2021-22 NBA Thread: The Bucks are Reigning Champs

[PGsHeroes32]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_kvy6ssNVs

Not sure how that video applies to the bolded

[wadesworld]

The only worry about the Sixers is that they'll shatter NBA records for free throw attempts.

[PGsHeroes32]

Honestly, these are the lamest of arguments.
First it's "If you disagree with me, you must not watch the NBA."
Then it's "If you disagree with me, I can't help you."
And now it's "Everyone agrees with me in my imaginary poll of every single person in the NBA, so I'm right."
The equivalent of "because I said so."

Thats because it isnt an arugment. Its a simple fact of you are wrong, and no one with an inkling of basketball knowledge would die on that hill with you.

There isn't any other way to put it. Kyrie Irving is elite at shooting and scoring the basketball

[Pakuni]

Thats because it isnt an arugment. Its a simple fact of you are wrong, and no one with an inkling of basketball knowledge would die on that hill with you.

There isn't any other way to put it.]Kyrie Irving is elite at shooting and scoring the basketball

The goalposts are moving, I see.
Anyhow, I've supported my point of view with all kinds of data, of which you are free to agree or disagree support my case.
You've supported yours with childish declarations of being right and nothing else.
I'll look forward to seeing the results of your survey of every single NBA player, coach and executive.

[JWags85]

I do not consider Kyrie an elite 3-point shooter for several reasons, including 1) His career average* 2) He's only been among the league's 10 best once in an 10-year career, and he's been outside the top 20 in 9 of those 11 seasons.** and 3) A relatively small percentage of his shots are from distance***

He's been over 40% in 4 of the last 5 seasons since he was in the top 10. He's within a 1-1.5%, give or take each season.  Its not like he's shooting 36% to the leaders 44%.

And then you look at the list, at how many are the primary scoring options on their respective teams, as opposed to guys like Joe Harris or Doug McDermott?  Not many, which is not moving goalposts, its extremely relevant to shots taken, defensive pressure/focus received, etc...

I'll get back to "small percentage"

* Someone pointed out that Kyrie's career percentage ranks him 74th all time, which sounds impressive until you see who the 10 just ahead of him:
Tyronn Lue
Patty Mills
Bogdan Bogdanovich
Danny Ferry
Bruce Bowen
Jared Dudley
Khris Middleton
Darren Collinson
Tony Snell
Hersey Hawkins
Which of these players do you consider "elite" at shooting? Not good. Not solid. Eiite.

** How can a guy be elite when he's not consistently among the best of his peers? What does elite even mean then?

I would consider Khris Middleton to be an elite shooter.  Anyone who puts up a 40/50/90 regular season is an elite shooter, period.  Speaking of, Kyrie is one of only 8 players to ever do it for a full season, including playoffs.

But regardless. None of those guys above him, save Mills and Bogdan and Middleton, took more than 2.5 3s a game for their career.  Kyrie is shooting that average on more than 6 attempts a game over most of his career.

Also, going 1 farther on that list, less than half a percent in career average higher...Reggie Miller.  Do you consider Reggie Miller an elite shooter?

*** 46.4% of Kyrie's career shots have come from 16 feet or beyond.
Compare that with some other "elite" shooters:
Steph Curry - 66.7%
Seth Curry - 69.1%
Klay Thompson - 64.5%
Joe Ingles - 70.5%
Zach LaVine - 52.2%
Damian Lilliard - 57%

I can throw in more, but hopefully you get the drift. I have a hard time arguing that a gjuy who takes the majority of his shots inside 15 feet - and more than 40% inside 10 feet - to be an elite shooter. He's an elite scorer, for sure, but not shooter.

But he still takes more 3s a game than all but Klay Thompson, Steph Curry, and Lillard, Lavine is comparable now.

He has a more rounded scorers game than more specialized shooters, sure, but when a guy is still taking 6+ 3s a game, I have a hard time seeing that he's not shooting from deep enough to be considered.

Hell, Durant's career 3P% is lower than Kyrie, he's had more seasons under 40% from 3, and I think his percentage from 16 feet is probably pretty comparable to Kyrie.  By your established metrics, Durant isn't an elite shooter.  If you say "nope, elite scorer, not shooter" then so be it, agree to disagree.

