2021-22 NBA Thread: The Bucks are Reigning Champs

[Pakuni]

Mills, Curry, Irving, Durant......Harris if he ever returns.

You and I have very different definitions of "elite," I guess.

Patty Mills is a career 39% shooter from three who has one year - in 13 seasons - in the top 10 in 3FG percentage, and two others in the top 20. Can you be elite if you're not even in the top 20 in 10 of your 13 seasons?
Exactly how many "elite" shooters do you think there are?

Irving also is a 39% three-point shooter who's had one season in the top 10 and one more in the top 20. So, in two of 11 seasons, he's been in the top 20.
This, again, is not elite as I see it.

Curry and Harris are excellent shooters, but super limited at everything else. You can't have both on the court at the same time.

[MU82]

Big-name trades are always interesting, but it's not very common to see two names like this get traded for each other at all, let alone in-season.

Assuming Harden isn't really hurt and that he plays balls to the wall from here on out, it's hard for me to think the Sixers didn't "win" this trade for this season. They now have Harden, Embiid, Maxey, Harris, Thybulle and a few decent bench/role players. That will be formidable if everybody stays healthy. If they win the title - big if - any of the pain that could come in future years will have been worth it.

And maybe Harden's next deal is more along the lines of the huge-money 2- or 3-year deals that a lot of stars sign rather than a 5-year.

Curry can go off occasionally ... but he's also very streaky. He's averaged 8 ppg on 31% shooting since the middle of January. He ain't Steph. And Simmons hasn't played in so long, it's hard to know what to expect from him.

This could be good for the Nets, too, if Simmons can get up to speed by the playoffs, and if Durant is healthy, and if Kyrie gets vaccinated. Lots of ifs.

Down the line, who knows? Those draft picks could be worth something or next to nothing, and we'll see how Harden ages and how good Simmons can be.

This is fun stuff!

[MuggsyB]

Would you try to pick-up Dragic if you were the Bucks?

[PGsHeroes32]

You and I have very different definitions of "elite," I guess.

Patty Mills is a career 39% shooter from three who has one year - in 13 seasons - in the top 10 in 3FG percentage, and two others in the top 20. Can you be elite if you're not even in the top 20 in 10 of your 13 seasons?
Exactly how many "elite" shooters do you think there are?

Irving also is a 39% three-point shooter who's had one season in the top 10 and one more in the top 20. So, in two of 11 seasons, he's been in the top 20.
This, again, is not elite as I see it.

Curry and Harris are excellent shooters, but super limited at everything else. You can't have both on the court at the same time.

Honestly career wise elite is a bit strong for Mills. Hes very good. And does the job of the overall presmise. Keep teams from sagging off Simmons.

But yeah, we definitely have differing defintions of elite if you are going to cherry pick how you judge guys. So Curry and Harris cant do much else...but Kyrie gets dinged??

You do realize that 39% lifetime from 3 for a player like Kyrie who takes shots like Kyrie is absoltuely elite right?? And thats the whole idea. You have Simmons surrounded by a player like Kyrie who can make video game 3s, along side spot up shooters. Boom.

Kyrie and Durant could shoot Seth Curry % from 3.....if they had no other game and just sat an caught 3s as well.

Kyrie Irving is absolutely an elite shooter. Hes not Steph Curry who can do it off the bounce and be the best of all time. But hes elite. Hes better then just about every single other superstar that takes high degree of difficulty shots.

[Pakuni]

Honestly career wise elite is a bit strong for Mills. Hes very good. And does the job of the overall presmise. Keep teams from sagging off Simmons.

But yeah, we definitely have differing defintions of elite if you are going to cherry pick how you judge guys. So Curry and Harris cant do much else...but Kyrie gets dinged??

You do realize that 39% lifetime from 3 for a player like Kyrie who takes shots like Kyrie is absoltuely elite right?? And thats the whole idea. You have Simmons surrounded by a player like Kyrie who can make video game 3s, along side spot up shooters. Boom.

I'm not cherry-picking. I'm using data.
So your position here is that Kyrie's not-elite shooting actually is elite because he takes bad shots?

But yes, Simmons will be a better fit for the Nets because he's surrounded by four 39% or better three-point shooters .... exactly like he was in Philly last year (Curry, Danny Green, Tobias Harris, George Hill).

[Jockey]

I'm not cherry-picking. I'm using data.
So your position here is that Kyrie's not-elite shooting actually is elite because he takes bad shots?

But yes, Simmons will be a better fit for the Nets because he's surrounded by four 39% or better three-point shooters .... exactly like he was in Philly last year (Curry, Danny Green, Tobias Harris, George Hill).

You made a good argument until you insinuate the four 39% shooters in Philly = the four 39% shooters for the Nets.

And, yes, I get that wasn’t your point, but it kinda shot down the argument.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Sure, except Embiid is up for a super max deal at the end of next season as well. The 2023 season is going to be me/you/Fluff/Embiid/Harden on the floor for the Sixers. I'll come around and say if the Sixers can win a title and get to the Finals next year too, it's worth the Harden tax down the road. I just have major concerns about Harden coming up.

