New Frosh Class at MU

[Pakuni]

The idea that standardized test are worthless is great until you find out your hart surgeon or the person who engineered the plane your about to board scored an 18 on ACT.

These tests are flawed but not worthless.

Being good at analogies and writing a solid essay are super important skills for a heart surgeon.

[Lennys Tap]

Being good at analogies and writing a solid essay are super important skills for a heart surgeon.

Sure, Pak. Lots of great heart surgeons scored 300 on the SAT verbal. My guess is one less than the number of US presidents who  flunked the 3rd grade.

[Pakuni]

Sure, Pak. Lots of great heart surgeons scored 300 on the SAT verbal. My guess is one less than the number of US presidents who  flunked the 3rd grade.

That's exactly what I said, Lenny..
When you need to visit a doctor, do you first inquire about his or her ACT score?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The idea that standardized test are worthless is great until you find out your hart surgeon or the person who engineered the plane your about to board scored an 18 on ACT.

These tests are flawed but not worthless.

Honest question,  has anyone said they are worthless?  I personally don't think they're worthless but I do think they're too heavily relied upon.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Lmao.  We have more networth because the stock market has been on a disgusting run for the last decade.  If you believe that bubble isn't going to pop, I've got a bridge to sell you.  We have more debt, don't own homes at the same pace as our parents, and the housing market is insane.

A decade is a "bubble"? A hot housing market at record low interest rates is "insane" (not the 20% prime rate us Boomers inherited)? Record personal savings rates and debt forgiveness based on stimulus packages is a horrible burden to be handed off? A 13th place ribbon sounds pretty good to me, no offense.

I can't wait for the educational, social, health and economic breakthroughs you Millennials will deliver future generations. I think it will be significant. When are you running for the school board?

-Signed
The Cheese Under Board

[The Sultan]

The idea that standardized test are worthless is great until you find out your hart surgeon or the person who engineered the plane your about to board scored an 18 on ACT.

These tests are flawed but not worthless.

No one said they were worthless.

But do you know what your surgeon would have scored on their ACT?  If you found out that a really great heart surgeon did score a 18 a decade plus years ago, would you not want him to operate on you?

[Lennys Tap]

That's exactly what I said, Lenny..
When you need to visit a doctor, do you first inquire about his or her ACT score?

Of course not. I was always confident that the screening process (which included standardized tests) kept low IQ people out of medical schools. I think that's a good idea.

[Lennys Tap]

A decade is a "bubble"? A hot housing market at record low interest rates is "insane" (not the 20% prime rate us Boomers inherited)? Record personal savings rates and debt forgiveness based on stimulus packages is a horrible burden to be handed off? A 13th place ribbon sounds pretty good to me, no offense.

I can't wait for the educational, social, health and economic breakthroughs you Millennials will deliver future generations. I think it will be significant. When are you running for the school board?

-Signed
The Cheese Under Board

+1- resentful people will bitch no matter how much is given them.

[WhiteTrash]

Honest question,  has anyone said they are worthless?  I personally don't think they're worthless but I do think they're too heavily relied upon.

Hards_Alumni

Quote from: 4everwarriors on
"Standardized tests are basically IQ tests, aina?"

"If you're saying equally pointless, sure."


Also a lot of top schools don't require an ACT or SAT score now.

[Pakuni]

Of course not. I was always confident that the screening process (which included standardized tests) kept low IQ people out of medical schools. I think that's a good idea.

Well, that's sort of the point, isn't it Lenny?
The system has four years of high school, four years of undergrad, a 12-hour medical school entrance exam, four years of medical school, a multi-day, three-step board exam, and five to seven years of residency to weed out those who lack the requisite skills to perform surgery.
But you guys somehow think a three-hour test taken on a Saturday morning as a 16- or 17-year-old is an essential and necessary part of the process. And without that three-hour test taken on a Saturday morning as a 16- or 17-year-old, a "low IQ" person might end up performing your triple bypass.
Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?
In the grand scheme, it's a pimple on an elephant's ass, only far less relevant.

[Lennys Tap]

Well, that's sort of the point, isn't it Lenny?
The system has four years of high school, four years of undergrad, a 12-hour medical school entrance exam, four years of medical school, a multi-day, three-step board exam, and five to seven years of residency to weed out those who lack the requisite skills to perform surgery.
But you guys somehow think a three-hour test taken on a Saturday morning as a 16- or 17-year-old is an essential and necessary part of the process. And without that three-hour test taken on a Saturday morning as a 16- or 17-year-old, a "low IQ" person might end up performing your triple bypass.
Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?
In the grand scheme, it's a pimple on an elephant's ass, only far less relevant.

