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Author Topic: New Frosh Class at MU  (Read 37083 times)

Lennys Tap

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #175 on: August 29, 2021, 01:45:26 PM »
How do you feel about that U of Chicago report that indcated ACT scores can put students in academic situations for which they're unprepared?

I don’t know a single thing about the report and I’m not trying to argue that a particular standardized test is perfect or the end all be all - but I will argue that test that measure achievement and/or ability are helpful and in some cases necessary.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #176 on: August 29, 2021, 01:54:30 PM »
Never said or implied anything remotely close to this.


Yes you did. Sorry it slipped your mind:

“…if I found a “really great” heart surgeon who scored an 18 (or 16, 14,12 etc.) on his ACT I’d eat your hat. And he can operate on your loved ones, not mine.”
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

Lennys Tap

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #177 on: August 29, 2021, 02:00:56 PM »

Yes you did. Sorry it slipped your mind:

“…if I found a “really great” heart surgeon who scored an 18 (or 16, 14,12 etc.) on his ACT I’d eat your hat. And he can operate on your loved ones, not mine.”

Guess’s you missed the “I’d eat your hat part”. That means he or she is non existent. But in the one in a million chance that you find one, he can operate on your loved ones, not mine.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #178 on: August 29, 2021, 02:36:54 PM »
Guess’s you missed the “I’d eat your hat part”. That means he or she is non existent. But in the one in a million chance that you find one, he can operate on your loved ones, not mine.


Lol.

That’s logic so Chicoseaque that even Chico’s would be embarrassed to use it.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

JWags85

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #179 on: August 29, 2021, 04:53:35 PM »
One of my mentors drilled into us that the 2nd best answer to any question (the best, being the correct answer) is I don't know. He used to answer lots of questions in class, conferences, etc. with something very similar to, "You know what, I don't know, but get back to me in a couple days and I'll have an answer for you."

I dated a physical therapist for awhile. I had a hip issues and asked her for help.  She got her computer and looked up some stuff.  Some of it was Googling looking for a resource she liked but didnt have bookmarked.  I was kind of stunned cause I assumed she had sort of an encyclopedic knowledge of treatment.  And she explained that diagnosis and understanding of treatment “path” was more important that a snap “do this” treatment. Always add to your knowledge

My next physical, I asked my GP, who I’m friendly with and have been going to since I was a teen, something similar. He echoed her sentiment.  He said people would be shocked how much doctors look up. Medicine is about learning and adapting and adding to your pool of experiences, not necessarily memorizing a bunch of conditions and treatments.

“Struggling in high school” is beside the point. I know a lot of really smart people who screwed around and got middling or worse grades in high school and then went on to great things - but none of those people struggled with IQ or standardized tests. It was always clear they were smart enough.

I’m a big believer in the American Dream and the success that hard work can bring to all - not just the most gifted. But I’m a realist. Some professions require special qualities - be they physical or mental. To tell a 17 year old who is small, slow and clumsy that he has a future in the NBA is silly and a little cruel. Same goes for telling a 17 year old with a 95 IQ or an 16 or 18 on the ACT that a career as a heart surgeon awaits.

While I certainly understand all the arguments and standardized tests are not perfect, some of this all feels grounded in the sentiment of “all children are smart and special…in their own way”.  And that absolutely has some merit but it doesn’t have to be academically and it’s affiliated intelligence. Judge Smails was an ass clown and his comment was made in regards to monetary elitism, but the sentiment that the world needs ditch diggers wasn’t completely without merit.

It’s not meant to be arrogant or snobby.  I went to a very good suburban HS where college wasn’t an option, it was the only option.  But frankly it probably wasn’t the best for a good number of students.

My last anecdote, related to what Lenny has been saying, my cousin had a very good GPA in HS. Not many AP classes and just an ok HS, but a GPA good enough to get her into Northeastern despite an ACT in the lowish 20s. She had done well in sciences in HS and advisors recommended pre-med.  She decided on becoming a doctor and promptly got mollywhopped by the curriculum. She ended up transferring and changing majors and ended where she probably should have been in the first place

Lennys Tap

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #180 on: August 29, 2021, 05:15:32 PM »

Lol.

That’s logic so Chicoseaque that even Chico’s would be embarrassed to use it.

LOL indeed.

You get owned and all you’ve got is your BS, misspelled “Chico thing”.

As predictable as it is pathetic. Sad.

