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Author Topic: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB  (Read 24704 times)

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #125 on: May 11, 2022, 05:16:55 PM »

he biggest names in college basketball draw the biggest eyeballs in viewership.  Again, people like the idea of cindarellas more than they like watching them.  I think they would do just fine numbers wise.

Most certainly the viewership would decrease, but with the undervalued TV contract getting even more undervalued in the future, I guess I can see why the P5 think they would be better off.

I think there are other factors besides just missing out on the cinderellas. For one, there are thousands of viewers who watch the NCAAT tournament because they are a fan of one of the non-P5 schools. I think there is a significant population of these people who would not watch a league that their school was not a part of. Especially if the NCAA persisted in direct competition. A P5 only tournament would also either have to be smaller (32 teams) or would have to include all P5 teams regardless of record. I think an "everyone gets into the postseason approach" would significantly impact interest and I think reducing the size of the tournament would be a non-starter. Maybe the money still makes sense but I again question a bunch of change averse entities who currently have immense power in the status quo coming together to take this large of a risk.

This is why I tend to think that if the P5 were to break off, they would either take some of the other leagues with them in basketball, including the Big East...or just break off in football and keep the remaining sports in the NCAA. P5 football by itself could absolutely thrive, but basketball is so driven by March Madness that I think they would want to preserve that somehow. I also don't think they would risk the remaining NCAA schools setting up a tournament that leeched viewers from them when taking just a few more of the top leagues would kill any chance of that.
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Shooter McGavin

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #126 on: May 11, 2022, 06:17:46 PM »
I think there are other factors besides just missing out on the cinderellas. For one, there are thousands of viewers who watch the NCAAT tournament because they are a fan of one of the non-P5 schools. I think there is a significant population of these people who would not watch a league that their school was not a part of. Especially if the NCAA persisted in direct competition. A P5 only tournament would also either have to be smaller (32 teams) or would have to include all P5 teams regardless of record. I think an "everyone gets into the postseason approach" would significantly impact interest and I think reducing the size of the tournament would be a non-starter. Maybe the money still makes sense but I again question a bunch of change averse entities who currently have immense power in the status quo coming together to take this large of a risk.

This is why I tend to think that if the P5 were to break off, they would either take some of the other leagues with them in basketball, including the Big East...or just break off in football and keep the remaining sports in the NCAA. P5 football by itself could absolutely thrive, but basketball is so driven by March Madness that I think they would want to preserve that somehow. I also don't think they would risk the remaining NCAA schools setting up a tournament that leeched viewers from them when taking just a few more of the top leagues would kill any chance of that.

I agree with this assessment.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #127 on: May 11, 2022, 07:03:08 PM »
I think there are other factors besides just missing out on the cinderellas. For one, there are thousands of viewers who watch the NCAAT tournament because they are a fan of one of the non-P5 schools. I think there is a significant population of these people who would not watch a league that their school was not a part of. Especially if the NCAA persisted in direct competition. A P5 only tournament would also either have to be smaller (32 teams) or would have to include all P5 teams regardless of record. I think an "everyone gets into the postseason approach" would significantly impact interest and I think reducing the size of the tournament would be a non-starter. Maybe the money still makes sense but I again question a bunch of change averse entities who currently have immense power in the status quo coming together to take this large of a risk.

This is why I tend to think that if the P5 were to break off, they would either take some of the other leagues with them in basketball, including the Big East...or just break off in football and keep the remaining sports in the NCAA. P5 football by itself could absolutely thrive, but basketball is so driven by March Madness that I think they would want to preserve that somehow. I also don't think they would risk the remaining NCAA schools setting up a tournament that leeched viewers from them when taking just a few more of the top leagues would kill any chance of that.

This makes sense.
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MU82

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #128 on: May 11, 2022, 09:48:17 PM »
I nominate TAMU for NCAA president.
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MUBurrow

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #129 on: May 12, 2022, 08:53:51 AM »
I also don't think they would risk the remaining NCAA schools setting up a tournament that leeched viewers from them when taking just a few more of the top leagues would kill any chance of that.

Great post TAMU, I agree and especially agree with the excerpted part above.  The P5 is even more top heavy in basketball than football, if that makes any sense. The #3 SEC team vs #2 Big 10 team is a huge draw for me in football compared to any non-P5 game.  But am I dramatically more likely to tune into an LSU-Purdue basketball game than I am Cincinnati-UConn?  Sure the P5 games would get some more eyeballs, but probably not enough to scale to the cost of splitting off.

WhiteTrash

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #130 on: May 12, 2022, 08:40:30 PM »
In my humble opinion, I see a lot of wishful thinking on this thread. P5 schools and conferences do nothing in the best interest of the sports or other schools. Every decision is based upon what is best for that school or conference. They don't care about anything but making more money.  They don't care about wins or loses as long as they can make more money. They don't care about the health of college sports they only care about money. Will Texas and OU win more or less in the SEC? Will they have a better chance at the playoffs? BUT, will they make more money?