Could you point out some advanced stats that make the case for Kyrie being an elite shooter?

His true shooting percentage is top 5 among active guards, basically tied with Trae Young, in front of Klay, Lavine, George Hill, and others.

[Pakuni]

His true shooting percentage is top 5 among active guards, basically tied with Trae Young, in front of Klay, Lavine, George Hill, and others.

TS% incorporates two-point shots and free throws. Kyrie is a ridiculous finisher around the rim and a career 88% FT shooter, which boosts this metric for him.

[JWags85]

TS% incorporates two-point shots and free throws. Kyrie is a ridiculous finisher around the rim and a career 88% FT shooter, which boosts this metric for him.

Sure but its also a metric that takes more than just simple shots attempts and makes into consideration.

You have your mind made up and your data points to support your opinion.  Which is totally fine, not like you're saying he's a bum.  But its not just empty conjecture and qualitative statements that support that Kyrie shoots the ball very very well and that being said, its not absurd to think he'd be a quite capable 42-44% catch and shoot, spot up shooter if he floated on the wings for looks like Seth Curry or Joe Harris.

Still legit curious about Durant and Reggie Miller though based on what I said.

[PGsHeroes32]

The goalposts are moving, I see.
Anyhow, I've supported my point of view with all kinds of data, of which you are free to agree or disagree support my case.
You've supported yours with childish declarations of being right and nothing else.
I'll look forward to seeing the results of your survey of every single NBA player, coach and executive.

I havent moved any goal posts. I called him an elite shooter.

You like someone who just started watching basketball would say, simply quoted 3 point % and thats it. Again, i cannot help you if thats all your simple mind willl allow you to go to.

Steve Novak>>Steph Curry at shooting. Steph Curry is little brother when it comes to shooting.

Your logic, not mine.

[MuggsyB]

Uhhhh....Doncic just dropped 28pts in the 1st quarter.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Uhhhh....Doncic just dropped 28pts in the 1st quarter.

Serge leaves and there goes Clipper defense.

[Pakuni]

I havent moved any goal posts. I called him an elite shooter.

You like someone who just started watching basketball would say, simply quoted 3 point % and thats it. Again, i cannot help you if thats all your simple mind willl allow you to go to.

Steve Novak>>Steph Curry at shooting. Steph Curry is little brother when it comes to shooting.

Your logic, not mine.

Not my logic, but whatever.  Nobody is changing anyone's mind.
That said, get back to us when your survey results are in.

[wadesworld]

Suns playing Playoff basketball. Bucks playing Lindell Wiggington.

[MuggsyB]

The Suns are clearly the favorites to win the chip.  Maybe the Bucks can get there with Lopez but right now the Suns are just better and deeper on both ends of the floor. 

[JWags85]

The Suns are clearly the favorites to win the chip.  Maybe the Bucks can get there with Lopez but right now the Suns are just better and deeper on both ends of the floor.

I don’t even know if the Suns are the favs in the West.  They have the best record but they lost 2 of 3 to the Warriors, and their one win was on an very uncharacteristically bad night for Curry.  They’ve also not played the Warriors since Klay came back

[MuggsyB]

I don’t even know if the Suns are the favs in the West.  They have the best record but they lost 2 of 3 to the Warriors, and their one win was on an very uncharacteristically bad night for Curry.  They’ve also not played the Warriors since Klay came back

I think Ayton and Bridges have gotten better and they just have more ways to beat you than the Dubs.  In the East I think it's pretty wide open.  The Bucks are not the same defensively and I don't think Middleton has been as good this year. 

[wadesworld]

The Suns are clearly the favorites to win the chip.  Maybe the Bucks can get there with Lopez but right now the Suns are just better and deeper on both ends of the floor.

The Bucks played the same defense they played in games 1 and 2 of the Finals last year. If this game meant more, they would not have played that defense, and would not have been playing Lindell Wiggington.

It’s always come down to Brook for the Bucks. If he’s 90%+ of what he was, I wouldn’t pick any team in the league over them. If he’s not, I wouldn’t pick them to make an ECF.