Lennys Tap

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #181 on: August 29, 2021, 05:27:13 PM »


While I certainly understand all the arguments and standardized tests are not perfect, some of this all feels grounded in the sentiment of “all children are smart and special…in their own way”.  And that absolutely has some merit but it doesn’t have to be academically and it’s affiliated intelligence. Judge Smails was an ass clown and his comment was made in regards to monetary elitism, but the sentiment that the world needs ditch diggers wasn’t completely without merit.

It’s not meant to be arrogant or snobby.  I went to a very good suburban HS where college wasn’t an option, it was the only option.  But frankly it probably wasn’t the best for a good number of students.

My last anecdote, related to what Lenny has been saying, my cousin had a very good GPA in HS. Not many AP classes and just an ok HS, but a GPA good enough to get her into Northeastern despite an ACT in the lowish 20s. She had done well in sciences in HS and advisors recommended pre-med.  She decided on becoming a doctor and promptly got mollywhopped by the curriculum. She ended up transferring and changing majors and ended where she probably should have been in the first place

Your experiences are very similar to mine. 100% agree.

Pakuni

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #182 on: August 29, 2021, 05:42:25 PM »

While I certainly understand all the arguments and standardized tests are not perfect, some of this all feels grounded in the sentiment of “all children are smart and special…in their own way”.  And that absolutely has some merit but it doesn’t have to be academically and it’s affiliated intelligence. Judge Smails was an ass clown and his comment was made in regards to monetary elitism, but the sentiment that the world needs ditch diggers wasn’t completely without merit.
 

This has a real "participation trophies make me angry" vibe to it.
This has nothing to do with every child being special. It has to do with the fact that standardized tests like the ACT have been proven imprecise indicators of intelligence or future academic success. 
Why is that so hard for some people here to just accept? Is it simply a "this is the way it's always been done" kind of thing? Why the slavish devotion to something that's, at best, deeply flawed and easily replaced by more effective and accurate measures?


Quote
My last anecdote, related to what Lenny has been saying, my cousin had a very good GPA in HS. Not many AP classes and just an ok HS, but a GPA good enough to get her into Northeastern despite an ACT in the lowish 20s. She had done well in sciences in HS and advisors recommended pre-med.  She decided on becoming a doctor and promptly got mollywhopped by the curriculum. She ended up transferring and changing majors and ended where she probably should have been in the first place

Anecdote isn't data, and here's a prime example.
According to the latest data, it more often works the other way around ... that based on high standardized test scores, kids get into schools for which they're not prepared and end up washing out.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2021, 05:51:01 PM by Pakuni »

PorkysButthole

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #183 on: August 29, 2021, 05:57:01 PM »
Bringing it back to how all this impacts MU, Porky would be curious to know what folks' thoughts are on the enrollment challenges and what MU can do to get the trajectory back on the right track.  Porky has it on good authority that this is the 4th year in a row MU didn't meet its enrollment goal after a record frosh class in Fall 2017.   Granted the last two years have been tough for a lot of institutions so it's arguably unfair to include the last two years, but Porky was very optimistic things would turnaround this fall after an almost 30+% increase in applications for the class of 2025 vs the previous couple of years according to MU's admissions coordinator for the Northeastern US, who Porky knows and maintains regular communication with.  That figure isn't just an increase in applications from that region, that was an overall figure.   What also stood out to Porky was that the release stated MU's Frosh came from 37 states.   Historically that number has been closer to 47 if not all 50.   A previous poster mentioned that many schools have record classes this year.   Porky isn't suggesting MU always has to have a record class, but it seems abundantly clear to Porky that something isn't right and needs to be corrected since MU was having issues prior to the pandemic.   Porky wants MU to thrive, but it isn't so what are the solutions?

JWags85

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #184 on: August 29, 2021, 07:51:59 PM »
This has a real "participation trophies make me angry" vibe to it.
This has nothing to do with every child being special. It has to do with the fact that standardized tests like the ACT have been proven imprecise indicators of intelligence or future academic success. 
Why is that so hard for some people here to just accept? Is it simply a "this is the way it's always been done" kind of thing? Why the slavish devotion to something that's, at best, deeply flawed and easily replaced by more effective and accurate measures?

Sweet condescending generalization! I grew up in the participation trophy era. I have a good friend who played on a soccer team that changed from a trophy for MVP and top scorer/assist leader to senior superlative type trophies that everyone got including “most enthusiastic”.  But I couldn’t care less.  I think it’s dumb but if it makes people happy then who cares.  Stuff like my nephew’s school district changing F’s to NME (not meeting expectations) cause “failing is too harsh” is a different story.

