2021-22 NBA Thread: The Bucks are Reigning Champs

[Skatastrophy]

Someone else having a nice third year: Jalen Brunson. He fell off my radar but he was a lot of fun to watch last night, driving hard and making tough shots in the lane. Probably helps that he absolutely went off against the Heat.

Gotta root for those Big East guys

[wadesworld]

Stolen from the twitterverse:

Career NBA Finals Appearances:
Tyler Herro 1
Luka Doncic 0
Trae Young 0

And Robert Horry is a top 10 player of all time.

[pbiflyer]

Someone else having a nice third year: Jalen Brunson. He fell off my radar but he was a lot of fun to watch last night, driving hard and making tough shots in the lane. Probably helps that he absolutely went off against the Heat.

Gotta root for those Big East guys

That caught me by surprise to. Was watching initially without sound. I was like, who is that guy????? Yeah, hard to cheer against Nova guys. Some of the other BEast players however......

[MU82]

Herro is a talented kid. Let’s see what he does over the course of an extended length of time.

Lots of young guys who might not be considered top 100 are having very good early seasons.

For example, folks should go to the googles and check out what Miles Bridges has been doing.

[forgetful]

And Robert Horry is a top 10 player of all time.

You want to talk about elite players all time. Gene Guarilia won an NBA championship every single season he played. Went 4 for 4. It took Lebron 16 seasons to match him.

[MuggsyB]

Durant is the most unguardable player I have seen in my lifetime.  I'm not sure where you slot him historically but as a pure scorer?  I think he may be #1.  Remember he's always played on teams with other stars and players that take a bunch of shots.  Truthfully, I think he could average 50 in his sleep if he was a high volume shooter.  There's literally no way to guard the guy and what's crazier is he doesn't really dominate the paint.  He gets any shot he wants at will so when he has a bad game it's simply a bad shooting night for him. 

[🏀]

Durant is the most unguardable player I have seen in my lifetime.  I'm not sure where you slot him historically but as a pure scorer?  I think he may be #1.  Remember he's always played on teams with other stars and players that take a bunch of shots.  Truthfully, I think he could average 50 in his sleep if he was a high volume shooter.  There's literally no way to guard the guy and what's crazier is he doesn't really dominate the paint.  He gets any shot he wants at will so when he has a bad game it's simply a bad shooting night for him. 

Throw a taller guard with fast hands straight up on Durant. He will get some, but not enough. Limit his ability to pass out of that, you’ll win a series.

[MU82]

Durant is the most unguardable player I have seen in my lifetime.  I'm not sure where you slot him historically but as a pure scorer?  I think he may be #1. 

That Jordan kid was pretty good. Never needed a "load management" game off, either.

[MuggsyB]

That Jordan kid was pretty good. Never needed a "load management" game off, either.

True dat.  Jordam could attack the rim at a much higher level.  At the same time Durant is a legit 6'11 with unlimited range.  He is an incredible pure shooter and can square up and fire from pretty much any spot on the floor. 

My take is (and I'm from Chi) that Durant in this era has a slight advantage with his range and size. I just think it's physically easier for him to get a quality look.  He's only had one season where he's taken more than 20 FGA's. 

The guy could average 50 is all I'm saying but maybe MJ could too in this era?  Combine their skills and we're looking at 70 ppg, 62%, 73% efg, and a barrage of buckets.  There would be no way to gameplan vs a player at that level.

[MU82]

True dat.  Jordam could attack the rim at a much higher level.  At the same time Durant is a legit 6'11 with unlimited range.  He is an incredible pure shooter and can square up and fire from pretty much any spot on the floor. 

My take is (and I'm from Chi) that Durant in this era has a slight advantage with his range and size. I just think it's physically easier for him to get a quality look.  He's only had one season where he's taken more than 20 FGA's. 

The guy could average 50 is all I'm saying but maybe MJ could too in this era?  Combine their skills and we're looking at 70 ppg, 62%, 73% efg, and a barrage of buckets.  There would be no way to gameplan vs a player at that level.

Durant's a hell of a player. I'm not gonna tear him down to make the case for Michael or anyone else. I respect the way he lets a game come to him, and also that he has worked hard to become a good defensive player.

I will say that Jordan could easily average 40 with today's rules, and he was one of the best defensive players of his time. I'm also 100% certain he'd have made himself into a terrific 3-point shooter.

Couldn't have gone wrong with either.

[MuggsyB]

Durant's a hell of a player. I'm not gonna tear him down to make the case for Michael or anyone else. I respect the way he lets a game come to him, and also that he has worked hard to become a good defensive player.

I will say that Jordan could easily average 40 with today's rules, and he was one of the best defensive players of his time. I'm also 100% certain he'd have made himself into a terrific 3-point shooter.

Couldn't have gone wrong with either.

