responsible society.

I absolutely know that putting limitations on gun purchases isn't going to stop shootings.  I also understand that the Constitution allows people to possess firearms.  But I also believe that right isn't absolute.  This is a perfect example of how reasonable gun legislation could have saved lives.  He was someone with a clear mental health problem.  He went out and purchased two weapons on his 18th birthday and less than a week later killed with them.

What about a background check that would include school records?  What about a waiting period?  What about limiting the types of guns that are available? 

Could he have gotten a gun "outside the system" anyway?  Sure.  Then punish the seller. 

But we aren't doing ANYTHING!!  Absolutely nothing to attempt to fix the problem.  Hell, maybe some of these are dumb and prove to be ineffective over time.  But at least give it a try.  But we don't even do that.

It's sad and it's immoral. 

[withoutbias]

Skilled shooters could get off 3 shots in a minute when the Second Amendment was written.  I (never having touched a gun before in my life) could get that off in under a second now.  And I'd have no problem getting the gun to do so within hours of me deciding I wanted it.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Seatbelts don't prevent 100% of deaths during car accidents, therefore we shouldn't wear seatbelts.

Limits on BAC don't stop 100% of durnk drivers, therefore we shouldn't have DUI laws.

Age limits on smoking don't stop 100% of people from smoking underage, therefore we shouldn't have age limits for smoking.

I've never heard a reasonable counterargument to this. I believe that people who make these arguments know that they are logically and morally in the wrong. Unfortunately, they can't admit it because to admit it means that they have to do something about it. And doing something about it means voting against their party and today, that's a line that too many are just unwilling to cross.

[Pakuni]

Seatbelts don't prevent 100% of deaths during car accidents, therefore we shouldn't wear seatbelts.

Limits on BAC don't stop 100% of durnk drivers, therefore we shouldn't have DUI laws.

Age limits on smoking don't stop 100% of people from smoking underage, therefore we shouldn't have age limits for smoking.

I've never heard a reasonable counterargument to this. I believe that people who make these arguments know that they are logically and morally in the wrong. Unfortunately, they can't admit it because to admit it means that they have to do something about it. And doing something about it means voting against their party and today, that's a line that too many are just unwilling to cross.

Right.
Same goes for the argument that "if someone really wants to do something evil, they'll find a way."
This is likely true, but wouldn't we rather have that person intent on evil armed with a 10-shot pistol or a knife or a hunting rifle than with an AR-15 that can shoot 45 rounds per minute?
We're not going to save every life, but we can save some.

[Uncle Rico]

Seatbelts don't prevent 100% of deaths during car accidents, therefore we shouldn't wear seatbelts.

Limits on BAC don't stop 100% of durnk drivers, therefore we shouldn't have DUI laws.

Age limits on smoking don't stop 100% of people from smoking underage, therefore we shouldn't have age limits for smoking.

I've never heard a reasonable counterargument to this. I believe that people who make these arguments know that they are logically and morally in the wrong. Unfortunately, they can't admit it because to admit it means that they have to do something about it. And doing something about it means voting against their party and today, that's a line that too many are just unwilling to cross.

The only way to stop drunk drivers is more drunk drivers

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Seatbelts don't prevent 100% of deaths during car accidents, therefore we shouldn't wear seatbelts.

Limits on BAC don't stop 100% of durnk drivers, therefore we shouldn't have DUI laws.

Age limits on smoking don't stop 100% of people from smoking underage, therefore we shouldn't have age limits for smoking.

I've never heard a reasonable counterargument to this. I believe that people who make these arguments know that they are logically and morally in the wrong. Unfortunately, they can't admit it because to admit it means that they have to do something about it. And doing something about it means voting against their party and today, that's a line that too many are just unwilling to cross.

It's that ziggy "logic" that states we shouldn't have laws because criminals don't care about laws. It goes hand-in-hand with 4ever's stupidity that we have a "soft on crime" problem when we have the highest incarceration rate in the world. But both of these lies fit what they want to hear, so they never think to wonder if they make any sense or are even true.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Skilled shooters could get off 3 shots in a minute when the Second Amendment was written.  I (never having touched a gun before in my life) could get that off in under a second now.  And I'd have no problem getting the gun to do so within hours of me deciding I wanted it.

Yeah, under the Original Intent bullcrap the radical Supreme Court Justices trot out when it is convenient, shouldn't ammunition be limited to musket balls?

[MU82]

Skilled shooters could get off 3 shots in a minute when the Second Amendment was written.  I (never having touched a gun before in my life) could get that off in under a second now.  And I'd have no problem getting the gun to do so within hours of me deciding I wanted it.