If you stick me in a corner, I can hit the three.  My defense is best described as "Joey-esque."

[PGsHeroes32]

I'm not cherry-picking. I'm using data.
So your position here is that Kyrie's not-elite shooting actually is elite because he takes bad shots?

But yes, Simmons will be a better fit for the Nets because he's surrounded by four 39% or better three-point shooters .... exactly like he was in Philly last year (Curry, Danny Green, Tobias Harris, George Hill).

No im saying hes an elite shooter because he has the ability to get off more shots at a higher difficulty and on his own and still make them at a 39% clip. If you cant grasp that I truly dont think you can be helped.

Again, Kyrie is better than just about every other ball dominat superstar not named Steph from 3.

And now you are cherry picking. Tobias Harris is 36.4% for his career. But now use 1 year of his while discrediting Mills at 42.4% this year and calling him 39%.

Lets find some consistency

[MU82]

Obviously, much smaller deal, but the Hornets traded for Montrezl Harrell from the Wizards. Gave up very little: the well-traveled Ish Smith, G League center Vernon Carey and a 2nd-rounder.

They desperately needed rebounding, rim-protection and toughness, and when he is engaged Harrell provides all of that. He absolutely killed the Hornets earlier this season, relentlessly going after the ball and finishing with 24-18.

Hopefully he'll be motivated to play his best for the rest of this year at least, because the Hornets' once-promising season has gone into the crapper.

[GB Warrior]

Congrats to the Nets, they now have one guy that wants to play defense.

[BM1090]

No im saying hes an elite shooter because he has the ability to get off more shots at a higher difficulty and on his own and still make them at a 39% clip. If you cant grasp that I truly dont think you can be helped.

Again, Kyrie is better than just about every other ball dominat superstar not named Steph from 3.

And now you are cherry picking. Tobias Harris is 36.4% for his career. But now use 1 year of his while discrediting Mills at 42.4% this year and calling him 39%.

Lets find some consistency

I haven't watched enough of Mills to know either way, but Kyrie is absolutely an elite shooter. Percentage is meaningless without factoring in volume and shot creation. Especially in the playoffs.

[PGsHeroes32]

I haven't watched enough of Mills to know either way, but Kyrie is absolutely an elite shooter. Percentage is meaningless without factoring in volume and shot creation. Especially in the playoffs.

Yeah its insane to say that kyrie isnt elite

He could sit and drill 44% catch and shoot 3s in his sleep if he wanted to. But that would deminish his value as an all around shot maker and player

[BM1090]

Yeah its insane to say that kyrie isnt elite

He could sit and drill 44% catch and shoot 3s in his sleep if he wanted to. But that would deminish his value as an all around shot maker and player

Not to mention there are only 50 guys in NBA history who shot 40% on 3s in their career. 39.1% on 6 attempts per game is absurdly good without even factoring in degree of difficulty.

Mills is at 39.2% for his career at almost five attempts per game. 6.7 attempts per game over the last three years. He shoots off the dribble a ton as well.

Even if we only use percentage, Mills and Kyrie rank 72nd and 74th all time.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fg3_pct_career.html

[Pakuni]

If you cant grasp that I truly dont think you can be helped.

Sigh ... OK.

And now you are cherry picking. Tobias Harris is 36.4% for his career. But now use 1 year of his while discrediting Mills at 42.4% this year and calling him 39%.

Lets find some consistency

I'm entirely consistent. I said Simmons with the Nets will be surrounded by four 39% or better shooters, just as he was last year with the Sixers. I'm no math whiz, but doesn't 42% qualify as "39% or better"?

[PGsHeroes32]

Not to mention there are only 50 guys in NBA history who shot 40% on 3s in their career. 39.1% on 6 attempts per game is absurdly good without even factoring in degree of difficulty.

Mills is at 39.2% for his career at almost five attempts per game. 6.7 attempts per game over the last three years. He shoots off the dribble a ton as well.

Even if we only use percentage, Mills and Kyrie rank 72nd and 74th all time.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fg3_pct_career.html

Yup Mills isnt a complete catch and shoot guy.

And when I said the Nets had shooters that doesnt just mean 3 pt shooters. Durant can knock down shots from anywhere at a better rate than Harris or Embiid could ever dream of.

So thats part of the point. Simmons will now have spacing in the playoffs because teams know that Kyrie and Durant can get any shot they want. Curry is as good as they get catch and shoot(Harris too if available) and Mills is a collect of both getting his own shot and spotting up.

Simmons will play small ball 5 at times and be surrounded by Curry/Mills/Durant/Kyrie at moments through a game.

[PGsHeroes32]

Sigh ... OK.

I'm entirely consistent. I said Simmons with the Nets will be surrounded by four 39% or better shooters, just as he was last year with the Sixers. I'm no math whiz, but doesn't 42% qualify as "39% or better"?

There is no consistency youre jumping between career and season to season averages.

Kyrie Irving is an elite shooter. I can say with confidence that every single person invovled in the NBA...executive, player or coach would agree with that statement. Every single one.

[cheebs09]

Would you try to pick-up Dragic if you were the Bucks?

He’d be a nice pickup but the general thought seems to be he’s going to Dallas with Doncic.