I'm not saying Durant is better, he's not.  I'm specifically talking about scoring ability.  But I'm sure Jordan would have become a competent three point shooter.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Jordan's not scoring 40 in this era unless he really developed his outside shot.  This idea that players back then would dominate today's NBA is a lot of nostalgia and wishful thinking.  You have way more length and rim protection now than you did back then, and the advent of more zone type schemes means that the isolations that MJ used to feast on aren't going to happen.

As for Durant, I would take him over the likes of Larry Bird every day of the week.

[forgetful]

Jordan's not scoring 40 in this era unless he really developed his outside shot.  This idea that players back then would dominate today's NBA is a lot of nostalgia and wishful thinking.  You have way more length and rim protection now than you did back then, and the advent of more zone type schemes means that the isolations that MJ used to feast on aren't going to happen.

As for Durant, I would take him over the likes of Larry Bird every day of the week.

Most experts I've seen say 100% the opposite of what you state, and that the new rules would favor players like Jordan, specifically more freedom of movement, no hand checks, and less physicality allowed for on ball pressure. The idea of "more rim protection" now is a joke.

Regarding best pure scorers of all time, I was thinking about this recently. Two who are definitely at the top are:

Jordan
Kobe

They were two players who when they wanted to, were unstoppable. When Jordan was pissed, he'd put up 30+ in a half despite double teams just to prove a point.

Kobe was similar, just go look at his 81 point game.

Others I'd throw on a similar list, Bird and Curry. Both when they wanted to could basically put up as many points as they wanted. Bird put up 47 playing left handed just to prove a point.

Obviously there are others on the list too, these are just ones that really stand out to me of having this switch, that when they wanted to dominate, were unstoppable.

Durant is a great player and scorer, and he is up there on the list, but he's not at the top and not sure where I'd ultimately put him.

[JWags85]

With all respect to MJ, Im as big of an MJ fan as you can be, and the sheer force of will that was Kobe, Durant is just an alien.  He's literally the kind of player you'd create in NBA2K with all sliders unlocked.  He's arguably a top 10 shooter of all time, plus he's basically 7 feet tall.  He can get you off the dribble, he can go to the rim aggressively, he has unlimited range, he's unbelievably unique.

MJ and Kobe had craftiness, Durant doesn't have as much because he doesn't need it.  He can rise above basically anyone and has enough quickness and handle to blow by you if you get chest to chest with him.

I'm not silly enough to say Bird wouldn't be as successful in the current era, but I do wonder how much his lack of athleticism would hurt him.  When I watch his highlight packages, beyond his skill and creativity, I'm always struck by the almost loping speed and nature of some of his drives and moves.  He'd adapt obviously, but I think he'd need more of the crafty old man YMCA game that Jokic plays with.

[MuggsyB]

As far as Kobe over Durant as a scorer I don't really see it. Especially from a consistency and efficiency standpoint.  Now when Kobe got hot there was nobody quite like him.  He could explode and make shots with guys draped all over him unlike anyone else.  At the same time you might want to look at Kevin Durant's career stats. 

The thing with Durant, unlike other scorers, is it literally looks effortless.  He can elevate and shoot and it's like Cancel Christmas.  He also is very skilled creating off the dribble and of course can spot up and splash nets.  He cannot attack and get to the line like Kobe or MJ, but you very rarely watch him and think that was a bad shot.  I think some of you are underestimating his advantage to get a quality look at will with zero strain whatsoever.

[MU82]

During most of Jordan's career, defenders were allowed to stiff-arm, grab and body the guys they guarded ... and Jordan still had seasons in which he averaged 37, 35, 34, 33, etc. To suggest that in this much-less-physical era, when teams average 110 points and freedom of movement is relatively easy, Jordan wouldn't have been even more unstoppable ... that seems kind of silly.

I mean, DeRozan averages 27 basically as MJ Lite. I think MJ Classic would have added at least 10 points to that.

Jordan's career 3-point pct was 33%. He shot 35.6% in the playoffs during the championship era. During the 1995-96 season, he shot 43%. And he did that all without him ever making it a point of emphasis. I can't believe folks think he couldn't have been an upper-30s-percent shooter from behind the arc. Kemba Walker was a lousy 3-point shooter, made the arc a point of emphasis, and has been a 38% 3-point shooter since the start of the 2015-16 season. But Jordan couldn't have improved by 5%? Really?

I'm not saying he'd automatically be a 40% distance shooter. He wouldn't need to be. Among those who are sub-40s career 3-point shooters: Durant, Doncic, Booker, Irving, Tatum, George, DeRozan, Leonard, etc, etc, etc. Doncic's 3-point percentage is a tick lower than MJ's was during his 13 years with the Bulls.

As for Bird, he'd probably be one of the half-dozen best 3-point shooters in the league now and a perennial All-Star. He's a taller, more talented Doncic. I'm not saying he'd "dominate." I'm saying he'd be a max-contract superstar and deserving every penny.