I have no “slavish” devotion to them.  I can totally accept and support standardized testing being reworked.  But I’m also not offended by the idea of tests that are aimed to measure intelligence, innate or otherwise. The study about ACT versus GPA is interesting but it seems a bit binary, graduate or not.  One would think schools look for students who will not only graduate but go on to future successes, both for prestige and financial donations.

It feels standardized testing, in the SAT/ACT sense, is being deemed racist, flawed, archaic, etc… and being binned without an alternative ever truly discussed.

Lennys Tap

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #185 on: August 29, 2021, 08:21:37 PM »
standardized tests like the ACT have been proven imprecise indicators of intelligence or future academic success. 
Why is that so hard for some people here to just accept?


I have no problem accepting the fact that standardized tests are “imprecise” and can’t predict academic or any other kind of success. Not hard at all. A high IQ means nothing without a work ethic.

But I also have no problem accepting the fact that low scores on standardized test can essentially rule out careers in the most difficult of disciplines - medicine, nuclear physics, etc.. Why is that so hard for some people here to just accept?

real chili 83

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #186 on: August 29, 2021, 08:35:02 PM »
Yeah, cute joke.

But the guy that finishes last in the class in Medical school is still a very smart guy or he never would have gotten in in the first place.

Good lord Jockey.  Even Hards got the joke. 😎

When the woke folk start to gig you, you should rethink your shtick. 


Sorry scoop, Jockey will respond with a few retorts, trying to “rebunk” my humor with broad brush hyperbole.  After reading his witticisms, I recommend a bit of fresh air to help us all to “smarten up”.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #187 on: August 29, 2021, 08:35:41 PM »
LOL indeed.

You get owned and all you’ve got is your BS, misspelled “Chico thing”.

As predictable as it is pathetic. Sad.



I caught you flat out implying something you said you didn’t imply. So instead of admitting you did, you claim what you typed didn’t actually mean what you typed.

And then the insults.

I used to think you were kind of losing it. Now I realize you’re just a pathetic old man on the internet. So sad.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #188 on: August 29, 2021, 09:29:23 PM »
But I also have no problem accepting the fact that low scores on standardized test can essentially rule out careers in the most difficult of disciplines - medicine, nuclear physics, etc.. Why is that so hard for some people here to just accept?

Honest question,  do you have any data that supports this assertion? I'm honestly curious,  I've seen a lot of data that says that standardized tests are bad predictors. But I've personally never seen any data that says low standardized scores are/aren't accurate indicators of performance in stem fields
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


Lennys Tap

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #189 on: August 29, 2021, 09:41:24 PM »


I caught you flat out implying something you said you didn’t imply. So instead of admitting you did, you claim what you typed didn’t actually mean what you typed.

And then the insults.

I used to think you were kind of losing it. Now I realize you’re just a pathetic old man on the internet. So sad.

You’ve been stalking me and insulting me here for as long as I can remember so please stop with your whining.

I am old (73 next month) so congrats on getting one thing right but I can still run a 5k in under 25 minutes, and carry a golf handicap that fluctuates between 8 and 11. I’m blessed with a still beautiful and kind wife, 4 great kids and 6 amazing grands. I have great friends from childhood, high school, college, work and beyond.

You’re a past your prime guy in academia who spends an inordinate (two or three times as many hours as your closest competitor) amount of time on a college basketball site.

So I respectfully disagree as to which of our lives is the pathetic and sad one.

Given that basic disagreement (and others) can we agree on one thing? Let’s stop quoting and replying to one another. I’ll be happier, hopefully you’ll be happier and the board will be a better place.


Pakuni

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #190 on: August 29, 2021, 09:59:19 PM »
Sweet condescending generalization!.

Apologies, Wags. I was pokiing fun, not trying to condescend.
I'll bow out before any more unpleasantness.

Lennys Tap

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #191 on: August 29, 2021, 10:19:18 PM »
Honest question,  do you have any data that supports this assertion? I'm honestly curious,  I've seen a lot of data that says that standardized tests are bad predictors. But I've personally never seen any data that says low standardized scores are/aren't accurate indicators of performance in stem fields

Do I have any data that supports the idea that people with low IQs or low SAT scores aren’t good candidates for careers in heart surgery or nuclear physics? No. Where would you find the successful surgeons or physicists with 95 IQs to study?