Yep. The folks who want government to get inside a woman's womb because "abortion isn't in the Constitution" have no problem with the fact that guns that can kill hundreds of people in a minute also aren't in the Constitution.

Though I guess it's possible that the damn lamestream media failed to correctly report that those Texas kids were killed by musket fire.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Age limits on smoking don't stop 100% of people from smoking underage, therefore we shouldn't have age limits for smoking.

And while not an apples to apples comparison, smoking regulations are great example of how regulation can completely change the culture on a topic and lead to meaningful change over time. Cigarettes have never been banned in this country, we just put some common sense regulations into place to limit their proliferation and improve public health. Over the past few decades we have seen smoking go from an activity that many or even most people partook in to something that only a minority engage in (CDC says about 12% of adults smoked in 2021). You can still be a chain smoker if you want to be, you can still smoke the occasional cigarette if you just want to dabble, and yes, some people still get health complications from smoking, but regulations have been massively successful in limiting the negative impacts of smoking. My guess is that in a few more decades, cigarettes will no longer be a meaningful concern.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

And while not an apples to apples comparison, smoking regulations are great example of how regulation can completely change the culture on a topic and lead to meaningful change over time. Cigarettes have never been banned in this country, we just put some common sense regulations into place to limit their proliferation and improve public health. Over the past few decades we have seen smoking go from an activity that many or even most people partook in to something that only a minority engage in (CDC says about 12% of adults smoked in 2021). You can still be a chain smoker if you want to be, you can still smoke the occasional cigarette if you just want to dabble, and yes, some people still get health complications from smoking, but regulations have been massively successful in limiting the negative impacts of smoking. My guess is that in a few more decades, cigarettes will no longer be a meaningful concern.

Yes.  And I am old enough to remember the "what can you do?" questions being asked about cigarettes at the time.  And the seemingly unbreakable influence of the tobacco companies.  Change can be made with courage.

[muwarrior69]

And while not an apples to apples comparison, smoking regulations are great example of how regulation can completely change the culture on a topic and lead to meaningful change over time. Cigarettes have never been banned in this country, we just put some common sense regulations into place to limit their proliferation and improve public health. Over the past few decades we have seen smoking go from an activity that many or even most people partook in to something that only a minority engage in (CDC says about 12% of adults smoked in 2021). You can still be a chain smoker if you want to be, you can still smoke the occasional cigarette if you just want to dabble, and yes, some people still get health complications from smoking, but regulations have been massively successful in limiting the negative impacts of smoking. My guess is that in a few more decades, cigarettes will no longer be a meaningful concern.

Hmm...just replaced tobacco with weed, which is still illegal in some places.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/284135/percentage-americans-smoke-marijuana.aspx

[JWags85]

Hmm...just replaced tobacco with weed, which is still illegal in some places.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/284135/percentage-americans-smoke-marijuana.aspx

A 2019 poll about something that was not legal in most states at the time is not a great barometer IMO

[Hards Alumni]

Hmm...just replaced tobacco with weed, which is still illegal in some places.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/284135/percentage-americans-smoke-marijuana.aspx

I'd have chosen vaping.

[dgies9156]

Ok gang, don't want to be contrarian, but do you really think more laws are going to do the trick?

I don't.

If they did, I'd stand up here and scream louder for laws and regulation than even our President. I'm sick and tired of waking up and asking who killed whom today. It's absurd and a very poor reflection on our culture and our society. It's not who we are!

The sad part is the real problem is mental health and detecting problems before they become problems. That falls largely to the parent and to friends. It falls largely to society at large to say something and to provide real mental health solutions. The latter is something we haven't done in a long time.

Having worked with school administrators and psychologists in my parental life, I find most are institutionally focused and care as much about the individuals as I do about wave height in the Central Indian Ocean. There is an inherent distrust between parents, students and school psychologists/therapists because few are focused on anything other than orderly behavior in school and preservation of existing social order.

I'm not sure there is an answer to this one. Yeah, try to ban guns. If one wants a gun in this country, one can find anything. High volume magazines and semi-automatics? As long as we have an Army, they'll be out there. My thought would be to get tough on gun crimes, beginning with owning illegal weapons and going all the way up to murder. Automatic prison sentences for anyone caught with an unregistered firearm and anyone who uses a gun in the commission of a crime goes to prison for a long time with no parole. Regardless of race, religion, national origin etc.

