Ability to attend games in-person next season

[GooooMarquette]

So lets just give up all of our privacy then. I dont get this "it's already bad, so who cares" argument.

Give an inch, they take a mile and so on. We've gone from helping not overload our hospitals, to showing your vaccination papers to a bouncer. I'm fine with mandating it in schools and international travel once it's fully approved, but local bars and events? No.

To paraphrase: We know they track our information for BAD purposes, so we shouldn't let them track our information for GOOD purposes that promote public health.

[WolfganghisKhan]

To paraphrase: We know they track our information for BAD purposes, so we shouldn't let them track our information for GOOD purposes that promote public health.

I'm sure trusting corporations on subjective measures has never proven to go bad in the long run.

[jficke13]

Edited above: I'm fine with mandating it in schools and international travel once it's fully approved, but showing it every time I go to local bars and events? No.

What if your local bar and event space doesn't want to let unvaccinated people put their staff and other patrons at risk? Why do public health considerations give a school more rights regarding controlling knowledge of vaccine status than a private bar has?

(edited to fix a stray apostrophe)

[WolfganghisKhan]

What if your local bar and event space doesn't want to let unvaccinated people put their staff and other patron's at risk? Why do public health considerations give a school more rights regarding controlling knowledge of vaccine status than a private bar has?

If the individual bar wants to do it, I'm fine with it. I'm against mandating it a requirement for all establishments. I just won't go there and support it.

[GooooMarquette]

I'm sure trusting corporations on subjective measures has never proven to go bad in the long run.

Good effort with the shiny objects.

But vaccination status is NOT a 'subjective measure.'

[jficke13]

If the individual bar wants to do it, I'm fine with it. I'm against mandating it a requirement for all establishments. I just won't go there and support it.

Cool, then why so much issue with providing those establishments with the means to make those decisions on their own?

[WolfganghisKhan]

Stop with the shiny objects.

Vaccination status is NOT a 'subjective measure.'

GOOD vs BAD is subjective. Which is what you said.

[WolfganghisKhan]

Cool, then why so much issue with providing those establishments with the means to make those decisions on their own?

It's an issue I feel strongly about. Just stating my side which I said I wouldn't do early, but I'm bored at work. You guys are clearly more comfortable sacrificing your privacy than I am. I also believe this is just going to cause more divide among the current sides and the last thing this country needs is more division.

[GooooMarquette]

GOOD vs BAD is subjective. Which is what you said.

And you already admitted tracking vaccination status is a good purpose when you said you'd be alright with airlines or your local bar tracking it.

So huge airline is ok. Local bar is ok. But anything in between (MU hoops) is not ok? Interesting logic.

[WolfganghisKhan]

And you already admitted tracking vaccination status is a good purpose when you said you'd be alright with airlines or your local bar tracking it.

So huge airline is ok. Local bar is ok. But anything in between (MU hoops) is not ok? Interesting logic.

I didn't mean airline. I meant if a foreign government requires it. Who owns the Fiserv Forum?

[jficke13]

I didn't mean airline. I meant if a foreign government requires it. Who owns the Fiserv Forum?

So it's okay if a government demands this information but not okay if a private entity does? Who, precisely, are you afraid of misusing your private information?

[WolfganghisKhan]

So it's okay if a government demands this information but not okay if a private entity does? Who, precisely, are you afraid of misusing your private information?

I have no control over what a foreign government can do, but I can affect my local government. I hope our legislation puts something into motion this year that prevents this.

The less private information out there the better.

[Hards Alumni]

It's an issue I feel strongly about. Just stating my side which I said I wouldn't do early, but I'm bored at work. You guys are clearly more comfortable sacrificing your privacy than I am. I also believe this is just going to cause more divide among the current sides and the last thing this country needs is more division.

Honestly, I agree with you about privacy.  I think we've given away far too much, and that it started with the Patriot act.

Having said that, I think a non-mandatory vaccine passport is a fine idea, and I agree that it should not be required for entry into private businesses.  It should be encouraged, but not required.  If you want to have a bar and you want to require it to enter, great, if not that knowledge should be available to anyone.

Personally, I'd be only going to businesses or events that required the passport.  And I *think* a lot of businesses that won't require such a passport would suffer financially as a result.

[Galway Eagle]

Head in the sand. Probably said this about the Patriot act too.

