Shootings at NIU

[SoCalEagle]

Chicos, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but are you advocating for a law that would allow college students to carry a guns on campus?  Wow, I hope that's not your position. 

On the Utah thing, it may not be possible to answer EXACTLY how many school shootings have been prevented by guns in Utah classrooms.  However, it is possible to answer if ANY have been prevented.  Surely there would be a press report somewhere, anywhere, if such a thing occurred just once.  Is there such a press report? 

How is it possible to answer if any have been prevented....is there a way to interview potential criminals that don't commit a crime?  Of course not.  That's the deterrence part.

Every day during the cold war nuclear war was prevented because of a deterrence...mutually assured destruction.  Yet we don't run around and say 365 days a year a nuclear war was prevented.

Same thing. It's impossible to gauge.

Now, as for guns by students....I ask again, if students or professors had guns at Va. Tech, do you think 23 students would have been killed?  I don't.


And I'm not the only person throwing out this idea....and it's only an idea.  My point is that places like Utah allow it and yet this idea by some that places that allow guns will lead to people shooting up like the old west hasn't happened...has it?  No, it hasn't.


An interesting article


http://www.townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2008/02/19/five_questions_about_shootings_at_universities

Suffice to say that no actual attack was ever thwarted by a student on a Utah campus.  Has a planned attack been thwarted, who knows it would just be speculation and why resort to that?  We're talking facts here people. 

So Chicos why don't you take a stand on this issue?  Are you advocating concealed carry laws for students or not?  Yeah, you say it's just an idea.  I say it's a bad idea, how about you? 

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think we're talking facts on both sides on the ledger here.  #1, allowing students to have guns legally hasn't caused shootings (see Utah as reference) or accidents unnecessarily as implied by some.  #2, impossible to tell if attacks have been thwarted.  How many people have a dog and a beware or dog sign on their fence....how many potential burglars see that and just move right on to the next home, yet you will never be able to prove that in fact a burglary is stopped.  Can't prove a negative.


Where do I stand.....well I don't see it as a bad idea.  I'd like evidence to show me where legal citizens carrying guns legally have caused problems....anything going on at Utah schools?  If you can show me evidence of it leading to violence, etc then I might agree with you...other then just the old tired argument that if everyone has guns it will lead to massive violence. 

Personally, as I've said it many times, I'm not a big gun fan.  I don't own one nor would I allow one in my house.  Having said that, if I was in a classroom at Va Tech a few years ago, I sure as hell would have been damn happy if someone in there was legally carrying one rather then watching my classmates drop left and right.

[StillAWarrior]

Regardless, it's a ludicrous notion that a mentally disturbed young man intent on killing others before taking his own life would somehow be deterred by the 1 in 1,000 chance that one of his fellow students is armed.  These guys a) obviously aren't thinking of consequences, b) obviously aren't afraid to die and c) may, in fact, relish that kind of a shoot 'em up.

Frankly, I have absolutely no idea if you are correct about any of these three statements, but I have my doubts.  First, I think the people who do these things do think of the consequences.  In fact, they are completely and totally obsessed with the consequences.  They just don't view them the way that rational people view them.  Along the same lines, these people "obviously aren't afraid to die" but I think they do have very strong views about how they are going to die.  They're hell-bent on killing themselves, and they want to take people along with them.  I think these people really don't want to be killed by others.  That's a different kind of crazy -- suicide by cop.  These nutjobs  have a plan, and they really don't want it to be spoiled by a well-armed, well-trained classmate or professor.  They're not looking for a shoot 'em up -- they're looking for a massacre and suicide.

As I said in a previous post, I'm not sure I'm in favor of allowing students to be armed on campuses -- but I'm not sure I'm against it either.  I really don't worry too much about fist fights turning into gun fights.  What I would be more worried about is the drunk at a party saying, "watch me shoot this can off the window sill" and then shooting his neighbor across the street.  I also think that you're "1 in 1,000"  estimate is low -- I suspect a campus of 10,000 would have more than 10 students packing heat.  Whether that would be a good thing or a bad thing depends on how you view the issue.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Of course they were mentally ill, to suggest they weren't is crazy in and of itself.  That's why I asked the question.

And Pakuni is right, the NIU killer was on meds and decided to come off of them on his own....that equals bad problems usually.


And Pakuni, no I'm not suggesting a university hand out guns...nice hyperbole.  I'm suggesting if a legal citizen applies to carry a weapon legally then it should be allowed.

If you can point to where students at Utah are running around settling scores with their concealed weapons, that would be great...thanks.

Or for that matter, where states that allow concealed weapons how that has caused an uptick of gun related crimes...it hasn't, but I invite you to search anyway.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Are you guys even aware of what it takes to get a concealed weapon license in most states?  Some of the hyperbole here makes it sound like you don't...like you just go to the local Wal Mart and strap one on to your belt.

That's why I don't think it's a bad idea.  These people have to go through training, back ground checks, and full liability legally to the point they can get in trouble for carrying and being intoxicated, or even threatening to use the weapon.

This notion of the wild west and gun toting is just pure crap based on the realities of people that do carry and the laws/training in place for those that do.


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From wikipedia

[edit] Research into the effects of concealed carry laws on crime
There have been many studies published in academic journals regarding the effects of various concealed carry laws on crime rate[citation needed]. Academics have also taken the discussion to books, blogs, and oral debates.

In his book, More Guns, Less Crime, pro-gun scholar John Lott's analysis of crime report data has shown some statistically significant effects of concealed carry laws. One major conclusion was that locations which enacted more permissive concealed carry laws had a decrease in violent crime but an increase in property crime. The possible reasons for this rise in property crime are twofold:

Property crimes include trespassing, and concealed-carry statutes that include prohibited-area laws introduce the possibility of trespass where the individual would otherwise be in violation of a weapons law by carrying concealed (e.g. unlawful carry) or would not carry and be lawful.
Concealed carry allows potential victims of violent crime to prevent such crime; as a result, the assailant, if not fatally shot, is instead charged with a property crime such as burglary instead of homicide.
In both cases, crime is reduced overall, and criminal activity that does occur is recategorized as to type and severity because of the effects of the change in law.