My idea ain't going to happen. Period. This country will never do that.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Ok gang, don't want to be contrarian, but do you really think more laws are going to do the trick?

I don't.

If they did, I'd stand up here and scream louder for laws and regulation than even our President. I'm sick and tired of waking up and asking who killed whom today. It's absurd and a very poor reflection on our culture and our society. It's not who we are!

The sad part is the real problem is mental health and detecting problems before they become problems. That falls largely to the parent and to friends. It falls largely to society at large to say something and to provide real mental health solutions. The latter is something we haven't done in a long time.

Having worked with school administrators and psychologists in my parental life, I find most are institutionally focused and care as much about the individuals as I do about wave height in the Central Indian Ocean. There is an inherent distrust between parents, students and school psychologists/therapists because few are focused on anything other than orderly behavior in school and preservation of existing social order.

I'm not sure there is an answer to this one. Yeah, try to ban guns. If one wants a gun in this country, one can find anything. High volume magazines and semi-automatics? As long as we have an Army, they'll be out there. My thought would be to get tough on gun crimes, beginning with owning illegal weapons and going all the way up to murder. Automatic prison sentences for anyone caught with an unregistered firearm and anyone who uses a gun in the commission of a crime goes to prison for a long time with no parole. Regardless of race, religion, national origin etc.

My idea ain't going to happen. Period. This country will never do that.

Careful, 🐷🐷 will question your logic.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Hmm...just replaced tobacco with weed, which is still illegal in some places.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/284135/percentage-americans-smoke-marijuana.aspx

So? Cigarettes are a completely different entity with much worse public health risks than marijuana.

Vaping as hards suggested is a better one to bring up. Even including vaping, smoking numbers are still way down from what they were and efforts are still being made to properly regulate vaping.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Ok gang, don't want to be contrarian, but do you really think more laws are going to do the trick?

I don't.

If they did, I'd stand up here and scream louder for laws and regulation than even our President. I'm sick and tired of waking up and asking who killed whom today. It's absurd and a very poor reflection on our culture and our society. It's not who we are!

The sad part is the real problem is mental health and detecting problems before they become problems. That falls largely to the parent and to friends. It falls largely to society at large to say something and to provide real mental health solutions. The latter is something we haven't done in a long time.

Having worked with school administrators and psychologists in my parental life, I find most are institutionally focused and care as much about the individuals as I do about wave height in the Central Indian Ocean. There is an inherent distrust between parents, students and school psychologists/therapists because few are focused on anything other than orderly behavior in school and preservation of existing social order.

I'm not sure there is an answer to this one. Yeah, try to ban guns. If one wants a gun in this country, one can find anything. High volume magazines and semi-automatics? As long as we have an Army, they'll be out there. My thought would be to get tough on gun crimes, beginning with owning illegal weapons and going all the way up to murder. Automatic prison sentences for anyone caught with an unregistered firearm and anyone who uses a gun in the commission of a crime goes to prison for a long time with no parole. Regardless of race, religion, national origin etc.

My idea ain't going to happen. Period. This country will never do that.

Seatbelts don't prevent 100% of deaths during car accidents, therefore we shouldn't wear seatbelts.

Limits on BAC don't stop 100% of durnk drivers, therefore we shouldn't have DUI laws.

Age limits on smoking don't stop 100% of people from smoking underage, therefore we shouldn't have age limits for smoking.

America is the only country in the world with mental health problems so that must be the real reason we lead the world in mass shootings.

You're better than this Dgies.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Ok gang, don't want to be contrarian, but do you really think more laws are going to do the trick?

I don't.

If they did, I'd stand up here and scream louder for laws and regulation than even our President. I'm sick and tired of waking up and asking who killed whom today. It's absurd and a very poor reflection on our culture and our society. It's not who we are!

The sad part is the real problem is mental health and detecting problems before they become problems. That falls largely to the parent and to friends. It falls largely to society at large to say something and to provide real mental health solutions. The latter is something we haven't done in a long time.

How is it no other country's mental health problems lead to multiple mass shootings most everyday?

You also say:

Ok gang, don't want to be contrarian, but do you really think more laws are going to do the trick?

I don't.

and this:

My thought would be to get tough on gun crimes, beginning with owning illegal weapons and going all the way up to murder. Automatic prison sentences for anyone caught with an unregistered firearm and anyone who uses a gun in the commission of a crime goes to prison for a long time with no parole. Regardless of race, religion, national origin etc.

My idea ain't going to happen. Period. This country will never do that.

Aren't those more laws that you say wouldn't do the trick?