2021-22 NBA Thread: The Bucks are Reigning Champs

[Goose]

Doc,
Sounds like the shooting on Water and Juneau was pretty bad. That happened a few hours after the Deer District shooting. Rough night in downtown MKE.

[brewcity77]

Frustrated fans always point to the last guy on the bench and blame him for everything.
Once again, the Bucks shot 24 % from 3 point land. Tatum shot 7 for 15.
George Hill is not the issue.

So they need to shoot better and need Boston to shoot worse. I propose fewer minutes for the guys that combined to shoot 1/10 and more minutes for a defensive minded player that could help limit Boston's shooting. Your plan is...umm...make no changes and hope things go differently?

Bud's job is literally the opposite of just tipping his cap. Yes, you acknowledge Tatum's performance after the fact, but in the midst of it, his job is to do something to stop it. Continuing to run out Allen and Hill clearly wasn't the answer.

[The Sultan]

Bucks have 2 all NBA Defensive players plus Wes. Hardly traffic cones.
Tatum is a really good player who had an incredible night, on the road, with his team on the brink. Sometimes all you can do is tip your hat.

I get that. But Hill has been completely unproductive on both ends of the court all series. I think it is fair to question if Carter would be a more viable alternative out there.

[wadesworld]

The reality is that without Khris the Bucks are very limited in what they have available. The triple big lineup has been awful for the Bucks, so they need to go with a three guard lineup. Which means one of Pat, George, Grayson, or apparently Javon will always be in the game, and Wes and Jrue do need some rest so two of them will be in the game at times.

Javon Carter is at best 6'1". Tatum and Brown are 6'7"+. So whether it's Hill, Grayson, or Javon, you're just going to have to hope that those guys are missing shots at some point. The only real counter is to try to hide one of those guards on Grant Williams and scramble when they make him the screener, but that means Giannis probably isn't roaming, and with Bobby taking more of Brook's minutes that means the rim attack is wide open for Boston.

The fact that the Bucks have pushed this to a seventh game without Khris is a testament to Giannis's greatness. The reality is that without Khris Boston is just a better team.

[MuggsyB]

The reality is that without Khris the Bucks are very limited in what they have available. The triple big lineup has been awful for the Bucks, so they need to go with a three guard lineup. Which means one of Pat, George, Grayson, or apparently Javon will always be in the game, and Wes and Jrue do need some rest so two of them will be in the game at times.

Javon Carter is at best 6'1". Tatum and Brown are 6'7"+. So whether it's Hill, Grayson, or Javon, you're just going to have to hope that those guys are missing shots at some point. The only real counter is to try to hide one of those guards on Grant Williams and scramble when they make him the screener, but that means Giannis probably isn't roaming, and with Bobby taking more of Brook's minutes that means the rim attack is wide open for Boston.

The fact that the Bucks have pushed this to a seventh game without Khris is a testament to Giannis's greatness. The reality is that without Khris Boston is just a better team.

That may be the case but Carter's quickness is superior to Allen and Hill.  Tatum and Brown can shoot over him but they can't blow by him at will which puts the defense on skates.

[cheebs09]

That may be the case but Carter's quickness is superior to Allen and Hill.  Tatum and Brown can shoot over him but they can't blow by him at will which puts the defense on skates.

Plus, at this point, I think we've already established Hill isn't the answer. Worst case you give Carter a few minutes and go back to Allen.

[wadesworld]

That may be the case but Carter's quickness is superior to Allen and Hill.  Tatum and Brown can shoot over him but they can't blow by him at will which puts the defense on skates.

Maybe. But Tatum and Brown have 6+ inches and a lot of pounds in Carter.

Look, if you're looking for Javon Carter to save your season, your season is probably in trouble. There's a reason he saw like 3 minutes in the NBA Finals for Phoenix last year. There's a reason the Nets cut him this year. He's not someone you want playing minutes for you when your season is on the line.

[MuggsyB]

So they need to shoot better and need Boston to shoot worse. I propose fewer minutes for the guys that combined to shoot 1/10 and more minutes for a defensive minded player that could help limit Boston's shooting. Your plan is...umm...make no changes and hope things go differently?

Bud's job is literally the opposite of just tipping his cap. Yes, you acknowledge Tatum's performance after the fact, but in the midst of it, his job is to do something to stop it. Continuing to run out Allen and Hill clearly wasn't the answer.

Part of the problem defensively last night was that Giannis got into foul trouble.  He's not only their best rim protector but the best option to guard Tatum on the perimeter.  The bigger issue last night is that Smart went bananas in the first half and the Bucks never really recovered.  They made a run before Tatum slammed the door but they played from behind all game.

Without Middleton, Holiday's offense and overall 3pt shooting has to be better and more efficient for the Bucks to win imo.   The Bucks have had a few stretches but overall have not shot well from the perimeter.  And when Giannis gets cheap fouls and into foul trouble it changes both sides of the ball.  Connaughton has been great but it's really hard to win when you start two perimeter players that aren't scoring the ball and a 5 who hasn't been able to hit anything but a chippie. 

[cheebs09]

Maybe. But Tatum and Brown have 6+ inches and a lot of pounds in Carter.

Look, if you're looking for Javon Carter to save your season, your season is probably in trouble. There's a reason he saw like 3 minutes in the NBA Finals for Phoenix last year. There's a reason the Nets cut him this year. He's not someone you want playing minutes for you when your season is on the line.

I don't think anyone is looking for Carter to save the season. This series has been pretty equally matched. I think it's possible Carter is less of a negative than Hill, so it's worth it in case that tips the scales the Bucks way.