[PGsHeroes32]

I don’t even know if the Suns are the favs in the West.  They have the best record but they lost 2 of 3 to the Warriors, and their one win was on an very uncharacteristically bad night for Curry.  They’ve also not played the Warriors since Klay came back

One of the Suns losses to the Warriors was in Golden State on a back to back as well though. Warriors were not on a back to back.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Let's not place too much on a regular season game regardless.  The Bucks were on the last night of a four game west coast trip.  They went 3-1 on that trip.

[GB Warrior]

The Suns are probably the best team in the NBA, but as we've seen, that doesn't mean they're coming out of the West. But they look better and more technically sound than last year. Yes, the Bucks did not treat this like a Finals game, but that doesn't mean it means nothing. You can see the impact of not being able to play drop defense (one reason Ibaka is so important), and you can bet that the Suns wouldn't lean on Paul to bring the ball 90 feet like they did in games 3 & 4 if Jrue is going to be hounding him. If the Suns adjusted sooner, the Bucks may not have won the whole thing.

The Bucks aren't as good as they were last year (at least right now), but they have a MUCH easier road out of the East than the Suns do the West. That probably puts them about even in terms of title odds, but doesn't mean they're playing at the same level as the Suns.

[MU82]

I dunno. The East looks tougher than the West this season.

[MU82]

Just saw this in The Athletic:

Milwaukee Bucks shooting guard Pat Connaughton fractured his right fourth metacarpal in Thursday night's 131-107 loss to the Phoenix Suns. Connaughton, who shoots right-handed, exited in the third quarter and was later ruled out for the remainder of the game with the injury.

"We're trying to figure out who will see him next, what the next step is," Bucks coach Mike Budenholzer said after the game. "Unfortunate, but I think we're hopeful that he'll be able to return. ... When that is, not exactly sure. But we'll see."

The injury occurred while Connaughton was defending Chris Paul on a drive to the rim, eventually fouling the Suns point guard with 3:40 remaining in the third quarter. Following the play, Connaughton was seen attending to that right hand and headed to the locker room while holding it.

The news comes hours after the Bucks lost depth at his position, trading Donte DiVincenzo to the Sacramento Kings as part of a four-team deal also involving the Detroit Pistons and Los Angeles Clippers. DiVincenzo, Milwaukee's first-round pick in 2018, was averaging 7.2 points per game in 17 appearances this year.

Connaughton is having a career season, averaging 10.2 points, 4.4 rebounds and 1.2 assists in 27.2 minutes per game. The Bucks are 35-21 on the season, sitting at second in the Eastern Conference.

[4everwarriors]

The Bucks can call me. One of my friends is a top hand surgeon in MKE. I can get Pat an appointment as soon as the Bucks land at Mitchell, hey?

[JWags85]

One of the Suns losses to the Warriors was in Golden State on a back to back as well though. Warriors were not on a back to back.

That’s fine, I’m not saying the Warriors are definitively better either.  I’m just saying it’s probably a flip at this point and wouldn’t crown the Suns as favs, conference or league

[MuggsyB]

The Bucks can call me. One of my friends is a top hand surgeon in MKE. I can get Pat an appointment as soon as the Bucks land at Mitchell, hey?

Hand surgeons are ridiculously talented.  Your friend must have some serious skills. 

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

The East could be wild. We have no idea how Harden meshes in Philly or what the Nets will look like with Simmons.  But man, oh man, do I want to see a Sixers vs Nets series!

But I'm not sure either team can beat the Bucks.  Harden has his lowest O rating since his rookie year. Still a solid 111, but not in the 120 range of his prime.  Can Harden regain his elite form by the playoffs?  I don't think that's a given.

And for the Nets, we will have to wait and see 1) when Simmons returns, 2) how long it takes him to return to peak form, and 3) how he meshes with the roster, especially with Kyrie.  Again, it's not a given that the Nets reach championship form by the playoffs.

I really think either the Bucks or Heat come out of the East. The Bulls are this year's version of the Hawks. Sure they could win a playoff series, maybe even make the ECF, but I don't see them making the Finals.

The Cavs have an elite defense, but I don't think they have enough offense to make the Finals.

But there are also some dangerous lower seeds in the East.  The Celtics, Hornets, and Hawks all have the talent to make life difficult in the 1st round.  Should be a fun playoffs!