With no one in charge and looking out for the best interest of college sports, this is the default of almost any person or organization.

The P5 schools don't care at all if the post season basketball tournament has fewer viewers and lower revenues. If the revenues to each P5 school goes up, that is a win. A bigger slice of a smaller pie is OK with them.

If NFL teams lived in the same competitive structure as the NCAA, the Cowboys, Giants, Bears, Rams, etc. would happily let the Bills, Bengals and Packers fold. I think the NFL, through strong leadership and concern for the greater good of the game, have a structure that allows revenue sharing and salary caps.

I'd be welcome to any valid examples of the P5 doing something that is beneficial to others at their expense.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #131 on: May 12, 2022, 08:50:28 PM »
In my humble opinion, I see a lot of wishful thinking on this thread. P5 schools and conferences do nothing in the best interest of the sports or other schools. Every decision is based upon what is best for that school or conference. They don't care about anything but making more money.  They don't care about wins or loses as long as they can make more money. They don't care about the health of college sports they only care about money. Will Texas and OU win more or less in the SEC? Will they have a better chance at the playoffs? BUT, will they make more money?

With no one in charge and looking out for the best interest of college sports, this is the default of almost any person or organization.

The P5 schools don't care at all if the post season basketball tournament has fewer viewers and lower revenues. If the revenues to each P5 school goes up, that is a win. A bigger slice of a smaller pie is OK with them.

If NFL teams lived in the same competitive structure as the NCAA, the Cowboys, Giants, Bears, Rams, etc. would happily let the Bills, Bengals and Packers fold. I think the NFL, through strong leadership and concern for the greater good of the game, have a structure that allows revenue sharing and salary caps.

I'd be welcome to any valid examples of the P5 doing something that is beneficial to others at their expense.

**Continuing with autobid conference winners in championships.

**Not increasing scholarship limits.

**Keeping basketball championship one loss and you’re out.
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #132 on: May 12, 2022, 09:28:02 PM »
The P5 schools don't care at all if the post season basketball tournament has fewer viewers and lower revenues. If the revenues to each P5 school goes up, that is a win. A bigger slice of a smaller pie is OK with them.

The P5 already gets massive slices of a massive pie in college basketball. Splitting off won't increase the size of their slices by much and may decrease the size of the pie substantially. Football? Makes absolute sense to split. Basketball, I'm less certain. I think the most likely scenario is that the status quo remains and the second most likely scenario is that P5 football splits from the NCAA while leaving everything else in the NCAA.

You are also thinking about universities like they are businesses. Universities are MUCH more resistant to change. As my old boss used to say, "If you want to take a sh*t on campus you have to get at least three committees to agree on recommendations for size, consistency, and odor."
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WhiteTrash

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #133 on: May 13, 2022, 08:03:44 AM »
**Continuing with autobid conference winners in championships.

**Not increasing scholarship limits.

**Keeping basketball championship one loss and you’re out.
All excellent examples of the 340+ schools NCAA choices.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #134 on: May 13, 2022, 08:18:24 AM »
All excellent examples of the 340+ schools NCAA choices.

Ah I see we have gone the shifting goalposts route.  Carry on...
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WhiteTrash

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #135 on: May 13, 2022, 08:29:05 AM »
The P5 already gets massive slices of a massive pie in college basketball. Splitting off won't increase the size of their slices by much and may decrease the size of the pie substantially. Football? Makes absolute sense to split. Basketball, I'm less certain. I think the most likely scenario is that the status quo remains and the second most likely scenario is that P5 football splits from the NCAA while leaving everything else in the NCAA.

You are also thinking about universities like they are businesses. Universities are MUCH more resistant to change. As my old boss used to say, "If you want to take a sh*t on campus you have to get at least three committees to agree on recommendations for size, consistency, and odor."
I hope you are right but every decision made by the P5 is a revenue driven. They do not care about anything but money. A reduction in opportunities for college athletes is just fine with them.  It took federal regulations to provide "equal" opportunities for women. Remove Title IX and you'll see sports for women shrink so fast your head will spin.

I'm not saying I blame them. I'd probably do the exact same thing. This is a pure money grab. Not one athlete, coach, AD or school president cares about what college sports will look like 10, 20 or 30 years from now. I can't think of one decision in the past 20 or 30 years that has helped college sports at some short term expense to a school or conference.

In pro sports we have the Yankees and Cowboys shifting revenue to the Royals and Packers and a salary cap; and we all applaud the NFL and MLB at the massive revenue growth of the leagues.  Try asking the SEC to move revenue to CUSA and for all schools to have the same budget. That would be funny.