Well I was in 6th grade when the patriot act was put into place so if I recall correctly I said "hmm, interesting. can we watch Harry Potter now?"

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I have no control over what a foreign government can do, but I can affect my local government. I hope our legislation puts something into motion this year that prevents this.

The less private information out there the better.

Just ridiculous. Continuation of selfishness.

[WolfganghisKhan]

Honestly, I agree with you about privacy.  I think we've given away far too much, and that it started with the Patriot act.

Having said that, I think a non-mandatory vaccine passport is a fine idea, and I agree that it should not be required for entry into private businesses.  It should be encouraged, but not required.  If you want to have a bar and you want to require it to enter, great, if not that knowledge should be available to anyone.

Personally, I'd be only going to businesses or events that required the passport.  And I *think* a lot of businesses that won't require such a passport would suffer financially as a result.

Bolded, thank you!

Italicized, I'd disagree here based on all the lines I see outside of bars at 9pm. Vaccines basically have 100% success against serious COVID issues so I'd feel comfortable going anywhere.

[Coleman]

So by this rationale, anyone who had stage 2 cancer and died while having COVID shouldn't be counted as a COVID death, and oh nice...neither should anyone who is elderly since COVID has no link given their condition.  Interesting how when someone dies with COVID it counts as a COVID death even if they had several comorbidities, but when someone dies shortly after taking the vaccine, suddenly we need to move mountains to try to show that the vaccine was the primary cause.  Why isn't the same approach applied to both?  Also, the 2,000 number is something we'll probably disagree on trusting.  You may call Crowd unlucky.  It's possible it's all vastly underreported.  You can look up what's been reported on VAERS in terms of adverse reactions.  Last time I downloaded the data a few weeks ago it was 1,400 pages of reported issues (not all deaths to be clear).  We're not that far into people getting the vaccine and maybe it's just me but that's a lot of stuff reported, and is obviously not even including what hasn't been reported which who knows how much that is.

Look, I've tried to be courteous and simply explain my position.  Some of you have zero desire to rid all the divisiveness going on in the world and want to simply attack me, insist that I'm selfish, label me an anti-vaxer (for the record, I'm not an anti-vaxer...I'm anti THIS vaccine until there is more known about it), etc.  When I said earlier I wished the best for those who have received it, I meant it and still do.  I believe we are all in a crappy position and we should all start by respecting how crappy it is, and understand that we are all trying to navigate everything that is going on.  There is a lot of misinformation coming from ALL angles these days and it is difficult to sift through it.  I am not a fan of masks but I follow the rules, and if there are rules in place that say that I can't go to a sporting event until I get the vaccine, then I have a choice to make and I'm ok with that.  Wearing a mask and injecting something into my body that is permanent are two very different things though.

So if you really must know MY reasons, in addition to some that have already been stated, here you go:

It is under emergency use authorization (EUA).  To get this status they have to prove that NO other treatments are available.  However, doctors have been using Ivermectin, Hydroxycloroquine, vitamin D, vitamin C, zinc, quercetin, ozone therapy, etc. with success.  This is why the censorship is so harsh against any doctors who try to talk about other treatments.  They lose the EUA if there are other therapies.  Think of all the people that go into the hospital and survive COVID, they are being treated.

To get to the 95% effective rate they use relative risk instead of absolute risk.  This website explains it: https://www.healthnewsreview.org/toolkit/tips-for-understanding-studies/ absolute-vs-relative-risk/
If drug manufactures used absolute risk, no one would take their drugs.  It is really common for them to report relative risk, which is basically not significant when it comes to scientific methods.

There are no studies saying the vaccine will prevent COVID or transmission.

We have no idea the side effects of this injection, both short term and long term.

There are ingredients in the injection that have not been proven safe for human use.  There are also ingredients in a proprietary blend in the vaccines that are not being disclosed.  Polyethylene Glycol (PEG) in the mRNA vaccines is known to cause anaphylactic reactions, yet they put it in there.

Over 90% of the people dying from COVID have 4+ comorbidities.

The PCR test is completely flawed.  When else have we ever used PCR to diagnose a virus?  Look into the cycle count, it should be <35 and ideally <25 for accurate results, otherwise you are looking at debris and other dead viral particles that cannot be isolated.

There are no double blind randomized controlled clinical trials, the gold standard of research.  All the studies so far have been conducted by the drug manufacturers so there is bias.  No animal studies have been done either and I am not sure if there are any currently being done.

