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Author Topic: Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?  (Read 83498 times)

MuggsyB

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Re: Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?
« Reply #1050 on: October 02, 2021, 06:49:36 PM »
I wish for an equal opportunity society as well. If I could Hurl like Joe Canning and box like Canelo and bagpipe like Gordon Duncan I'd have reached my peak. But pipe dreams aside would you say that the concept of "deprecate but equal back in the Jim Crow days was not actually equal? If yes I have a lovely plot of sand for you to stick your head into. If no then when (date or generation) would you say that black individuals should have made up all the ground that they lost since they started behind white folk in building generational wealth, educational opportunity, etc? And given that if both sides worked at equal paces since then they'd still be behind, then what is the issue with acknowledging that the lack of equity keeps at least a decent few of them back?

No.  I'm not comparing today to the days of Jim Crow nor do I believe things were rosy back then and we didn't have racist constructs in our society.  I don't think the "lack of equity" narrative in 2021 or telling any group of people they are victims helps them succeed nor does it take into account a myriad of other reasons why they are struggling.  And Robin DiAngelo telling whites they are racists and blacks that the system is rigged isn't helpful at all imo.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 06:53:10 PM by MuggsyB »

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?
« Reply #1051 on: October 02, 2021, 09:48:48 PM »
  And Robin DiAngelo telling whites they are racists

You can keep repeating this Muggsy but it doesn't make it true.

Our lack of economic equality has far more to do with class and educational opportunities as well as one's parenting advantages or disadvantages.  I don't subscribe to the view that every construct of the USA is rigged against those that aren't white in 2021.  I think that's belittling and extremely offensive, especially to non-whites.  Again, even if you accept this as a fact it doesn't change how we are going to solve these problems or help people that are struggling for whatever reason on their path to autonomy, being a solid citizen, and a life of happiness and fulfillment.  I'm sick of the polarization of this country in general.

I don't think anyone is arguing that systemic racism is the only reason there is a lack of economic opportunity. But it is a reason. Can you agree with that much?
TAMU

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MuggsyB

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Re: Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?
« Reply #1052 on: October 02, 2021, 10:10:20 PM »
You can keep repeating this Muggsy but it doesn't make it true.

I don't think anyone is arguing that systemic racism is the only reason there is a lack of economic opportunity. But it is a reason. Can you agree with that much?

Yes to your last sentence.  But it's cleanly the primary focus and not particularly useful when it comes to solutions right now.   No one ostensibly is saying racism, whether you think it's entreched in our system or not, is the only reason .  However, other factors are not being discussed in conjunction with racism.   

MU82

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Re: Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?
« Reply #1053 on: October 02, 2021, 10:52:08 PM »
No.  I'm not comparing today to the days of Jim Crow nor do I believe things were rosy back then and we didn't have racist constructs in our society.  I don't think the "lack of equity" narrative in 2021 or telling any group of people they are victims helps them succeed nor does it take into account a myriad of other reasons why they are struggling.  And Robin DiAngelo telling whites they are racists and blacks that the system is rigged isn't helpful at all imo.

Except that the system IS rigged.

Hence the term SYSTEMic racism.

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Galway Eagle

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Re: Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?
« Reply #1054 on: October 03, 2021, 01:49:15 AM »
No.  I'm not comparing today to the days of Jim Crow nor do I believe things were rosy back then and we didn't have racist constructs in our society.  I don't think the "lack of equity" narrative in 2021 or telling any group of people they are victims helps them succeed nor does it take into account a myriad of other reasons why they are struggling.  And Robin DiAngelo telling whites they are racists and blacks that the system is rigged isn't helpful at all imo.

So I don't think telling people they are victims is right so I 100% agree with you there. However, I do think honest history explaining that, in general, at the same point in time White people had a head start and thus generationally are more advantaged is a fair thing to teach.

You've said your moms from Ulster, in Derry public schools, if they ignored the voting oppression, farming taxes, similar redlining, and other issues against Catholics/Irish for years and simply looked at the issue as "Catholics aren't as successful as Protestants" I'd imagine you'd be upset. Am I correct?

If Yes: then why is it you cannot see a comparable situation to the circumstance of how starting at a disadvantaged point for various minorities should be taught?

If No: Then I give you props for holding true to an ideal that public education should be profoundly nationalistic but I sincerely disagree and believe that any country with egg on its face should acknowledge it. More advanced discussion of CRT can happen in higher learning but at the HS and middle school level there's nothing wrong with saying "yeah we're not perfect we've oppressed X, Y, Z, and certain groups were given a head start.
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MU82

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Re: Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?
« Reply #1055 on: October 03, 2021, 08:21:13 AM »
CRT simply isn't taught in middle school. Period. Anybody who thinks it is has no idea what CRT is.