[wadesworld]

I don't think anyone is looking for Carter to save the season. This series has been pretty equally matched. I think it's possible Carter is less of a negative than Hill, so it's worth it in case that tips the scales the Bucks way.

The C's are +27 for the series, and that was with the Bucks punching them in the mouth game 1. The C's have been (and are) the better team without Khris. They've had double digit leads in the fourth quarter of each of the last 3 games. It's simply going to come down to can Giannis outplay the entire C's team. The fact that he's out the Bucks on his back for 3 wins against maybe the best team in the NBA (if it isn't the Bucks when healthy) is pretty insane.

[MuggsyB]

I don't think anyone is looking for Carter to save the season. This series has been pretty equally matched. I think it's possible Carter is less of a negative than Hill, so it's worth it in case that tips the scales the Bucks way.

Cheebs, I think we can all agree Hill has been an abomination.  There is no reason known to man why he played 19 mins yesterday or throughout this series  It really infuriated me when it was clear as crystal he shouldn't be on the floor.  I mean maybe you see what he does for a 4-5 min stretch but 19 mins?  Inexplicable.  You have to adapt and there's no reason not to give Carter or even Nwora some of his time.

[Merit Matters]

Doc,
Sounds like the shooting on Water and Juneau was pretty bad. That happened a few hours after the Deer District shooting. Rough night in downtown MKE.

Aw come on they were just having fun. They dindu nuffin, ay?

[Goose]

Merit

Nothing to see here. Maybe 82 can link last night's events back to the abortion ruling and liven up the thread. Sadly, his last contribution on the topic is in a locked thread after 14 posts.

[BM1090]

Take it elsewhere.

[Goose]

BM

You are correct and I will take it over to the bashing dentist thread. Go BUCKS!!!

[brewcity77]

Part of the problem defensively last night was that Giannis got into foul trouble.  He's not only their best rim protector but the best option to guard Tatum on the perimeter.  The bigger issue last night is that Smart went bananas in the first half and the Bucks never really recovered.  They made a run before Tatum slammed the door but they played from behind all game.

Without Middleton, Holiday's offense and overall 3pt shooting has to be better and more efficient for the Bucks to win imo.   The Bucks have had a few stretches but overall have not shot well from the perimeter.  And when Giannis gets cheap fouls and into foul trouble it changes both sides of the ball.  Connaughton has been great but it's really hard to win when you start two perimeter players that aren't scoring the ball and a 5 who hasn't been able to hit anything but a chippie.

My issue was more that when Allen and Hill are giving you nothing on offense, they're giving you nothing. At some point, it should become obvious that you need to try something else. Clearly you live and die with as much Giannis, Jrue, Wes, Bobby, Brook, and Pat as you can get right now, but those other two are getting double digit minutes every night, are mediocre on defense, and 8/29 from the floor the past 4 games.

Carter or other bench options might not be the answer, but when it's clear those two aren't hitting shots and you spend most of the night down double digits, feels like you have to try something.

[The Sultan]

Still wish they wouldn't have pulled the trigger on the Ibaka trade.  Dante has had as great of an impact on this series as Serge.

[brewcity77]

Still wish they wouldn't have pulled the trigger on the Ibaka trade.  Dante has had as great of an impact on this series as Serge.

Agreed. Bucks would've taken this in 5 with Donte still on the team.

[Uncle Rico]

Agreed. Bucks would've taken this in 5 with Donte still on the team.

Yeah, I don't know about that

[cheebs09]

Yeah, I don't know about that

Yea, I think there's a bit of overrating what Donte was bringing to the table this year. Although, the return they got for him could have been better. I get the Brook insurance, but Ibaka looks done.

[forgetful]

Well, for one thing, back then LeBron was a very good defensive player.

Thank you for the reply. I did think of that, but Lebron's first couple years in the league he actually rated as an average to below average defender (big jump to a significantly above average defender in year 4).

Compared to league averages, Doncic rates as an average, to slightly above average defender. So compared to league averages, with the exception of year 4 they are comparable.

But both by the eye test and the stats, Lebron was the better defender.

What I was more confused by was the offensive end. Where Doncic is the clearly better player for the first 4 years from a regular statistics standpoint. But for advanced stats like Offensive Win Shares, Lebron is head and shoulder statistically higher, which doesn't seem to make sense.

As an example:

In Lebron's 3rd year he averaged 26.5 ppg, 6 rpg, and 5.6 apg, TS%=56.8%: OWS=12.0
In Doncic's 3rd year he averaged : 27.7 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 8.6 apg, TS%=58.7%: but OWS=5.1

I was looking at these because I was curious how many players have been so successful from a statistics standpoint at such a young age (they both started at 19 years old. So did Durant but his apg numbers are decidedly lower). My intuition based on the raw stats was that Doncic's overall advanced stats would be higher than Hebron's, but they are drastically lower.

I'm not well versed in the advanced stats, and know many on here are so was wondering what leads to the discrepancy.

[The Sultan]

Yea, I think there's a bit of overrating what Donte was bringing to the table this year. Although, the return they got for him could have been better. I get the Brook insurance, but Ibaka looks done.

He couldn't be any worse than Allen or Hill.

[cheebs09]

He couldn't be any worse than Allen or Hill.

Agreed. I just don't think that he's the difference to be able to say Bucks win this in 5.

[BM1090]

Donte is bad defensively and an inconsistent shooter. He would have been another body in this series but I don't think he'd have any more impact than Allen.

[MuggsyB]

Donte is bad defensively and an inconsistent shooter. He would have been another body in this series but I don't think he'd have any more impact than Allen.

Allen had two big games against Chicago.  He is capable but has been brutal vs Boston.