Of course there are other points along the way where someone who wants to be a doctor is weeded/washed out by the system but a very effective first point is an IQ test.

You mock IQ tests by asking "Has anyone ever asked his heart surgeon what he/she got on the ACT?". Conversely, has anyone ever asked his heart surgeon what his high school class rank was? His undergrad GPA? His med board scores? Etc., etc., etc.? Of course not. That would be stupid.

We assume that the system has given us bright people who completed the necessary work to be qualified. An test that identifies the brightest early is helpful.

[4everwarriors]

Well, that's sort of the point, isn't it Lenny?
The system has four years of high school, four years of undergrad, a 12-hour medical school entrance exam, four years of medical school, a multi-day, three-step board exam, and five to seven years of residency to weed out those who lack the requisite skills to perform surgery.
But you guys somehow think a three-hour test taken on a Saturday morning as a 16- or 17-year-old is an essential and necessary part of the process. And without that three-hour test taken on a Saturday morning as a 16- or 17-year-old, a "low IQ" person might end up performing your triple bypass.
Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?
In the grand scheme, it's a pimple on an elephant's ass, only far less relevant.

Wrong. Had you gone through the process, you'd soon realize the need for all of it. Only the best and the brightest need apply, aina?

[Pakuni]

Of course there are other points along the way where someone who wants to be a doctor is weeded/washed out by the system but a very effective first point is an IQ test.

You mock IQ tests by asking "Has anyone ever asked his heart surgeon what he/she got on the ACT?". Conversely, has anyone ever asked his heart surgeon what his high school class rank was? His undergrad GPA? His med board scores? Etc., etc., etc.? Of course not. That would be stupid.

We assume that the system has given us bright people who completed the necessary work to be qualified. An test that identifies the brightest early is helpful.

First, Lenny, the ACT is not an IQ test. Not sure if you're conflating the two intentionally or if you're simply unaware of that basic fact, but it's a pretty important difference.

Second, there's little evidence that ACT tests are a "very effective" first point. In fact, according to the latest research from the University of Chicago (link to story and full study below) GPAs are five times stronger than standardized scores at predicting future academic success. And, in some cases, there's a negative relationship between ACT scores and academic success, according to the research.

https://news.uchicago.edu/story/test-scores-dont-stack-gpas-predicting-college-success
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.3102/0013189X20902110

Third, I do absolutely mock ACT scores when it comes to considering a heart surgeon, because how well a person does on an ACT says nothing about whether he or she has the unique set of physical, emotional and mental skills to perform a risky surgery over several hours. It's akin to considering an ACT score when evaluating a point guard or quarterback. Sure, those jpbs also require a certain kind of intelligence, but not the kind that's revealed by an ACT.

[Jockey]

Of course there are other points along the way where someone who wants to be a doctor is weeded/washed out by the system but a very effective first point is an IQ test.

You mock IQ tests by asking "Has anyone ever asked his heart surgeon what he/she got on the ACT?". Conversely, has anyone ever asked his heart surgeon what his high school class rank was? His undergrad GPA? His med board scores? Etc., etc., etc.? Of course not. That would be stupid.

We assume that the system has given us bright people who completed the necessary work to be qualified. An test that identifies the brightest early is helpful.

Actually, you SHOULD ask your heart surgeon if he played video games. Thoserare the guys you want operating on your body. Much more important than their ACT score.

Out of 33 surgeons from Beth Israel Medical Center in New York that participated in the Archives of Surgery study, the nine doctors who had at some point played video games at least three hours per week made 37 percent fewer errors, performed 27 percent faster, and scored 42 percent better in the test of surgical skills than the 15 surgeons who had never played video games before.

[Hards Alumni]

A decade is a "bubble"? A hot housing market at record low interest rates is "insane" (not the 20% prime rate us Boomers inherited)? Record personal savings rates and debt forgiveness based on stimulus packages is a horrible burden to be handed off? A 13th place ribbon sounds pretty good to me, no offense.

I can't wait for the educational, social, health and economic breakthroughs you Millennials will deliver future generations. I think it will be significant. When are you running for the school board?

-Signed
The Cheese Under Board

I don't even know where to start with this absolute sh!t fan of a post.  So instead of wasting my Saturday digging through source after source I'm just going to walk away.  I'd just be talking to a brick wall anyway.

[Pakuni]

Actually, you SHOULD ask your heart surgeon if he played video games. Thoserare the guys you want operating on your body. Much more important than their ACT score.

Out of 33 surgeons from Beth Israel Medical Center in New York that participated in the Archives of Surgery study, the nine doctors who had at some point played video games at least three hours per week made 37 percent fewer errors, performed 27 percent faster, and scored 42 percent better in the test of surgical skills than the 15 surgeons who had never played video games before.