Again, I'm not gonna say anything bad about Durant because there's no need to. Of Durant and MJ, one is an incredible player, the other is the best ever.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

MJ was the best of his era. I would also argue that compared to all the best players of the different eras, Jordan was the most dominant in his era by a significant margin.

That's all I'm really comfortable saying definitively. Comparing players between eras just doesn't work. Game is too different. There is no way to know how or if Jordan would have adjusted in today's game. And while the game is less physical than his era, the athletes in the modern era are bigger, faster, and stronger than they were in Jordan's era and the coaches understand the game better.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Here’s the difference between MJ and everyone else.

Physically, Durant was built to score a basketball. Tall, quick, long wing span and can shoot the ball really well.

The thing that made Jordan, Jordan was his ability to flip a switch in his head and be, well, MJ. I can’t think of a single player that has had the ability to kick it up to another gear where they are untouchable.

[PGsHeroes32]

Most experts I've seen say 100% the opposite of what you state, and that the new rules would favor players like Jordan, specifically more freedom of movement, no hand checks, and less physicality allowed for on ball pressure. The idea of "more rim protection" now is a joke.

Regarding best pure scorers of all time, I was thinking about this recently. Two who are definitely at the top are:

Jordan
Kobe

They were two players who when they wanted to, were unstoppable. When Jordan was pissed, he'd put up 30+ in a half despite double teams just to prove a point.

Kobe was similar, just go look at his 81 point game.

Others I'd throw on a similar list, Bird and Curry. Both when they wanted to could basically put up as many points as they wanted. Bird put up 47 playing left handed just to prove a point.

Obviously there are others on the list too, these are just ones that really stand out to me of having this switch, that when they wanted to dominate, were unstoppable.

Durant is a great player and scorer, and he is up there on the list, but he's not at the top and not sure where I'd ultimately put him.

Dude

Durant is a far more dominant scorer than Kobe.

Kobe wasn’t even a great outside shooter. Durant is along with having the size to score any way possible in the paint.

[MuggsyB]

My top 20 all-time players in no particular order:

Jordan
Jabbar
Lebron
Duncan
Bird
Durant
Magic
Wilt
Oscar
Curry
Baylor
Bryant
West
Russell
Shaq
Moses
Hakeem
Nowitzki or Wade
Isiah
Antetokounmpo

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

MJ was the best of his era. I would also argue that compared to all the best players of the different eras, Jordan was the most dominant in his era by a significant margin.

That's all I'm really comfortable saying definitively. Comparing players between eras just doesn't work. Game is too different. There is no way to know how or if Jordan would have adjusted in today's game. And while the game is less physical than his era, the athletes in the modern era are bigger, faster, and stronger than they were in Jordan's era and the coaches understand the game better.

Yep. Too many comments here about past players are based on legend more than reality.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Others I'd throw on a similar list, Bird and Curry. Both when they wanted to could basically put up as many points as they wanted. Bird put up 47 playing left handed just to prove a point.

Yet Bird only was top 20 in FG% once in his career.  Again, a lot of legendary statements that don't match up with reality.

[MU82]

MJ was the best of his era. I would also argue that compared to all the best players of the different eras, Jordan was the most dominant in his era by a significant margin.

That's all I'm really comfortable saying definitively. Comparing players between eras just doesn't work. Game is too different. There is no way to know how or if Jordan would have adjusted in today's game. And while the game is less physical than his era, the athletes in the modern era are bigger, faster, and stronger than they were in Jordan's era and the coaches understand the game better.

I have absolutely no doubt that Jordan in his prime would be the best player now.

[JWags85]

I have absolutely no doubt that Jordan in his prime would be the best player now.

James Harden is a 6 time All-NBA first team and won an MVP.  MJ is similar in size, much more athletic, and had way more of sociopathic will, more like NEED, to win.  Harden isn't Curry, but he's a career 35-36% shooter from deep and is thought of as dangerous from behind the arc.  MJ was a career 33% 3P shooter.  He would be just fine in that regard.  I have no doubt MJ could guard to the level of an Jrue Holiday, Eric Bledsoe, Danny Green, Klay Thompson, or other guards that were 1st or 2nd team All Defense in the last few years.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I have absolutely no doubt that Jordan in his prime would be the best player now.

He might be.  He might just be one of the best.  But that's not the take you originally had.

I will say that Jordan could easily average 40 with today's rules,

This is a ridiculous statement.  The only time Jordan even came close to this was early in his career when he had no one else around him in 1987-88 and 88-89.  And those weren't the lock down defensive years of the 1990s - the average PPG for an NBA game was just under what it is now.  And FG% was higher.

1980s NBA was hardly the defensive masterpiece you are making it out to be. 

That Jordan kid was pretty good. Never needed a "load management" game off, either.

So very meatbally.