Don Kates summarizes the consensus{fact}} reached by criminological research into gun control thus:

"Unfortunately, an almost perfect inverse correlation exists between those who are affected by gun laws, particularly bans, and those whom enforcement should affect. Those easiest to disarm are the responsible and law abiding citizens whose guns represent no meaningful social problem. Irresponsible and criminal owners, whose gun possession creates or exacerbates so many social ills, are the ones most difficult to disarm."[20]

Regardless of the interpretation of statistics, the trend in the United States has been towards greater permissiveness of concealed carry[citation needed]. In Florida, which first introduced "shall-issue" concealed carry laws, crimes committed against residents dropped markedly upon the general issuance of concealed-carry licenses,[21] which had the unintended consequence of putting tourists in Florida driving marked rental cars at risk from criminals since tourists may be readily presumed unarmed[citation needed]. Florida responded by enacting laws prohibiting the obvious marking of rental cars. In 1991, the Luby's massacre prompted Texas lawmakers to pass a concealed carry law that came into effect in 1995.[22]

Research comparing various countries' violent crime rates, murder rates, and crimes committed with weapons, have found that legal ownership of guns, including concealed carry guns, generally reduces crime rates.[23][20]

University of Washington public health professor Brandon Centerwall prepared a study comparing homicide rates between Canada and the U.S., as the two countries are very similar, yet have different handgun ownership rates. He reported "Major differences in the prevalence of handguns have not resulted in differing total criminal homicide rates in Canadian provinces and adjoining US states."[24] In his conclusions he published the following admonition:

"If you are surprised by my findings, so are we. We did not begin this research with any intent to "exonerate" handguns, but there it is -- a negative finding, to be sure, but a negative finding is nevertheless a positive contribution. It directs us where NOT to aim public health resources."[25]

[SaintPaulWarrior]

I have a conceal/carry permit here in the Peoples Republic of Minnesota.  Go to training, get certified by the county sheriff and have gun will travel.  Carry it everywhere.

[SoCalEagle]

I think we're talking facts on both sides on the ledger here.  #1, allowing students to have guns legally hasn't caused shootings (see Utah as reference) or accidents unnecessarily as implied by some.  #2, impossible to tell if attacks have been thwarted.  How many people have a dog and a beware or dog sign on their fence....how many potential burglars see that and just move right on to the next home, yet you will never be able to prove that in fact a burglary is stopped.  Can't prove a negative.


Where do I stand.....well I don't see it as a bad idea.  I'd like evidence to show me where legal citizens carrying guns legally have caused problems....anything going on at Utah schools?  If you can show me evidence of it leading to violence, etc then I might agree with you...other then just the old tired argument that if everyone has guns it will lead to massive violence. 

Personally, as I've said it many times, I'm not a big gun fan.  I don't own one nor would I allow one in my house.  Having said that, if I was in a classroom at Va Tech a few years ago, I sure as hell would have been damn happy if someone in there was legally carrying one rather then watching my classmates drop left and right.

So you are for allowing students to carry concealed handguns on campus.  Got it.  Thanks for clarifying.  I think you're wrong, but at least I know where you stand. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

To be clear, I said I didn't think it was a bad idea.  I can't find any data anywhere that shows where citizens with concealed weapons lawfully carrying them are causing an increase in crime, especially gun related.  In fact, all the data I find shows the opposite.

I'm not suggesting it's a good idea, but I certainly don't think it's a bad one unless one of you that strongly disagrees can provide some data showing it's wrong and here's why it's wrong.  I'm open to that conversation, but I'd like the data to support it not just "I think it's a bad idea because I don't like guns".  I don't like guns either, but they can be used (and often are) for the greater good.

[SoCalEagle]

To be clear, I said I didn't think it was a bad idea.  I can't find any data anywhere that shows where citizens with concealed weapons lawfully carrying them are causing an increase in crime, especially gun related.  In fact, all the data I find shows the opposite.

I'm not suggesting it's a good idea, but I certainly don't think it's a bad one unless one of you that strongly disagrees can provide some data showing it's wrong and here's why it's wrong.  I'm open to that conversation, but I'd like the data to support it not just "I think it's a bad idea because I don't like guns".  I don't like guns either, but they can be used (and often are) for the greater good.

For goodness sakes, pick a side Chicos.  It's a topic you brought up, surely you can tell us where you stand.  Get off the fence, man.

Oh I get it, you voted for it before you voted against it. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

LOL...that doesn't even make sense of being for something before I was against it...doesn't apply at all.  I didnt' say I was for something and changed my mind...nice try.

What I said is I don't think it's a bad idea if it's implemented the way I said, which is under the current tough restrictions that are required to carry a concealed weapon.

Now, for those that don't think it's a good idea, what data do you have to support that it's a bad idea or is it just one of those "gut feelings"?

[rocky_warrior]

For goodness sakes, pick a side Chicos.  It's a topic you brought up, surely you can tell us where you stand.  Get off the fence, man.

Oh I get it, you voted for it before you voted against it. 

Now, for those that don't think it's a good idea, what data do you have to support that it's a bad idea or is it just one of those "gut feelings"?

Oh my - look at the original topic (and top few posts)!! This thread should be about sharing info from NIU, and extending sympathy (if you so choose). 

Instead, you guys decide to bicker about students carrying guns (and gun control...really).  I knew there was a reason I don't like politics...locked.