So wait, are you suggesting fine-motor skills and hand-eye coordination are more essential traits for a successful surgeon than vocabulary and grammar?
Madness!

[4everwarriors]

I would rank correct decision making ability as a critical component. Intellect is a vital component of that, hey?

[Scoop Snoop]

I would rank correct decision making ability as a critical component. Intellect is a vital component of that, hey?

A surgeon whom I know personally once said something I never forgot. He was tired of listening to some of his fellow surgeons espousing various techniques and procedures and said " You want to know what makes a good surgeon? One who knows exactly what to do and in what order when something unexpected goes horribly wrong during the operation."

[MU82]

Among the growing list of universities and colleges that no longer require prospective students to take the SAT or ACT:

Chicago ... NYU ... Cornell ... Smith ... Cal (Berkley) ... George Washington ... Colorado College ... Hampshire ... Lawrence ... Reed.

Lots of dogs there. Those schools will never amount to anything.

And those are in addition to the hundreds that have temporarily dropped SAT or ACT requirements due to the pandemic, including 7 Ivy League schools. Some in academia believe many of those might decide to make the change permanent.

[GOO]

What is missing is that great doctors and surgeons work as part of teams and communicate. Some doctors think they are THE  man/women and work in silos.  It is not good if you want good outcomes. Things have gotten way to complex.

So, yes, the ability to write and communicate is an essential skill. You all are paying to much to surgical technique.  That is a small part of most surgery or other medical "systems" and outcomes.

I'm too lazy to look up Mayo and the cooperation required of their doctors and how they hire.  But central to it is the ability to work with others across the system, share info, etc. It is amazing if you've experienced the difference.   These doctors and others are THE man/women but act like regular dudes.   

[Newsdreams]

Great Puerto Rican Baseball Players:

1) Roberto Clemente
2) Nobody -- compared to the person Clemente was and the ballplayer he was, nobody measures up.
3) Yadi Molina
4) Orlando Cepeda
5) Jose Oquendo
6) Everyone else

OK, I'm thoroughly off topic but I had to address this. My Cardinal credentials are at stake!

Still against Pudge, hey? You dirty sick birds fan

[Galway Eagle]

What is missing is that great doctors and surgeons work as part of teams and communicate. Some doctors think they are THE  man/women and work in silos.  It is not good if you want good outcomes. Things have gotten way to complex.

So, yes, the ability to write and communicate is an essential skill. You all are paying to much to surgical technique.  That is a small part of most surgery or other medical "systems" and outcomes.

I'm too lazy to look up Mayo and the cooperation required of their doctors and how they hire.  But central to it is the ability to work with others across the system, share info, etc. It is amazing if you've experienced the difference.   These doctors and others are THE man/women but act like regular dudes.

Thirteen states don't offer standardized tests in Spanish. Do you think that those students forced to take those in English would be unable to effectively write or communicate or act like regular dudes in a primarily Spanish speaking community?

[Pakuni]

What is missing is that great doctors and surgeons work as part of teams and communicate. Some doctors think they are THE  man/women and work in silos.  It is not good if you want good outcomes. Things have gotten way to complex.

So, yes, the ability to write and communicate is an essential skill. You all are paying to much to surgical technique.  That is a small part of most surgery or other medical "systems" and outcomes.

I'm too lazy to look up Mayo and the cooperation required of their doctors and how they hire.  But central to it is the ability to work with others across the system, share info, etc. It is amazing if you've experienced the difference.   These doctors and others are THE man/women but act like regular dudes.

We agree. Traits like communication, cooperation, charisma, i.e. "people skills " are all really important.
However, these traits are measured not by intelligence, but by EQ. And, get this, there's no k own correlation between intelligence and EQ. In fact, research suggests that there's a negative relation between the two, i.e. people with the highest IQs tend to fare more poorly in areas like communication and cooperation.

So, while you're right about the importance of those abilities, if you're trying to link those abilities to some kind of standardized test of academic ability, you'd be mistaken.

[Pakuni]

I would rank correct decision making ability as a critical component. Intellect is a vital component of that, hey?

Good point.
Can you explain how a single standardized test taken as a teenager determines this differently and/or better than four years of high school, four years of undergrad, four years of medical school, five to seven years of residency and multi-day board exams?

[4everwarriors]

Its all part of the vetting process. I have no problem with it. Its a merit based system and as such, there shouldn't be any shortcuts or points given for style.
As Al said when the waiter brought his lobster that had only 1 claw, "bring me the winner of that fight," hey?