I know it has been proposed before, but maybe, in football, the non-P5 schools need to move to the spring season and pull the "payday" games from the P5. I'd be interested to see how Big 10 fans would react to loosing home games against the MAC.

WhiteTrash

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #136 on: May 13, 2022, 08:32:34 AM »
Ah I see we have gone the shifting goalposts route.  Carry on...
Huh?

I guess your playing chess and I'm playing checkers.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #137 on: May 13, 2022, 09:30:33 AM »
I hope you are right but every decision made by the P5 is a revenue driven. They do not care about anything but money. A reduction in opportunities for college athletes is just fine with them.  It took federal regulations to provide "equal" opportunities for women. Remove Title IX and you'll see sports for women shrink so fast your head will spin.

I'm not saying I blame them. I'd probably do the exact same thing. This is a pure money grab. Not one athlete, coach, AD or school president cares about what college sports will look like 10, 20 or 30 years from now. I can't think of one decision in the past 20 or 30 years that has helped college sports at some short term expense to a school or conference.

I don't know if you are missing or just not agreeing with my point. I believe that the P5 breaking off in anything but football will result in lower revenues, ergo they will stay. Breaking off in football will lead to higher revenues. Therefore if they were to break off, breaking off in football alone would lead to the highest revenues.
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muwarrior69

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #138 on: May 13, 2022, 10:08:19 AM »
In my humble opinion, I see a lot of wishful thinking on this thread. P5 schools and conferences do nothing in the best interest of the sports or other schools. Every decision is based upon what is best for that school or conference. They don't care about anything but making more money.  They don't care about wins or loses as long as they can make more money. They don't care about the health of college sports they only care about money. Will Texas and OU win more or less in the SEC? Will they have a better chance at the playoffs? BUT, will they make more money?

With no one in charge and looking out for the best interest of college sports, this is the default of almost any person or organization.

The P5 schools don't care at all if the post season basketball tournament has fewer viewers and lower revenues. If the revenues to each P5 school goes up, that is a win. A bigger slice of a smaller pie is OK with them.

If NFL teams lived in the same competitive structure as the NCAA, the Cowboys, Giants, Bears, Rams, etc. would happily let the Bills, Bengals and Packers fold. I think the NFL, through strong leadership and concern for the greater good of the game, have a structure that allows revenue sharing and salary caps.

I'd be welcome to any valid examples of the P5 doing something that is beneficial to others at their expense.

..and have sucked the last 10 years or so; maybe joining the NCAA would improve their fortunes.

...spoken as a Giants fan. I always wonder how fans throw good money at a  mediocre organization like the Detroit Lions. They would have to pay me to watch a game after so may years of failure.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2022, 10:14:31 AM by muwarrior69 »

FartyEightHours

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #139 on: May 13, 2022, 08:34:16 PM »
And we fired buzz over a t shirt.  #jokerworld
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tower912

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #140 on: May 13, 2022, 08:35:47 PM »
Buzz wasn't fired.
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FartyEightHours

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #141 on: May 13, 2022, 08:36:50 PM »
Maybe. We gave him heat in the least.
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tower912

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #142 on: May 13, 2022, 08:39:10 PM »
No maybe.   He got suspended for the t-shirt.  He chose to leave for Virginia Tech.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

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Billy Hoyle

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #144 on: May 13, 2022, 10:55:44 PM »
**Continuing with autobid conference winners in championships.

**Not increasing scholarship limits.

**Keeping basketball championship one loss and you’re out.

**the Autonomy conferences want to cut down on auto bids. Think the World Cup playoffs where conference champs from low major conferences have to play their way in. St Peters’s would have been forced to win a play in game under their proposed scenario. Minimum number of bids for Autonomy conferences too. Only in the early stages right now, nothing formal.

**for now, increasing scholarships in headcount sports is not on the table. It is in equivalency sports. However, getting rid of coaching limits is in the table.
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MU82

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #145 on: May 15, 2022, 08:46:39 AM »
Raleigh/Charlotte newspaper article about how UNC set the tone for NIL, including these collectives ...

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/article261375882.html?ac_cid=DM646192&ac_bid=-131990657

The main gist:

Carolina partnered with TBG, signing a multi-year agreement announced in April 2021 to create a group licensing deal with alumni of its men’s basketball and women’s soccer teams. It was the first deal of its kind nationally and explains why more fans were spotted wearing jerseys of Tyler Hansbrough, Vince Carter and the like at the Dean E. Smith Center this season during basketball games.

It ultimately was praised by other NCAA schools for providing a template for how NIL could work once it was approved for current collegiate athletes.