JWags85

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #192 on: August 29, 2021, 10:24:04 PM »
Apologies, Wags. I was pokiing fun, not trying to condescend.
I'll bow out before any more unpleasantness.

All good man. I’ve been at a trade show all day with the kind of people who love to tell you what your product SHOULD do and why they won’t buy. I may have a bit of a hair trigger.  8-)  I appreciate the intelligent discourse

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #193 on: August 30, 2021, 01:25:18 AM »
Do I have any data that supports the idea that people with low IQs or low SAT scores aren’t good candidates for careers in heart surgery or nuclear physics? No. Where would you find the successful surgeons or physicists with 95 IQs to study?

I didn't ask about IQs, I asked about standardized tests. So you are assuming that low sat or act scores would guarantee that a person wouldn't cut it in a stem field?
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #194 on: August 30, 2021, 06:58:05 AM »
You’ve been stalking me and insulting me here for as long as I can remember so please stop with your whining.

I am old (73 next month) so congrats on getting one thing right but I can still run a 5k in under 25 minutes, and carry a golf handicap that fluctuates between 8 and 11. I’m blessed with a still beautiful and kind wife, 4 great kids and 6 amazing grands. I have great friends from childhood, high school, college, work and beyond.

You’re a past your prime guy in academia who spends an inordinate (two or three times as many hours as your closest competitor) amount of time on a college basketball site.

So I respectfully disagree as to which of our lives is the pathetic and sad one.

Given that basic disagreement (and others) can we agree on one thing? Let’s stop quoting and replying to one another. I’ll be happier, hopefully you’ll be happier and the board will be a better place.



In other words, you were wrong.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2021, 07:01:22 AM by Fluffy Blue Monster »
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

GOO

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #195 on: August 30, 2021, 09:47:00 AM »
So, if one was choosing the perfect doctor, what would one want:

1.  Out of residency for about 7 years.  Not more than 14 years.  I think the half life of doctors is now 10 years from Med School.  The more specialized, the more likely that things change faster.
2.  Someone who keeps up on trends and is very flexible and adaptive. Not set in one's ways. Always learning.
3.  Teaches younger docs/residents so as to keep up on what is going on.  But not too much as the next factor is important. Part of a medical school or involved with one.
4.  Highly Specialized.  Does a lot of the same procedures.  Very focused.
5.  Understands that since he/she is a specialist, understands others know more about the general area and surrounding issues and are needed and he/she needs to work with others for the patient's best interest.  So, works with others who know more than his/her little area, just not as much as his/her limited area.
6.  Walks or Rides a bike for 40 minutes per day.  Doesn't golf or waste time on any things excessive. Mediates twice a day for short periods.
7.  Married.  No kids.  Doesn't Drink.
8.  Sleeps well.  Focus is on his/her patients and not distracted by much else.
9.  Small ego.  A humble learner who other doctors/nurses/assistants want to help and work with.
10.  Part of a hospital "system" that is focused on cutting edge tech, collaboration, with the money to fund the best tech and machines and radiation, etc, etc.
10.A.  Oh ya, high ACT.  Just kidding, Lenny.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2021, 09:49:46 AM by GOO »

Goose

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #196 on: August 30, 2021, 10:43:38 AM »
Lenny

I love when you state the facts to Fluff. I hope my life is as pathetic as your life when I am almost 73 year old. You remain my gold standard on Scoop.

MU82

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #197 on: August 30, 2021, 01:39:18 PM »
Lenny

I love when you state the facts to Fluff. I hope my life is as pathetic as your life when I am almost 73 year old. You remain my gold standard on Scoop.

I almost got insulted, Goose, but I'll happily settle for being your silver standard!
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

Goose

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #198 on: August 30, 2021, 01:48:20 PM »
82

I have had the privilege of spending some time with Lenny in person and he is a class act, on and off of Scoop. Big fan of Lenny.

MU82

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #199 on: August 30, 2021, 03:13:17 PM »
82

I have had the privilege of spending some time with Lenny in person and he is a class act, on and off of Scoop. Big fan of Lenny.

Lenny and I lock horns sometimes on Scoop -- as do you and I -- but he and I like each other. Actually, I shouldn't speak for him; I do like him, though. Seems like good people, and I'd enjoy meeting him one day. Same goes for you, of course.

Scoop is Scoop. It's not real life. At least not for most of us.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

 

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