Here in NC, there is a movement from the legislature to eliminate just about all  discussion of race in high school and middle school They like it the way it is now, where slavery is discussed for a week (if that) during Black History Month as "it was bad, but the country has gotten past that and everything's great now. We even had a Black president!" Any time there is a discussion of today's racial issues, legislators shout: "Critical Race Theory!" It's a good way to divide and conquer, and to keep (and maybe even expand) the base.
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MuggsyB

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Re: Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?
« Reply #1056 on: October 03, 2021, 11:10:09 AM »
So I don't think telling people they are victims is right so I 100% agree with you there. However, I do think honest history explaining that, in general, at the same point in time White people had a head start and thus generationally are more advantaged is a fair thing to teach.

You've said your moms from Ulster, in Derry public schools, if they ignored the voting oppression, farming taxes, similar redlining, and other issues against Catholics/Irish for years and simply looked at the issue as "Catholics aren't as successful as Protestants" I'd imagine you'd be upset. Am I correct?

If Yes: then why is it you cannot see a comparable situation to the circumstance of how starting at a disadvantaged point for various minorities should be taught?

If No: Then I give you props for holding true to an ideal that public education should be profoundly nationalistic but I sincerely disagree and believe that any country with egg on its face should acknowledge it. More advanced discussion of CRT can happen in higher learning but at the HS and middle school level there's nothing wrong with saying "yeah we're not perfect we've oppressed X, Y, Z, and certain groups were given a head start.

I disagree with the "whites have had the upper hand" as a purposeful narrative for teaching our black and minority children.  Once again "whites" are not a monolith.  Teaching that affluent kids have the upper hand makes a lot more sense if that's the road you want to go but I don't think that's fair either.  I would never teach a child they will have trouble succeeding based on any of these factors.

I lost my dad when I was seven Galway.  Should have my teachers told me I'm behind the other children in my class because of my emotional trauma?  Should they tell the countless black kids who deal with things one million times worse they can't succeed because of a, b, c, d, or e?  How is this helpful at all? 

All sorts of people regardless of race have advantages or as you say a "head start".  But you are correct, black citizens have had the most difficult struggle. It's vitally important to teach the horrors of slavery, Jim Crow, the Civil Rights movement, along with many other ignominious and tragic events.  No one  disputes that slavery was the single lowest point of our history and discrimination and prejudice imbrues our national character to this day. 

If these discussions are not happening in our schools they absolutely should be.  However, this is far different than teaching that every construct of our system, in 2021 is racist and imposed on black citizens to keep them down and inferior to whites. 

If a math professor is fired because he won't grade black students on a separate curve we have a serious problem Galway.  It's beyond insulting and demeaning and quite frankly wrong.  Our concern should be getting black students to much higher levels in reading and math starting in Elementary school.  Instead, changing testing and other demeaning measures are always bandied about.  I used to tutor mostly young black kids in Chicago for years and they did as well or better than white kids.  The sad truth is many don't get the neccessary repetition and reinforcement because of a myriad of other reasons.

As far as my mom and her Ulster upbringing she was raised in Donegal which was a much different education than Derry in Northern Ireland.  But to your point women didn't have a right to vote in Northern Ireland until 1972.  When it came to "The Troubles" and Irish history she would describe her education as pro-Irish of course but she had comprehensive understanding of the conflict from both sides.  There was a far greater emphasis on Irish history than political and social issues just NEast of her.    Sorry for the dissertation Galway but that's kind of how my brain works.  Take care.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2021, 11:34:03 AM by MuggsyB »

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?
« Reply #1057 on: October 03, 2021, 11:18:33 AM »
I disagree with the "whites have had the upper hand" as a purposeful narrative for teaching our black and minority children.  Once again "whites" are not a monolith.  Teaching that affluent kids have the upper hand makes a lot more sense if that's the road you want to go but I don't think that's fair either.  I would never teach a child they will have trouble succeeding based on any of these factors.

I lost my dad when I was seven Galway.  Should have my teachers told me I'm behind the other children in my class because of my emotional trauma?  Should they tell the countless black kids who deal with things one million times worse they can't succeed because of a, b, c, d, or e?  How is this helpful at all? 

All sorts of people regardless of race have advantages or as you say a "head start".  But you are correct, black citizens have had the most difficult struggle. It's vitally important to teach the horrors of slavery, Jim Crow, the Civil Rights movement, along with many other ignominious and tragic events.  No one  disputes that slavery was the single lowest point of our history and discrimination and prejudice imprues our national character to this day. 