It’s one of the reasons why UNC has been viewed as the prototype in how it has prepared for NIL, which has arguably become the biggest challenge for athletic departments this century.

The one-year anniversary of the NCAA approving NIL is coming up on July 1. But not every school is on equal footing in being equipped to handle everything it entails. Some smaller schools just don’t have the resources to devote to it. Even some schools in the Power Five conferences are behind because they didn’t prioritize it based on how slowly the NCAA moved to approve legislation.
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The Equalizer

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #146 on: May 15, 2022, 10:15:04 AM »
The P5 already gets massive slices of a massive pie in college basketball. Splitting off won't increase the size of their slices by much and may decrease the size of the pie substantially. Football? Makes absolute sense to split. Basketball, I'm less certain. I think the most likely scenario is that the status quo remains and the second most likely scenario is that P5 football splits from the NCAA while leaving everything else in the NCAA.

You are also thinking about universities like they are businesses. Universities are MUCH more resistant to change. As my old boss used to say, "If you want to take a sh*t on campus you have to get at least three committees to agree on recommendations for size, consistency, and odor."

I don't think the slice is as massive as you think, given the way tournament revenues are allocated

In 2022, P5 teams received 70 of the 132 tourament units, or about 53%. 
3 of 8 in the First Four
28 of 64 first round teams 
20 of 32 second round teams
11 of 16 in the sweet 16
5 of  the elite eight
3 of the final four

And then you have to consider that this is just the allocation of the 60% of the tournament revenue that gets distributed to the participating teams. 40% goes to the NCAA to fund their operations.  So the P5 actually only gets about 32% of the basketball tournament revenue. 

Even if you're right in that there would be a decline in revenue if the P5 splits, the decline would have to be absolutely massive before it would be a net loss.  A small to moderate decline in overall revenue would mean a massive increase going to the P5.  And I can't imagine they would continue to fund a bloated NCAA bureaucracy, so the % off the top to whatever governing body is set up would be much smaller.


Shooter McGavin

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #147 on: May 15, 2022, 10:27:23 AM »
I don't think the slice is as massive as you think, given the way tournament revenues are allocated

In 2022, P5 teams received 70 of the 132 tourament units, or about 53%. 
3 of 8 in the First Four
28 of 64 first round teams 
20 of 32 second round teams
11 of 16 in the sweet 16
5 of  the elite eight
3 of the final four

And then you have to consider that this is just the allocation of the 60% of the tournament revenue that gets distributed to the participating teams. 40% goes to the NCAA to fund their operations.  So the P5 actually only gets about 32% of the basketball tournament revenue. 

Even if you're right in that there would be a decline in revenue if the P5 splits, the decline would have to be absolutely massive before it would be a net loss.  A small to moderate decline in overall revenue would mean a massive increase going to the P5.  And I can't imagine they would continue to fund a bloated NCAA bureaucracy, so the % off the top to whatever governing body is set up would be much smaller.

Many people like me watch out of conference basketball games because of the context it brings to their own team and conference.  How good are the best teams in other  conferences compared to ours? Maybe we’ll play this team or that player down the road in the tournament.  If the P5 had there own tournament these games and their regular season games would become exponentially less interesting to me and millions of fans. 

Are the P5 really making NCAA type money on their conference tournaments?  Because that is what it would be.  A glorified conference tournament with much less national interest. I think it would ruin college basketball.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #148 on: May 15, 2022, 10:44:30 AM »
I don't think the slice is as massive as you think, given the way tournament revenues are allocated

In 2022, P5 teams received 70 of the 132 tourament units, or about 53%. 
3 of 8 in the First Four
28 of 64 first round teams 
20 of 32 second round teams
11 of 16 in the sweet 16
5 of  the elite eight
3 of the final four

And then you have to consider that this is just the allocation of the 60% of the tournament revenue that gets distributed to the participating teams. 40% goes to the NCAA to fund their operations.  So the P5 actually only gets about 32% of the basketball tournament revenue. 

Even if you're right in that there would be a decline in revenue if the P5 splits, the decline would have to be absolutely massive before it would be a net loss.  A small to moderate decline in overall revenue would mean a massive increase going to the P5.  And I can't imagine they would continue to fund a bloated NCAA bureaucracy, so the % off the top to whatever governing body is set up would be much smaller.

You're ignoring everything outside the tournament, the fact that the later round ncaat  units are worth exponentially more,  and the massive costs they would have to take on without the NCAA bureaucracy.
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MU82

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Re: New NIL Collective for MBB and WBB
« Reply #149 on: May 15, 2022, 10:48:04 AM »
40% goes to the NCAA to fund their operations.

And I can't imagine they would continue to fund a bloated NCAA bureaucracy

They'd have their own bloated bureaucracy, whose operations would be funded by a seems-too-effen-large percentage of the take.
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