[Pakuni]

There is no consistency youre jumping between career and season to season averages.

Kyrie Irving is an elite shooter. I can say with confidence that every single person invovled in the NBA...executive, player or coach would agree with that statement. Every single one.

Honestly, these are the lamest of arguments.
First it's "If you disagree with me, you must not watch the NBA."
Then it's "If you disagree with me, I can't help you."
And now it's "Everyone agrees with me in my imaginary poll of every single person in the NBA, so I'm right."
The equivalent of "because I said so."

[GB Warrior]

Yup Mills isnt a complete catch and shoot guy.

And when I said the Nets had shooters that doesnt just mean 3 pt shooters. Durant can knock down shots from anywhere at a better rate than Harris or Embiid could ever dream of.

So thats part of the point. Simmons will now have spacing in the playoffs because teams know that Kyrie and Durant can get any shot they want. Curry is as good as they get catch and shoot(Harris too if available) and Mills is a collect of both getting his own shot and spotting up.

Simmons will play small ball 5 at times and be surrounded by Curry/Mills/Durant/Kyrie at moments through a game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_kvy6ssNVs

[JWags85]

Honestly, these are the lamest of arguments.
First it's "If you disagree with me, you must not watch the NBA."
Then it's "If you disagree with me, I can't help you."
And now it's "Everyone agrees with me in my imaginary poll of every single person in the NBA, so I'm right."
The equivalent of "because I said so."

Then boil it down, are you saying...

1) Kyrie is not an elite shooter?  Because his career 3P% is less than 40%?

2) Kyrie and Mills are no better than the guys he had around him shooting wise last year?  Aka Harris and George Hill

While I respect stats, non-advanced stats, like 3P% don't exactly take situations, roster, and system into account and can be lacking.

[4everwarriors]

Would you try to pick-up Dragic if you were the Bucks?

He ain't cummin' heer, hey?

[wadesworld]

I do think this really, really helps the Bucks in terms of matching up defensively with these teams.  Before you had to worry about who guards the "other" guard that Jrue isn't guarding in the Nets matchup.  You had to decide who Donte could match up better with, Harden or Kyrie.  Now you can have Jrue solely on Kyrie, Grayson can run around the perimeter with Patty or Seth, Khris gets KD (I believe I saw some article that said Khris had the best defensive numbers of any defender on KD last year?) with Giannis roaming off of Simmons, and Brook plays their big.  If they go small then Pat chases around the other of Patty or Seth and Brook goes to the bench, or Giannis gets KD, Khris chases around the other perimeter player, and Brook plays Simmons and punishes them on the other end.  Brook can even play if the Nets go small and have KD/Simmons as their 5.  Giannis gets the KD matchup, Brook just ignores Simmons defensively and roams, and then the Bucks absolutely punish the fact that those are their "bigs" on the other end of the court.

Sixers it's Jrue on Harden, Brook on Embiid, Khris on Simmons, Giannis on Thybulle and roams, Grayson/Pat on Maxey.

[Pakuni]

1) Kyrie is not an elite shooter?  Because his career 3P% is less than 40%?

I do not consider Kyrie an elite 3-point shooter for several reasons, including 1) His career average* 2) He's only been among the league's 10 best once in an 10-year career, and he's been outside the top 20 in 9 of those 11 seasons.** and 3) A relatively small percentage of his shots are from distance***

* Someone pointed out that Kyrie's career percentage ranks him 74th all time, which sounds impressive until you see who the 10 just ahead of him:
Tyronn Lue
Patty Mills
Bogdan Bogdanovich
Danny Ferry
Bruce Bowen
Jared Dudley
Khris Middleton
Darren Collinson
Tony Snell
Hersey Hawkins
Which of these players do you consider "elite" at shooting? Not good. Not solid. Eiite.

** How can a guy be elite when he's not consistently among the best of his peers? What does elite even mean then?

*** 46.4% of Kyrie's career shots have come from 16 feet or beyond.
Compare that with some other "elite" shooters:
Steph Curry - 66.7%
Seth Curry - 69.1%
Klay Thompson - 64.5%
Joe Ingles - 70.5%
Zach LaVine - 52.2%
Damian Lilliard - 57%

I can throw in more, but hopefully you get the drift. I have a hard time arguing that a gjuy who takes the majority of his shots inside 15 feet - and more than 40% inside 10 feet - to be an elite shooter. He's an elite scorer, for sure, but not shooter.

2) Kyrie and Mills are no better than the guys he had around him shooting wise last year?  Aka Harris and George Hill

Nope, not what I said at all.

While I respect stats, non-advanced stats, like 3P% don't exactly take situations, roster, and system into account and can be lacking.

Could you point out some advanced stats that make the case for Kyrie being an elite shooter?

[reinko]

Kyrie can’t be elite this year if he is only playing in 1/2 the games.  Yeah, it’s a dumb bar argument, but it’s the truth.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Kyrie can’t be elite this year if he is only playing in 1/2 the games.  Yeah, it’s a dumb bar argument, but it’s the truth.

Just a guess, but I think NYC will lift their order preventing his participation in Brooklyn by the time the playoffs start.