If these discussions are not happening in our schools they absolutely should be.  However, this is far different than teaching that every construct of our system, in 2021 is racist and imposed on black citizens to keep them down and inferior to whites. 

If a math professor is fired because he won't grade black students on a separate curve we have a serious problem Galway.  It's beyond insulting and demeaning and quite frankly wrong.  Our concern should be getting black students to much higher levels in reading and math starting in Elementary school.  Instead, changing testing and other demeaning measures are always bandied about.  I used to tutor mostly young black kids in Chicago for years and they did as well or better than white kids.  The sad truth is many don't get the neccessary repetition and reinforcement because of a myriad of other reasons.

As far as my mom and her Ulster upbringing she was raised in Donegal which was a much different education than Derry in Northern Ireland.  But to your point women didn't have a right to vote in Northern Ireland until 1972.  When it came to "The Troubles" and Irish history she would describe her education as pro-Irish of course but she had comprehensive understanding of the conflict from both sides.  There was a far greater emphasis on Irish history than political and social issues just NEast of her.    Sorry for the dissertation Galway but that's kind of how my brain works.  Take care.


I can’t believe you still don’t get it.
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Jockey

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Re: Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?
« Reply #1058 on: October 03, 2021, 12:44:35 PM »

I can’t believe you still don’t get it.

How someone can compare losing a parent to  400 years of discrimination is stunning.

Well, I guess when you consider that he supports a hard core white supremacist, it isn’t stunning at all.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2021, 12:46:22 PM by Jockey »

21Jumpstreet

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Re: Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?
« Reply #1059 on: October 03, 2021, 03:28:58 PM »
The sad truth is many don't get the neccessary repetition and reinforcement because of a myriad of other reasons.

Precisely

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?
« Reply #1060 on: October 03, 2021, 03:36:37 PM »
I disagree with the "whites have had the upper hand" as a purposeful narrative for teaching our black and minority children.  Once again "whites" are not a monolith.  Teaching that affluent kids have the upper hand makes a lot more sense if that's the road you want to go but I don't think that's fair either.  I would never teach a child they will have trouble succeeding based on any of these factors.

I lost my dad when I was seven Galway.  Should have my teachers told me I'm behind the other children in my class because of my emotional trauma?  Should they tell the countless black kids who deal with things one million times worse they can't succeed because of a, b, c, d, or e?  How is this helpful at all? 

All sorts of people regardless of race have advantages or as you say a "head start".  But you are correct, black citizens have had the most difficult struggle. It's vitally important to teach the horrors of slavery, Jim Crow, the Civil Rights movement, along with many other ignominious and tragic events.  No one  disputes that slavery was the single lowest point of our history and discrimination and prejudice imbrues our national character to this day. 

If these discussions are not happening in our schools they absolutely should be.  However, this is far different than teaching that every construct of our system, in 2021 is racist and imposed on black citizens to keep them down and inferior to whites. 

If a math professor is fired because he won't grade black students on a separate curve we have a serious problem Galway.  It's beyond insulting and demeaning and quite frankly wrong.  Our concern should be getting black students to much higher levels in reading and math starting in Elementary school.  Instead, changing testing and other demeaning measures are always bandied about.  I used to tutor mostly young black kids in Chicago for years and they did as well or better than white kids.  The sad truth is many don't get the neccessary repetition and reinforcement because of a myriad of other reasons.

As far as my mom and her Ulster upbringing she was raised in Donegal which was a much different education than Derry in Northern Ireland.  But to your point women didn't have a right to vote in Northern Ireland until 1972.  When it came to "The Troubles" and Irish history she would describe her education as pro-Irish of course but she had comprehensive understanding of the conflict from both sides.  There was a far greater emphasis on Irish history than political and social issues just NEast of her.    Sorry for the dissertation Galway but that's kind of how my brain works.  Take care.

Muggsy, you should go into the scarecrow business. There is a lot of a strawmen arguments here that no one anywhere is making. No one is telling Black kids that they can't succeed. No one is saying whites are "monolith" as you have repeatedly claimed. No one is saying all systems are racist. No one is saying that systemic racism is the only problem facing minority communities.