Does the survival rate of 99.6% for those <70 justify me getting this injection?

New research is emerging that it is probable the mRNA can reverse transcribe into our DNA under the right conditions.

No products with the primary ingredient mRNA have ever been FDA approved.

It affects both the innate and adaptive immune system.  Vaccines are given to stimulate the adaptive system so we really don’t know the effects this will have on our innate system, which is our first line of defense.

Vaccine manufactures are not held liable for any adverse reactions.

If some of you want to continue to throw hate & shade my way, so be it.  Like with any major life decision, I am simply trying to make the most informed decision possible.  I'm not just some "tin foil idiot" or whatever word of the day MU82 likes to use from atop his righteous throne.  Maybe we can all learn to respect each other and understand that navigating this is challenging, and if that means I have to follow certain rules until I decide to get the vaccine or until I essentially wait it out, so be it.  Pardon me for not wanting to jump in line for a vaccine that is unlike any other ever developed.  Peace.

[WolfganghisKhan]

Just ridiculous. Continuation of selfishness.

Ah when someone else disagrees, just attack them. Signs of a strong argument.

[GooooMarquette]

I have no control over what a foreign government can do, but I can affect my local government. I hope our legislation puts something into motion this year that prevents this.

The less private information out there the better.

You also said you're OK with schools using it, again acknowledging that tracking vaccine status for public health purposes is a GOOD purpose.

So why allow some entities to require it for public health purposes, but not others.

[WolfganghisKhan]

You also said you're OK with schools using it, again acknowledging that tracking vaccine status for public health purposes is a GOOD purpose.

So why allow some entities to require it for public health purposes, but not others.

Can I show my paper card to one random school administrator and never have to show it again to anyone else? If so, we might have a compromise.

[GooooMarquette]

Can I show my paper card to one random school administrator and never have to show it again to anyone else? If so, we might have a compromise.

That wasn't what you said above. You said "I'm fine with mandating it in schools." No limitation to 'one random school administrator'....because that isn't how it works in schools.

Edited above: I'm fine with mandating it in schools and international travel once it's fully approved, but showing it every time I go to local bars and events? No.

Now you're backtracking.

[WolfganghisKhan]

That wasn't what you said above. You said "I'm fine with mandating it in schools."

Now you're backtracking.

No I'm not.

In the end of the day, I hope that I don't have to worry about this and our legislation passes something preventing this.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2021/04/01/two-gop-lawmakers-seek-bar-vaccine-passports-wisconsin/4840575001/

Looks like it's already been started.

[GooooMarquette]

No I'm not.

You were OK with mandating it in schools. That means providing documentation, which then goes into a permanent record.

Now you just want to show it to 'one random school administrator.'

Backtracking.

[Hards Alumni]

Look, I think what brother Wolf is getting at is that if you have to show your device or whatever the passport ends up being that has the ability for the government to be able to track your movements, your habits, etc.  And remember, you're volunteering to give this information.  It's one thing to have a corporation tracking where you are and what you're buying, etc... but it is entirely different when the government is involved.  Who is to say how they will use this new surveillance tool?  You're volunteering your location to them anytime that passport is scanned.  That information could be used in court to determine where you were and could make you a suspect in a crime you had nothing to do with.  The last thing we need in this country is more warrant-less tracking.

Now, having said all of that, the government can basically already track what anyone does.  But we need to make sure that the way they do that is legal.  The moment you volunteer that information all bets are off.

[WolfganghisKhan]

Look, I think what brother Wolf is getting at is that if you have to show your device or whatever the passport ends up being that has the ability for the government to be able to track your movements, your habits, etc.  And remember, you're volunteering to give this information.  It's one thing to have a corporation tracking where you are and what you're buying, etc... but it is entirely different when the government is involved.  Who is to say how they will use this new surveillance tool?  You're volunteering your location to them anytime that passport is scanned.  That information could be used in court to determine where you were and could make you a suspect in a crime you had nothing to do with.  The last thing we need in this country is more warrant-less tracking.

Now, having said all of that, the government can basically already track what anyone does.  But we need to make sure that the way they do that is legal.  The moment you volunteer that information all bets are off.

"Americans should not have to trade their privacy at the expense of public health needs" - Senators last April.

Bob Menendez, D-New Jersey, Richard Blumenthal, D-Connecticut, Kamala Harris, D-California, and Cory Booker, D-New Jersey