You say that you recognize that systemic racism exists. You say in this post that you recognize that the Black community face the most difficult struggle. But your message seems to be that we should just stop talking about it and deal with it. I just don't see things getting better with that approach.
TAMU

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MU82

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Re: Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?
« Reply #1061 on: October 03, 2021, 07:33:40 PM »

If these discussions are not happening in our schools they absolutely should be.  However, this is far different than teaching that every construct of our system, in 2021 is racist and imposed on black citizens to keep them down and inferior to whites


Well then you should be happy, Muggs. Because nobody is teaching those things in high school, middle school or elementary school. And if (big if) any major universities are teaching it, it would be as part of an elective course that no student would be required to take.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

MU82

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Billy Hoyle

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Re: Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?
« Reply #1063 on: October 04, 2021, 02:50:25 PM »
Thank God. An 11 months long campaign of racist terror against Black citizens outside of Atlanta has finally ended with the apprehension of the suspect. It may have been the same person involved in the racist incidents at Albion College, Air Force Academy Prep, Hopwell Baptist, White Bear Lake HS, Smith College, Viterbo College, Oberlein College, St. Olaf College, etc. Anyone seen Jussie Smollett recently?


The first notes were received Dec. 21, 2020. Other notes were received Feb. 17, Feb. 22, March 1 and March 3. After a 6-month absence, a final note was received Sept. 6.

https://www.cbs46.com/news/black-woman-in-douglasville-accused-of-pretending-to-be-white-man-threatening-neighbors/article_4ccc0a7a-216c-11ec-bdef-3bd5aa74a0ef.html
“You either smoke or you get smoked. And you got smoked.”


MU82

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Re: Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?
« Reply #1065 on: October 04, 2021, 04:19:25 PM »
Thank God. An 11 months long campaign of racist terror against Black citizens outside of Atlanta has finally ended with the apprehension of the suspect. It may have been the same person involved in the racist incidents at Albion College, Air Force Academy Prep, Hopwell Baptist, White Bear Lake HS, Smith College, Viterbo College, Oberlein College, St. Olaf College, etc. Anyone seen Jussie Smollett recently?


The first notes were received Dec. 21, 2020. Other notes were received Feb. 17, Feb. 22, March 1 and March 3. After a 6-month absence, a final note was received Sept. 6.

https://www.cbs46.com/news/black-woman-in-douglasville-accused-of-pretending-to-be-white-man-threatening-neighbors/article_4ccc0a7a-216c-11ec-bdef-3bd5aa74a0ef.html

This is bad.

It's also a rarity, as opposed to the actual racism and white supremacy that goes on in our country every day, and it doesn't prove what you'd love it to prove.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

MU82

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Re: Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?
« Reply #1066 on: October 08, 2021, 04:10:46 PM »
Students of color, led by Asians, protest the ridiculous suspension of a Black principal in a mostly white community who was unfairly accused of promoting Critical Race Theory.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/interactive/2021/texas-teens-whitfield-critical-race-theory/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F34ea64b%2F616065ce9d2fda9d4103d11d%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F8%2F72%2F616065ce9d2fda9d4103d11d

The article includes this:

... A White man named Stetson Clark spoke at a board meeting in late July ... several weeks after he unsuccessfully ran for a seat on the school board — to accuse Whitfield of promoting critical race theory. As evidence, Clark pointed to Whitfield’s social media activity and to a letter the principal sent out shortly after Floyd’s killing, in which Whitfield wrote that systemic racism was “alive and well” and asked students and parents to “commit to being an anti-racist.” Clark, cheered by the audience, demanded that the board fire Whitfield.

Typical of an idiot who has no idea what CRT is.

Systemic racist IS alive and well, as demonstrated by this case.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

Galway Eagle

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Re: Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?
« Reply #1067 on: October 08, 2021, 04:39:20 PM »
Students of color, led by Asians, protest the ridiculous suspension of a Black principal in a mostly white community who was unfairly accused of promoting Critical Race Theory.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/interactive/2021/texas-teens-whitfield-critical-race-theory/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F34ea64b%2F616065ce9d2fda9d4103d11d%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F8%2F72%2F616065ce9d2fda9d4103d11d

The article includes this:

... A White man named Stetson Clark spoke at a board meeting in late July ... several weeks after he unsuccessfully ran for a seat on the school board — to accuse Whitfield of promoting critical race theory. As evidence, Clark pointed to Whitfield’s social media activity and to a letter the principal sent out shortly after Floyd’s killing, in which Whitfield wrote that systemic racism was “alive and well” and asked students and parents to “commit to being an anti-racist.” Clark, cheered by the audience, demanded that the board fire Whitfield.

Typical of an idiot who has no idea what CRT is.

Systemic racist IS alive and well, as demonstrated by this case.

It's not racist to not want to commit to being anti racist duh!
Maigh Eo for Sam

 

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